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I do, however, feel like I know I exist.  Do you think you might be able to go into that a bit more?  Is it the existance as a separate self and identity that we cling to?  Is it existence in general?  Do you think when we are finished with this dream, we melt into nothingness and unite as one?  As one mind and one being without any sense of self?  Thanksmuch!

Those attachments (likes,dislikes,opinions, etc.) are what create the idea of a separate self. So all those attachments ARE the self, just as a bunch of individual parts create a car. So we cling to a self identity or attachments which gives the illusion of self and other. When you say "when we are finished with this dream, we melt into nothingness and unite as one? " do you mean after we die or just when enlightenment occurs? This is a hard question to answer properly. If you are talking after death, it wouldn't be right to say we do anything or go anywhere, as there is nothing to go anywhere or become anything. If one is not awakened the illusion will persist until one awakens, this is where the law of karma comes into play. Imagine the true nature is like a blank white screen the illusion is like a movie projected onto that screen, karma is the film going into the projector, as long as we keep comitting karma we will keep feeding film into the projector keeping that movie playing.
It wouldn't seem right to say "unite as one" either because there were never two to begin with, so no union can take place. Though it may seem to be a union and sounds like a good way to describe it, you can say after union occurs you realize there really wasn't a union that took place, but that you were already one and just didn't realize it.

I like what jilola wrote. I like to think of the true nature as a mountain, solid, still and unmoving and our thoughts, emotions, physical sensations as a river. In our ignorance we are caught up in the river, trying to catch the waves and hold them, but we just end being swept away by the current. Eventually we get tired of that river and get out and climb the mountain. When we rest atop the mountain we are at peace, still, and unmoving, but that doesn't mean the river no longer flows. The river continuous to flow as always, only thing is that were not in there trying to catch the waves, getting swept up by the current. We just watch the river flow by from our mountain top view.

Here is what I wrote about consciousness in the integral philosophy forum, it really has allot to do with this topic.
When you pop a candy in your mouth the sensation of taste arises. Now that taste is something totally other than the candy and tongue. Taste only comes into existence when the candy and tongue make contact. Like man and women have sex and create a child, that child comes into being dependent on the contact of man and women, but the child is its own unique thing. Taste is the child of the tongue and the candy. Hearing is the child of sound vibrations and the ear. Feeling is the child of the body and an object. Smelling is the child of the nose and an aroma. Seeing is the child of the eye and an object.
Tasting is an aspect of our awareness, hearing is an aspect of our awareness, feeling is an aspect of our awareness, smelling is an aspect of our awareness, seeing is an aspect of our awareness. The total accumulation of all those aspects is our awareness. Awareness is the child of the senses and reality.
Awareness is all there is, no way around it. You can point to anything you want or describe anything you want, but all you are doing is pointing to awareness. A mirror(senses) contacts an object (reality) and there arises the reflection(awareness). The reflection is its own thing, it is not the mirror neither is it the object being reflected. For you to identify yourself with an observer, saying "This here is me, the observer." that would be like the reflection identifying itself as the mirror. Identifying anything as yourself is deluding yourself (I know that sounds like a contradiction, ahhh the limitations of language.) Really, there is nothing to identify yourself with. You are awareness, nothing else. Actually there is no you to be awareness. It just is.

Now here is something I had thought of after having come to my conclusions on consciousness.What about the consciousness of others? I do believe in the existence of other realms of existence, now in all these realms with all these beings that exist, no matter how big or how small or how intelligent or how dumb that no matter what, they too are also awareness. Even if some being has a thousand senses, can sense things a human couldn't even comprehend, that being too is nothing other than awareness, even a being with the most tiniest of sensory input would also just be awareness. Now in all the infinite cosmos there is only one reality that all beings are a part of and that is awareness. Its not even that all beings are apart of this awareness, there really are no beings to begin with, just one awareness. To believe in the existence of other beings you would have to believe in your separate self existence.

