Messages

Nightflier- I think you hit the nail on the head in your last post about these realms being all around us.  Last night I was listening to parts of Robert Bruce's interview with Art Bell and he talked about a place where there is a giant grid, and within each grid there is a structure (which he describes as being similar to the picture on the cover of astral dynamics)- this structure is a sort of door than upon entering one finds himself in a certain astral realm.  Bruce even talks about mapping these out.  
  Of course one of the most difficult things is that, just like our waking physical life, everything is so SUBJECTIVE or in other words it's different for everybody depending on their belief system, personal experiences, etc.
   In regards to your original post I would have to say that for astral travellers to all meet in one place would be possible, but not probable- giving the fact that most of us are all beginners and also we are all on different levels of understanding and progression.  I do believe, however, there are indeed realms and planes inhabited by beings all of a certain level of progression/light or however you would want to classify this.  The fact of the matter is that when we leave these bodies for the last time (death) these things will become much more clear.  Until then it's going to be interesting (and it's sure to be just as interesting afterwards)


"Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?"

Although I shall take the time at a later date to comment on this topic, I just wanted to say something about Nightfliers experiment.  I think what he did, which was to toss a random card into a suspended shoe box lid and then project his consciousness in order to identify it- This is a great idea.  We should all attempt similar in home experiments and then report, even if it is just in our personal journals, but even more importantly in forums such as this...I find this "grassroots" type of experimentation to be very important to help us all truly realize the potential of our own minds and of course this is extremely beneficial to those who sre skeptical or otherwise wary about this.

"Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?"

Intriguing...and no, I haven't verified a date, although I have had somewhat similar experiences.  I am also interested by the date- Dec. 23 has a special significance for me (religously) and it seems to pop up quite often.  Keep us updated.

"Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?"

Very interesting...I think, as W.W. said, it's truly a matter of individual needs. Thanks for all of your guys' insights.
-Dan

"Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?"

Mobius,
You bring up a very interesting topic, this idea of rescuing souls.  Forgive my incessant citing of Monroe's work, but you understand it's because I am reading him for the first time and thus my thoughts are geared that way, but in "Ultimate Journey" he relates his experiences about rescuing souls.  I found these accounts to be the most interesting parts of that book.  

My religion involves Temple worship...and we do work for the dead, as we call it.  I had the hardest time as I grew up understanding why we did ordinances in proxy for those who have passed "beyond the veil" (more of our terminology).  

Anyway, I have come to realize as I have continued to progress in my knowledge, which is still at the inital budding stages, that there is a great need for advanced spirits, beings to help those who are stuck in the lower realms and want to ascend.  Notice I used the word "want", for not everyone who has not ascended DESIRES to ascend...but there are plenty of people who want to ascend but cannot.  

I mean look around at our society (I speak mostly of American society, but I have lived in Europe and have found it to be similar)...most people get up, go to work, come home, eat, watch t.v., buy their digital toys, fancy cars...I mean talk about "the unexamined life".  It's truly pathetic and sad.  How many people still look up at the stars and think, who am I?  What am I?  What is there after this life?  Not too many.  Well, I think occassionaly people think about these things, and then either dismiss them or find a belief system that simply stems the tide of fear and puts the burden of the weight on preachers or says, "Well, I am saved...so I've done what I need to."

Many of these same people are in for quite a shock when they realize the the after life isn't much different from this one, in that they still need to imporove themsleves and gain knowledge in order to progress....and these are the "good" people.  Then there are thos individuals who are addicted to hard drugs, sex, violence, etc.  They are going to be stuck way down for a long time, until they are ready or desire to ascend (when is that?)  

Well, I am going off here.  But I think the thought I was originally following was that those who have ascended quite a ways up the ladder can and do descend in order to teach and help those who want to ascend but need instruction and love.  

I know what I have written is somewhat abstract and is highly steeped with my own beliefs and feelings, but I think the general idea is valid and definetly up for discussion.

Much love!
-DT

"For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as
gods, knowing good and evil."

"Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?"

"If ye love me, keep my commandments."

Edited by - daniel on 01 April 2002  10:27:53

Thank you so much for sharing that with me MJ...I will visit spirtwebs page on the Kabbalah...I am in the same boat you were in, I have discovered so much in the pure way (on my own and with help from God) but now I want to investigate what the Kabbalah has to say in order to better conceptualize it in a temporal way...
thanks again!

Let thy BOWELS ALSO BE FULL OF CHARITY towards all men, and to the
household of faith, and let VIRTUE GARNISH THY THOUGHTS unceasingly; then
shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God."
D&C 121:45

Frank,

Thanks for sharing that experience.  If it all happened as you say (which I have no reason not to believe it didn't) I think this experience surely teaches not only you, but all of us something.  Although I am sure there are those who are very experienced in the astral who have already had similar experiences, I have not.

I have had OBE's, but all of them have been spontaneous or have been initiated from the lucid state.  Anyway, after doing a great deal of reading on the subject, and now after reading your post, I realize that I have only been on the "lower levels" and the real-time level.  

I thought the part about the second area you went to (towards the buildings following the women) very intriguing...especially the part about how the details became bland, just enough to allow you to do what you had started out to do.  I also think the feelings you experienced afterward says a lot about regression.  What I mean is that for us beginners, had we followed the women and done "whatever" it would be much different than if someone like yourself, who was on a higher level, would have "followed up" because it would have represented a certain "regression" or "descension" on the astral ladder.  

Although it was just an experiment, obviously someone or something (probably your "higer self") apparently thought it wasn't a good idea.  It may be possible that those who have ascended to higher spheres could come back down and then get caught up in things going on in the lower astral, thus thwarting what I believe is the natural tendency for us as children of God to do: progress.  Anyway, I have started to ramble.  Forgive me, but I simply love posts by those who do have conscious OBE's.  It seems like there are either few here who do, and fewer who are willing to share their experiences.  Is it because they become "too personal" as one gets more advanced, or is it because it becomes to difficult to put into words?  Probably a mixture of the both.

