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Nobody wants to use it yet they use science's creations on a daily basis.

I'm sure most of the people out there that are anti-science would not be alive to this day if it weren't for antibiotics or medical care. Most of those people wouldn't be able to protest with microphones if science never existed. Yes, nuclear weapons exist, yes, there is pollution - that is why I strongly believe that spirituality and science need to coexist for wise decisions to be made.

I just get annoyed that people constantly drive themselves down dangerous paths of beliefs that get them nowhere. Often times it is harmless, but then there are people that won't listen to science at all and then end up hurting people, such as our good friends who disagree with the germ theory of disease, and would rather have their child die if prayer did not cure them.

Some things will never be possible, no matter how much you believe them. I agree there are unexplained things, and I have had personal experiences with astral projection and psychic phenomena. But stuff like curing diseases and communicating with aliens is far more doubtful.

Observation leads to answers, and answers lead to the truth. We cannot make progress if we forego that vital step of self-doubt.

~Phoenix

I'm Michael, and I'm 17. I want to AP but I feel I have too much to learn on this plane first, before I try out the next. I have fears to beat, and personal truths to discover. I also have things to learn about other people, and about the world itself. I have more to learn about this place first, rather than the next. If the next world somehow informs this one, I'd gladly go, but right now my fear overcomes me, and I'm so confused...

I find it hard to meditate (mainly because I don't do it often) and my head is mostly filled with static. I'm not even sure this set of beliefs is the right for me.

So there's my story.

~Phoenix

[Scepticism is vital to spirituality.]

Now, I'm sure that many of you, probably most of you, cringed at reading the title for this post. Science? HERE!? GET OUT!!! Right?

Allow me to explain myself, in the best way as possible, as I'm not really writing this as a prepared and influential essay, though I do want it to be influential.

The scientific method. What is it, and why is it so important in a place like this? Simply put - it's observation. Observing things under a hypothesis and then drawing a conclusion whether the hypothesis is true or false.

Now, why is it so important? Because we need to tackle and weed out pseudoscience. Pseudoscience and spirituality and mysticism - the three are all different. Don't get me wrong - I do believe in quite a few spiritual things, and that is why I am here, to warn others against falling for things that are dangerous.

Pseudoscience's hypotheses are infallable. If anybody tries to say that it's wrong, or anybody tries to say "Well the evidence is crummy," everyone jumps to hush that voice.

And is it really that dangerous? Yes. Consider it like this. You can pray to God to save a loved one, or you can give him 500 milligrams of medicine once every 12 hours. Which one works? Which one is more sure to work? Careful now, Phoenix, you might be stepping on people's beliefs and toes, and that's not morally correct. Yes, but it's morally incorrect to stand by and do nothing when someone is making a danger to themselves and to others.

Scepticism is vital to spirituality.

I don't know how relevant this argument is to the Astral Pulse - this is the first time I've been here in a looong time, and I'm not sure of the atmosphere of attitudes around on the AP. But let me just say this - scepticism, used correctly, is a friend, not a foe.

Scepticism helps us decide which beliefs to try on for size and which ones are dangerous. There are a lot of beliefs out there that cater for our spiritual needs - we want to be told we are special, that we have a special place in the universe, that there is something divine for us. To an extent I believe this, but I cannot believe things that promise being able to walk through walls or being able to heal disease from 2000km away, of course, all for a price.

So that's where the scientific method comes in. It's all well and easy to believe something, but it's harder to see if your belief is wrong. Observe, and do not place so easily trust in the fact that the hypothesis is absolute. Doing otherwise is to close your mind. And I realise how strong the credo is here - to be open minded.

Science is not closing your mind. In fact, if anything, science and spirituality can go hand in hand to combat beliefs that are dangerous. Beliefs that lead to cults and beliefs that stray us away from longevity and higher standards of living.

I would also like to say that I also agree with the phrase "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." We cannot simply say that psychics don't exist because there is no evidence to say that their abilities are real. But we can say that there is evidence of frauds, so that if there are real psychics (and I believe there are) then you must be VERY careful to avoid the frauds. We cannot simply say that astral projection doesn't exist because science hasn't proved it. Science didn't prove that the Earth was round for quite some time, but then the answer - and the truth - was found.

