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I've read Dion Fortune's "The Mystical Qabala" too - I won't regurgitate it though.

I experienced something that might be labeled F4 in Frank's model, but it was too weird to put a name on it. I'll call it "The Crazy Kickin' Spot of the Great Beyond" because that's at the top my list of names and sounds cool.

I read this book a long time ago too! I'd be interesting to know what books other people read on their path to their current location (I'd bet most have read the same core of books ).

wow. thats pretty intense. so im self inducing a psychotic effect. odd.

It suggests you are being aware and observant of the moment - that is being able to see visual artifacts which are usually filtered out before we are consciously aware of it. It's just something that can have negative effects if it is focused on and caused to grow .

Thank you for your brief and usefull reply

If something sounds too good to be true, it usually is .

["migratory animals their extraordinary paranormal sensory"]

Looking at the site I would say definately not. Mainly it seems to be some multivitamin pill which also contains magnatite, it states this substance gives "migratory animals their extraordinary paranormal sensory" which is rubbish. Perception of magnetic fields is not paranormal in any way shape or form. Next it states "Recently it has also been discovered in trace amounts in some human beings perhaps explaining why some individuals experience paranormal abilities and others do not." . This is rubbish too. All human brains contain this substance.

More info on it can be found here:

Crystals of magnetite have been found in some bacteria (e.g., Magnetospirillum magnetotacticum) and in the brains of bees, of termites, of some birds (e.g., the pigeon), and of humans. These crystals are thought to be involved in magnetoreception, the ability to sense the polarity or the inclination of the earth's magnetic field, and to be involved in navigation. Also, chitons have teeth made of magnetite on their radula making them unique among animals. This means they have an exceptionally abrasive tongue with which to scrape food from rocks.

The study of biomagnetism began with the discoveries of Caltech paleoecologist Heinz Lowenstam in the 1960s.

This is a 'natural' phenomenon of the mind. It has something to do with how movement is interpreted by the brain, and through observation, objects can be made to look like they are stretching or shrinking. What is occuring is that the brain is sensing movement which actually isn't there - so the illusion of expansion or shrinking is created.
There is a lot of 'fluff' which perceptional filters remove from visual processing. It's possible to become aware of it (for what ever reason) - although it can become very distracting and overtime it will start to happen beyond your control - this can become very distressing as a negative feedback loop can be created i.e. you can't help but notice the movement, so you see it more and look for it more, which inturn makes it more pronounced etc.
Certain conditions (usually caused through the use of psychedelic drugs) force this on to people - HPPD (Hallucinogen persisting perception disorder) being one of them. Although HPPD brings up a lot more than such movement illusions.
My advice would be to ignore it before it becomes self perpetuating as personal experience shows it leads to depersonalisation and all that entails.

I read about this a few weeks back in a local free morning paper we get over here called the 'Metro'

Thanks for sharing tvos . I've always wanted to try a flotation tank in regards to attempting OBE. Are you planning on any more sessions in a tank?

afaik no. A lot of magick is built around perfecting such visualisation, and i've read of authors who utlise perfect visualisation in their acts and to AP. For example, J.H. Brennen spoke about people who could impose a visualisation perfectly onto reality, so to the person visualising the object with their eyes open, it looked like it was physically there. The only interesting incidenct I have read about was such a visualiser who visualsed a bowl of water at a specific spot on the floor. Someone with a dowsing rod would notice acitivity over the spot the visualisation was at. I have no idea if this tale is true, but I remember it catching my attention at the time I read about it.

Trees produce only a small amount of the oxygen on Earth (contrary to popular belief trees and plants are major contributors to global warming as the produce large amount of methane - which is a very potent global warming gas, this is something science only learnt of recently).
Algae actually produces more oxygen then every plant and tree on Earth combined. Global warming will see algae growth increase and their rates of photosynthesis also increase (outputting greater amounts of oxygen) - so we have nothing to worry about regarding oxygen depletion. Although increased photosynthesis of algae seems to damage coral reefs.

