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[they are NOT REAL]

i don't think it matters what they "are"

....

anyway, i'm interested about this asking for forgiveness thing, it occurred to me do so last night... so I just kind of hovered in a dream and said i was sorry for a few things... i felt some positivity in me, but not much...

the same thing happened to me still though.... I think.... I know I later met an invisible being by my closet and it wouldn't really talk to me.... I don't know.

Anyway....

I've been through this really badly, I guess I didn't stress that enough in my other post... the key is just to relax and realize it's not going to kill you, it might be terrifying... but you know what, all you have to do is pop out of body and give them a beating down until you feel better... then I'd recommend asking them what they represent and why they are there, and telling them to nicely go away.

The easiest way to do this is to operate under the assumption that they are NOT REAL no one knows whether they are or not, so either way, the risk remains equal... running from them doesn't work, or they'd be gone by now.

Just try and calm down when the paralysis sets in and you feel a presence.... try to get out of body... or even ask it to pull you out of your body my experience is that it will, but maybe it's becuase that is what I expect.

Confront it, if it isn't violent, don't fight it... treat it with a sense of respect and try to understand what it is, what it represents, etc.

I told it I loved it last night, it said it loved me too.

I don't know that I love it though, but it does serve as a useful lucidity trigger despite being an annoyance.

But if you want to get over it, your best bet is to not read about negatives, and demons, and ghosts, your best bet is to read peoples  positive spiritual experiences.... expose yourself to happy things, reassure yourself that if they come back you will confront them.

Try and relax during the day and just say whatever affirmations might help make you happy during the night.

I think I'm almost over my experience.

Oh and you might want to try going to this "incubus removal planet" i stumbled across... if you can find it... or will it into existance.

http://dreamjournal.org/dj/index.cfm?do=getdream&dream_id=39232

there's no real wrong way to get there. Just look for a planet and ask to go there I suppose. It was kind of fun.

quote:Originally posted by astralspinner

According to a book I have on vampirism, it's actually pretty easy for a spirit to help itself to excess energy from living humans - especially when they're asleep.

I seem to recall RB mentioning somewhere about absorbing the excess energy large crowds of humans generate - like at a football game when somebody's just scored.

So by all accounts, there's enough of the stuff floating around anyway, without needing a bank for it.

After all, that's presumably how the parasites in the RTZ stay there when they're not alive..

though i don't particularly believe in RB's afterlife/spirits/negs theories... based upon HIS way of looking at things, I'd absolutely agree..... why need a bank when you can go leech off of sleeping people you dislike, or something?

That would be pretty funny actually.... though... I don't know if RB thinks there are any consequences upon the victim of mild energy theft while they sleep... since I think he thinks we are refilling ourselves while we sleep in the first place.

quote:Originally posted by dkj400

 (we only use 20% of our brain).

http://www.snopes.com/science/stats/10percnt.htm
we use all of our brain, every day... more or less... but obviously you don't use the part of it associated with.. how to fish... while you are watching tv.... nor do YOU ever use the part that controls your heartbeat.... but it's still being used.

but yes if we used certain parts of it associated with dreaming, while awake... for example... that would be nifty and could influence paranormal things to a large degree.

I've never been to the RTZ myself, nor have I ever seen my REAL body in my bed... but one time I stumbled out and fell to the floor and my room looked very vividly normal, just that my vision was distorted then I woke back up before I could explore.

I wish it would have lasted longer so I could have verified things.

I'm not sure if I've been to an "astral" either but sometimes I find myself in colorful/colorless voids of trippy images... kind of like being inside inner eye floating colors... only there are usually thousands of intricate eyes.... and sometimes eye spirals.

probably becuase I like Tool.

[Please note I am very afraid of ghosts and the unknown.]

quote:Originally posted by MajorTom

quote:Originally posted by Paulusz

...and I started jumping up waving saying take me...

I think that quote is pretty significant.

There are basically two attitudes that you can take towards these experiences. One, as a victim that has no say in the matter and being tossed around by unknown negative forces, or two, as  person who evidently set something into in motion and is ready for an adventure of some kind.

Our subconscious can sometimes make powerful descisions with great impact on our experiences. Then it may feel like "you" has nothing to with it, but it may be merely a matter of attitude and having to reclaim your original intent.

I'm sorry if I come across too strong, and I'm sure you're going through something, but there might be a great opportunity here, which would be a shame to waste with fear of exploring new possibilities...whatever they may be.

All the best,
MajorTom

He's absolutely right.