All I'm trying to say is be careful. It is far too easy to place your beliefs and trust in something that tells you what you want to hear. I believed in many ridiculous things and it lead to a lot of bad things - but it could have been worse. There is a religion today known as Christian Science which apparently (I'm not sure if this is true) denies the germ theory of disease...if prayer doesn't work in healing their child they would rather have it die.

Spirituality has a dark side. Science has a dark side. But pseudoscience and pseudoreligion - science and spirituality's common enemy - are always dark. Be careful.

~Phoenix

Hi there ^_^.

I've been into "otherworldly" things, and consider myself a "new ager" by a few definitions of the term for about 3 years now. I've read lots of things and experienced a bit (but nowhere near as much as some people in here) and I know quite a fair bit. If anything I have definitely grown into a more spiritual person, relating my problems every now and then to the spiritual and finding solutions via my theories and ideas through spirituality.

I've been interested in astral projection for a good while now, but I can't help but feel that the entire field is, rather dangerous.

For those of you that want to say that it isn't dangerous because "all is love" and "nothing can harm you," I don't want to hear it. I've heard it before, and find it tough to swallow. For those who want to say that it isn't dangerous out of experience, well, then we have a case.

I say dangerous not because your physical or even your mental health could be at huge risk, but because of the sorts of experiences you can have to do with all of this. Some of them I would consider...traumatic.

I was haunted for a long time. I don't remember how long. I thought it was a phobia or something but something else told me it was another being. Perhaps I created this other being - I don't know. Either way, I would have nightmares about aliens, "greys" or "zetas", the kind of big-headed ones that so many people are going on about. People suggested I read about them and try to find out more. It worked for about one night when I discovered some cool things about aliens and figured they weren't so bad. Then I read some more and had nightmares even worse than before.

Things like this is what I'm talking about. Someone once posted here on the AP how "everybody who delves into the astral has at least one experience that will scare the living sh** out of them." I don't want to be scared this much. Especially in scenarios such as astral projection where everything is so real. It's not like a dream where you can wake up and dismiss it. It's a hands-on experience into the frightening.

It's also the fact that everything is so unknown. I don't want to get certain gemstones because of their "psychic amplification" abilities which are supposed to be able to reach "angels, spirit guides, and extra terrestrial beings" very easily. I don't want to attract unwanted attention, but the problem with spirituality like this is that every single thought of yours can be considered a potential summoning ritual for something you don't want.

Even if you briefly, for a second, want something, it can be dangerous in this field, it seems. Take for example, you see a hot woman. You look at her. You want her. Then you look back at your girlfriend. The desire is gone, and you realize you care more about your partner than about some very attractive woman, because your relationship with your partner has substance. The same goes for me sometimes. Sometimes I wish I could meet an alien to find the truth. But then I remember that I'd rather not be deceived, abducted, paralyzed, toyed with, or have mind games played on me. I'd rather not accidentally attract negs either.

See what I'm driving at? This entire area of study seems riddled with traps that are incredibly frightening, which makes them dangerous to me, but not only that, the traps are triggered by THOUGHT. And not just long-dwelling though, aimless thought. Even if there is intent there for a second it seems impossible to undo what you've already wished for.

I feel like if I say "I wish I could meet an alien" in my head then I won't be able to stop that from happening to me in my dream scape or the astral world.

I don't know, I've lost my point here....

I guess I'm just trying to say - I'm frightened by all of what this could bring into my mind. I'm scared of being scared sh**less, and scared of having to go through experiences that will traumatize me. I'm not strong enough to just sit back and become understanding and learn from experiences that would have made most people insane. I'm scared I can go insane if I have one of those experiences.

I guess what I'm asking for here is help and reassurance that what I originally thought about all of this stuff was correct, and that I'm safe from all the terrible stories I keep hearing from people.

~Phoenix

PS - sorry for the long post ^^;

The point of telekinesis? I can think of a few:

Firstly it's a challenge. Why climb mount Everest? What's the point in solving complex mathematics? Why find out what the highest possible prime number is? The answer to all of those questions is simple - it's a challenge. It's a defiant test of human ability. Something that you do with all your heart and passion if you want to be really really good. And when you are very good, you hope to achieve a sense of accomplishment.

