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Dear Friends,

Often subtle points are overlooked in posts, so I ask that you please get a real grasp on where I am coming from and what I am saying before you rip me to shreds.

As a primer, I am not writing apologetically... that is to say, I am not writing with the intent to convert, proclaim or slant someone's belief.  My entire point is to plainly lay out what is Christianity.  NOT what is a Christian.

First, Christians as a whole, tinkle me off.  I don't like "holier than thou" people.  I don't like their opposite either... those who position themselves as superior through their humility.  I don't like those who take a passive indifference to their own flaws by declairing forgiveness.  I don't like preachy people.

I DO however, love the message.  So let's please not deal with the followers.  Let's instead deal with the point. 

Second, if someone here is a Christian and feels I am in error, they can do what they want.  If I feel that the point they make is valid, then I might reply.  Otherwise, I probably won't.

on to the point.

There is a reason that Christians call the Gospel, "The Good News."  It simply means that God wants to have a personal relationship with you and He is willing to do all the work.  Its not "bad news" and it doesn't mean you "must" do anything.  God does all the work.  All you have to do is thank him once.

Allow me to backtrack for a moment.  The old story goes that there was a judge down here in the South.  He was known to be a firm line on the letter of the law and would always give the maximum penalty.  One day, the doors to his court opened up and in walked the local sherriff with the judge's own son... who had been caught breaking the law in some fashion.  The gallery was awe-struck!  Given the judge's reputation, if he went soft on his own kid, he'd be making a mockery of the judicial system!  But ... to ruthlessly and publically punish his own child would be a slap in the face of how us Southerner's rear our youngins.  So what did he do?  He hit the boy with the maximum fine.  He threw the book at him.  Then he got down off the bench and went over and paid the fine himself.

And that is the Good News.

So many people here don't understand the point.  The point isn't about sin.  It USED to be about sin.  The point is about having a relationship with God.  Sin, afterall, is a Greek word used in archery.  It merely means that you missed the bullseye.  Why would that matter?  Because God is perfect.  God's realm is perfect.  Can you go to God's realm if you are just a teensy bit off base?  No.  Why?  Because then God's realm wouldn't be perfect.  So what to do?  Oh.. yeah... pay for the debt himself.

How do you do that?  Well, lets see... uh... well, let's back up a second.   The primary rule is "free will."  Why?  Because you can't force someone to love you.  You have to give them a chance NOT to love you.  Then when they do, its for real.  Hence, you must have the ability to turn from God, or turn toward God.  Free will.  The freedom to do unspeakable evil, or... to love the Ultimate Ruler.  You get to pick.  Which of course means that God does NOT condemn you to hell.  On judgement day, either you or God is gonna say, "your will be done."  Either God or you get's to decide.  If you don't wanna be with Him, you don't have to be... but He did say... not being with Him would suck (hence, hell).  But I digress.  So God must keep heaven perfect.   So... he breaks the chain of sin (apparently passed down through the male side... females go ahead and say "I told you so!")  Hence, Mary didn't get pregnant from Joseph.  Now, why be "born?"  Well, if you look... the Creator can't enter His creation without causing some serious crap to go down.  The world simply can't stand the awesome presence of God.  SO... He condescends Himself to be born a human being... sinless by the birth without a sperm.  We are born into a fallen world (a fallen world by the choice we had of turning toward or against God... free will again).  God... was not fallen at birth.  So He lives a completely innocent life.  Why innocent?  So that he deserves no punishment.  Then what?  He gets punishment.  He is the perfect sacrifice.  He is:  a) God.  b) Innocent.  c)  Punished.   And that is what pays for all mistakes we make or will make.  "But how do you account for murder?"  We are all murderers.  We tacked Him to a Cross 2,000 years ago.

So with Sin out of the way... what do you do?  Well, you just accept that your debt was paid.  Think of it like this... we're at lunch.  You offer to get the check.  I say thanks, and I mean it. 

Yeah... that's all there is to it.

