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Hello!  My name is Jason and I am 25 years old.  I'm from Baltimore, MD.  Here is my problem with this entire subject:

Yes, I have had SP and lucid dreams.  I've gone through the paralysis, buzzing ring that spreads through the body, etc. etc.  However, why must people attribute these things to something paranormal?  This is merely the brain going through various processes and some parts shutting off for the night while others remain active.

OBE's, in my humble opinion, are interesting experiences, but not proof that we have a soul or survive death.  

Furthermore, there are other comments in here that are just completely nuts.  For instance, someone gave advice about how to avoid "negative spirits" on the lower planes.  This isn't Dungeons and Dragons.  I'm sorry, but I just have a very difficult time understanding how people invent these aspects of their reality.  

I'm sure many of you will have comments to this, but I am just extremely skeptical of the validity of OBEs -- not that they can't happen, but the interpretation of what is happening.  OBEs are merely brain processes, nothing more and nothing less.

Your thoughts are always welcome.  Have a great day!

aphie

To everyone,

My original intent was to separate fact from fiction with respect to OBEs.  Experiences in life can be objective and subjective.  I will give an example of each:

SUBJECTIVE Experience:

A room is 60 degrees F.  Someone comes in from a winter storm and says, "phew, this room is nice and warm!"  Another person comes into this room from a hot summer day and says, "phew, this room is nice and cool!"  Well, which is it?

Whatever the room "feels" like is from perception of past experience.  In other words, if you are cold, the room will feel warm and vice-versa.  Each experience is a correct one given the circumstances for each person.

OBJECTIVE Experience:

Objectivity is based on absolutes.  If a scientist were asked to record the temperature of the room, he would state that it is 60 F.  If asked if the room was cold or hot, he could only state what was absolute -- the temperature of the room.  

Most things in our life, if not nearly all things, are subjective experiences.  Pleasure feels much more powerful when it follows pain.  We as humans live our lives in variations of absolutes that cannot be quantitative.  In other words, we cannot put a specific measurement on subjective experiences.  If I asked you, "How happy do you feel right now," you could state you are very happy or somewhat happy.  If I pressed for an exact measurement, you could not give me one because it is subjective.

We as people are merely a collection of our past experiences -- some of these experiences happened at extremely young ages and helped to shape us in ways we cannot fully comprehend.  We are, in essence, our experiences.  Our memories, passions, goals, dreams and commitments are based on past experiences that have shaped our personality.

This debate about "god / afterlife / meaning of life" has dragged on since the beginning of time -- yet, we are no closer today to solving these ultimate questions than we were back then.  

I think it is important for humans to embrace religion and other beliefs to help them get through life.  If life is merely just a random fluke where no meaning exists in our life, I think people would be heart-broken.  People want to believe in a greater power -- people want to believe in the eternal -- most importantly, people want to believe in purpose and meaning to their life.

However, at the same time, one cannot ignore the evil that lurks in human nature.  Take for instance the five year old girl who was kidnapped, raped and killed.  What kind of a person does this?  Does he have a soul?  We would like to hate him because he represents the darker aspects of our own humanity.  However, do not be mistaken that his traits do not exist within all of us at a core level.  I'm sure everyone on this board has, at one time or another, come close to a breaking point from hatred, anger, rejection or depression.  

What sets us apart from people like him is that we temper our emotions with the collective wisdom we accumulate from experience.  I have always been an idealist and I always try to view the positive aspects of humanity.  If I see a homeless man, I can only help but to stop and imagine what it must be to live his life.  When September 11'th occurred, I couldn't help but to stop and think what it must have been like to stand at the ledge of the window with my back on fire and no other alternative but to jump.  

I have meant many challenges in my own life and, even at the age of 25, I could have never dreamed as a kid how difficult life can be.  As an adult we are allotted freedoms that we don't enjoy as a kid, but with those freedoms come immense responsibilities.  I have learned that, even in relationships, everything comes down to experiences, instincts and patience.  Just recently I broke up with someone that I really loved and that tore me apart inside.  However, that pain only helps me grow as a person and with that pain, I will become a stronger individual in new relationships.

I do not deny that their are things in this reality that may go beyond our science.  This may just be from the shortcomings of our present science or the fact that these things exist outside of logic.  It would be illogical to necessarily assume that the physical universe must operate on constant laws, even though we are taught that in physics.

Now, ahem ...  Getting back to OBEs.  I have had many experiences with OBEs.  I don't talk to most people about it because, in this culture, many people who speak of these things would not be taken seriously or possibly considered a freak.  Worse, they may be considered emotionally unstable or suffering from a mental condition.  That is why I choose to keep my experiences to myself and those closest to me.  

