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[Originally posted by Tia:]

(This was originally posted in response to Tia's comment in "New, Need help"  but grew into a very long posting, so I broke it off from that thread)

quote:Originally posted by Tia:
My idea of meditation is to be without thought.  It's really hard to stop the mind from grabbing every little insignificant thing and carrying it along.  If you can stop all the surface thoughts then you allow 'things' to come to you that exist on a deeper level.   It's  like listening for the important stuff that's deep inside you, but first you have to clear the mind and all that thinking, so you can hear it.

Tia, I couldn't have said it any better.

I think the core problem is that most people think "oh, control my mind, no problem".  Actually, I think it's really HARD... All day long I have that monkey-mind problem.  

It's harmless sometimes, but there are other cases such as the following:
1) Dwelling on your hatred of a job, place, environment, activity
2) Looking too sharply at other peoples' faults (too critical)
3) Pre-judging people you haven't met
4) Having too much of an ego about your abilities or strong points

These kinds of cycles become self-induced and self-feeding sources of pain or egotistical pleasure for your mind.  This can be seen when people put down others continually just to feel better about themselves, or people who complain all the time.  I fear that I am especially prone because I tend to focus very sharply on problems, leading me into these kinds of traps.

I tend to think that me being a software engineer has something to do with it. In the computer field we are always looking to break down a problem into its fundamental levels, design a solution, and implement it.  We are taught that everything has a logical solution and that if it doesn't work right then you just need to find what's wrong and fix it.  Simple as that.  Real life isn't so easy, and there is no "cure-all'.  Sometimes you just have to make due and realize that there's no magical way to make yourself 100% happy 100% of the time, no matter how hard you try to change and rearrange things.  This may sound simple, but I am fairly young and arrogant, and it took me a while to get un-stubborn and realize these things.

After doing meditation and understanding lots more about thought control I have come to realize these problems with myself.  These days I tend to catch myself and break the cycle a lot sooner.  I shudder to think had I gone another 10-20 years without understanding this important fact.  It would have been a lot of wasted energy on my part.

It seems that often, the people who get farthest in their careers and are the most happy are often the ones who are the nicest, most friendly, most centered and loving people who freely share their knowledge and collaborate with others without any presumptions.  IE.. people who don't build walls around themselves by trying to argue their way to the top, put down their coworkers, hide their knowledge, etc.  This is no accident, I believe.  To truly excel you must realize that you are no better than anyone else.  You have to cut loose, let go, and get real.  People will love you for it.

Out of curiosity, have you ever had any sudden moments of insight during a meditation session?

Thanks,
Justin

I'm not quite sure what you're asking, but I'll tell you what feelings I get when I do trance meditation:

I like to start with a focus exercise (to get rid of daydreams.  Are you doing the opposite?) where I hold the number 1 in my mind as long as possible without breaking focus (I usually go up to 6 or 5)

Next, instead of falling or floating down, I try what some one else has called "turning the sleep key" (this is just giving yourself the feeling of nodding off to sleep.) until my body gets heavy and I continue to stay focused on either nothing or on my breathing.  What I haven't figured out how to get on command is the feeling of largeness/swolleness/feeling of being far away, which I consider to be reaching the trance state.

Blah blah blah...maybe I've said more than you wanted, but the point is, I think you would do well to stay up all night this Friday and look for the feeling of sleepyness.  Pay attention to how you feel in this state and I guess you should be able to "simulate it" for your meditations.

I think that is interesting. I haven't tried various types of breathing like you. I am reminded of buddhist practices that breathing is what sets the body in one state or another.

I have noticed that there is a shift in my breathing when I hit a good F10 state. The breath is more down the back of my throat, it is fuller, and it is a little raspy.  but beyond being a marker for me as to when I really am in F10, I haven't played with breathing. I am curious what others have to say.

Patty

1) why deal with them? are we meant to change everyone we meet so that they become us? i hardly think so. just treat them the same as you would anyone else. if you don't care about things, why should others not care about them? just do what you do.

2) you get lots of cool toys to play with!  :p

~kakkarot

Secret of Secrets

[deep]

A quick note, I keep seeing a phrase similar to 'forcing the eyes to roll up.' I initially tried this same thing, and it did nothing for me. Very recently, in the past few days, I've been getting better at deep trances, and I find the tendency is for my eyes to automatically roll up, if I let them. Just thought I'd share.

bitsmart -
information illumination -
bitsmart@bitsmart.org -

Part of my personal technique involves staying awake while drifting into sleep.  Sometimes on the verge of sleep I will have strange experiences that jar me back awake. This can happen up to half a dozen times in an evening.

