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[But why ? Why would they hate us???]

Hello Selski!

I like all your posts. You are so ...'inside', so to say...!


You said:
"5. There are volunteer creatures who live permanently at

the entry points and scare the living daylights out of us on

purpose - because they hate us. "

But why ? Why would they hate us???


"6. There are volunteer creatures who live permanently at

the entry points and scare the living daylights out of us on

purpose - for a laugh."

You meant : they feel happy to laugh about us? Why?

I feel so depressed to think about all this...


Can you be so kind to explain?

Tam

This Forum is the best way to validate your experiences, by comparison to others'.

Thank you for the link! Frank is an excellent teacher!

My experiences were not 'less programmed', but spontaneous only at the beginning, then 'programmed', in a different way that yours...

This raises the issue of which method is better for a major realization...!?!

I've read somewhere on this forum a very interesting and I think very correct opinion that spontaneous OOBE 'are given' only at the beginning, then you have to work, you have to practice, you have to find a way for your life to expand consciousness.


In fact, the vast majority of those people having spontaneous experiences try to find a way to 'programming'.  They do so, I believe, precisely because they understand the difference having only one pick experience once, like by accident, and having many similar experiences on a regular basis.


I am sure there are many ways to 'programming', many languages, and many systems, like in every Matrix!

In one of my first spontaneous experiences, I had a vision of 'The Essence'. I couldn't understand what 'The Essence' is. But an entirely huge image of a vegetal world started becoming very transparent in front of me, so that I've seen 'The Essence' running everywhere inside trees, flowers, grass, and so on... 'The Essence' was having different percents of density or quantity...but she was for sure more or less present!


What I understood was only this: if one will not allow 'The Essence' to circulate through him, after the first attempt, 'The Essence' will withdraw and one will die!


So, to conclude: finding a way to 'programming' means to fight for your own life and survive.


Of course there are many programs, appropriate to circumstances (time and space). And there is also everywhere a truly reactionary, anti progressive and regressive fog over this field...
I was living in a communist country where everything about spiritual was forbidden; after the communism disappearance, everything about spiritual was just denied (like an old prejudice!) The only way to accomplish knowledge was reading books in other languages (I've learnt 5 foreign languages!)

So I read C. G. Jung and I found a way to 'programming' – a psychological one, which was working very well to me for a while. Many of these 'Jungian' methods can be instrumental in disclosing and amplifying the consciousness, because they are based on imagination and concentration.
But after a while, there is a need for a change...People become bored, they want to change... Perhaps different levels require different methods...?


I agree that all the methods done by Robert Bruce  and   Robert Monroe are more appropriate for our time and much easier to practice. They are the best.
But not everybody could find this at any time in any country...What if some very poor people from a very poor country would not have books, Internet or any other helps? I believe that progress will still find a way...
In the past, Sri Aurobindo had a real  'plateau of experiences' only by practicing meditation!  In the same way, Saint Augustine, a few centuries ago, had an amazing vision about time ( RTZ - ?) and non–time (see his "Confessions").There should be not only a single genuine methodology to produce OOBE, but many.
I wander which one will have the best power to accelerate the unfolding process?


Tam

Frank, your attendance on the forum will be a bit sporadic for the next five or six weeks? That's too bad... You're such a good teacher!!! Even if you don't know, there are so many peoples reading your articles...!!!
I have had so many valuable lessons to take from your posts!!!

Yes, you are so right: "... hardly anyone can actually DO any of it! "
But can you really teach everyone how 'to becoming a serious practitioner of the Art'?
If so, so many people will need your help, as I need it my self...

See you,
Tam

How can you ever perceive the RTZ environment as it is?
Do you really know how it really is?

Tam

HI!

I was my self always very sabotaged by the depression and anxiety when I was very yang!

I discovered a very good technique to get rid of it: and this is to try to be altruistic!

I am not suggesting just a very good general attitude toward other people's life.
It's not enough.
I recommend you to be really not selfish, to try really a permanent method to help others.  As long as you are concerning about others and not about yourself, any depression is getting lost!

If you do this by your own will, in a very short time you will not have any feelings about death and inutile life...
You will find that there is a meaning of life...

See you,
Tam

PS: Have ever try TONGLEN?
It's a very interesting method of meditation to 'take' other peoples' problems into your life...If you have enough courage to do this, you will not have your own problems as in the past...

I am not sure if I understand some terms like Focus 4 (F4oc) (type "Frank" and "F4oc") ; I've read some very interesting articles by you, by "Frank"  or by " upstream" , yet you have here a general terminology which is pretty new, and I need to learn more.
Is it possible to find any 'library' or 'articles – index' or something like this? I feel like lost, because I cannot know / use the same terms like yours...