"A couple nights before the almost OBE I was the only one home and I like to leave the kitchen light on at the end of the hallway because it makes me feel safer. Please note I am very afraid of ghosts and the unknown."

Did all of this stuff that makes you think you are haunted happen AFTER you started reading these forums?

You do realize NOTHING is ultimately true, we're just a bunch of people spouting off our opinions like they are facts (often times) but I will tell you that EVEN if there are spirits hassling you... guess what, they haven't killed you, have they?

So either:
a) they dont' want you dead
b) they can't kill you

so stop worrying about it... seriously.

Just simply reading some of these peoples wild stories about aliens and negs will MAKE YOU HAVE THOSE EXPERIENCES.... just like watching a horror movie will give you similar nightmares based upon the movies plot.

What I'm saying, is it's all in your head so approach it openly and don't get freaked out when weird stuff happens. If it is real, so what? You're still alive, so are all of the peopel that regularly have these so called encounters... so I'd take that as a reassuring sign to try and openly explore these encounters and analyze them and REALLY TEST THE HELL OUT OF THEM to determine if they are in fact "real" or not.

If you ever see a spirit/neg/alien in an OBE, talk to it, try to ask it questions that you don't know the answers to... try to force it to answer based upon your expectations.... if it isn't real it's easy enough to tell, you can make it do/say whatever the hell you want with a little bit of focus and calm

By the very nature of your mind if I told you an elaborate story about ghosts, you'd be more likely to worry about them and more likely to have weird dream experiences with them.

Couple that with dozens of forum goers telling you HEY GHOSTS ARE REAL, TIHS IS SERIOUS, I'M BEING ATTACKED!!! and you're gonna start experiencing what they talk about.

It's just a given. Placebo effect if you will.

So whether they are real or not none of us can really tell, but it doesn't do a lot of good to be afraid of them. If they are real they'll keep coming either way, you'd might as well try and confront them open mindedly and learn something and try and grow and figure out just what it is that's really going on.

And I just read something about how we are technically always dreaming but while "awake" we are tuned into our outward senses, so it can be more than possible to start hearing ghosts and seeing weird things while awake.....

I don't know if that's true or not but I found it interesting.

The imagination is very strong though, to say the least. If you want to experience ghosts, or obsess and worry over them, you probably will.

well thank you for your commentary wisp...

things got really weird last night...

This demon was back... the way I encountered him was pretty unique though... often times he's there during sleep paralysis, i used to be powerless against that but i can get out and beat down on him no problem now usually

so I suppose i sort of woke up partially while falilng asleep... I felt myself rising... I knew sleep paralysis was coming, and was glad.... I then felt very very very heavy... I was sinking.. not only sinking but being pushed downward with a kind of smothering feeling..

I then felt a very thin veil of a presence directly on top of me.... completely matching my body, as if it were my "astral double" but... it did not feel like a part of me... it felt like a separate presence...

I talked to it.. I said "are you a pure presence? If you aren't you don't belong here, leave." nothing happened... I asked again... *now obviously I'm going to expect it to be this demon, so maybe that is the only reason why i ran into him... i don't know* but I sort of transitioned out of body... and I believe it was a very thin shadowy neutral figure

it took shape into the demon though

I asked him who he was, he said "Maynard" (as in Maynard James Keenan, Tool) he looked exactly like Gollum, like he almost always does...

So.... I said no you aren't maynard, don't lie to me... I started trying to force him to answer me, to test if he was real or not... it was harder than usual and seemed to cause him pain in his head... eventually I could control him... I then stopped and asked him if the only reason I could do this was because of telepathy... he screamed YES and went a bit crazy...

It hurt him a lot I guess.... and he claimed that I affect him while he sleeps... that I woke him up last night (i don't remember him saying that but apparently he did since I wrote it down) I didn't know what he was talking about but I apologized.... I asked him why he had to be so mean about it though, and he said that I was way meaner to him than he is to me.

He made it out like... I visit him during the night and harrass him, too....

Now.. if this is the real Maynard... well.. I occasionally dream about him, but I'm far from mean to him, the only dream I ever had where I interacted with him was one where we went golfing (it was fun).

So... anyway... all of a sudden he started singing the Outsider to me "medicated, drama queen....." and well.. now I'm not sure but it seems to me that maybe I expected him to do that....

at any rate... I asked him to bring the whole band into my room.. nothing happened...