"But God is a mean and vengeful God!!"  Actually, He isn't.  God is omnipotent.  Oh... by the way... that does NOT mean that God can do anything.  God cannot do anything.  FOR EXAMPLE:

God cannot remember your wrongdoings, once you say thanks.  That's been covered.

God cannot do anything wrong.

God cannot stop loving you.

God cannot take away your free will to love him or not.

God cannot stop you from turning His love away.

Hence... you condemn yourself.  You actively CHOOSE not to be with God... He does NOT choose NOT to be with you or throw you in some burning lake.  He lets YOU decide by your own free will.  You wanna be with God?  Well, the Good News is that all you have to do is say, "Thanks.  I accept your generousity."

Then you love, and do as you will.  OH... will you do all sorts of willingly wrong things?  Well, not if you truly try your hardest to love.  Will you screw up?  Yes.  Don't sweat it.  Its covered.

"But the God of the Old Testament was MEAN!!!"

There are lots of things the Bible doesn't say.  For instance... it DOES say that children younger than the age of reason will always go to Heaven.  It does NOT say what that age is.  Why?  Because some nutjob would go around murdering kids below the age of reason to make sure they go to Heaven.

SO... the first rule is to trust God.  In the Old Testament, there are frequent bouts of God destroying children.  Trust God.  Those kids were below the age of reason.  They were snatched up to go be with God... and had he left them where they were, they wouldn't have stood a chance of getting there.  If a human being did that... the person would be pure evil.  A human didn't.  God did.  Trust Him... he knew what He was doing.

Consider this:  there are moments in the Bible where Astral Travel is spoken... and it is never spoken sinfully.  (nor in those words).  There was a shroud that separated a "holy spot" in the temple from where priests could go and no one else... from the congregation.  This was because only priests could be in the presence of God.  When Jesus died, the shroud was ripped in two... signifying that anyone could now stand in the presence of God.

Perhaps that is also what allowed us to explore God's realm.  I'm not talking about the impressionistic Hollow Heavens or Hollow Hells.  I'm talking about finding out what REALLY is going on.

Frank's Focus 4:   Perhaps how we should all learn.  But what lies above?  Perhaps God.  And what allows us to be there?

Perhaps Jesus.

Can you get out of your own personal Hell?  Well, maybe BECAUSE of Jesus, yes.  You merely change your focus from that hollow hell (repent) and bang... you're out. We learn that in the Astral.

Why?

Because your debt was paid.

Take it in stride.

C

I was just contemplating a philosophical rambling here in order to solidify what I'm learning.  I may still do that however something occurred to me....

Elsewhere on this site there have been threads regarding people attempting to project while under anesthesiological care.  They are unable to do so.

My question becomes one based on that phenomenon.  Many of us know what it feels like to be anesthetised by a doctor (wisdom teeth, minor operation, etc.).  You are tapped with an I.V., you go into the operating room... they plug the drip into the I.V. and say, "OK, I'm releasing the agent, you'll begin to feel very sleepy in just a moment."  You think, "I will?  When will I feeee.... zzzzzzzz"  Its that quick.

And you are GONE.

Now, if your consciousness resides outside of your body, then I would think anesthesiology would cause you to go OBO almost by default.  Your body winds up drugged, your consciousness gets catapulted free prior to phasing into dreamland.

The fact that this does not occur makes me wonder if we are merely exploring our own physical mind during AP / OBE, etc.  If *that* is the case, does our consciousness reside IN the body?  Does it expire at physical death?  

Now, I am a firm believer in afterlife.  For a tremendous study list in this I found this site:  http://www.victorzammit.com/

Anyway, I realize this question is precisely why we have threads on Validation, however... what have people here been able to determine and just WHY do you get knocked out from anesthetising agents?

C

Hello Everyone!

OK, so I've been moving along, deeper and deeper with my practice.  Progress is made virtually every time, however minute it may be.

I've read quite a bit on the forum here and have found some very significant descriptions of the varying focus levels in Monroe's System.  Frank's System is fascinating and honestly, the journal that OutOfBodyDude keeps is inspirational.  Based upon these readings and the in depth fishing I've done through the forum, I've really been focusing my practice on deeper and deeper levels of Focus 10.