You said: "Some aspects of dual consciousness can be ascribed to "lack of experience". Not really lack of experience, but there is more room for "possibility" in the first, let's say, 100 OBEs. "

Well...I am absolutely sure that I had more than 100 OBEs.! Positive!!!  
But you are right about the "lack of experience" – I never had any appropriate program about it.
The first ones, when I was a child /then teen-ager, were mostly about 'strange visitors/ or entities'...  Very early in my life, I understood the differences between a lucid dream and an OOBE and, even if I couldn't have any teachers, books or directions (because living in a communist country) I had like an inner experience about making the difference.  


About the "sense of identity" – it's not possible to keep it entirely! When in an OOBE, this is not quite exactly the sense of identity of who you are in this life, what is your name, job, family, society and so on, no!
After passing on the other side, I always had a 'sense of identity' in a very general way, like the sense of being alive, like a sense of  "I AM' or "I EXIST", which is so strong connected to my personal life.  I don't know if anybody could keep in his memory more about his own life! I would be so happy if anybody could teach me this!!!
What more could we take with us in '...there'?


Your experience of having 'two dreams at once' should be extremely interesting! I would like so much to have one like this! I wonder if that is possible to teach to each others, any very special personal experience...

...And yes, "...it's really quite amazing stuff, especially the fact that these experiences do not threaten identity or individuality in any way, and yet there is a tremendous expansion happening. "

Who could ever teach us more???

Tam

Thank you for your answer, Tom!
I think you are right, it's very unusual. Do you know if there are any conditions to have such experience? What is causing this? What is suddenly forbidden this?


Last night, I had a very similar experience, like repeating it's self in an other version.


After getting in sleep, I've 'wake up on the other side', very lucid and looking like a witness from above.  On my bed I've seen a few very precious objects, like covered by precious stones; I couldn't see them too clearly, because my room was very dark, having almost no light at all (somehow like the moon light). I new I don't have these objects in my real life; but they were there in the lucid dream.

Then suddenly, out of the blue, with no warning, I've start being present in all of those objects and in the above condition at the same time! I was able to see somehow from the inside of all those objects, because my soul was present in all of them, at the same time!  Even during this experience, I was lucid and rational, understanding that it's a repetition of what I felt yesterday night!

I wake up very calm, like all this should be so natural possible for everyone and for me too!


Now all this reminds me a very strong experience I had about ten years ago.

Even if it was alive only a few seconds, perhaps only one second or less, it was the strongest and more impressive experiences I ever had.

That was mostly in the late morning when I slept again and I 'wake up on the other side' more lucid as ever.

Then suddenly, in the darkest night of there, I felt like 'a presence in motion' headed in my direction; it was not a person, not an entity, not something possible to be described in any words, but just a general feeling of a presence!
I've seen a very spectacular huge wave - or sphere? - , having like a rainbow on the edge, hitting me, then passing through me and taking me with it. Then I was like broken in thousands pieces, but all of them alive, having a soul, a possibility to see, to understand, to be conscious.  I had the feeling of being, at the same time, inside of thousands and thousands, or millions, of human beings, entities, or objects, planets, and so on... My own sense of identity was not destroyed, but present too, like a witness from above. This life present in so many things at the same time was so extremely intense that I couldn't take it for too long, so I wake up and my body was like trembling!

I was so impressed that I thought: "I met God!"

I never had this kind of experience again.

So, to conclude: what conditions could make this kind of experience possible? Can we ever try to "produce" it at wish?

On the other hand, I was so depressed to not be able to tell to somebody what wonderful feeling I had...It's so sad to spontaneously have such marvelous experiences and to not be allowed to talk about them to no one!!!

Fortunately, I found this forum...

See you,
Tam

I had a very unusual and intriguing experience!

It was like in a lucid dream, but only partial lucid, missing that entire intensity specific for a LD or an OOBE.

I've seen myself having three bodies!

I was sleeping in my bed, when suddenly I've seen myself somehow from all-around, from above and also from the inside too.
I was trying to 'take my second body' and to make use of it!   The second body was next to my sleeping body, the same me, in the same bed, but only moved a little bit on the right side. This image was somehow still united with the first one. Then I was taking my 'third body' into habitual or customary usage! This 'third body' was more on the right side of the bed, like turned on one side...That was a not so visible part united with the other two, somewhere near the head maybe...
I had like an ability or power to use three bodies simultaneously! Also, I was seeing all three from the above.
I said to myself: "I am just doing my duty!" So the duty was like to live in all the three bodies simultaneously!

I don't know why I had three; but all the situation was like very natural! And I was able to feel all of them, at the same time, plus the higher one, seeing all this from the above!
So, I said, I am 3+4 !!!   HA!

I cannot understand this. It's not classical, it's not a dream, and it's not an archetype.

Maybe is this proves that we could have different positions, or states or bodies, yet united somehow?


On the other hand, I felt like not having enough 'will': I was just trying to accept an inner impulse of living in three different bodies (but yet united)  simultaneously; I did 'my job', very natural, very easy, no problems!
 

Don't belief that I was maybe like 'multiplied', like in different personalities!  NO!