All in all, not enough information out there to really tell if it would facilitate OBE or not... It seems to be one of these drugs where the bad outweighs the good, hence why it's not very popular...

From my own experience with nutmeg, I don't think it is a good tool for OBE. FIrstly the side effects can be too distracting, secondly, the effect on consciousness and tactile perception are very different from my natural experiences of OBE and energy sensations. At times nutmeg felt very much like a stoned buzz.

Be careful when taking nutmeg, there is evidence that it damages the liver in high doses. Also, it can be very long lasting and leave a very long 'hangover' (days long). Also, i've read that nutmeg shouldnt be taken in combination with MAOIs.

Nutmeg shouldn't be taken lightly as it's essential oils contain analogues of MDA - which is in the same family of drugs as MDMA and Mescaline (phenethylamines) i.e. pretty serious psychoative drugs.

More info can be found here:

http://www.erowid.com/plants/nutmeg/nutmeg.shtml

last year I tried to put the experience of DP into a poem:

Sometimes
the world seems to spin too fast
as it screams past my mind, in
an increasingly uncomprehensible pattern
of waves and streaks, and
regardless, of attempts
to chain my mind down,
i still get thrown off, tossed into orbit
falling over myself into blackness
and a birdseye view of my distant life.
removed from my daily chores, and
seeing through a fog of increasing irreality
my fellow companions seem to merge
into this dream, as depersonalisation
descends like cloudy lenses, foisted
over eyes and mind.
bemused smile beams, through cracked mind
to see my own hands
held before my (not) face,
in the third person – from an unfathomable distance
as
cotton wool packs my brain

yes it is very frightening it feels like your mind is going to get lost to sea

but a part of me is a little bit tempted by this, for some reason I feel as though it means I am doing something 'right' spiritually... like an unplesant side effect of progress is still progress, which is good. It's a strange thing to say but I might want to see 'how deep the hole goes' is it really possible to lose your mind like this?

I think it could lead into deep depression and quite severe anxiety. When I was really deep in it, my head felt fuzzy, it really did feel like I was watching my life on a movie screen from 100 miles away (very hard to explain – but I think it has something to do with tunnel vision brought on by the DP) and even familiar things became alien. Such as we build up emotional prints of day to day objects, and even days, for example Sundays have a specific feel, doing certain activities evoke a specific feel etc. My DP washed all this away. To show the extremes of it, looking at my hands was just scary, it was hard to comprehend how they 'connected' to me. They just seemed so far away and alien.
10+ years on I go through phases of it still, but I'm used to it now and it is nowhere as severe as before.
If you do want to go with this, just be very careful as eventually it will stifle any spiritual progress and replace it with more negative fear based emotions.

I don't know if I experience vibrations, but after I sit down and expand my mind for a few minutes, if I don't control my body suddenly my limbs begin to shake and move about on their own. Are these vibrations? I can control them but if I don't they just start moving on their own and it can get pretty INTENSE not just lightly moving but literally shaking. I don't know if these are vibrations because I haven't even gone Out Of Body yet.

These are not the classical vibrations. Vibrations cause no physical movement (usually). The 'vibrations' are more like a huge electric current running through every cell of your body, every cell hums with increased intensity as your ears and head roar with what sounds like a vast waterfall. Intensity can vary, but they are unmistakable (and perhaps vary slight from person to person).
It might be worth getting a health check-up as what you mention above and your other thread about depersonalisation might warrant looking into. It's always best to err on the side of caution.
Years ago I went through a period where the vibrations would cause intense jaw pressure (almost pain) and because this can be an indicator of a heart problem, I had an ECG to check it out - everything turned out fine.
Health should always come first, especially as effects from OBEs could possibly mask real symptoms (buzzes, vibrations etc).

lately I am finding myself falling more and more into depersonalization, where you basically feel you aren't alive and life is a dream. Does this have anything to do with spritual progress? I have a theory that it means my mind is preparing for the next stage of expansion and detaching itself from my body... yesterday was especially disturbing I felt sooo unreal like watching your life through a movie screen