I have not had the ones you describe. Usually I have a muscle spasm, once I heard a HUGE explosion of sound, like an atomic bomb (I imagine) going off somewhere, there might have been other things but those two come to mind. I had always figured that since my intent was to stay awake, that either my subconscious or my guides were providing a mechanism to help train me to stay awake into sleep. I usually appreciate the help.

Yours sound more like exit symptoms though I haven't heard of ear popping exactly.



Patty

Hey Justin!

Sure, I can relate.   My first ever projection, I am 95% certain was really an external projection. It relates well to your sight thing - I couldn't see at first. When I tried to 'see' I felt my eyes opening/body rousing so I stopped trying to see. I then thought of 'allowing myself to perceive.'  I could instantly see without any disturbance to my body.

This business of 'allowing' something is amazing. It is like dropping personal blocks, beliefs, or whatever. It's like a mental acceptance, a state of dropping ego.

So instead of trying to 'force' sight on the experience, try 'allowing' it to be there.  I'm curious if this works for you.

That being said, my later experiences might be dreams, the vision in them is different than the first flight. the later ones seem more plastic or moldable.  The first was definitely me in a place where things had an external concrete  reality, the later ones are more like if I wish it, it manifests. But still, I am able to verify details of those later flights which makes me think they are somewhat representative of an OBE state.

Heh - I put my face through the floor once. That's a tough one! I gave up on it, too. My few travels last night (which fall in the probably - but - questionable category)  were mostly around the house, and definitely did not absolutely reflect the light level, etc of the physical house. At one point my husband's astral form was in bed, despite the fact that he was still awake in physical reality.  Who knows.  I am thinking that the experience is valuable on a personal level regardless - though I definitely am looking for the beyond-doubt variety too, hopefully followed by having such a grand experience on a regular basis.

Nice to know there are other's around to talk with about it all.

Patty

My biggest problem with the trance state is that when I am in a trance if I am in a trance I am unable to evaluate my mental state objectively. Nothing I do seems to work.

Hahah
That happens all to often with me
arg

[][][] <-- boxes --> [][][]

Justinh

just keep practicing, it is better if you don't try toohard because that creates more tension, and you want to be really relaxed to OOB. Don't forget that not many people can consciously OOB, it usualy happens just before sleep.

Astralc

www.shoal.net.au/~astralc

While I cannot do conscious projection yet, I have tried to do meditation regularly and have had phases of trying lucid dreaming. With lucid dreaming and over a year of recording my dreams, I found that the more effort I put into it the worse my results were. It was when I was not trying to have lucid dreams that they were most likely to appear. If you record how often you have lucid dreams (and do astral projection) and how well you recall the content then the information you gather will help distinguish between temporary situations and long term patterns. Often I mistake my temporary situations for permanent, unchanging situations.

I don't think I ever forced my re-entry.  I just ended up waking up later.  Also, these memories didn't come right away.   I had to spend a few minutes recalling them, but they were easy to recall.

Now, I am not eager to claim that I have done something that I haven't done.  I am after the truth, not lying in order to get fame or acceptance, but I don't think this was simply a dream.  I could give the old excuse of "it felt too real", but dreams can feel real also.  No, instead, I am going to say that the continued interaction with my physical body as far as breathing and sight was concerned is unlike ANYTHING I have ever experienced in my 21 years on this planet.I think this is more than a self-induced fantasy about projecting.  I guess it was silly for me to think that my first OBE would have me gliding around through walls with ease, which is what makes this all the more compelling:  it was very clumsy. A simple dream would have been much better orchestrated, like a movie, and probably would have involved otherpeople (and no interaction with my physical body).  It's funny... I just always thought "getting there" was the hard part, and that the exit was automatic, but this was the opposite.

Overall, it was a mixed bag.  The projection, time-wise, was probably around the ultrashort range, which was why my recall was so good.  There's no doubt that I did sleep, as I can recall another unrelated dream as well.  It's 11:45 AM asI write this.  Now, all this being said, could this have in fact been a spontaneous projection?  I didn't intend for this to happen at all.

As a test, after writing this, I just layed down in much the same position, and observed the couch-cam view that I had during this OBE.  It looks exactly how it did in the OBE.

I just hope I can use this experience to more easily induce future ones.  I have that silly "couch-cam" experience to remember this one by.

Thanks Robert Bruce for such an awesome handbook and the desire to put together such a great set of resources and
online community.

Justin

interesting stuff- i bet if you could "slow down " again you could use that as a way to get in trance.
do you get body rushes after quietting the mind? could be the influx of energies similar to what is described in AD with the NEW energy.
i have found the desciption of trance to out of body in AD to be very accurate.
the sensations can be very intense and distracting.
the idea of focus is something i have thought of also, with no answer. i seem to drift off to a dream state before waking/dreaming out of body-if you are too focused it seems to keep you too awake but if you loose it you drift into sleep.