This is a little story I came up with to explain our situation.
There was a body of water and one day for some unknown reason a desire had arises within that water, a desire to be wet. So the water began searching for wetness, he tried everything imaginable to attain this wetness, he tried and tried and tried but failed every time, so he tried and tried some more until it became a deep habit. This habit became so deep that the water didn't even know what it was searching for anymore, it blindly tried to attain wetness, it became his second nature. Then one day the waters eyes opened a little, he saw how crappy his situation was, always trying o be wet but can never achieve it. He saw now that the cause for all his misery was this constant search for wetness, so he decided then and there that life would be much nicer if he just stopped trying to be wet. But the problem is he can't stop, the habit is so deep, when his mind slips he's at it again, trying to be wet. So he concentrates really hard, always watching himself and whenever he catches himself trying to be wet, he stops, he does this for a long time until one day he breaks the habit completely. He no longer tries to be wet and in that very instant he realizes "Wait a second, I'm already wet. My very nature IS wetness, and all this time I was trying to be what I already was."
All he can do then is just laugh at his own foolishness.


Wow this is allot of stuff here. I hope you have the patience to read it all. If you need me to clarify anything or don't agree with something let me know. I like to hear and learn from anyones thoughts an ideas.

Hello I dont have much experience with obe's, but I have had two spontaneously. In both occasions I was able to hear everything in my physical surroundings. One of the times was at my friends house. I had dozed off on his couch and had an obe. It was like I just stood up and started floating away, but I way completely aware. I could still here everything, eventually I heard my friend trying to talk to me. I couldn't answer him, because I couldn't move my body it was really hard it was like I had to get back in before I could get up and talk. Anyway the whole point of this is that I'm wondering was I hearing with my actual ears? If not then it seems it would be possible to listen ti things far away without physically being there or using the other sensing like maybe see things without actually being there.

Your right, all there is is consciousness. I actually posted a topic explaining it in the integral philosophy forum, its called 1+1=1, it may seem hard to follow, but that's because it is hard to explain.  The way I have practiced is by observing EVERYTHING. I view the world as if I am watching a movie. Instead of becoming engaged in the world I view it from the perspective of an invisible observer and when I do become engaged in the world I observe my engagement with it. This way I begin to see the laws under witch everything operates. I start from the outside, the more I understand the closer I move in until the most inner point is reached, which is exactly the same place as the outer starting point. The inner is the outer and vice versa. I guess that probably doesn't make much sense, but everything you observe points back to the one source.
This what I have learned from my observations:
There is one desire that we all share and it is the mother of all other desires, the desire to exist. This is a deep desire that most of the time we aren't even aware of, this desire is the cause for all our suffering. The desire for existence is the reason why we attach and cling to our sense of self. And what is the self? The self is just or likes, dislikes, beliefs, opinions, ideas, etc.  Clinging to the self is clinging to our likes, dislikes etc. in other words our attachments. We hold and cherish those attachments because it gives us a sense self, a sense of being.  Without those attachments we lose all our individuality, our sense of self, our sense of being, and we are so afraid to lose that.
But look at the nature of nature, it is impermanent. Everything is in a constant state of change even your personality is constantly changing. You are not the same person your were five years ago, not even the same person as a second ago.
We crave for existence, permanence, security, peace. Our mistake is that we think the source of peace and security is "out there", but "out there" is impermanent, we can never have peace and security by attaching to things that are constantly changing. As soon as we grasp something and hold it we lose our grip and start falling, so we grab onto something else only to lose our grip and fall again, an endless cycle of grasping. This is why we have no peace, we cant have peace like that.  
Our true nature is pure selfless being, that is the nature of all. We have somehow developed the notion that we do not exist, that were are not already in a state of being. This notion is why we crave for existence, if we knew our true nature was already a pure state of being we would have no reason to search "out there" and solidify our self existence. We already possess what we crave. That sense of being is not something we have to attain or search for because it is already our true nature, it is just something we have to realize. When self realization occurs there is no longer the need to search, no need to become anything, only thing left to do is be.