We talked, and he was very very harsh for the most part, very angry, at times scaring me... I was mostly calm and trying to be reasonable with him.. I asked him why we couldn't be friends (towards the beginning though, when he talked about how mean i was)

So throughout this... I woke up a lot, and kept voluntarily reentering paralysis.... now... towards the end of it.. I got fed up with him, grabbed him by the neck... and said something like 'please go away, get out of here and don't come back" but as i thought over what i just I couldn't help but want to interact with him more and get more information from him... so I said "well maybe you can come back later" and BAM... I woke up

I didn't get to finish my train of thought.. I was going to say I'd like to run into his "real" form in a later on lucid dream (or was it non lucid) and I think I was going to say to do it saturday... but... I never got a chance... the thoughts were still running in my head while waking up so maybe he heard it...

but...

I later on had a sort of sex dream... which was halfway lucid.. and toward the end the girl started turning into a demon... but then the dream transitioned and i wasn't lucid and she wasn't a demon anymore... so I don't know.


Now... I don't know what to make of this... I think that maybe it's pretty symbolic of how I sometimes treat my dream characters... forcing sex upon them... and such... and  you know, he said I am meaner to him than he is to me.... and he would pretty much equal any dream character I have... so it's like.... "dream karma" maybe... reprocussions for me wondering if my dream encounters are real, and if I'm sort of mind raping people....

But also... rape (it's not always rape though) symbolizes issues with intamicy and control and violation of privacy... which are issues I'm dealing with right now.. so... that could be it, too.

I mean... right now, I don't think he's real, and if he is I think he's an imposter... because I can't really fathom MJK just randomly haunting me for no reason, and being so damn ugly... I would imagine he is fairly spirtually adept and good at "magick" but I would think it would be in a purer form.. and that he would be able to mentally overpower me, which he can never do... so... it just doesn't add up.

I think it's just a familiar name to me... so.. it's a name my mind often uses.

Plus I never consciously try to harrass the man while dreaming... I mean.. I don't think I've ever even tried to contact him while lucid like i try with other people... so...

Unless I'm doing absolutely crazy, bad things that I have no memory of... I just don't see how it could be him.. why he'd choose me... how he'd find me.... what I'm doing to be mean to him... I don't know.

It's just very weird though.... very very weird....

Thinking back on it that day I did energy work, so maybe that is what put me into paralysis, having a lot more energy in me than usual... I don't normally do energy work and yesterdays was pretty effective... so...

I don't know.

It is very hard to analyze and dissect this stuff while trying to not limit myself to one belief system.. because there's the "neg" approach and the "unconscious" approach, and all sorts of different explanations for what I'm going through.

And I'm not sure which one to believe in...

I also had some very bad non lucid dreams about my friend... he was working the gun show (this weekend it's coming up) and he was extremely tired... my brother made a joke about him and he got really mad and called up to tell me that he could snipe my brother if he wanted to... I knew something was wrong and talked to him for a while... and told him he'd be fine and  he just needed to try and make it through the day and take little naps while not doing anything...

and then I saw him.. while on the phone... his eyes were so horribly bloodshot they were on the verge of bleeding, he looked horrible...

then i dreamed i was riding with him and some cub scouts had "firebombs" in the road which looked like lamp poles and consisted of shooting bottle rockets at us.. I was extremely mad becuase they could blow us up doing that and wanted to run them over....

but then ir ealized they were just stupid kids and called the police on them, but... my anger manifested into him and he tried to run them down.. then the police accidentally ran one of them over... and when they lifted his body up his brain was splattered on the sidewalk, which REALLY disturbed me...

so.... cub scouts, angering my friend... violentness... I'm not sure what the connection is supposed to be... I know he still does some work with the scouts I think...

then I dreamed my new nieghbors were deliberately ramming their truck into parked cars and vandalizing things...which isn't good, since i'm getting new neighbors soon.

and that above dream, is what led into the demon....

but i also dreamed i was at a pizza place with a girl i know and i had a beer (underage) and the cops came in and I defended this girl so she wouldn't get in trouble for serving us the beer...

then she wanted to thank us.. and I was drunk and watching myself asleep in the car while the girl I was with drove me home, and then she stopped at my street and that woman was there.. in a red dress... kind of old looking... visible out in the shadows, slowly approaching us... there was an ominous feel to it, not really scary... becuase i knew she was a good person and wanted to thank us... but something didn't settle quite right.. and my doubts manifested into the girl, who wanted to drive away...

I said we'd better not risk it so she floored it and drove away.

It was a very bizarre night of dreams... I woke up into hypnagogic hallucinations of the preview channel at one point, almost all the channels were legible and in chronological order... and I wasn't even paralyzed.. it was weird.

