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Some people here understand that the astral has many different height's kind of like octaves on a piano which are commonly referred to as higher planes usually. Saying that is so then it would be equally true to say there are lower planes.

I doubt anyone would want to go to such a place purposely but someone could have stumbled there... My question is has anyone been to what they think would be a lower plane.

Lately I have been trying to project by a visualization method, and there are two similar methods of this that I am trying.
One method, requires one to build a scene in ones imagination without you in it, let the scenery come alive and live of its own and then to step into it.
And the other requires one to build a scene like before but to build it around you already in it as you interact with it.

Well, I have a problem with each and they are kind of similar...

The first, I can get up to the point where it requires one to step into the scene... and then I just cant seem to be able to step into it... I end up just passively watching the scene as a non participant until the allotted time for meditation/visualization is over and I have to move on to other things or until I fall asleep, and when I fall asleep the dreams don't continue the visualization they go off about something else.
I don't mind watching the scenes play out passively at times it can actually be quite a valuable tool sometimes.

The latter I have a hard time visualizing from the first person, its ends up being third person like I am watching a play with myself onstage, with the same issue of just ending up kind of passively watching but in this case I am like a puppeteer where I can control the actions of the me onstage while I sit in the crowd. And same like before time runs along or I fall asleep.

So from the looks/sounds of it I have trouble stepping into the scene over all... and I am  at the point I don't know what to do.
Some fresh eyes, ears, perspectives are welcome. What are some ideas I could try concepts I should think of, I am all ears.

So last night I had 2 rather bizarre experiences, the first one is just a dream but with an unusual end for me.
And the second is a astral projection in a dream, like a dream in a dream in a dream scenario, just not that deep... which is just bizarre in my opinion so looking for a bit of clarity about the whole working order of things or if there is anyone that knows dream interpretation you can have a go, or if anyone has any other ideas or opinions.


The first experience a dream, I was with my two brothers and a friend of mine. We were over at what represented my friends place. It was night and seemed like we were having a party and or a party had just ended. I was walking around his house either looking for something and my brothers were talking to him about what I don't know then the topic switched to what food we wanted to eat. It came down to wanting taco bell and as I was the only on sober enough to drive I was to driver. We all loaded into a pickup truck that had enough room for 3 people, now my brothers sat in each other like ghosts occupying the same space since there wasn't enough room. I start driving down the road picking up speed and things start to get darker, the lights to the vehicle were on but I guess not high enough so I started rolling the dial getting them bright as I could, at this point I began becoming slightly aware but I didn't bother it and let the experience continue. The lights lit up the area ahead of the truck as needed but everything else still continued to get darker and after a bit so did what the lights were lighting also. The truck unusually began to pick up greater and greater speed so much that it would by normal means be hard to control on such a windy road as it was but the control felt fluid in my hands. As we were coming towards the end of the main highway at an intersection everything got really dark but I could still see around me not much more than say 15 feet but in front more than enough to drive. As we were getting towards the end around the last bend in the road there was a group of about 6 people in the road playing around they all seemed to be teens. Now as I drove through this group all of the sudden the truck picked up even more speed on its own and I heard screaming but I didn't hit anyone I still had enough control and road space though there was some close calls, and as I went through everything now literally went black to where I couldn't see past arms length but I could see flashes of color pass by and the dream abruptly ended with a strange feeling that made me not feel well, not a pit of the stomach feeling more of a heart feeling.

On waking I though about the dream a bit letting my feelings settle, usually a dream ends the way it did only if someone "died" in the dream but I had thought about it it was strange, I didn't hit anyone or spin off the road but the dream acted like I had hit someone.
So I decided to sit up for about 2 hours to get my mind off of it and then try to get some undisturbed sleep.

The second experiences was a messed up dream in a dream scenario. Until I mention that I actually wake up every time I mention "I", I mean my dream self in this.
So  2 hours or so from the previous experience  I went back to sleep in a free fall position on my stomach had a bit on my mind nothing about the dream before But My mind was somewhat active and I as I was falling asleep softly spoke mentally I am aware I am aware at times as I drifted to sleep between random other thoughts mostly of how the law of attraction works.