When you pop a candy in your mouth the sensation of taste arises. Now that taste is something totally other than the candy and tongue. Taste only comes into existence when the candy and tongue make contact. Like man and women have sex and create a child, that child comes into being dependant on the contact of man and women, but the child is its own unique thing. Taste is the child of the tongue and the candy. Hearing is the child of sound vibrations and the ear. Feeling is the child of the body and an object. Smelling is the child of the nose and an aroma. Seeing is the child of the eye and an object.
Tasting is an aspect of our awareness, hearing is an aspect of our awareness, feeling is an aspect of our awareness, smelling is an aspect of our awareness, seeing is an aspect of our awareness. The total accumulation of all those aspects is our awareness. Awareness is the child of the senses and reality.
Awareness is all there is, no way around it. You can point to anything you want or describe anything you want, but all you are doing is pointing to awareness. A mirror(senses) contacts an object (reality) and there arises the reflection(awareness). The reflection is its own thing, it is not the mirror neither is it the object being reflected. For you to identify yourself with an observer, saying "This here is me, the observer." that would be like the reflection identifying itself as the mirror. Identifying anything as yourself is deluding yourself (I know that sounds like a contradiction, ahhh the limitations of language.) Really, there is nothing to identify yourself with. You are awareness, nothing else. Actually there is no you to be awareness. It just is.

I just meant that we shouldnt cling to the words themselves, we should look at the meaning they point at. The Buddha said that all things are impermanent and not self and subject to change, death and decay. But he was talking about things in samsara. He also said that there is a dimension, or plane of existence beyond samsara.

agreed, and its achieved through non attachment.

Depends on your definition of the word "self". Remeber all we are dealing with here are words, its the meaning that is important. Because the Buddha didnt even say any of these words, he was speaking another language.

Whats your point? Should we disregard the whole English translation of the Pali Canon then?  I believe when the Buddha spoke of self he meant it as a permanent essence. The Buddha said all things are impermanent and not self. But I dont speak Pali, so maybe I'm wrong. What I mean by not self strategy is that, yes we all have that true nature, but to realize it requires letting go of all attachment. If you hold on to the thought "I have a self" you are clinging. To hold on to the thought "I have no self" you are clinging. Its not about weather you have a self or not, Its the clinging that needs to be let go of.

yes, that very nature is within every being. but it is not self. see the strategy.

right, the Buddha taught not-self, which is more of a strategy for letting go of sufferings causes. but he never taught that there was a true self. when he was asked straight out weather there was a self or not he remained silent. because both views " i have a self" or "i have no self" require clinging. the Buddha taught the middle way. to avoid extremes. the extreme of eternalism and the extreme of nihilism

karma is in the mind. the things that happen in life are really not good or bad or anything, its just simply cause and effect. the experience of life comes from the mind. if i trip over a rock and scrape my knee, i might get ticked and curse the rock. but really what happened is just a process of cause and effect. the anguish is in my mind not in the rock, the ground or my knee. our actions determine the way we perceive these events. if i get upset and curse the rock, that action conditions the mind to perceive these types of events as negative, so that mental anguish will always arise when those outer conditions are met.
you never know when you will see the fruits of a particular karma. it could be today, ten years from now, next life time.
it all depends on when the right outer conditions arise. lets go back to the tripping over a rock ex. when i react to that in anger i condition my mind in that way, so eventually that mind state will arise again, but it will not arise until outer conditions are met, like say stubbing my toe.
remember karma is the intention behind our actions.
the mind states that arise when we stub our toe is the fruit of karma. when the mind state arises and manifests into intentional action weather it be thought, bodily action, or speech that is creation of karma.
it breaks down like this:
stub toe, get ticked and shout profanities- this is action by speech, the intention behind this action is anger.

action with anger as intention- creates karma, the very action creates an impression in the mind.

get cut off in traffic, get ticked flip off the other driver- bodily action with anger as the intention. the reason why you react in anger is because you conditioned the mind to react to theses situations in that way. this action creates karma. reinforcing that same impression in the mind.

lose you last man on super Mario bros.- you curse the video game, action with anger as intention. creates yet more karma, reinforcing that same tendency in the mind. next time outer conditions are met anger will arise and you will act again and reap the same results and act again and reap and act and reap. endless.

