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Hi Qbeac,

You asked whether I considered it to be possible (in pm).

It ought to be possible, although it seems to depend on the psychological make-up of the person doing the "projecting".

First and foremost, the connection between the environment and the OBE environment is atmospheric.

It is atmospheric because perceiving objects or words in an OBE environment have to be processed through the psychological space of the person doing the perceiving.

So for example, a person who embarks upon the task of reading a card or two words will perceive something that is either an exact replica of what is there (the least likely possibility), or he/she will perceive something related to the task and objects.

For the sake of giving a clarifying example let's say the words is "hell's kitchen".   It takes little imagination to see where things may go wrong in trying to perceive these words, and it all depends on the psychological make-up of the person what is actually experienced.

A person with an affinity to the city of new york may find him/herself in the location of hell's kitchen. A person preoccupied with darker aspects of OBEs may find him/herself in a hellish environment. A person watching to many television shows may find himself talking to hollywood celebreties.

All these are "hits" that cannot be appropriately quantified through normal scientific means.

So why does psychological make-up have such an effect on perception? The simple reason is that perception in real life in largely psychological. After all, no such thing as "two words" exists in real life. The reading and perception of the words is largely psychological already. The physical/sensory component of the words is totally meaningless (consiting of some lines on a piece of paper).

So everything is psychological space, which leads to all kinds of difficulties, since there is no actual reality against which things can be measured nor seperated from the observer either in real life or while OBE.

Yet, hits with "perfect" correspondence do seem to be possible. At least, there is some anecdotal evidence that those who experience it will have difficulty dismissing (scientific or not). Also, all these instances of  atmospheric correspondence do seem to pile rather quickly when OBEing that are difficult to categorize under "coincidence".

What you would probably need is an OBEer whose psychological make-up is extremely orietented towards normal consensus reality, and will have the tendency to perceive an object directly, rather than its greater atmospheric reality.

Now, that may very well be impossible!  

Mayor Tom you give a very good explanation and seem to have a lot of insight into this matter. At least as far as I can tell my own experience points in the same direction as you explain.

Now, I wonder how one could set up a validation experiment that would bypass these difficulties. You know, some kind of experimental setup that would allow validation for most people, something that would maybe even take advantage of these atmospheric conditions. I have no idea yet, though. Do you have any Idea how that could work?

Thanks for the replies although to be honest I still have no clue what eternal Life means as used in the Bible. I mean, sure I can come up with nice concepts what it could mean, but I wanna know what the Christs believe it means. As I understood the Bible, eternal Life is achieved thru Jesus, so if it would be a universal principle (we are all consciousness etc) then I wonder why I must achieve it thru Jesus (Since we have it anyway)?

Neutrino: I do not have very good opinion about the Bible (I believe it contains mostly stories about Human-Alien interaction that have been misinterpreted). So if you wanna make any progress you rather answer me questions then quote pages of this 2000 year old (likely) wrongly translated Book. Because otherwise I start to assume that your IQ is pretty low.

Slowly I start to wish that Frank is a con artist  or something, because I don't want him to go tru some hard times I don't want him to suffer. It sure would be better for him to lay at a beach then to lay in a hospital wouldn't it?  I strongly feel it is the later though. Which makes me  very sad.  Maybe people are searching for answers because they want him back.

Hi qbeac

What if the results are mixed?

lets say my mother places the word "Bongo" but I read "Banjo"
From what I know so far most of the time it is not possible to read the correct word but it is sometimes the case the the Projector perceives a somehow related word/picture

Are you confidently that we can overcome this difficulties? have you already tested methods to do so?

Cu Tom

Somehow you guys keep on missing the point

I think it's clear that the exact details are considered personal and are to remain so for the immediate future.

Doug

Is it? I never have heard that anybody said that he knew for a fact what Frank is going thru. If somebody knows I would like to hear about it. I don't mean he should say specific what Frank has (this is personal I understand) but he should clearly state that he personally knows the truth.

Do you know it Gandalf?

There are allready very long old threads discussing this, You might wanna look there cause likely the people do not wanna rewrite it all.

[NO]

I never said I couldnt Lucid Dream...
Infact I can... I Lucid Dream evrynight.
But I cannot use it to astral project.

Now are you aware of the fact that quite a few people believe there is NO real differenze between LD and OBE?!

So likely you are allready APing

However if you want to experience the transition from a waking state, try to keep your consciousness when the LD ends, then lay still don't move don't think, The vibrations might then start to kick in by themselfs.

I have used The Monroe Institute Gateway CD's...
MindFreak... Obviously I have done all that... thats the first thing anyone would try.

I have spent 5 years trying... I have tried EVRY method... Trust me. I havent missed anything.

I know my friend has never astral projected yet he tells evryone he has, and he has infact fallin for his own lies... I am starting to think NO ONE! has ever astral projected and that it's not true... After 5 years you would think if it were true I would of got SOMTHING!

ok now listen, you have not answered my question. I can not help you when you do not answer the questions. LD is fairly easy, everybody can do it. You must have done something wrong. so tell my your technique. What time of the day did you try? etc.....

BTW: LD is a scientific proofen fact

Tombo's mind is not easy to corrupt, don't worry about it

Thanks for the updata Adrian, I appreciate it very much!

I have tryed Lucid dreaming, As I said... I have tryed EVRYTHING
I have been trying to Astral project for over FIVE years and never got a single thing...

How did you try to LD, what was your Technique?

You could practuse Luzid Dreaming, which is easier to achieve. Stephen Laberge has some good books with techniques out. I tried them and they work. you should be able to LD within weeks. Then you could try to hold your Conciousness while waking up und thus inducing a OBE which is easier then to induce them from a waking state in my view.