Hey thenoob,

Depersonalisation (DP) is usually a warning sign that you need to cut back a bit on spiritual activities and take time to ground yourself in 'mundane' reality. I've suffered from severe DP in the past (and 11 years on it comes and goes to varying degrees), and it can keep increasing until it is incapacitating unless you make a concerted effort to stop it.
Something that a lot of people don't understand is that most spiritual practices (meditation, energy work, obe practice etc) can have negative side effects. What we are fundamentally doing with these practices is changing brain function over time. Where drugs (mainly psychoactive ones) can cause radical changes quickly, the practices mentioned above (and related ones) can cause equally profound changes slowly over time. But the changes through such practices can be very long lasting.
When ever you feel 'out of it' or feel depersonalisation / derealisation it's always best to take a break, do things which connect you with reality, and then get back to it when you feel grounded. We have our whole lifetime to practice these things but rushing too fast and becoming disconnected from reality can cause some serious problems.

I'm looking forward to see how it turns out . I've been looking into floatation tanks for a while and so it will be great to see if they do have any drastic effect on attempts to OBE.

Hi Mathmagical,

I think I have read an experience where someone projected on a plane. I can't remember where I saw it but i'll try and find it (it might have even been on this forum somewhere).
You should give it a go and let us know .

Holy Crap!

What neighborhood has a sensory depravation tank, I'd do this in a heartbeat.

How do you even come across one of these? I'm so jealous I'm getting sick.

Ok, anyway sounds like a good time and good luck.

wonderboy

In the UK quite a few spa centres have them, usually with 40min-1hr booking slots .

The screen shot wasn't too clear and the woman looked very much like:



who is a main character in SG1

lol, sorry kiwi, I've been busy but here is a picture of my tv.  It's not a great one but those are the speakers that run up both sides of the screen.  I'll take a different picture of my room as soon as I clean off all the clothes laying on the chair..




Hmm..ok, that is a crappy picture but the best I can do right now until I have time to mess with the quality.   We got a new computer and I think the webcam is still configured for the crappy computer.

Avocado.  No, I'm sorry no sculpture. 

SG-SG1? :p

Hmm that article is a little hard for me to understand. I read scientific american a lot but still I cant make much sence of it. Is it saying that a single photon registers as though there were multiple photons in this experiment? It sounds like the atom duality and triality (when the dual atoms combine it makes a 3rd one, it's a 3 mode 'switch') used in the experemental quantum computers. I dont see why it would be so contraversial to find light acts the same way..

Imagine a board with two slots in it



On the right side of it is a particle emitter which fires a single particle at the board. On the other side of the board is a detector which shows when then particle hits it.
If we close one slot and fire a particle at the board, the detector shows a single hit, if we open both slots and fire a particle at the board, the detector now shows an interference pattern



An interference pattern occurs when two waves hit each other, some of the waves will cancel each other out, and some waves will reinforce each other. This gives the stripy pattern seen above.
The interference pattern occurring from a single particle shows that the particle actually went through both slots at the same time and interfered with itself before hitting the detector.

The reason this is controversial is that a single object can be in multiple places at the same time. There is a lot more theory behind this, but this explains the basics of it.

Edit: it contains some already known theories

I havent been focusing on science perhaps nearly as much as I should, so bear with me. I was thinking of quantum mechanics while sleeping. My line of thought, dark energy being effected by magnetism turned out to be bogus, or I couldnt make it work, but it sparked my interest. I only just thought this up, it probably isnt perfect.

The idea of air bubbles in water came to mind, and how all planets and atoms are influenced to form spheres, despite  their kinetic movements.

I propose that all matter is being pushed on at all sides by all the dark energy in the universe. That dark energy is like a layer of rubber across the universe, that is it wants to be evenly distributed everywhere. Perhaps the reason the universe is expanding is not because there is more dark energy being created, but that dark energy is spreading out, trying to make itself evenly distributed. To dark energy matter is an invasive energy pushing it away, therefore it tries to enter the space where an atom is and pushes on the walls of the atom, making it spherical. The denser an atom is the more dark energy it pushes out, therefore the more dark energy pushes on the walls of the atom. Being classified as void by dark energy gives matter the ability to clump together, to dark energy, a planet is a large atom, this creates gravity in the matter's immediate area. We (us, atoms, planets) are like waterbugs walking on the surface of a spherical pond.