Note what fallows all happens in a dream.. I was on my bed trying to get to sleep I was lying side kind of in a fetal position. My bed sits longways against a wall and I was facing the wall. Everything was vivid, and I had a strange awareness about everything as though I knew I was really sleeping but at the same time I thought the dream me was the real me, like a false awakening. Naturally it is pitch black in my room at night but there was a soft yellow light from where I don't fully know, seemed like it arose out of the floor. I closed my eyes attempting to fall asleep of course everything went black with the closed eyes. After a moment I began to get strange vibration feelings I thought this was some onset of a possible AP. I opened my eyes for a moment to shrug off the vibrations all I wanted to do was sleep as I was mighty tired. Closed my eyes again and the vibrations returned and opened them shrugging them off doing the same thing about two or three times but never moved I was comfortable how I was and didn't want to move, still facing the wall. After the 3rd time or so of closing my eyes I could see through my closed eyes, I happened to look down towards the foot of the bed where I saw a strange shadow at the foot of the bed reaching up shaped like it was the grim reaper but I brushed it off thinking it was just the way the light was throwing shadows which it seemed to take on aspect at that assumption. After that thought a small shadow leapt from the foot of the bed from the foot of the larger shadow and ran along the wall towards me. It was less than a foot tall and as it got closer fight or flight mode kicked in and the mode was fight but I was unable to move from sleep paralysis, though I am sure if I wanted to before I could have moved easily. The shadow ran up so far along the wall closer to me and I started muttering something even I don't know and it kind of veered off back towards the foot of the bed back towards the larger shadow and disappeared. I opened my eyes I thought for a moment and rolled over looked about the room a bit, kind of stretched and reached for the phone and I texted a friend saying or asking something about dreams and the little shadow and would like him to look into something about them later if he could. (My friend works over nights so even irl he would be awake at that time, even my dad was awake at that time because he is an early riser for work.) After texting the message I set the phone back done and rolled over facing the wall again back into the same position. I closed my eyes and could still see through them. This time I decided to attempt to stand up during the vibrations which made them increase and it felt like velcro being separated and sounded like it or static, and as I stood up my head also began to feel heavy. After a push or two I was able to stand up. Still aware or cautious of the shadows feeling that they could still be nearby I said in the name of jesus christ by the power of god begone your not allowed here, in an attempt to ward them off which I chuckled to my self as I don't believe in that aspect and haven't for years. As I thought that and chuckled I became aware and I knew where my body really was and that I had just possibly AP'd from a dream. Looking around everything had grow dark pitch black during my chuckle to myself so I said to myself things like clarity, vision, but stuck with the word focus as it seemed to work and I liked it and said it a few times and I gained enough light to see. I reached down and grabbed my phone and it had a red triangle with a ! mark on the screen and said some data transmission error. My head was still heavy and it sounded like there was still static. I set the phone down, It was becoming harder and harder to lift my head so I was looking straight down I stepped out of my room and could hear all the other electronics in the house making error noises and act on the fritz so deciding to avoid electronics and decided I would get out of the house and then deal with not being able to look up. As I walked further my control become uncoordinated like I was suffering from being drunk or spun in a circle many times and could barely hold myself up. Tried as I may through my uncoordinated movement I fell through the wall into my bedroom and back out again into the hall way. At this point from the feeling in my head and the strain of trying to walk I decided to end what ever was going on and actually woke up irl.

Given the rules to Law of attraction, how does that work with skills?

Quite recently I was having a long talk with a friend on the subject and it tended to come down getting things... or getting healed, getting money, or a new car, fixing a relationship or finding one and a handful of things that fit to those degrees.
But they asked me and I quote "What of skills say example I want to be the best/strongest chess player in the world the grand master, how does that work?"
The question quite floored me, everything I knew of were always about attaining something more physical.
I told him that it should be the same as getting something physical like gaining anything else with the use of the law, if I believe I am the chess grand master then therefore it is and will happen quickly just like getting a car or money etc...

But when it comes to skills those are usually things that one practices constantly for long periods of time until they become a master at it.
I went through and read up on everything I had again about it all, every example I could find but I have not so far found such an example about skills.
Now I may be thinking there is more to it, or it is just like getting anything else and I am just fooling myself and overthinking it.

I would like to know peoples thoughts about this, and if anyone has any examples please share.

[Sparring, Body Energy, Universal Love Questioning]

As it is roughly the start of the year I figure I will try to start and keep one up here for a while.