i tried to keep it simple with my example to better explain it. it gets way more deeper than

no meaning

its not annihilation.  i dont want you to mistake what i say. it may sound that way. but do tell me, how can this body see, taste smell, hear, feel if it is dead? these are just aspects of the body, the body has consciousness, not you. "you" do not possess the body nor does the body possess a "you".  when you realize this, you see it is not annihilation because there is no "you" to become annihilated. there is no "you" to exist, no "you" to not exist. all is one.  "you" doesn't merge with all, because there is no  "you" to merge with all. there is just the realization of all. it is really unexplainable, words fall short.  

so you think when you die, it's goodbye BoscosFriend

when you realize the all, there is no death. birth and death is an illusion.

what is your spirit, it is your true higher self
here and in the astral, even though here you dont have all of your higher self conscious, or even subconcious


but even as a kid i had simular personality trates than now

and i expect my whole life i will stay simular

and i believe that your higher self does have it's unique personality trates

everyone is unique, even after this life, even in the astral

maybe this life i am a bit more of this or that, than my last life you know?

but i feal we are always simular, growing, learning, and yes, changing becoming different

but i dont believe we change to such a matter where we're completley different

What is your true higher self?
yes sure, you have similar personality traits to when you were younger. but are you the same? every instant your ego is changing in some way. you cant say there is a constant permanent self if it is in constant fluctuation. the traits that make up your personality come about from your perception of outside phenomena. ego is dependant on the body, its not a solid independently existing thing.  
Nothing in creation exist independently, look closely at how reality works.
Everything is in dependence, nothing exist without a cause. everything is connected this way, everything up to your body and mind. your body and "soul" is just an extension of something else that is an extension of something else and so on.  do you see what I'm saying?just take an object and really try and trace back every single cause that made that object come into existence, do it and see what happens.
what you will see is that all of creation is connected, everything is in dependence. to say you are a separate existing entity makes no sense.   what it comes down to is that you are not a spirit, you are all things. there is no self that merges with the all, what happens is you realize you are all and always was all, the thought of being a separate entity was all error.

the ego does go on in a way, as long as your are bound to the self, you will wander on and on birth after birth, never ending. until awakening. this has everything to do with karma, i wont go into it. unless you want me to. as it will extend this post even further on.

think of soulmates

in the astral, your soulmate and you come together due to simularities of eachother

it's not like when you pass this life, your completley different

i can easily see right now, the apperience (to an extent) i will chose to have when i leave, my language, my self apperience

and i feel strongly the difference, will be different, but yet simular

do you believe that your astral body is your true higher self?
i have no doubt that we may be  reborn in the astral realms.
but your astral body is just as empty as your physical one.  it is not self.
until all attachment is removed we will wander on and on.

but doesn't your personality tie into your spirit

nope, what is your spirit anyway? did your personality exist before you were born? is the personality you had when you were three years old the same as your current personality? ego originates from the belief that you have a permanent self. believing the body with all aspects (senses, consciousness) is a self. everything you experienced in this life time and actually previous lifetimes has shaped your ego into what it is at the current moment, and even at this moment it is changing. constantly changing like all things do.
when the body dies so does the ego. ego is not your soul. there really is no "your" soul. there is no "you" that posseses the body nor is the body possessing a "you". the body is just a body. there is nothing you can identify as a self. no permanent personal soul. all is impermanent and without self.

a human body comes into existence through infinite causes just like anything else. a human body by its very nature has sight, smell, hearing, tasting, feeling, consciousness. These aspects of the human body are just that. aspects of the human body, nothing more. This is not your body, this is not your seeing, not your tasting, not your smelling, not your hearing, not your feeling, not your consciousness. seeing is seeing, tasting is tasting, smelling is smelling, hearing is hearing, feeling is feeling, consciousness is consciousness. that's all. Out of ignorance we believe this body with all its aspects are me and mine, through this ignorance rises dualistic experience, rises self identity. self is just an illusion, its all conditioned. everything you believe you are is just illusion, it has nothing to do with a "soul". when the body dies it goes back to the cosmos, gets recycled. when the body dies consciousness dies. dont identify with the body and its aspects, its an impermanent piece of matter. clinging to views of self, weather it be the body or a soul, is ignorance. we cling out of fear, we crave existence so we cling. stop clinging, let go of your self identity views.