Hey Alaskans,

I only just came across this thread. Something to note is that atoms are not spherical, neither are electrons or other particles. Classical physics created the idea of spherical subatomic particles and atoms with tidy orbits of electrons mimicking a solar system.
Such particles cannot actually be fit into any shape, they are simply discreet units of energy with certain properties – this inability to give them shape can be seen in wave-particle duality.
Regarding planets, taking Earth as an example, it is not actually spherical. It bulges at the equator due to the centrifugal spin pushing its malleable core outwards – gravity is stronger than this spin though, so the planet doesn't tear itself apart and form a rough spheroid shape (in space-time theory, this is due to the gravity well Earth greats on this fabric).

Dark Matter (and more importantly Dark Energy) is an area which is still very much open to discussion, there are a number of theories out there which actually believe this form of matter/energy is a phantom, and our current understanding of gravity and cosmology lead us to see a deficit of matter in the universe which has led to the production of this phantom – when in fact, modifying our laws of gravity will make up for the missing mass/energy.

There was recently a map of dark matter created:



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6235751.stm

It seems that on the whole dark matter is found where there is visible matter, but in quite a few places, there are large amounts of dark matter but no visible matter.

A very interesting article in last months New Scientist concerned the possibility that the universe shows a fractal distribution (and using fractal geometry can explain the interaction of quantum particles). I've posted a few paragraphs in quotes below:

Fractals allow Pietronero to paint a very different sort of picture - one in which the irregular distribution of matter that we see around us never evens out into a smooth structure, but repeats itself at ever grander scales. Fractals are familiar enough: we see them in the branching of trees, the curves of coastlines, lungs, turbulence and clouds. No matter what scale you look at them, fractal patterns look the same. Think of broccoli: a tiny branch looks much the same as the whole vegetable. Zoom in or zoom out, the structure looks the same - exquisitely detailed, never smooth. Fractals can be beautiful to look at, but when it comes to galaxies it may be a subversive kind of beauty.

Certainly the universe does not look smooth. Some regions contain clusters of matter; others are virtually empty. Hundreds of billions of stars group together to form galaxies, and galaxies congregate in clusters. Clusters assemble into colossal structures called superclusters that can stretch out for 100 million light years and look uncannily like fractal patterns (see Diagram).
Even superclusters string together in long filaments and sheets that stretch like ghostly cobwebs across an otherwise empty sky. The Sloan Great Wall, for example, which was discovered in 2003, spans more than a billion light years. These filaments and sheets seem to encircle huge voids of empty space. The voids range from 100 to 400 million light years in diameter, making the whole assemblage appear as an immense, glowing lattice punctuated by wells of darkness.
No one disputes that the universe is far from smooth on relatively small scales - by which cosmologists mean thousands of light years. But Hogg's team is convinced that if you zoom further out, smoothness reigns. "When you're looking at the size scales of galaxies, groups of galaxies, clusters, superclusters and filaments, it looks like a fractal," says Hogg. "But once you get larger than all of that, then it starts to look homogeneous."

What has convinced him is his team's analysis of the latest data from the Sloan Digital Sky Survey, the largest 3D map of the galactic universe so far. His team insists that the map is proof of smoothness. The fractal camp, however, are sceptical. In fact, they say the Sloan observations confirm what they've been claiming all along.
It might appear to be deadlock, but at least with the Sloan survey the two sides can agree what they're disagreeing about. For years Pietronero and his team argued that the statistical methods mainstream cosmologists were using to establish homogeneity were flawed because they start off by assuming that matter is evenly spread. The team was mostly ignored until 2004, when Hogg and astrophysicist Daniel Eisenstein of the University of Arizona in Tucson spent a summer in Paris with Pietronero's colleagues, cosmologists Francesco Sylos Labini of the Enrico Fermi Centre and the Institute for Complex Systems, Rome, and Michael Joyce of the Pierre and Marie Curie University, Paris.

