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Topics - Patty

#1
G'day Robert!

You mentioned recently that you might put together a treatise on Kundalini.  I was wondering if that is still in the works? I realize you are busy, and that it might be secondary to other projects. :)

I ask not because I am in any rush to get started on the process, but because we are discussing the topic elsewhere so currently my mental state is 'fertile ground' for ideas revolving around Kundalini.   Your initial experience was a fascinating read.  

I am also looking at things with Jungian lenses these days, due again to conversations we are having elsewhere on the web. Apparently Jung wrote about Kundalini himself. Here is an essay on Jung and Kundalini you might enjoy - and I am wondering if parts of it resonate from your experience?

Warmly,

Patty


quote:





One enduring statement that C.G. Jung made late in life about not having to be a Jungian reveals much of his attitude towards the psyche. He saw his scientific role as a phenomenologist always open to the ambivalent and many aspected ambiguous intrusions of the unconscious into the ego field of conscious existence. He saw the ego loosely attached to a vast impersonal realm of the Self, which, in his later works he presented as the only objective and fundamental reality human beings could connect with. From this perspective the multi-layered, and to the conscious being, bewildering, complexity of the soul's functions was as fleeting as the Buddhist Maya. The west sees this Maya as the reality, and focusing our civilisation on the mastery of externals has produced its own catastrophic psychic disfunctioning as the values of internal reality have been neglected.

Jung saw the Indian speak not of Personal/Impersonal, Subjective/Objective; but of a personal consciousness and Kundalini. The two were never identified: the Gods were utterly different from humans. It was necessary to live through, and establish, a presence of stable consciousness within the world before it was possible for the detachment to gradually emerge which would permit that other, objective reality to connect with the conscious. Jung's journeys to Africa and India enabled him to confirm his experiences of the unconscious as he saw the visible proof of its functioning in the pre European modes of his own era. His description of how, in the myths of the Pueblo, where the emergence of conscious from a dark and very dim beginning proceeds through a series of caves one above the other to a full awakening on the surface of the earth in the light of the sun and moon, parallels the system of chakras outlined in Kundalini Yoga, as the development of the impersonal life.

Jung was aware of the existent texts on this subject, from Arthur Avalon's translations from Sanskrit to the Chinese 'Secret of the Golden Flower' a Taoist manual translated by Richard Wilhelm, a key figure in Jungian life whose deep knowledge of Chinese esotericism enabled him to formulate a number of basic concepts of psychology, among them the theory of synchronicity -(a concatenation of events linked by a single meaning). Jung's interpretation of the process of Kundalini did not, however, stem from theories. It was the consistent attention he paid to the indications of its movement within the psychic life of his patients that gave the conforming clues to the emergence of the impersonal life of the collective unconscious. He was keenly aware of the dangers of the ego becoming inflated by the stirrings of unconscious contents to the extent of total psychic imbalance. Temporary identifications could make the ego lunatic for a time; prolonged identification could produced schizophrenia. The structure of Indian systems on the other hand drew clear distinctions between the transitory and permanent self which could only be realised in a state of detachment. The gods, in European or modern man so efficiently focussed on outer existence, Jung described as being reduced to mere functions 'neuroses of the stomach, or the colour or the bladder, simply disturbances of the underworld.' The Gods being asleep stir in the bowels of the earth, as the idea of God in conscious life is remote, abstract and to one level of modern theology, effectively dead.

In the ideas of pre-European civilisations is reflected their identification with the various levels of the chakras. However, it was in the careful unravelling of the psychic life of his patients in their journey towards the impersonal self which he described as the process of individuation, that the Kundalini manifested. This gave his statements of the chakras a verification based on real experience. He concluded that the main level of activity of most people was in the lower three centres beginning with the Muladhara (literally, root support), where existence was established, through Swadistana (the manifest creativity in the personality) and to Manipur and Void, centre of emotionality, the Red Sea of the Old Testament whose crossing to the Heart (Anahata) required the discipline of the Guru both individually and collectively. At the heart the first intimations of the Self reach consciousness. The Purusha, whose tiny flame of eternal being establishes the domain of objective reality. If, as Jung suggests, enough people could connect with this level the mass psychoses of out modern era would vanish altogether.