Only real changes I will make are to keep out personal items and keep it PG, E for Everyone or what not.
I may post older dreams I have if they have any significance or relation to any current one.
I may give a title for subject matter.
I will give some before/after thoughts/comments if the dream had something to do with something that occurred before hand during the day or week for detail/understanding sake.
I do not mind comments or questions, if anyone has feel free to post.



Sparring, Body Energy, Universal Love Questioning
After Afternoon Nap 1-8-017

It was a long dream but what I remember was I was walking, on my right were a few friends talking among themselves to my left were two girls dress in an Amish style one in her teens the other around 5-6 years old. The area was earthy I don't recall what it looked like I just know that it was earthy. I went up and started sparring with the sorceress supreme from the doctor strange movie, she kept her smile all the time like in the movie. We sparred not with magic but in a strange form of martial arts. She placed her arms palms face up and I set my elbows in her hands and grabbed her elbows with my hands palms face down. In this method it was like trying to control the movements of your opponent or using their movements against them or something along those lines, she treated it is as if she were teaching. She did a few movements with her feet as though she were attacking with kicks and making smiles as though she were gaining points in the spar. I didn't quite get why she was making faces as I didn't think if it was even apart of the sparring I though it was more kind of like she was stretching in a weird fashion almost showing how well she could move in the situation so that I could understand. Every time the spar actually took place I either won or it was a stalemate. Even though it was treated as though she was teaching, her face let in be known that she knew quite well my range of abilities and if a fight were to occur between us the outcomes of the spars were a fairly accurate representation of what the fight would be. After sparring for a bit we took a break, I walked off towards a mirror and the older Amish girl came up from behind and pressed her finger into my back and said something like "you will never be loved by the divine/higher self/universal" I don't recall specifically but it was along those lines. I continued on to the mirror confused slightly. When I got to the mirror in it you could see the body like in a science fiction movie with info tabs all over the place giving details and information on the body. The mirror could show all fashions of the body form chakras, meridian points, chi, physical representations of muscle, skeletal, organs, circulatory even a version where the body looked like a light blue ghost, and all sorts of others. I was looking at a version that showed a clear body and meridian points and some sort of energy flow, and in front on the opposite side of where the girl pressed into my back was a point with an info tab next to it. The info tab had a % bar at zero and read something like the love the divine has for me or the love I hold for the divine. I was mighty confused at this, I though for a moment about universal connection of everything, I know I am not a bad person I love people, places, things, animals, everything. And by this connection I know that it would be impossible to not be loved in return by the universal. So I tried to concentrate kind of like a meditative boost and the percentage bar would bounce up and then drop back down, I tried a few times and each time it would bounce up and then drop back down never passing 27% or so. After a bit I got bored and quit not really caring and went back to sparring with the sorceress. After a bit we quit and she said she was having a problem like pain or something, she laid down on her stomach and exposed her back and I knelt down and ran my hands down her back as though looking for something. There was a point higher in her back than where the girl had pressed into me, I ran my hands down once more like I was creating energy movement when an older Amish lady came up and tried moving me aside saying let someone else do it that knows what they are doing. A feeling of malicious intent crossed my mind and I refused pushing her aside and then pressed my thumb on the point on the sorceress's back as though I was pushing energy into it. I then woke up.

Deja vu tends to be a scarce topic in that I cant find much information on it in metaphysical terms. I know the scientific definition of Deja vu and it feels to be off.


I get bouts of deja vu that can last for long periods of time almost up to an entire day but not necessarily where I recollect a past event.
An example, I had a dream involving my grandmother in the kitchen making hot coca, the dream itself also had that deja vu feeling. I wake up ponder about the situation it has never happened before. About a month later the actual event occurs with the deja vu feeling, and down to exact detail as far as I have been able to tell.
Deja vu sets in dreams like that have occurred many times, one about riding with a friend driving across state, a couple about reading books that I do not own only to have the books later while reading them with the deja vu feeling but also with a strange feeling I know all this I have read this before but in physical reality never have.