"We argued every day about fractals," Hogg says. "Those battles raged over lunch and coffee and finally convinced us by the end of our visit that we should be doing the analysis as they say."
When they returned to the US, Hogg and Eisenstein applied the fractal team's methods to a sample of 55,000 luminous red galaxies mapped by Sloan. They found that the galaxies do form a fractal pattern, but as they looked at bigger and bigger scales, the pattern appeared to disintegrate and smooth out at just over 200 million light years - a scale far larger than most cosmologists had expected.

The million-dollar question is: what is the real distribution of dark matter? Is dark matter smooth or fractal? Is it clustered like the galaxies, or does it spread out, unseen, into the great voids? If the voids are full of dark matter, then the apparent fractal distribution of luminous matter becomes rather insignificant. But if the voids are truly empty, the fractal claim requires a closer look.
Astronomers are now providing our first glimpse into the voids and our first look at the pattern of invisible matter. Richard Massey of the California Institute of Technology in Pasadena and others in the Cosmic Evolution Survey project have just created the first 3D map of dark matter in the universe (New Scientist, 13 January, p 5). They were able to find the dark matter by observing its gravitational effect on any light streaming past it. Combining data from the Hubble Space Telescope, the Subaru telescope in Hawaii and the Very Large Telescope in Chile, they mapped the distribution of dark matter at scales ranging from 23 million to 200 million light years across.
Massey's team found that the dark matter distribution is nearly identical to the luminous matter distribution. "The first thing that strikes me is the voids," Massey says. "Vast expanses of space are completely empty. The dark matter makes up a criss-crossing network of strings and sheets around these voids. And all the luminous matter lies within the densest regions of dark matter."
Although this distribution of dark matter seems to favour the idea that the universe is fractal, Hogg isn't convinced. "It is interesting," he says, "but measurements of dark matter are much less precise than measurements of galaxy distributions."

Something of interest you might want to look into is the Higgs Boson and Higgs Field:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgs_field

We already have circumstantial evidence for its existence, and the LHC (http://public.web.cern.ch/Public/Content/Chapters/AboutCERN/CERNFuture/WhatLHC/WhatLHC-en.html) at CERN goes online later this year and will potentially provide solid evidence for its existence.

Hey Golden Light,

If i'm in a state conducive to OBE (usually sleep paralysis with vibrations) rolling out is the way I usually project (probably 90%+ of the time). The problem I have is getting to these states which are favourable to projection .

I notice that when I am "out" I'm a deep blue color, very translucent and light though.

I absolutly love it.

A lot of my experience start off with the most beautiful blue colour. I usually roll out, and if I look out of the window, the world seems bathed in a deep blue (like a perfect dawn).

Hi Melfina,

What you might be experiencing is something called 'clicking out'. Quoted from the Monroe Institute website:

http://www.monroeinstitute.com/content.php?section=Hemi-Sync%20FAQs

There may be times when you "click out" of the exercise,especially as you begin to move up to and beyond your level of experience. Clicking-out is different from falling asleep. There is a sense of having dropped out of the exercise. Upon returning to or finishing the exercise, there is no perception of time having passed. You will have stored the memory of your experience but will have no immediate recall. Clicking-out is a common, frequently reported experience. When you have progressed to a given stage it won't happen and you will have total recall. Meanwhile, try putting the idea or picture of sleep in your Energy Conversion Box. If you are still falling asleep, try sitting up during the exercise. And finally practice, practice, practice! It is through patience and continued practice that you learn to maintain balance in the hypnagogic state between deep relaxation and sleep.

This is something experience overcomes. From my own personal experience, the state of F10 developed from 'Wave I' can be deeper and more profound than what can be experienced before using 'Wave I'. This is due to the binaural beats, the tools given, and guided nature of the CD. This isn't to say people who have never used Wave I can't experience the same state, just that this CD pushes you into F10, where one trying on their own without knowledge of what F10 should be like might be moving between many deeply relaxed states.