Jung saw each chakra as a whole world in itself. At the level of Muladhara for instance is the earth, our conscious world, but also where instinct and desire is largely unconscious -a state of participation mystique. Reason can do little: storms of emotion or externally, war or revolutions can sweep all away. The bizarre elaboration of weapons in the modern world is nothing more than an attempt to contain or destroy the threat of impulses from the lower centres. Worse, much of it is an expression of them.

Jung found the stages of individuation of his patients elaborated through dream and symbol corresponding with those of old mystery cults. In baptism he saw a reflection of the dangerous journey of analysis itself - baptism being a symbolic drowning to inaugurate a new life.

Jung realised that arousing the activity of Swadistana, the Kundalini itself had to be aroused, but he also realised that such happenings were spontaneous, and not produced through the dangerous practices of Tantrism where the exalted idea of shakti, the pure Kundalini, is degraded into the literalism of a sexual cult. Jung never practised any form of organised meditation but saw the attention itself gathered into deeper levels of being by the motion of the unconscious self through Kundalini awakening. Further, the motion of anima leading into the depths of the unconscious, he recognised as an imaginal figure projected by Kundalini and identified with it.

In the various symbols surrounding the chakras Jung identified with his own system. The Muladhara with its image of the elephant (Hindu Ganesha) has a fourfold structure of psychic functions (the chakra has four petals) and corresponds with the world of consciousness. The heart with its symbolism of the dear projects images of lightness of being, swiftness and elevation. Beyond; Vissuddi, Agnya and Sahasrahra - he said little except that as fully developed centres they were so above ordinary consciousness that not even thought could offer any illumination. Essentially he came to the view that, from the standpoint of the gods, the great archetypal figures, the world is less than child's play, a seed, a mere potentiality for the future. People, and they consist of the vast majority, who pass through life unawakened and unaware, victims of outer circumstances and inner compulsions, have not lived at all and pass back into the universal unconscious, to quote Socrates; 'the unexamined life is not worth living'. To Jung the awakening of Kundalini out of mere potentiality is to 'start a world which is totally different from our world: it is infinity'.

John Henshaw




Patty
#2
Welcome to Astral Chat! / check out this website
September 30, 2002, 18:51:18
http://www.asdreams.org/

Very comprehensive!

Patty
#3
Is it my imagination, or does the forum (and it's boards) load more slowly that they did a month ago?

Patty
#4
YEAH! when im meditating sometimes i feel my right arm kinda pulling away but i cant tell if im lifting my right arm or what so when i felt like my right arm was about an inch of the rest i opened my eyes and sure enough ther it was lying flat.! SWEEEEEEEET
#5
Hi. :) The word purist did not really occur to me. Yes, what I am looking for is a clear and distinct separation from the body and full use of all of the senses in the astral body. That probably meets the definition. That is what other people here are having, right? And they are reporting back that it really does feel more real than physical reality. Back in '90 and '91, I briefly had this sort of experience while trying to teach myself meditation. Silver cords, guides, tours, and even physical verification of experiences afterward sound okay. All of that seems unimportant to me, though. Proof is for other people. We have our experiences for our own benefit.

There are a lot of types of out of body experiences. There are even people who do not go into a trance and can talk about what they are seeing during the experience. If that is the goal you are trying to accomplish and you succeed at it, great. If this is not your goal, then success with it will just be another step toward the experience you are looking for. It sounds like the experiences you had are not what you were trying to accomplish. They are probably steps on the way to another goal. The reason for my guess is that you used the word trauma. The fact that your experiences convinced you is enough. You are not under any obligation to convince other people that it was real. The question which remains is what sort of experience are you working toward accomplishing?