Secondly, it's somewhat enlightening. I can tell you that when I "perform" telekinesis I have uncovered, or rather, relearned, a very powerful truth about the nature of our universe. And it's so powerful that my conscious mind can only fiddle with words to describe what I've learned. It's one of those deep down meaningful things, like being in love, but not so emotional ^_^;

Thirdly, it's psychically enhancing. If you seek to be psychic and to be able to do psychic things, you practice everything that comes with the package. And because everything is so interconnected, practice in telekinesis should be able to benefit you in every other practice.

The last reason I can think of is that it is like a practical application of meditation - poetry in motion. Like in martial arts, you clear your mind to get the best results and teach your reactions how to move. You feel the rhythm of battle, the poetry and artistry of combat and contact with another human being. You feel secure. In telekinesis, you calm your mind and silence doubtful and outer thoughts to reach a deeper level of thought to be able to control what you are trying to control. It's a way of focusing our minds for the better.

Oh, I almost forgot. It's hella fun ^_^

Hope that helps

~Phoenix

My name's Michael, I used to be on the forum under the alias Fat_Turkey.

I got into the spiritual side of life a few years ago, via "ki" websites. They were a doorway, albeit a retarded one, that lead me along to "psionic" practices, which I gave up out of laziness and bad habit.

Then I discovered meditation, and finally that somehow lead me to here, the Astral Pulse. I read Robert Bruce's NEW Energy Ways and got interested in Astral Projection. I bought his book, but my dog ripped it to shreds when it arrived. I bought it again, and now it's gone missing. T-T.

I'm still very interested in the topic, and spirituality has been a VERY empowering experience for me, giving me a firmer base to build apon to face the trials of adolescance. Though I do not recall many issues being guided by my spirituality, it certainly ruled suicidal thoughts out of my mind for good. Though there were times when issues were resolved (or not resolved...hehe ^^;) because of spiritual things, such as when I used runes to decide things.

Up til now I still have not had an out of body experience or a lucid dream. My dream recovery is good when I want it to be, but most of the time I get swept up in other thoughts and other things. I practice when I'm aware of myself and where I am...though I am still afraid of out of body experiences. I want to experience it, but I don't want to have to go through the exit symptoms...they just scare me. I always get the feeling that a grey is going to show up and scare teh bujeezus out of me as I'm going through exit symptoms (falling, etc, which I've felt before).

~Phoenix

I agree completely. Energy work and meditation have been my guidance thus far, and rituals and things like that have been utterly ridiculous. I was just seeing what magick was really all about and I got afraid because of what I've been taught.

You've both taught me valuable information. Thanks.

~Phoenix ^_^

I'm new to all of this "magic stuff", I was just recently browsing lots of websites about Wicca. So I decided to pop in "Wicca for Beginners" into Google and clicked the first site I found - hah, wiccaforbeginners.com.

This site was all good, it helped me learn a lot about Wicca and I knew a lot already thanks to www.religioustolerance.org.

BUT one thing scared me. Whilst reading this, I was on an IRC room talking about the pentagram with people. One person said that in the Bible the pentagram symbolises a goat's head - ie, Satan. Another source tells me that Satan is not mentioned in the Bible until well into the New Testament, suggesting that the concept of Satan only came about when witches came about, as if the church deliberately made a move to make pagans enemies of the church, which at the time was about as powerful as being enemy of the state. Yet another source informs me that a pentagram is only drawn with a goat's head in it when it is inverted, when it represents matter over mind, and self-indulgence over selflessness.

What scared me was when I was reading over the example ritual magick page, I got really frightened by the fact that when it referred to the God (the pairing of the God and Goddess I'm talking about here) it said "horned one." HORNED ONE. Like a GOAT, or perhaps, a demon!?

I'm not very religious, but I'm very scared. I don't want to pass judgement on anyone, I know that people that practice magick are usually very well mannered people and very nice....but I can't help but feel that the Christians might have been right. That there might be some sort of deception going on here, as if something is playing nice when it's actually being nasty. Just the simple mentioning of "horned one" in reverence to the God (which I thought, up to this point, was just the masculine half of the Divine, joined in unison with the Goddess, the feminine to create harmony).

Can someone please shed some light on this with some good, decent discussion about this? I'm really scared now, because I ordered a pentagram pendant a few days ago, and I really don't want to be wearing a symbol drenched in negative energy...especially seeing as it's coupled with fire agate, the stone of passion.

Thanks to anybody who can help me understand this.

~Phoenix