If any of this means anything I don't know...

I'm kind of worried about my friend now though.

quote:Originally posted by Astir

It's obvious I should stop talking about this. Suddenly my night terrors are now more frequent... Up to 10 a night. I wish I could be like the people who do not remember so well...

garbage in, garbage out... you're right. stop talking about it, stop reading about it... don't try to pretend that it doesn't happen though.. just don't dwell... don't read literature about it, don't watch movies about it, don't read posts about it.

get it out of your mind and it'll fade away.

anyway... if you're reading this, you should desire to be pulled out of your body, then you are not defenseless, the very best thing FOR ME is to just clear my mind... FOCUS... and just... well usually grab this fellow by the neck... when I have him like that he really can't do anything at all, nothing.

He's powerless..... but of course he keeps coming back.. I think it's rooted in some issues i have with my life right now, and that he isn't real.

but anyway, seriously, don't go performing protection rituals, don't worry about having them at night, don't read posts about negs... don't talk to people that are fixated upon negs....

regardless of whether they are real or not i'm sure you've observed that the more you dwell upon them, the more they show up.... and if they were real.. THEY'D WANT THAT...t hey'd want you going out of your way to obsess over every little superstitious thing you could do to protect yourself from them, the more thought you give them, the more they know they are getting to you.

just immense yourself in positivity, don't deny the problem, but don't fixate upon it... when it happens you're going to have to try to confront it rather than force yourself awake and hide and get freaked out....

if you can just CLEAR YOUR HEAD while out of body and they are haslling you, that should be all you need to seize control of them.... they can tell you interesting things too, though mine usually spouts off jiberish.

he told me last night that i'm meaner to him than he is to me and apparently we have a telepathic link...

so...

anyway.

My advice is to stop dwelling on this and stop reading about neg encounters. You should see improvement relatively soon.

quote:Originally posted by Vicky

Hi, I just wanted to give my thoughts even though I do not have experiences with ghosts. First I would suggest if you want to pray for her to find the light. I read in Robert Monroe books how he helped dead people. He just took them by their hand and flew towards the light with the intention to help the ghost move on. Then suddenly he would feel the ghost is not holding his hand anymore and had disappeared. This leads me to think that maybe you have to help her advance  just a little bit and then the angels will take over from there. I don't know if this will help you in any way. I don't remember exactly the details of Robert Monroe's helping and I don't have the book to write it here, but that's the only thing I can think of. Maybe you just have to take her and try to find the light yourself leading her to it and then just let her go... I don't know, that was just my opinion [][:I]

assuming this is real, would it work with demons, too?

what does establishing solid focus do for you if your method of getting there is to not be focused at all (hence falling asleep)

i don't just imagine that i'm sleepy, i make myself start falling asleep, either by looping a nonsensical thought in my head over and over, or by focusing on my fan, or by sometimes thinking as loud as i can.

i just try and find a balance, if my mind wanders too much i won't fall asleep and need to start thinking to restore some balance... if i'm thinking too much i need to do breath awareness and repeat the first random thought to enter my head over and over again on a loop to promotoe unconscious activity.

but whatever i do it's largely detached and involves not focusing, that's the whole point toward getting there, not being focused.

[28th]

well i had a dream about a stage and large amounts of people....

but it was very subjective in nature given it was at my school and whatnot and kind of related to tool and such...

I had it the morning of the 28th and, apparently, so did you?

http://dreamjournal.org/dj/index.cfm?do=getdream&dream_id=38311
(oh and the dream is long and sort of sexually explicit)


oh yeah and it kind of reminded me a lot of Eternal Sunshins of the Spotless Mind... except I just now saw that movie yesterday... maybe I saw some sort of preview dialogue between them about being real though.. and I did see a beach in the commercials for it definitely.. so it could have been inspired by that.

I don't know.

wisp

"Do these negative beings mean, bad company is better than no company to you?"

i'm not sure if you were asking me that, but that's a good point.... right now i have no company to begin with, but the past (and only) relationship i've had with a woman was more harmful to me than it ever was good, yet i clinged onto it and wouldn't let go until she ended it all.

but i'd like to think i've learned a lot since then, but i have nothing to apply to it since i don't really have any relationships going on right now at all.

i think i might probably fall back into what i was in before, if i had a girlfriend, and that scares me, but since i acknowladge that as a possibility i would think that if/when i ever get into a relationship again it should be a definite growth of character and reflect a change in me, since though i am still kind of in the same dependant mindset as before, i can now analyze it from the outside and perhaps overcome it.

but i can't overcome it without engaging in another relationship, i don't think.... unless i had some profound metamorphosis through drugs, dreaming, meditating, etc... which seems unlikely.

i know that i am largely denying "myself" though right now, which i can't do much about given my somewhat oppressive environment....

and i will be denying myself for a long time to come, since the government thinks they have the right to tell me what i can and cannot put into my body.... they don't want us exploring our minds i suppose.

there are a few legal alternatives though, but i'm in an environment that is very hostile to everything that i am and want to be (my family) so... there's not a lot i can do about it right now.