Sure, there have been experiences along the way. Reiki and other energy sytems have produced results. Nothing objective, but still enough to be helpful for me. A few times I saw auras in color around several people at once. A few times every year I have lucid dreams, and sometimes as often as several in a month. My intuition has become more active and has helped in having fewer minor accidents. It has even helped to avoid a few more significant problems. Meditation, physical relaxation, and trance states are all getting easier. One of these days, I expect to have all of these things regularly and on demand. Until then, their random appearances are enough to motivate further efforts.
#6
Hi Patty!  I'm afraid I don't have an authoritative answer to your question, but I just wanted to drop you a line to say hey, glad you're back, nice to see you're having OBEs . . .

Here's my take on things:  Sometimes you encounter an energy phenomenon that you don't understand.  So, your brain makes something up, something understandable, to get you through the moment.  This happens both in the ordinary world and on the Astral.  That's it!

I don't know if that explains your OBE, but this theory has helped me through many a moment . . .




Tisha

"As Above, So Below"
#7
Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! / Who Am I?
November 29, 2002, 17:34:42
quote:
Originally posted by Patty:

So then my thoughts on what is self, what am I, leads me to emotion. This meditation takes me away from emotion. Despite the fact that I value my emotion. I think that it is this. I think that in this focus, the emotions are not repressed or controlled, they simply are not present.
Patty



Yes my precious, yes.

quote:

I need a useful metaphor for this idea of emotions, self, and so on.



A useful one that comes in handy for me is to think of a water fountain. Not the kind you drink from but the ones that create a fancy display.

Thought (in Mystical terminology this energy I think has been called Prana or Chi; and other names like that) being a primary energy is the water, and the nozzle of the fountain is the mind. In other words, you could have many different nozzles that create many different fountain displays: but they are all powered from the same pool of water.

Each person's mind is connected to the same supply of thought. But where things differ (and often differs radically) is how each person uses their mind to manipulate this basic energy and forms what we commonly call an "individual character". Which is basically a person who has decided to modulate the incoming thought energy in much the same way over time.

Yours,
Frank



#8
Hi Patty, I have noticed that the amount of control I have in lucid dreams correlates strongly with how vividly I am experiencing the dream...on some occasions, I know that I am lucid, but I am only "semi in control" ...and at the same time, my recollection is often more vague.

i think that this has something to do with the speed upon which the mind exits the dream state. If the mind exits quickly recollection is low - if you linger in a lucid dream, then the chances are that you will have more vivid recollections.

As for the bed - I haven't got a clue...
but the smell of roses rings a bell....Gabriel garcia marquez uses it quite often as a symbol of death. There is a good short story called "the sea of lost time" that uses this symbol very well.
Mark

#9
Welcome to Astral Chat! / Just feeling really down.
September 09, 2002, 16:05:50
Hi Patty,

I know the feeling all to well.Not long ago I was in a real low myself due to many time consuming issues as well as emotional baggage that most likely will never see an end.But as of recently that deppresing fog has lifted and my spirits are up and motivated.

Though I have nothing to say that will help your spirits immeditly ill just remind you that in time all things will pass.Soon happiness will be back on your side . http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile.gif" border=0>

For humor check out jeffs joke page,personally I find  most of it funny."
MyJokeMail.com

May peace be with you!


#10
Welcome to Astral Chat! / Just popping in to say hi
September 08, 2002, 06:53:28


Hey, Patty, I was wondering how you were. Welcome back!

Yours,
Frank

#11
Welcome to Astral Chat! / See ya later!
August 05, 2002, 17:35:02
That sounded more blunt than I intended. I just need to go within for a while. Maybe a month. Getting too addicted to the computer, it happens.

Patty
#12
If you've used the imagery to fall asleep then it should be a good tool for OBEing as well (IMHO). Just modify the goal a bit so that you don't loose awareness. If you can affect the imagery the try to concentrate on forming a stable image as a way of keeping your concentration strong.
For me the imagery is bad in the sense that I get lost in it. I have to find a way to rid my mind of it altogether and stilling the mind seems to do the trick.