i disagree, there are no limits with music. there may limitations if you allow yourself to be limited. is there a set way to play an instrument? i been playing music for years. guitar,drums,keyboards,bass, sitar. experimenting with sounds. anything can be music anything can be an instrument. you can bang two rocks together and shout and it can be a song. me and my friend do music, we  used a blow dryer in a song, along with pots, and toys. your only limited by your imagination. or if you think that your only a musician if you play your instrument by the set standard.

hello, i been having the pressure on my forehead for a while now. it came when i started fooling around with lucid dreaming about 5 years ago. but now i have been practicing meditation for a year and the felling in my forehead has intensified greatly, mainly during meditation. but the feeling will come if i just think about it. the feeling is strong like heavy pressure, the most intense is slightly up between the eyes, but spreads  down the bridge of my nose and up to my hairline. recently i have been starting to feel slight tingles on the crown of my head. not too intense until today. during meditation the pressure became really intense on the crown along
with the forehead.when the crown became intense my whole body became tense and tingly and warm. the thing is i dont have any of these feelings at any other chakra spots. I'm not trying to activate the chakras, it just happens. what does this mean, i dont know much about chakras. what is the point in opening chakras? appreciate any advice.

practice, practice. practice. concentration, mindfulness. there is no tricks really. at least none that i know of. when i first started my mind was all over the place. and every time i felt a physical sensation or something, i would be like oooh,whats that. with practice the mind will become more at ease.

hello data. i know what you mean. i had the same problem. not really social anxiety. but the feeling that all wordly ambitions have no true meaning. though I'm over all that now since i got into Buddhism. i am going to visit a Buddhist monastery to see if a life as a monk is right for me. all i know is that my only goal in life is to end my suffering and help others.  how is a monastic life neglecting the physical aspect of life?
are you married? have kids? if not, whats stopping you from doing anything?do you really want a career and stuff? or do you feel like that's what you have to do, like that's what is expected of you? that's how i felt, like i was a bum or a failure if i didn't go to college and make money and have material things. i know better than that now, do whatever you want, you dint have to do anything. you dont have to pay bills if you dont want to.  

If this was a more spiritual world, where people cared more for each other, then a soul like me, would not have the problems I am having today. The closest I can get to a spiritual world on the world wide web, is this forum

if you want to lead a spiritual life than do it. no one is stopping you but you.

BoscosFriend, I do understand what you are saying. It is widely held among spiritualists that we are god. However, as much as that it is true at the most profound level of reality, at our observer-dependent reality level, it is not true. So 'god' does indeed reside out of our domain of reality.

The Hindu's addressed this problem in identifying god, by calling him the supreme personality. When they say become one with all, it really means transform your personality to the highest state.

are you saying that when we transform our personality to the highest state we become one with all, but because of our current level of reality we are separate from all?
if this is what you are saying then i somewhat agree.  it isn't that our ignorance keeps us separate from all, its our ignorance that creates the illusion of being separate from all. the truth is we were never separate.

greatoutdoors:I agree that what you refer to as God cannot exist outside of "everything," but it wouldn't have to. It is unquestionable that "everything" swims in a universal sea of energy. Chakras and auras are just two examples of the visibility of this energy. My point of debate is whether that energy is "God," or whether it is simply another component of "everything." I just made a post on another thread that sort of relates to this.

hmmm, i dint know i ha vent seen auras. but i would regard it as just another component of everything, because everything is a component of everything. another link in the chain. but at the same time i guess you could call it god. i would have to think more on this. what is your opinion on it? i would be interested in your view.

You can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God through the use of your example, but if God does exist, he/she/it will be right here in the middle of us, not outside "everything

I'm attempting to disprove the existence of an idol form of god. a single separate existing entity that created all.