I think these demons are probably actually caused by all my conflicts with my family and with not being able to do what I want to do with myself.... but i figured that out a long time ago and it never really made them go away, I guess perhaps I'd have to fix the problems, not just acknowladge them.

the only time this happens to me (how am i to open my eyes while sleeping, for example?) is when i sometimes abruptly wake up while in the middle of a falling asleep process, or something...

i don't know, it's happened maybe 3 times.

this is a pretty cool experience i had if you want to read it
http://dreamjournal.org/dj/index.cfm?do=getdream&dream_id=38087

i'm not sure that's a good idea.

simulating the feeling you get right before you fall asleep tends to ...

well.. make you fall asleep, and drift in and out and not be able to focus no matter what you do.

but for me that seems the only way to try and get to a "trance" in the first place, so it's a huge paradox.

do you mean telepathic as in you aren't speaking with your voice? or as in you can share and download memories, etc?

I notice if i really pay attention that I usually can't "hear" my "voice" while dreaming... like I can't even make a sound sometimes, but yet I can talk with the voice in my head to people.

So this isn't always the case... sometimes I can sing really really well in my dreams, but I guess since you are paralyzed while sleeping sometimes your brain has difficulties with making you talk or yell in dream, so that's why you end up speaking to people through your mind.

I'm not sure if that is what you mean or not though.

well the thing about all of this is none of us knows the "truth" we all have various beliefs but I mean... we dont' even know that there is an unconscious mind, per se.... I personally know that when I am falling asleep I have thoughts that are rambling, nonsensical, and beyond my control, which sure backs up the theory of the unconscious mind... but still, it could be that there is an entirely different explanation for such events.

The same holds true for dreams. While I know that they are very very subjective and based almost entirely upon me, my memories, experiences, expectations, and thoughts, I can't really explain why if dreams were 100% isolated to ME... that while fully lucid, I would ever have even the slightest problem in having bad things that I don't want to happen pop up.

It may be 100% explained by the unconscious literally being another mind that I'm interfacing with, so communicaiton between us isn't always fluent, and it's just as stubborn as I am, but I don't know.


This happens every night, I'm lucid every night (unless I absoultely don't want to be and want proper rest).

Last night I was at my grandmas, became lucid, tried to fly up through the ceiling to go to the astral (which of course i got the idea from by reading posts here, i don't know that i believe in an "astral" or not...)

I couldn't do it... asked my grandma about it, but while asking her I knew that it was a confidence problem.. she affirmed that and said "you can do it, you just need the proper confidence" I knew that the whole time, yet her saying it seemed as if... maybe I affirmed that into a deeper area of my mind (the "unconscious") and so then it spit that back out at me, realized I needed confidence, gave it to me, and thus helped me through the ceiling...

anyway I came to a place with tons of mountains (and again this is directly influenced by a post i read, that guy went to a mountainous place too) and it was very pretty...

There was some house there, and I was wandering along and I think some small green thing latched onto my neck... what most of you would call a "neg".... now Im not sure if this happened because of doubts I was having, but it was a new environment and with all the reading about negs and stuff I probably was a bit cautious... but I could get the thing off of me... I tried energy awareness in the neck area to try and force it out but I couldn't focus very well.

The feeling gradually withdrew and I wandered around, there was a lake and some flooded houses and I intended to walk on the water but couldn't... it was murky and I was afraid of what was in there but I assured myself there wasn't anything bad... I saw a few fish and that was it.

So anyway... then I went to magic mountain.... first non lucid, then lucid... the lucid version wasn't very real at all.. and much of magic mountain was flooded with water, too...

I wanted to go to X and briefly thought up some sort of water transit system kind of like the tubes in futurama and got sucked down into the water, shot up into the air, and eventually was draw toward x.