I doubt that your energy body can run out of energy if you live a healthy life, get enough rest and manage to keep relatively stress free.
It may be that you're trying to teach yourself a lesson. Maybe that you don't *really* need a specific technique to achieve the goal but th eright mindset or something.
Maybe examining the way you feel before an attempt and the after the attempt would shed some light on the issue. It may be that you need to do something else get be able to proceed (Tom reported a dry spell on the thread "Inhibiting natural talent" or moe such). I don't think one can force an AP any more than one can force any kind of spiritual development.

Here's the bone http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile_big.gif" border=0>: Persistence will work but persistence doesn't mean hitting your head against a wall. It means that you need to take a step back and look for the door.

I have any amount of energy in exchange of the Russian stout you bragged about http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile_big.gif" border=0>http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile_big.gif" border=0>

2cents

jouni

#13
Thanks for posting that account, Patty.  I really found it interesting.  I have probably been projecting just as loing as you, but every time I "get out", instead of doing something scientific, I am still so excited to be FREE that I end up doing stupid crap, like showing off how I can stick my arm through walls!

I did have someone from alt.out-of-body try and get me one time when she was out of body, and although I don't remember the interaction with her, she was able to describe my bedroom in detail.  I thought that was pretty cool in itself.

The only "hit" that I have had (that I can remember offhand) was when I projected from one side of my house into a room near the kitchen, and I heard a couple of men faintly talking in there.  When I returned to the body, I found out that someone was listening  a talk radio station in the kitchen at the time.  But I take things like that with a grain of salt, and I try not to read too much into them.



Keep smiling,

Jeff Mash, Founder and Editor
MyJokeMail.com - Jokes and Humor
http://myjokemail.com
#14
Congratulations!

#15
1) I'm looking for confirmation of my belief that we are more than meets the eye
2) No big revelations yet, but I've come to view life as a practical course of existence where we try to to the lessons of the spirit levels to practise. Anyway, for me it's nice to know I can always take the course again. I have a whole story written somewhere if anyone wants to read. Oh wait, one thing comes to my mind. There is a saying in Finninsh than translates to something like "Everyone is the maker(lit. smith) of his destiny" . I believe that to be true.

jouni
#16
heh, whenever i go lucid, i ALWAYS think other people are dreaming WITH me, its like a bad habit. i start talking to them, making them realize theyre dreaming. i know we're not all connected through dreams, but whenever i do dream, i believe this is true. its weird every time too. o well....

*Signiture*

"Think about giving it your all today. Then think again."
#17
I got out of bed, walked over to the bathroom to try to identify the playing card that I set out before bed. I have two 'decks' that I am using. One (deck A)is just red aces and black face cards, and from that deck I want to identify simply red ace or black face card (odds of success, 1 in 2). The other deck (deck B)is standard, and I want to see if I can identify the exact card and suit. (this requires far more precision, odds of success 1 in 52). (Let me say at the outset that I 'failed' in identifying the cards precisely, though I did accurately see a black face card for deck A. This sort-of result is what I often encounter.)

First, for deck A, I saw the ten of clubs. I was puzzled. I didn't immediately remember if I had tens in the deck or not. I thought about it, and decided that I had not included tens with the face cards. So I pick up the card, and it changes to the J of clubs. It changed to another black face card after that. I thought "Man, this sucks." I tried to mentally force the card to change to the 5 of diamonds, to see just how much plasticity was in the environment. The card started to change to the five of diamonds, but then snapped back to a black face card. I set it down, cleared my mind a bit and looked at the card - king of clubs. I decided to take that as my 'final answer.' The card from the standard deck (deck b) also was changing. Mostly from 4 of spades to 6 of spades.  (I think, I am REALLY having a hard time remembering this part.) I looked away, cleared my mind, looked back, and saw the 2 of diamonds (I think.) So I went with that.

Then I stood and wondered what to do next - and decided to return to body to record this. I was thrilled that I had gotten out. Absolutely thrilled. I walked back to the bedroom and said something as I stood by the bed. I don't remember what I said, but I remember being surprised that I could hear so well, often I don't hear a thing while on a travel. Mike (who was fast asleep in the physical world) responded to me - said something - don't recall what. Maybe that my hands were cold. I jumped into the air, did a triple flip (or some other fun maneuver) and dived back into my body - brushing my hand through Mike's body for fun as I re-entered.