I haven't had any impression of fragmentation, no, most over a general impression of 'unity in diversity' ...It was like you feel, maybe at the same time, your kneels, your fingers, your legs!  You cannot pretend that feeling your legs would be like a fragmentation!!!

On the other hand, even in the dream I was aware that all this it's too simple:  I had like an intuition that I should do much more, flying somewhere higher, having a more complex / complicate duty... Being still in my bed, in my room, in my house, it was like a disappointment!
However, what an interesting sensation to have many bodies and to be your own witness, looking from above, at the same time!

Do you think this is only a dream?
How can we have such an imagination?

I've always Had this idea that our dreams and experiences are driving us always one step forward to ourselves...


Have you ever experienced something similar?
What do you think about it?

Tam

Hello everybody!
I found here so many interesting ideas...so I try to share one of my experiences...It's so impressive to 'travel in the astral', but I was never sure that this is a lucid dream or an OOBE... There's such a thin difference between an OOBE and a lucid dream...

Let me give you an example.
Last year, I've tried to be more 'aware' in those OOBE I had, to remember more about 'who I am'! OK, I said, I don't know 'WHO I REALLY AM' ...but what can I do?
I want to remember at least who I am right now, in this not-so-important present of mine...I don't want to go there AND NOT remember that I am there...I want to remember this sequence of life-time , this ID in which I am suppose to be alive now... I want to have a connection between me in the real life, and me inte real OOBE! I don't want to feel like two different persons!

I've start doing a very common psychological practice; repeating in the day time what to not forget in the night time!!!


"Remember who you are, while in OOBE!'
'Do not forget your identity!'
'This is my name, this is who I am now, look at me!'

I was doing this practice every night, before going to sleep.

That was very strong and very effective.
First at all, in the first nights, the 'dream source' reacted like didn't like my practice.
This was so strange and so painful! I was just falling at sleep, then I was remembering my goal - "Remember who you are!'
'Do not forget your identity!' 'This is my name, this is who I am now, look at me!'
...then the dream suddenly was stopping his plot! I was like threw away...out of the dream!
I was awake!
I tried again and again, and the 'dream' was like hesitating, giving me a short movie of hypnological images, then pushing me out of the plot, as soon as I was trying again to 'remember' ...'who I am'!

After a few weeks, I got very tired by not having much sleep or any sleep at all!
So I decided to forget about my practice for a while.
I decided to remember ...not from the beginning, but somewhere in the middle, or in the end; I did it so and the result was quite humoristic!

For instance, I've got in a dream plot and I didn't say ...'who I am' from the beginning; I didn't say anything, pretending to be handle by the dream!
It was something like a party, very important persons of a high society –unknown for me...everybody talking about the 'heights' and someone absolutely important was just coming there. He was a representative of the 'Higher'...
So, when he show up, I stepped in front of him and told him aloud:
'You must know who I am! I remember 'who I am'! I am always remembering you and your dreams when I am waking up, but you don't do the same thing, you don't remember about me when you go back, I don't know where...YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER ABOUT ME!!!'

I was suddenly so lucid! I was looking to him like to a very common image of a dream, keeping a lucid distance between me, a real person, and him, a temporary image!

That was like in a novel by Bulgakov – 'Master and Margareta'!

Everybody was terrified, nobody was talking anymore, it was like a threat in the air... All those people were waiting the answer.
Then the HIGHER GUEST said...
'OK, we will send somebody to you...' (So, he was...'WE'!)

After this, I've start having kind of a power not to get captured by the dream...

In every night, I was just getting in the sleep, when suddenly I was finding myself there, in my room, somehow over the bad, invisible up in the air, having no body and looking indifferently to my sleeping body, sometimes looking to all the family, or to the kitties... Everyone was sleeping, I was up...
Sometimes it was sooo boring...I was getting downstairs and looking to the windows. The light was quite missing, it was almost dark...I was very much aware that I was out of my body, but no emotions...

Then, I've start having a different contact with all dreams. This time, the dream was from the beginning juts a little round light, like on a stage – a light of a reflector; inside the circle, I've seen my image and some one else's, making together the action...I was totally lucid, I was watching just a little bit, like at a movie screen, then I decided to turn my back to all this, and the movie was disappearing... The dream was going away. I was alone in my room.
Now, I am able to repeat this ; I can get out of the dreams and be foe a short time a master of my self.

The dream is taking us like prisoners; it's like a part of a program – first we have to be prisoners of a material reality, then we are like swallowed by the dream, and we forget everything... There are very short periods of time to find a way to be really free...Then, when we really are free, we don't really know what to do with this!

I was dealing with the dream in this way for a while; seeing it like a little 'projection', a movie on a screen, taking it if I want to, not taking it most of the time...

I didn't find a convincing practice or theory about how to dominate your dream from the beggining...
Have you ever had the feeling that the dream is like a ...TRAP??? (I am not talking about the Jungian perspective...)

Did you ever fight it?

What practice should increase the memory...?