2 questions

-how do you explain people that can access earlier lives tru hypnosis?

-what happens with people that die without praying to Jesus? lets for example take some  people living in th rain forest in Amazonia that never heard of Jesus

OK i jsut read a couple of Franks older posts and realized that he can not be a con artist the mere thought seems ridiculous. He was such a nice and helpful person I would bet all my money that he is honest.

LOL @Mac

qbeac:

It is nice to see how much effort you put into this certainly very interestin subject. Now I wonder do you have a couple a Astralprojectors that will do the experiment for and then you will analyze the results or is that it. Is your job now finished? I mean, what are your futher plans regarding this method?

Never mind

Thanks for the info RooJ, thing is I don't have any money involved, so I probably won't invest too much time in finding Frank right now  (Maybe a corporate effort I would support). As you said, it is probably the best to wait it out. I just thought maybe a computer crackerjack could find some infos with a few mouse clicks.

An the other hand if I find Franks manuscript I could sell it to you guys and make some cash  

This whole thing is utterly strange. I really would like to find out whats really going on. I mean after all it is not just about Frank but also about his whole Theory of phasing and all his work that he did here.

But some how it should be possible to track down this guy, after all he has
-a registered Website
-Pay pal
-Was a moderator here for years
- has a IP-Address
Don't we have some crazy computer specialists here that can at least find out his "Real" Name and Address or confirm the one he gave?

Besides that It just doesn't make sense that Frank is supposed to be a con artist. I think what happened may be the following:
He decided to write the book and do his virtual classroom thing has he said, then his computer broke down. soon after that he got sick. then he gave the classroom members their money back option assuming that he is soon back in full health. Maybe he used an internetcafé for that? Unfortunately he got very ill after that, so ill in fact that he can't leave his house and his computer is still broke. His business partner is maybe assuming that every thing is working fine and Frank can't contact him either. So he can't contact us and he can't give you guys the money back. He may have used a fake address for whatever reason (He is no holy man) or he may live together with somebody else and only the other person is registered? I'm think he really lives in France though because he was often on line at the same time then I was (France, Switzerland is the same timezone)

So I still  believe this is no hoax.

The mere thought that Franks unfinished book may rest for ever in his PC is very disturbing

Hi everybody, PLEASE, HELP ME IN THE FOLLOWING ENGLISH SCIENCE FORUM!:

- SCIFORUM. Thread: Scientific method to verify if OBE are real or imaginary experiences
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=890456#post890456

Somebody has asked to move the post from the scientific section to the pseudo-scientific one, and, in my opinion, "it seems" that person simply has not taken the time to analyze this subject properly from a scientific point of view.


Thanks. qbeac.

ok I go over there

I posted this in another thread. See if you think this makes any sense...

Though all spirits are all parts of the same whole, part of the same Source, each spirit, each piece of the whole, has its own individual sentience. Each piece is consciously self-aware. This allows each spirit to view existence from its own individual perspective. Over the course of lifetimes, the individual perspectives give rise to individual personalities and characteristics - the soul - the means by which a spirit percieves its experiences.

The way I equate it is "spirit" is the (indestructable) energy body, "soul" is the consciousness or sentience of a spirit.


James.

Thanks for the reply James.
So you say that the Soul is "individual personalities and characteristics" That doesn't make to much sense to me to be honest. I mean sure you can define Soul that way but it is evident that Personality and characteristics may change over time. So you would say that a Soul changes over time and that it (thus) may be destroyed?

Spirit as a "energy body-Lifeform kind of thing" I could go with that, but why are you sure it is indestructable? Couldn't it be that the energy Body is generated by our Consciousness when we need it? Very much like Robert Bruce talks about it

Tom

This is an interesting thread but your definitions make me frown. I actually think it would be interesting if everybody explains what he believes a "Soul" is. I'm trying to find out what you guys mean when you say "Soul" but I can't figure it out.

So you think Soul = consciousness = energy ?!

I personally thought Soul refers to a indestructible,unalterable kind of thing (but as I said I haven't really made up me mind) certainly consciousness doesn't fit these criterion's as we all know it is fairly unstable and can disappear almost completely at night. So I would like to join these discussion but please could we first define these difficult words? Do the other agree with Lolas definitions? I would guess not.

I find also the word enlighted very intriguing! Certainly BUddha had something very different in mind when he used it compared to Lola. Certainly not a evolution of consciousness! So kind of bewildering for me to read about "Enlightment" ( That I know about thruogh me studies of Buddhism) and see that it is used completly in an other sense here


BTW Fist: I find your post very interesting but... I think The Dalai Lama would turn over in his grave when he heard would you said  Certainly the Buddhist believes that there is no indestructible,unalterable Soul. But most Buddhist certainly do NOT believe that the consciousness dies after death or is generated by the brain. They do not believe that there is only matter. Buddha himself meets various Spirits all the time and talks about quite a few planes beside the physical one!

pretty cool

I'm interessted in that subject as well. Havent read the whoile thread yet. I like your "focus helps" that you describe, good idea!
I did some experiements in the past with mixed Results, very much like you guys describe. I plan to to do some more experiments in the future. The problem with words and numbers is that the perception often mixes them up

My last exp. was as follows:

My Girlfriend draw a butterfly on a paper and placed it on a table. I saw a twisted heart while APing whch I draw later. The 2 drawings were very close (basially same geometrical shape) but still no complete match. I would like to have a complete proof for me personal. But is gets frustrating quickly. So I don't do much of these experiments anymore. It is definitely not pure guessing, that I'm convinced.