(False awakening) I woke up and felt my hands. They were indeed cold. I decided to go check the cards right away so that I wouldn't forget by  morning what I had seen. I go to the bathroom, and pick up a card, and it is the  K of clubs. I turn it over and realize there is a face card (Q spades) on the back side of the card, too. Then I realize that there are too many cards on the counter, and I realize that I am dreaming. (it amazes me that we can distinguish a dream like this from an astral travel - on paper these must sound very similar but in experience they feel very different.) I slapped myself to wake up, thought about going outside to scream to wake myself up but I realized that the house was alarmed and if I opened the front door sirens would go off.  (I guess a lot of the inconsistencies - like the fact that a dream siren won't wake the physical neighbors - weren't very apparent to me at this point.) Anyway, I genuinely woke up about then.

First I wrote down what I had 'seen' while travelling - k clubs and 2 diamonds.  Then I went to check.

Darn it all, the cards were the jack of spades and the 5 of spades.

Here's some of the things I wonder.  For Deck A I did succeed in identifying black face card (not red ace.)  For deck B, I can't help but remember how I saw the four of spades/six of spades flipping back and forth and the actual card was the five of spades.

I am not one to try to make data fit after the fact, but I AM trying to figure out if we truly travel to these astral planes and they have this sort of malleability - was I witnessing this sort of thing with the playing cards? How does this work? HOw do we stop it? Isn't there supposed to be a plane near the physical that has essentially no malleability? I find it interesting that I had difficulty changing the black face card to a five of diamonds. Overall, I am thrilled that I got out. Just absolutely thrilled.  Man, I want to get this 'ability' down pat.

Your thoughts and comments are extremely welcome.

Patty
#18
Hey Patty,

I know how you feelhttp://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile.gif" border=0>

Oliver

#19


Yep, I'm chuckling at my screen, because you hit on what must be a common pitfall.

So many times I relax the physical and automatically roll on my side and begin going through the motions of drifting off to sleep.

Next instant I'm saying, "Hello... shouldn't you be projecting to some place?"

Yours,
Frank

#20
Patty,    ...First of all, congratulations for having a lucid dream!  The best solution to a dream is answered by the dreamer, don't ya think?  There are many levels of consciousness.  I think this may have been a case where you weren't totally lucid. It might be a good idea to brainstorm the differences between dreams and projection.  I think It's interesting that you chose to keep a story going.  You saw people around you, not only believing they were actual people, but thinking that they must also be dreaming.  I've also had dreams like this. It seems that you may have wanted a projection rather then a dream(asking the meaning of life).  At the end when your friend showed up could mean a few things.  During Lucid dreams one often gets lonely or bored. You could have subconcsiously willed him to be there, (if you think dreams are all from the dreamers mind) OR he could have actually been there (if you believe you were out in a dream dimension).      ...Sorry, I often get carried away when thinking of dreams. I try not to push my beliefs onto people.  After all, it's something I'm still trying to find out as well!

#21
Touring the Astral with a guide is generally *much* more productive and I, for one, would highly recommend you to delve deeper in this area. You will learn far more if you turn over the driving, as you call it, to them.

I found that guides approach you very gradually, at first, so as not to alarm you.

With me, I get a feeling like if I were on the physical and I sensed someone behind me. They will only approach you full-on when they are sure you are ready. Meeting a guide can often be a very emotive experience, and I don't know why that is exactly.

I assume it is something to do with the energy they radiate. You get a very humble feeling and it makes you want to stand in awe. Well, that's what used to happen to me. Whether you will feel the same I don't know, but I think it would pay you to be aware of the possibility. Because, if you let that kind of emotion overwhelm you, a buffer experience will come about wherein you might find yourself bowing down to angels, and the like.

I have what I call a "regular" who I nicknamed Harry. He takes me on tours of the belief-system areas and shows me some of the more interesting cases. Harry also has this flying craft that we travel in now and again. Last time we went in it, he flew through an Astral-Plane Entrance Structure which was a lovely experience as I had never seen one before.