In all my experiences, I have never had any *proof* (in the normal sense of the word) that my experiences were real.  When I say "real," I think it is necessary to define real.  Real, as in this reality, is something that is verifiable by more than one person.  If I spray paint a wall and leave, you can later come by and see the writing on the wall.  Likewise, if I were to have an OBE and if I were also to consider it a *real* experience, I would argue that it must be verifiable in some way -- hence it was all just a dream.  

Many will say, "well I felt myself move around!"  In a lucid dream, you can vividly have all five senses working.  This doesn't constitute *proof*.  Now, if I were to "project," go down the street and read a license tag and then wake up and be able to verify this information, it would definitely lend some credence to my experience.

However, I have never heard or read of any OBE that signified that they were a true projection of the "soul" from the body.  And, to that regard, just what is the "soul."  Do any of you believe that the "soul" is eternal?  How do you account for the millions of new people each day?  Do these souls just get generated from somewhere else?  If souls are eternal, would they even have a beginning?  

The prospect of life meaning nothing and just being a long and drawn-out affair is not a "romantic philosophy."  This is most likely the reason why over 90% of the world is religious -- religion seems to be an innate human characteristic.  It doesn't matter who or what you believe, so long as you have some view of something greater than the "here and now."  

I've read many arguments from reputable sources in science journals that have shown that evolution is a straight-forth process and that we are merely animals.  Anyone who owns a dog or a cat understands they are capable of love and emotion, and basic intelligence.  They can be trained, just as humans are from past experiences.  Why are we so special when compared to every other living thing in this universe?  

We cannot delude ourselves, yet the need to seek out meaning is also very powerful and overwhelming.  I have seen 50% of everything in my life point to "this is just what it is" and the other half suggesting that there is something more.  I constantly find my logic pitted against my faith and emotions, and my idealism to want to accept a greater purpose.  

I have rambled on long enough.  Thanks for sharing everyone!

Jason

Patty,

No, not graduate school yet.  I took a break after high-school because I wanted to party some and travel.  I'm glad I waited because I'm taking school much more seriously than I would have when I was 18.  I have a 4.0 GPA going for me right now because of a lot of hard work.  

I am an economics major and plan to pursue it all the way up to the doctoral level.  I love numbers, statistics, economics, business, etc.  

My intention when I started this topic wasn't to cause any fights, but to see where other people come from and how they validate their thought processes.  

Someone posted a link to a site that had some interesting information about PSI.  It is rather lengthy, so it will take some time to read it all.

And yes, I'd say I can OBE about 75% of the time when I try.  Although I can get there, it is very hard to stay there.  It is definately a rather "weird" state of consciousness.

Why is the spell checker broken on this board, btw?



Jason

Ashfo,

The simple truth is this.  If OBEs *were* real and things such as ESP *was* actually true, wouldn't the rest of the world know about it as well?  There are over 5 billion people on this planet -- why are these subjects on the fringe of our society?  

Why don't we have sitcoms where Roseanne wakes up and talks about her latest OBE trip?  Why is all of this astral travel talk only found in the niche recesses of the internet?

Even if it was remotely true, many more scientists would devote more time to this field.  Why don't most scientists devote time to this field?  Well, because throughout time, no research as conclusively proved anything "paranormal."  There is simply nothing to back-up the claims that there is a paranormal co-existence to our everday reality.

People who cannot accept that are doing so for personal reasons -- perhaps they need to believe in it for whatever reason.  Hey, if it makes you feel better as a person, I'm all for it.  However, just because there are a few discussion boards on the internet that let people discuss their latest spiritual quest does not make it truth.  

People congagate to these places to reinforce their own beliefs by the beliefs of others -- which in themselves have no foundation in proof.  

Show me one bit of scientific evidence that is well-documented by reputable sources concerning any of this and I will change my views accordingly.  However, up to this point, I have found nothing that even remotely shows that any of this is possible.

You may be curious as to why I am here, then.  Quite simply, at some point I did believe just as you all do.  However, I retracted those beliefs after studying the facts and rationalizing my own experiences.  I am just trying to tell all of you to try and do the same.  Don't get caught up in hype simply to believe in something.  Try to make sense of your experiences and ask yourself, "what is the most logical reason for these experiences."

Thank you for your time!

Jason

Hello Astralmaster!