So anyway to make this shorter (and cut out a lot of details) while in a tediously long line (despite cutting a huge portion of it) I was next to some girl, and I got the notion that I wanted to kind of make out with her.... we were sitting on the floor and she rested her head upon me (and all this was influenced by a few thoughts that passed through my head)

and we started kissing, and then the thing that always happens to me when I have sex (i don't feel like describing it right now) happened... and I said "are you a demon?" and she said yes..... (happens all the time) so.... we fought for a bit, I easily won... we talked... I dont' remember about what other than why this keeps happening... and I said "is anyone else in here a demon" almost the entire station full of people was.... (i think i kind of expected this though... i'm not sure, but i was still kind of surprised that there were NO normal people in the station)

i told them all to leave, they angrily did (i expected them to be angry) and then there were a few people left... I asked them who they were... none were human (i don't think) one girl said she was a demon, but a good demon...she gave me her name, and I recognized it, and "her" (sort of) but I don't know where form, it's the typical kind of false dream memory...

i asked her to show me what she looked like... and she turned into some sort of weird small box with an extending... tentacle or something.... and was tan colored....

i told her she could hang around me if she wanted but she was not to mess with me or take any of my 'energy' unless i specifically gave it to her voluntarily.



okay so anyway... the point is... I am thinking all of this.. all this demon nonsense... I think its from when I first started posting here and getting into OBEs and read about negs and energy and telekenesis and all that jazz... and you know I wanted to be open minded about it.. and I got sucked into believing it enough to legitimately worry about demons and negs and stuff... but I was never really sure if I believed it or not.

Then this all really started happening on the huge scale that it did... and I think I'm having these recurring dreams because I still am unsure of what I believe...

because when I have them... I'm in the state of mind/beliefs that I was back then... I think in terms of negs being energy vampires... I almost believe in it... I dont' usually think "this is all BS, it isn't real, you don't have an energy source to be leeched off of, all this is happening because of what you've read"

so i think because i refuse to either believe or refute these ideas, that it's caused some psychological turmoil or something... I don't know....

I have no clue, but that's kind of what I'm leaning towards right now.

So I mean if I believed in it fully, I could more successfully keep them from coming back... or if I didn't believe in it at all, it'd eventually stop happening... but since I'm in the middle the demon encounters are very random... and I've come to associate them with sex, which relates to all sorts of sex issues I have (being a lonely virgin) and the fact that I wonder if the girls I do things to in my dreams are real..

So...... it's just a big mess in my head and that's why it's becoming a recurring theme, because it's something I need to make a decision about, one way or another.

But based upon my overanalytic personality I find it impossible to commit to one set of belief values since I know that objectively there is no way of knowing if anything is ever "true".

If you've read all this, congratulations, lol.....

But I think that at least 95% of what I go through is isolated to my own mind.... but based upon some happenings (like contacting my friend... and little interesting synchronicities) that it may be possible to at least contact fellow humans while in dream/obe.

I dont' think an OBE is different from a lucid dream though.. though I think there may be different "levels" that you can access with both.

well personlly i don't at all believe in negs, and am skeptical about telepathy.

but how do you know whether you are in the so called "astral" or not, or if you are just in your own PERSONAL dreamscape?

I know there are no right answers here, but from your perspective, is there a way to know whether it is soley your dream or a shared dream, etc?

the thing about negs was until i started reading all these crazy neg stories, i never cared about, or ran into them.

which is why i don't believe in them and think we only experience them because of the stories we hear about them.

that and the things they tell me don't make any sense.

but i'm open to the possibility.

Since it doesn't happen to you anymore i dont' know what to tell you, but I'm inclined to think you were never really awake.

It was so along ago and you were so young that you would have EASILY mistaken a false awakening for being 100% real, and since that belief was never corrected you still believe it, only with time the belief grew more and more rigid as details faded out.

The only way for me to answer what would be happening is if you had done extensive reality checks (looking at clocks, trying to fly, pinching yourself, trying to force yourself awake)

If you really were awake, you can hallucinate upon waking up, and have the hallucinations linger exactly like after images from staring at a light.... I had it happen to me for the first time 2 weeks ago.... I had an "OBE" of sorts and some black grim reaper guy helped pull me out of my body.. I woke up later and "hell" or "help" was on the wall.. transparent and floaty, like I had stared at a neon light that said hell/help for a while...

and then I had a crazy obe within a lucid dream.... in some sort of realm with dark green eyes and Metallicas the unforgiven playing.. when I came out of it (into "reality") a red geometric figure was there.. following my vision wherever I looked.. and it stayed there for a good minute or so.... I rolled over and stuff too, so... I mean....