Now, I am fairly convinced that I had a real time OBE in my previous thread.  Given the explanations in others and the kind replies in my own query, it all points to the same process. 

So, naturally I read about transitioning.  There is, thanks to Frank an others, a tremendous amount of information on going to Focus 10.

I'd LOVE (and I am CERTAIN) others here would love to hear the process of going from Focus 10 to 12 in that manner of depth.  From Frank's model (BRILLIANT!) from Focus 2 to 3, 3 to 4?

Your experiences?  I'm asking about process and experience because I truly do not believe "method" applies or can be applied at this point in the practice.  Having a "method" would be counteractive to the entire model.

SO, with that, I turn the floor over from the humble question to the more advanced practitioners.

Peace and Love,

C

Hello everyone!!

OK... please read.  I'd really like opinions on this because I am completely uncertain as to what happened to me early this morning. 

Typically, I awoke around 3am ... probably more from habit at this point but it's a great time for me to relax and attempt projection.  I went to the bathroom, brushed my teeth and applied a little Vaseline to my lips since I knew I'd be breathing out of my mouth once totally relaxed... and my lips were a tad chapped.

Returning to bed, I began to relax.   Normally, I stare at the back of my eyelids until my body is very relaxed.  At a point where my body was very heavy and losing physical sensation... my eyes refocus into the black depth out in front of me, where I resume staring.  This time, however, I focused on the objects I saw and let them express their forms in my mind.  The result was a beautiful array of hypnogogic imagery, which I had not experienced in any session prior to this.  Now, in this case, the imagery appeared long before I was completely relaxed, as my intent was to attempt this visualization exercise.

At this point in my session, it was probably approaching 4am.  My wife, sleeping somewhat fitfully next to me was a bit fidgety due to the cold she has, and as a result I kept becoming startled from my exercise.  This really was preventing me from my ultimate goal:  a completely conscious OOBE.  I pressed on anyway, feeling quite comfortable except for the occasional distractive noise.  Then, I heard the cats outside the door playing... then a car horn in the distance... then a daughter using the bathroom down the hall.  By now it was around 5:30am and I decided to scrap the event and just roll over and go to sleep.

I got myself pretty relaxed, saw some hypnogogic visuals and felt pretty good about the progress I made as a whole, so at this point I wasn't disappointed.  I turned over and just let my mind wander... before long, and without knowing it, slipping peacefully (and typically) to sleep.  The last sight I saw was my clock on my nightstand:  5:50am.

I woke up again, kind of surprised that I had to pee.  So I turned, got out of bed and walked into the bathroom feeling kind of groggy and out of focus.  I looked down and decided I'd try something.... I placed my hands on the sides of the sink and HOLY SMOKES!!!  My hands passed right through the sink.  I knew I was dreaming... I don't know if I was OOB, but it was a strange state of consciousness and felt precisely like a dream.  I turned out of the bathroom, wandered into my bedroom and passed right through the door.  Things got strange from there.  I went down the stairs to find myself in a room that seemed totally familiar... but it wasn't my downstairs.  As I reflect on it now, I think it was a strange hybrid of my sister's kitchen, in her house... three states away.  Anyway, they were chopping up a beef brisket and pieces were on the floor where my semi-conscious dog was gnawing away on it.  I turned and went up the stairs but was stopped by an infestation of crabs and shellfish which pinched at my hands and prevented my passage.  OK... I knew this was a dream at this point (weirdness) and just "willed" it away.  Went up the stairs and back into my bedroom.   I decided I'd take a look at my body... which suddenly looked up... and was kind of scary looking... sat up and reached for me... then I was suddenly back in my body again.

That last part... looking back now... must have been a dream as well because my wife wasn't in the bed, but in the physical world, she was.  So I turned over and slept more... then awoke from my dream.