Of course, that brings up another little conundrum -- once we have imagined as big an "everything" as possible, what caused that to come into being?

OK, so we imagined as big as possible. so now we wonder what caused that to come into being. this is confusing so bare with me.  OK, that which caused this to come into being is no different than this. since this is now in existence it becomes part of that and that apart of this. so really there is no this and that. actually i dont see the importance in knowing the exact causes of things. it would just be knowledge in the brain. maybe there is one original cause and maybe not. either way i doubt we would ever know, i don't think its all that important to know either. i kind think of it is like a circle.you cant find the beginning or end.

Yes we all exist within each other.. But when it comes to that god does not exist i can not agree.. The thing is that it is not outside everything it is on the other planes (etc astral planes) Its just like when you have a wooden board and place a Glass board on top of it the Glass board will be transparent (like the astral and other planes) further more i do not believe that god is a person its alto more like in star wars "the force"
And we are a part of the force just like the force is a part of us...

when i say god does not exist i mean an idol form of god. like a separate existing entity that created all. even if some godly being in another plane created our existence it still wouldn't make any difference. we all exist within each other, which you agree with, so that being which created our existence exists within us and we exist within it. he just becomes another cause in the chain reaction, no different than a grain of sand or a thought.
to me the only thing that can be called god is the connecting web of depend ant existence. but i would rather not call it god because the term is too misleading. we can call it lagalabooboo, it doesn't make any difference anyway. its all just words.

god- in this argument I'm talking of the idea of a god that exist as its own separate entity that created everything and watches over.

existence- everything, objects,thoughts,actions,space. everything

ego- the Inness we feel as humans. idea of the self being its own separate thing.

everything- same as existence

separation- the idea that we are separate beings. everything being separate from everything.

hope this helps.

hello tyciol.

First off, I don't know anything that claims God exists outside of everything, because in the case of any that people talk about, he/she has somehow interacted with our form of reality in some way, otherwise we wouldn't know about it now would we? All 'god' is supposed to do is exist in a higher form of reality outside of ours.

Your last statement is what I'm talking about. there is no outside ours. no outside anything. how can there be an outside ours? or inside?

Also, I'm wondering where you get your 'everything exists' logic. I'm sure I could make something up, and the only place it would exit would be as a thought in my mind, not as a real existing thing in physical actuality. I'm assuming that's how you're measuring reality or the god argument wouldn't work too well.

OK lets say in all of reality only one planet existed, and that was it, nothing more. the phrase "everything exists" would still be true. because one planet is all that exists. so you see purple and pink spotted monkeys do not necessarily have to exist (although its possible that they could) in order for everything to exist.
when i talk of everything existing i do not exclude thought and actions, they cannot be excluded from the law of cause and effect. tell me how the god argument wouldn't work well, now that you know that i am including thoughts and actions as being part of existence. all I'm trying to do is show the dependent nature of reality. things cannot exist of there own accord. everything depends on everything else in order to exist.  there is no separation, that is just illusion. no difference between a tree and a chair, the moon and the ocean. there isn't any one thing.