They are like the opposite of hypnagogic hallucinations... I believe.

So I suppose that makes them normal, though I certainly haven't experienced them much.

So it's more than possible your mind was still in dreaming mode while you were awake, and it had not a thing to do with superstition, the paranoormal/supernatural, auras, astral, or anything else.

and I did a lot of things I wish I could do now as a child, but I could never see auras, I'm pretty sure I would have remembered that.


(oh and yes I know the red thing was real because I did reality checks and when it faded away I went and drew what it looked like, and yes, the drawing is still here)

I dream like this almost EVERY SINGLE NIGHT.... I am serious...

I can't recall a time I haven't dreamed about sleeping unless i've been so sleep deprived that I didn't dream for more than a few minutes at a time.

I almost always have a point in my dreams where I dream about sleeping, usually in my room... I can go to sleep, feel like i'm sleeping, enter a dream, wake up (back into the initial dream) and carry on... I can dream that I'm so tired that I'm about to pass out.... I can dream about waking up and getting ready for school, thinking it's real, only to find that I haven't done so at all.

It's really fairly annoying sometimes... I think I never really hit a very "deep" level of sleep so I often times must be slightly aware of my sleeping body enough for it to really significantly impact my unconscious mind.

I don't know.

I also have OBEs within dreams... which is kind of pointless I guess.

as long as you stay asleep while the panic is going on your body should be able to keep itself functioning on a decent level, i would think...

i've been really really scared in a dream only to wake up very calm... and vice versa...

in a worst case scenario you can keep forcing yourself awake, it might take many tries and you might enter paralysis, and have false awakenings, but it'll eventually get you out.

i don't think it's anything to worry about at all unless you have a dire medical condition, becuase the sleep you are getting more than makes up for any emotional/physiological stress you endure... you know? Stay up for a few minutes after a bad experience, then go back to sleep and i'm sure your body will be great in the morning...

but i'd say non lucid dreams are more prone to giving you panic attacks than lucid ones themselves.

my experience is that you have to "try not to try" meaning you have to desire to get there, and you have to try to get there... but you also have to try to do NOTHING.

it's like when you first get ready to "meditate" you are at a three way road... you can either go to a really crappy state where your mind is constantly wandering, but you are aware of surroundings, it's that hellish state you get in while waking up and not being able to fall asleep, you seem to have constant awareness and rambling thoughts, but they are not the sleepy kind.

I'm not sure what to call that but I don't like it and if I'm not careful instead of going to sleep/hypnagognia, I go there.

Or you can go all the way to sleep.

Or you can stay in the middle like you are in a completely normal state of mind.

But once you embark in one direction it's very hard to go to another.

So what I do is I do a little bit of breath awareness... and I usually focus on the noise of my fan... I unconsciously affirm my desire to reach the near sleep area, while keeping my head clear, not interfering with the process of getting there.... and I just hold onto that desire...

I hold my thoughts clear, and then they start wandering, usually somewhat unconsciously... the second I notice that I have lost focus I look at my eyelids, physically, and suddenly, and it causes a little bit of an adrenaline feeling.... kind of like falling asleep.

After you do this a while, the feeling stops being artificial, and you don't have to look at your eyelids or focus at much at all... you'll just randomly jolt in and out of consciousness, in and out of track.

after maybe 5 of these falling type feelings you'll be very groggy and to a point where you know you won't be able to focus for more than a few seconds before going back in.

And from there I have no idea what you do, but you are about to enter hypnagognia, only an unconscious, sleeping kind of hypnagognia... how you enter that while staying focused is beyond me.

I've tried everything I can think of and it doesn't work.


But unless I'm hyper or full of energy I can reach this point in 5-20 minutes (usually 15)... so you could say it's at will.... about the only time I can't do it is if I've just had a nap or have been doing the in and out process for a long time.....

Generally I find it best to have been awake for at least 6 hours prior to trying this though.... becuase you are basically just turning the sleep mechanism on.



Basically the intent is to do nothing, so that you fall asleep, but it has to be a controlled and monitored nothing, becuase if you let it stay too unfocused you won't ever fall aslepe and just wander aimlessly in your head forever and get frustrated... which is why each time you drift off track you are to bring your focus back up and maybe even start voluntarily "thinking" (verbally) for a few seconds

that's easy to say now, but when i'm dreaming i often times aren't in my best form of judgement.

plus i can never ever tell whether they are real or not to begin with, hence the whole dillema.