I got up, went downstairs and ran into my family again.  It wasn't unusual... it seemed perfectly normal (but had this been physical I'd have freaked out).  Yep, I was in a dream again.  I had awoken from a dream into a dream.  SO, I tried to show my family that I was OOB.  I put my hands on a sink again (which conveniently appeared) and oddly... they only went halfway in then hit something solid.  My mother was saying "I can see you so how could you be out of your body?"  So I showed her by floating up the stairs.  That wasn't a problem... but I lost the part of my mom and have no idea what happened next.  I was back in my body and I remember thinking, "geez I hope I actually wake up and really wake up... one more of those dream to dream things would freak me out a bit."

I woke up.  I didn't open my eyes at first but my consciousness was the more familiar "physical" me.  I looked at the clock:  6:30am. 

My initial reaction to this is that it was simply a Lucid Dream.  I had a Lucid Dream about having an OOBE.  Then I realized this is precisely what people complain about with all the terminology and so really, I have no idea what to call what happened.  Looking back now, it seemed just like a very vivid, but definitely dream-scape, dream consciousness feeling.  I really don't know what happened.   Dream?  OOBE?  What I read as the "Alice In Wonderland" theory? 


Thanks for reading,

Sean

Hi Everyone!

OK... If I shine at something its finding solutions.  I hope so at this anyway because I haven't been able to get OB yet!  LOL

I did my normal early morning relaxation thing... laying back on the right side of my bed, hands on thighs, quite comfortable.  Now, normally I would imaging a duplicate image of my body laying next to me or standing on the floor to my right (or laying on the floor to my right).  Instead, I did something different and it made transferring my consciousness VERY easy.  Hopefully you'll find some value for yourself.

What I did was mentally reverse the room.  I stayed precisely where I was and moved the room in my head so that I was now on the other side of the bed, with my head at the foot of the bed.  If you were standing there looking at me, I would be effectively in the same location on the bed... the floor to the right of me (since my head was now in the position where my feet would be).  Turn the room 180 degrees and that's the effect.  OK, so now I'm just imagining the room moved.  No big deal right?

Step two... I imagined someone laying over there where I was a moment ago... BINGO!  Instant transfer of consciousness!!

Need further explanation?

Sean

Hi Everyone!

I'm brand new to the forum, so as a matter of introduction, my name is Sean and I'm happy to be here!

I was hoping that some experienced projection-savvy folks might be able to shed light on where I am in the process of actually projecting (I will throw in details too).

I started deep relaxation around 1986.  I simply lay flat on my back, my head either on a flat pillow or just on the mattress.  My hands rest on my hips/hipjoint area (about where pockets would be... just seems natural and easy to let go).  Within a very short period of time I was experiencing a complete loss of body sensation and odd body positional feelings.  My hands would feel like they were turned palm-up rather than palm-down... I would feel upside down or suspended in space... feelings of my body turning or falling.  At one point, around ... oh... I want to say 1990-1991... I had a strange experience where I felt that I was mentally (not a physical relocation) standing in the dark in front of a council of 12 beings (who wore purple robes with hoods that covered their heads).  They gave me a dagger and an amulet.  I fell asleep after that and woke later.  Beats me.  Vivid imagination or something else?  I don't know.

So I gave up on the relaxing a year or two later but recently have picked up again, this time with the intent to have an out of body experience.

Same body position.   I get to a point where I can feel a few points of tension in my body.  My "existence" and focus seem to be almost 100% in my head... looking out of the area of where the third eye is... deep into my closed eyelids -- as if out past them into space.  Sometimes my focus shifts visually from there to directly behind my eyes.  I certainly feel a level of trance of some sort.  Now this is where I am confused....

I let go.  At some point along this relaxation path, my body lets go.  The sensation of my physical body almost completely vanishes... although something odd happens with my breathing and sensation... my breathing begins to go VERY fast and my body kind of ... is completely relaxed but (vibrate?  I dunno... it doesn't feel electric but it is VERY odd).  I sort of feel like my heart is going a zillion miles per hour but its not my heart... it seems more like what I read once is the chest chakra opening up.   

I've read that people experience that then just .. pop out.   Well, I haven't.  I get to that point then try the rope technique but thus far to no avail. 

I'm not sure what to try next or what steps to take (or for that matter, where I am on the path to getting out!  LOL)

Does any of this sound like something someone could shed some light on? 

Much thanks!

Sean