Afterwards I realised why not: I always keep my "eyes" closed while moving around at speed. Something which I am still trying to get out of the habit of doing. I think it was no coincidence that I realised this after the trip, as I reckon Harry put the seed-thought in my mind.

Guides will scan your thoughts and communicate directly from mind to mind. That is probably where you are getting the feeling of "companionship" from. However, your guide will only come as close as you are ready to receive them, as they are only too aware of your own emotional strengths and weaknesses.

Also, don't be surprised if you get a strong feeling you met your guide before somewhere. That's how I feel about Harry. I would swear blind I met the guy before but cannot, for the life of me, think where. And don't be surprised if you find guides introducing you to people that seem to already know you. This used to confuse the heck out of me, at first. Like, these people knew my name and all about me, as if they were lifelong, close friends. Yet, I'd never seen them before???

Problem is, they all communicate non-verbally and can scan your mind. Which does take a *lot* of getting used to. Plus, you slowly start to begin to be able to do the same. But it takes a while to learn. In the beginning stages you only pick up little snippets about the person (the stage I am currently at) which gives you a, "Haven't I seen you before somewhere?" sensation.  

Guides are excellent for helping you to "trace your roots" which is what I am currently working on. However, you need to be prepared for some pretty explosive emotive experiences that you will find impossible to remain closed to. Your guide will generally not interfere with this, in the sense of protecting you from the experience, as it is your actual experiencing of the situation that is part and parcel of your mind's enlightenment process.  

To my mind, finally getting around to seeking a guide is a major turning point. First the temptation is to look at the Astral as a huge adventure playground. Which is nice, and is a view I held for quite a number of years. But I believe the first step on your own path of enlightement is when you finally summon the courage to ask a guide to show you the way.

That's basically the point where you stop playing and begin to discover all of what "life" is really about. And it can be one heck of a rocky road.

Where you state, "but  I don't personally buy into that because I believe my very real-seeming demons have all turned out to be figments when I confronted them." I hope you absolutely believe that statement utterly and totally, 100%. As it will be tested time and again (especially at first).

Best of luck.

Yours,
Frank

#22
hi patty,  ever since i have started NEW i have found my dreams to be more vivid, i think this was because robert said that the more developed your energy body is, the more vivid your dreams are.....

for example, i once had a lucid dream and for some reason was running  away from a tornado,  but realised  my legs were really stiff and  no matter how hard i tried to run they were hardly moving at all....this is pure speculation but perhaps my legs were so weak and basically non-existent  because i hadnt raised energy through them and thusly the legs of my energy body were not  charged or "energised" during the lucid dream. This is my guess anyway.

Also, whenever i  charge myself up and activate my chakras i  begin to feel my energy body move around inside my physical body,  i think robert said  our chances of obe are greater if we are fully charged.

#23
I actually find the opposite true for me. If I go long periods of time without projecting I have to take time to be able to project again. If I have not projected in a few months then I usually have to meditate for awhile each day for about a week or two before I am able to project again. If I meditate and try projecting every day or several times a week I am usually much more successful on each try.
Sometimes I will experience what you have mentioned, especially when I first started projecting or when I am trying to project again after a long break. I think the reason behind this is because you get too excited. You did it the day before and now you are thinking about all that you want to do so you kind of get in a hurry to get out or you get excited about getting out. This seems to be my problem at times. I do not really think you get drained by projecting a lot. You do it every night and are not drained in the morning. I think that you actually project more the more you project. So just try to remain calm when you try projecting.
GOOD LUCK!

#24


I posted on an experience I had a while ago. It felt just like you described. Turns out I had accidentaly stimulated what mystics call the Heart Chakra. It felt like I had expanded to about twice my normal size and that my body had turned into foam rubber. These Chakra areas are stimulated by concentrated thought and, once they become active, they present you with all kinds of weird and wonderful sensations.

Yours,
Frank







#25
Good luck!
was your nickname the same before?
I posted on those sucky forums sometimes too

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