Allow me to refer you to the following:

http://skepdic.com/dreams.html

Quote:

"Nowadays, hardly anyone believes that dreams are messages from the gods. But some parapsychologists, such as Charles Tart, believe that dreams offer entry into another universe, a paranormal universe of OBEs, cosmic messages, and blissful nirvana. His main evidence for this seems to be his personal faith and an anecdote about his baby sitter. He claims the unnamed baby sitter (he calls her "Miss Z") had the power to leave her body during sleep. He claims he tested his flying babysitter in his sleep lab at UC Davis after she told him that she "thought everyone went to sleep, woke up in the night, floated up near the ceiling for a while, then went back to sleep." Other psychologists might have been concerned for the mental well-being of "Miss Z" and the safety of his or her children. Tart was intrigued. He put a number on a shelf, hooked up "Miss Z" to an EEG machine and put her to bed. She claims that even though she didn't read the number on the shelf, she flew around the room the first few nights. She didn't get the number right until the fourth night. Skeptics think either Tart is making up the story or it took the girl four nights to figure out how to trick the scientist. (See Tart's 'A Psychophysiological Study of Out-of-the-Body Experiences in a Selected Subject,' Journal of the American Society for Psychical Research, 1968, 62, pp. 3-27.) Others have investigated the question of whether the mind is open to telepathic input during sleep and have failed to find evidence of psychic ability while dreaming. Scientific research by psychiatrist Montague Ullman and parapsychologist Charles Honorton in the early 1970s at Maimonides Hospital in Brooklyn, New York, obtained chance results after an initial testing that looked positive for psi (Baker)."

Jason

Thank you all for sharing your views.

My interpretation of the subjective effects of OBEs is that it is a very interesting state of consciousness that doesn't really fit into a dream state or a waking state, but rather a combination or crossroads between the two states.

My OBE's always consist of an area of "black void" from which I can move around (without physically moving around) or enter into a state of lucid dreaming.  The lucid dreaming stage is so incredibly vivid that it puts reality to shame.  In fact, many times this state will not last very long because I get very excited, causing the experience to retract itself.

I can induce this OBE crossroads area almost at will.  If I go to bed at night, sleep for a few hours and then get up to do some writing for school, then I will most likely have them when I go and lie back down.

In fact, I *wanted* to have one early this morning and I was able to.  This time, it was very strange because I felt like I was floating around and slowly bouncing off the ground, as if I was in a very light-gravity environment.  When I open my eyes in this state, I generally see both what is there and what is not.  I usually face my alarm clock and, when in this state, I can read the time, but there is other things around me that I cannot describe.  It is a very strange type of vision.  

During the OBE episode (and I call it OBE because that is the accepted terminology here), the loud ringing stated up in my head.  Once this happens, I get very excited because then I know I'm about to enter into a really "cool" type of consciousness.  I then, with my eyes shut and no vision, had the sensation that I was rolling down a hill like I used to do as a kid.  The rolling was pretty violent but the physical sensations of rolling were very real, unlike regular run-of-the-mill dreams.

I then remember the sensation that I was holding onto a rope that was suspended from a tall ceiling.  I was in a different room than my bedroom and there was a large church window with a very warm blue light behind it.  I remember trying to swing myself so I could bust through the window, but was unable to do so.  

At this point, the OBE subsided and I woke up.  I was a little upset that it didn't last longer.

My belief is that OBE's are just the result of processes within the brain that some people are able to tune into before or after falling asleep.  It is a very difficult balancing act to find that right niche to enter into that state, but once you are there, you know exactly what is going on.  As a kid, I used to be terrified of the experiences, but now I use them to enter lucid-dreaming states to gain insights on problems, practice interacting with dream characters and observing symbolism.  

The lucid-dream state is a wonderful place to get a lot of very original ideas if you are an artist.  I have done a few digital artwork pictures based upon some of the places I have seen while in the lucid-dream state / OBE state.  

However, to say that one has a "soul" independent of the body is a stretch in my opinion.  The brain and the processes within the brain are what make up our thoughts, ideas, emotions and goals.  To suggest that there must be a further element to consciousness is to make the problem more complicated.  

I am a very honest and straightforward person.  I have never had an experience during an OBE session that signifies that I am able to view information at remote locations or actually "travel" anywhere.  I was brought up to have a very critical and observant mind, although I have observed a few things in my life that defied rational and logical explanation.  

1)  When I went to camp one summer as a kid, I woke up one morning crying and didn't know why.  My parents were coming to visit me that day.  When they came to visit me, as soon as I saw them, I just blurted out, "you got rid of our dog!  Why?" and started to cry.  Amazingly, they had to get rid of our dog and there was no possible way I could have ever known.  To this day, I don't know how or why I knew -- but the simple fact was that I did know somehow.

2) I can go into old buildings and generally feel some affinity towards the building, and a lot of times I feel extremely happy and warm inside old buildings -- and I especially often get waves of "emotion" as I go through different rooms.  I have no way of explaining this, but can only speak from my observation that it does happen and I am affected for some reason or another.

There are things in life that I cannot explain, but this does not mean there is no rational explanation for them.

Jason

Generally, my lucid dreams are extremely vibrant and clear.  In fact, my most lucid dreams are somehow more clear than my everyday vision, which is 20/20.

Amazing stuff when I do have them.