i had a deep realization recently that i would like to share. the post may be long but please read it. i find it pretty amazing.
First i will make this statement: Everything exists. nothing can be excluded, there isn't anything that cannot exist, simply because everything exists. Simple logic. Get it?
OK now, some people, well most it seems believe in a god that exists outside of our reality. A being that created everything.
So tell me, how can something exist outside of everything? if something exists weather inside, outside or whatever side of everything, its still part of everything. it would be like having ten marbles and then placing all ten in a jar, and then saying "all ten marbles in this jar represent everything that exists, but there is still one on the outside of the jar." that would be ridiculous, it just doesn't make sense.
OK, so it is impossible for anything to exist outside of everything. So if god exists, he has to exist within everything and since he would exists within everything he would also be subject to the law of nature (cause and effect). I'll explain this law. Everything that exists, exists because of previous causes.
Lets say a wooden chair, what is this cause if this chair? we can say a tree, the tree caused the chair. so what caused the tree? sun, rain, seed, earth. so all those causes caused the tree which caused the chair which causes comfort when i sit on it,which causes a scuff on the floor and on and on. we can also go back further and ask what caused the sun, the rain, the earth, the seed and keep going and going for infinity it will never end. you will just keep going with the causes until it connected all of existence. everything is connected by this law. so, if god exists within everything, and nothing can exist without a cause, then god is subject to the law of cause and effect. so god would have to have a cause in order to exist. just like everything else. and you see how everything is connected through this law. everything is the cause of everything. what it comes down to is that i exist because everything else exist and everything exist because i exist. same with you, same with a rock a tree and god. god is no different than a rock. there is no god entity that created everything, instead the only thing you can say god is, is everything. every object, thought and action is like a brick holding together an infinite wall. the wall being god, every brick a part of god.
Wait! there is more.
Going back to the wooden chair. So there is this chair that was made from a tree, this tree no longer exists in the forest.
But it still does exist, only in the form of a chair. When the chair breaks down and decomposes, the chair no longer exist in the form of a chair but in the form of whatever a decomposing chair turns into. so the tree never stops existing, only changes forms. same with the chair, it will always exist. see even before the chair existed it existed within the tree. before the tree grew it existed in the form of a seed, the chair existed in the seed also. and remember how everything is connected through cause and effect? i am the cause of the chair, just like the tree is, just not in such a direct way. but this means that i exist in the chair and the chair exists within me.
everything is connected, we all exist within each other. there is no separation. separation is an illusion created by the ego. we have the false idea that we are separate beings. there is no separate anything. all objects, life, thoughts, words, actions, everything is the same. i dint want to say all is one, i think that is incorrect, it seems that if there is one, then there can be two. i think all is nothing is more fitting or all is infinity, which ever you like. there is no difference.

i do not think there is a true self. what we believe to be "I" is only ego. if attachment to ego is destroyed there would be no more I and no more suffering. we only suffer because we falsely identify with self(ego). the ego experiences good and bad, the ego experiences the world. we suffer because we are attached to the ego. but all suffering and happiness is an illusion.i do not believe we are pure at birth either.  we are born as a result of ignorance.

[The Karma theory (like any religious theory) presumes that it is ruled by something other than our perceptions. So your perception of good and evil wouldn't matter, if you thought killing people was good karma, and you killed someone, it would still be bad karma]

The Karma theory (like any religious theory) presumes that it is ruled by something other than our perceptions. So your perception of good and evil wouldn't matter, if you thought killing people was good karma, and you killed someone, it would still be bad karma
I agree completely.  it doesn't matter what we think good or bad is. when we act, weather its stealing or watching television, we do so in order to fulfill a desire. we act in an attempt to bring happiness and contentment to our lives. even if it is stealing, that person does so in the belief that the action will bring contentment. it isn't so outright obvious, most people i don't think even realize this is the motivation behind there actions.
This motivation is the very thing that creates karma. because this motivation(contentment/happiness) behind our actions gives the perception of what is desirable and undesirable. and our knowledge of what is desirable and undesirable fuels our motivation for the desirable.
so what happens is constant craving for pleasurable experience and constant action for pleasurable experience, which can never be fulfilled because the action just leads right back to craving. a cycle. bad karma will lead to bad experience and good karma will lead to good experience, but both keep us in ignorance and discontentment. that is karma

If you don't believe in karma, like you or I, then yes, you can live without those restrictions, but it doesn't help in trying to debate them, or disprove them. It is the most subtle argument I've ever seen, and nearly impossible to prove or dispute. You just believe it or you don't.

I do believe in karma in the same sense that i believe a dollar has value. it only has the power we give it, ultimately it is just a delusion. It is a very subtle debate, but it is worth discussing, and is something that should be contemplated deeply. I don't know about you, but i do not live without the restrictions of karma, i have yet to reach the level of total elation of karma, i believe that would be enlightenment. anyway, i guess we can call it quits if you want, I'm probably starting to talk in circles.