I can also turn around and make them say "yes" and then "no" to the same question over and over again, based upon my expectations and what I'm thinking in my head.

So how do I know whether they actually want me to or not? I can make them not want to, and I can make them want to. That's the problem with lucidity.

If I'm not lucid I usually abstain from just about anything because I'd be my normal self with my normal inhibitions.

quote:Originally posted by Nay



I probably couldn't describe it that is why I left it out..[:I] You explained it much better!  Thanks H.R.!

Nay

too bad it's never worked for me... [B)]

I can't even fall asleep while doing this though... like I went to bed last night and I knew I was going to fall asleep soon naturally, I about put music on but knew that if I did that I wouldn't get enough sleep.. I needed to get out immediately... so I just did what I normally do when trying to OBE... which is very loosely focus upon keeping the mind clear, enough so that when it wanders for a period, you bring it back to clearness.

That wandering/clearness transition over and over again eventually makes you fall asleep. So I guess in about 15 minutes I started drifting and I just couldn't fall asleep at all, I'd keep jolting out of it over and over again.

I really hate this so much. I must have some sort of sleeping disorder or something... I'm going to write down every time I wake up or almost fall asleep but then jolt awake tonight.

like you said... it's like going to sleep...

which is why i can't stay focused while i'm in it.. because i drift in and out of sleep

that is what you want to do, but you just want your body to do the drifting (into paralysis) and not your mind.

but i guess the really groggy barely aware of your body kind of "drunk" and heavy feeling is being in alpha then?

Probably alpha that is very close to theta...

That state is really weird... sometimes it feels really awful to be in... almost painful and sick.. sometimes it feels great... sometimes it feels both at the same time.

i guess it usually feels bad when you're tired and want to fall asleep but you can't, and are stuck there.

it sounds to me like these half second dreams ARE hypnagognia.... i have the same problem..

i jerk in and out of borderline light sleep... sometimes i get deep enough to have a 1/100th of a second rush of paralysis while i'm coming out... but while i'm in i'm not conscious

becuase my conscious mind will be going, but my unconscious mind over powers... it's like

c:"1....2....3..........4.................5"
u:"..............BLAH BLAH BLAH blah...blah...... BLAH!"

and then I snap out of it... so it's like some sort of split consciousness I guess...

one thing that seems like it might be successful is when I get to the borderline state about to fall asleep... I think really loudly, and I take the thoughts, and I push them on "top" of everythign else... as if I were mentally squeezing onto them really tight... and I sort of "push" while looking at my eyelids and thinking about my body, and holding the thoughts loudly above everything else.

this keeps me from falling asleep... but it doesn't take me all the way out of the borderline state, just closer to the top of it... and it makes me feel a bit heavy... but not trance heavy.

the problem is at night, all i have to do to enter a trance (if my mind is in the right state and doesn't need sleep) is focus on my body.. that's it... nothing more.. I focus on it and feel it slowly go numb...

but if i'm doing it from being fully awake if i focus on my body that almost seems to have the complete opposite effect.

i don't know.

hypnotist, how are you supposed to do the eye thing to yourself? Use your own hand?

Do you have to speak the suggestions to yourself in your head?

my problem is staying "conscious" i can shut MY mind off but then my "subconscious" won't shut up, and the more it goes on, the deeper I get... so if I don't think at all, then I drift in and out, but I lose consciousness and basically fall partially asleep then jolt awake.

now if i try to keep my mind awake, i can't get that deep, becuase i'm thinking, in order to keep it awake i pretty much have to be thinking.

and if i get deep then start thinking, i can't keep it up for very long becuase my mind is partially asleep and tired.

so i theorize that i'm bypassing alpha and trying to jump into theta, and that is why i get the jerks... becuase I mean.. I never feel relaxed.. as soon as I jolt awake I'm extremely uncomfortable, and I stay that way the entire time, til I begin to lose consciousness

but i never hit that nice relaxed "i could melt and stay here forever" feeling like I get if my stupid alarm goes off and I don't want to get up and I feel wonderfully groggy.

i think that is the alpha state.. and I think I'm somehow bypassing it.

all it means is that you are about to go into a state of light sleep but are failing.

anything beyond that is theory, it's called a myoclonic jerk, though...

i like the idea that the body thinks it's dying due to it rapidly shutting itself down (sleep/trance) and so it sends a jolt into you, bringing you back into focus.

it does mean you are pretty close though, but it also probably means you are losing focus, as it usually happens when you suddenly lose awareness, or gain awareness from a state of semi-unconsciousness... at least for me.