Another example and the harder to believe happens involving movies. Example, I watched the movie miss peregrine's home for peculiar children recently on its release. During the whole movie I had the sense of deja vu, that I had watched this movie before. And not like oh this part is similar to that movie and that part to that one, literally in that I have watched it before. Only that I haven't but I could tell you the entire movie in detail long before it was over. Over pondering for a memory of the event it felt like I had seen the movie a year before. It is sorta like I watched the movie in a dream but when I think about the before had deja vu of it, something deep is going like no you've seen this before, physically, which is impossible because the movie didn't exist before hand to have watched it. This case has happened with about seven movies, a few books.

A final example as a stretch I was talking with a friend about other people in general he was trying to hook me up with someone when he mentioned a girls name, I piped in oh so and so her birthday is xx she has brown hair yay tall etc etc. And dumbfounded a tad he asks how I know all that and I told him that he told me because I was having deja vu over the conversation and that I just jumped to the end. And he goes about to tell me that we never have had that conversation before because it was impossible because the girl started working at his job only 3 days before and that he hadn't told any of his friends yet about the new employee. TO say there was a good bit of silence as we pondered it out.

Upon talking with friends that have views in metaphysics / supernatural, the common subject that arises is about multiple lives in that I could be living this life over again, and/or could possibly change the outcome from what it once was to something new if I were to become minutely aware of what the original path was. And then the subject tends to go off into changing time and creating multiple dimensions where in that one you did this and this one you did that and the whole time travel loops and stuff. But even their understanding/knowledge of deju vu events seems to be limited.

So Id like to know more about what deja vu could be.

  So I have recently read on information from Kurt Leland about how some dreams can be personal dream zone simulations to help deal with problems, answer questions for waking life and more and even the same for higher states of consciousness lessons as it is a personalized zone. And that at this area or simulation experience anything can be answered.

So my question would be how would one present a problem or question to be answered?
None of my questions are whats the winning lottery numbers or anything like that, they would fall under life's purpose, personal spiritual/consciousness growth and the such.

 Okay so lately I got back into trying to AP after a few months of hiatus.

Aside from trying about mid day after a nap using personalreality's method from his How I Got Out For The First Time post, I also try a way of going about using Lucid Dreams as a spring board. First I attempt becoming lucid in a dream and then trying franks becoming curious idea about one thing in the dream to have it dissolve and become the true astral or how shall it be put a higher Focus I think.
Well going about this I am having a strange issue which is odd to explain. I am "dreaming" about becoming lucid... but not really becoming lucid, I just dreamed that I was... I think. If anyone understands what I am talking about please help me figure out what is going on as I would like to be able to fix it.

Also when I do get a actual lucid dream or something like stated above I always try to fly up out of earths (or which ever planet thing that I am on) atmosphere but when I do I always hit about cloud level and then there is like a barrier or force field that prevents me to go any higher and trying to get past it usually causes the current experience to end and me to wake up. This never happened when I was younger I used to always go out deep into space but defining earth as home and fear of being lost I would always stay close enough where I could find earth. Anyone know why this is happening?

Now though I do talk about dreaming a lot in this, this might be moved to the "Dream" area of these forums and I wish it doesn't because my end goal is the true sense of AP, that is what I am aiming for. I personally believe that lucid dream's and astral projection's are one and the same just at different levels... much like Franks definition that an lucid dream is an AP but just in a lower level (focus) where it is all emotion based creation.

Greetings all,

So I have been a lurking around this place for.. a while now and finally thought it was time to join in.
Of course for similar reasons that most people tend to register themselves, requiring help of some sorts with Astral Projection.
A few years ago I had my first run ins with the "vibrations" and of course then like many before me I thought I was dying of some unknown abnormality. Of course I learned of what it really was and since then I have had some on and off again attempts at projecting and over the past few weeks I have picked it up again with some unknown vigor or need.

What brings me to this place is to a degree many of Franks posts and his concepts of the astral and how to get there and the such, and yes I have read Monroe's books and understand where some of Franks terms come from and I also have knowledge of electrical applications that make their explanations understandable. But I like the way Frank has described things better as they feel less technique"y" . Sad that I never came about all of this sooner as I would liked to have a chat with some of the earlier members that don't seem to be active any longer. And also I am drawn here due to Personalreality's post, How I Got Out For The First Time, which has also sped things along past a few blocks so far. I have been about on other forum's and such before usually asking simple questions but I have since stopped using such places as there tend to always be drama, pushed opinions, and a jumble of miss information.

That's about it I think.