Ciao tutti!
Dan


Let thy BOWELS ALSO BE FULL OF CHARITY towards all men, and to the
household of faith, and let VIRTUE GARNISH THY THOUGHTS unceasingly; then
shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God."
D&C 121:45

Thanks!  I'll be sure to check that out...and by the way, I am not a vegeterian, but it seems to make me feel much better when I avoid heavy foods (ie. meats, cheese, etc.)
Dan

Let thy BOWELS ALSO BE FULL OF CHARITY towards all men, and to the
household of faith, and let VIRTUE GARNISH THY THOUGHTS unceasingly; then
shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God."
D&C 121:45

This is the second time that my reply will officially "ignite" my topic (you know, the nifty little fire/folder icon) and I think it's quite appropriate.  Every since Mr. Vaquez told us that "two heads are better than one" in my high school freshman "world history" class, I have been of the firm belief that getting others ideas, opinions, personal experiences, etc. about a thought or idea is a wonderful thing.

Anyway, Monroe's work obviously speaks for itself, and it's nice to see that all of us agree that he was a true pioneer in the field of self-realization.

About the "I" here, there, etc.  I guess in the end he did realize that the "I" there was just exactly that... it's mind boggling.  I sure hope that the "I" somewhere else doesn't come here and start screwing up my life! j/k

Well, I appreciate all of the thoughts and ideas.  I am just finishing JOOTB and next I am getting "Far Journeys" which I heard is just as fascinating.  I read "Ultimate Journey" first, so I kind of did everything a little out of order...and actually it's turned out to be sort of a fun way of discovering what he did, although reading them chronologically would definetly have been much more true to how he experienced everything.

-Daniel

Fascinating info. Violet and those of you who have been so kind to take time out of your lives to respond to my post.  I am definetly coming to a better understanding of these priciples!  I will post some more info on the topic as soon as possible.
-Daniel

"Everybody does it and if they say they don't, then they are lying".  This is something you have doubtlessly heard in your life at some point and it is false.  Obviously this is something that is usually more of an issue for men than women...

The bottom line is that there are those people who do not partake in this activity...they are usually people who try to avoid negativity in all it's forms (thoughts, actions, etc.)  I agree with Julia in regards to the total loss of energy (physical and emotional)- while on the other hand with a partner there is an exchange of sorts.

I also recommend reading Robert's article on the subject of avoiding negativity on the homepage.  

-Dan

Well, I've been thinking more about this particular experience that Monroe had and have been trying to figure out why/how he could really take part in this other individuals life.  

After reading Bruce's article about re-incarnation (found under the articles link on the hompepage- www.astraldynamics.com) I have come to think that this other person is possibly himself, but in another time/dimension... read, or re-read this article by Bruce and I think you will know what I'm saying.  I am just hypothesizing here because this of course is all very hypothetical.

-Dan

Good to hear from you all...I really want to try those hemi-sync tapes that you talked about Mobius...can you tell me where to find them (on the net, phone number, etc)??

Qui-Gon-Jinn -->  I look forward to your post!

-Dan

Blue Light:  I understand that while out of body, one's thoughts are conveyed immediately, so when you thought that the animal was cute, your astral body made the sounds, right?  I have never experienced exactly that so I found it very interesting.  Thanks for the detailed explanation.

I need to come clean...although I have read everything from Bruce that's on the net, I have NOT read Astral Dynamics.  I just ordered it online (the autographed copy- have any of you ordered the autograph??- I thought it would be cool to show friends...) and am looking forward to pouring over it.

I agree with the fact that the lack of new age terms, etc. makes his work MUCH more accessible for the layman.  In fact when I finish it, I am going to pass it on to my father who doesn't know much, if anything, about OBE's, etc.  

I am under the impression that AD is much like Robert's treatsie, just much more in depth and detailed...is this a true statement??

DAN

I just wanted to say that although I don't agree with everything DeGarcia said, I thought that the exerpt I shared at least provided some food for thought, and I think I was right.

Anyway, I love Monroe's work, but Ultimate Journey is definetly different from his other works.  I think he got to the point at which it became difficult to explain himself with words, if you know what I mean.

Qui-Gon Jinn (how did you come up with your name???)  I didn't mean any harm by what I said.  First of all, I am very skeptical that ET's have or are visiting our planet, although I don't rule it out completely as a possibility....but after having read "Grand Illusions" by Dr. Gregory Little in regards to UFO's and the like, I changed my opinion about the whole thing (remember I brought this up in the past?)

Little himself was an avid UFOlogist for decades, and he finally came to the conclusion that abductions and UFO's were simply beings, archetypes, etc. (whatever you may) from different ends of the light spectrum....(that's an overly simplistic explanation)...anyway, I think he was right when he said most UFOlogists lie to themselves and deep down they are looking for something else.  

I ask you to do this: post a new message (maybe under integral phil. or general metaphysics) explaining in detail WHY you think aliens are visiting earth.  Tell us HOW YOU CAME to believe this, what PROOF (link to photos, etc.--not links to cryptic web pages that ask for credit cards in order to look at a bunch of gov't docs that basically don't say anything, if you know what I mean.)

I believe crafts are seen, photographed, etc. but I do not think beings from other planets are coming and interacting with us and abducting people...I think all of these things are the product of negs aiming to decieve.  

I highly recommend looking into Dr. Greg Littl's book, it is very illuminating...

-Dan

Thanks for the responses!  About the classification of different areas/zones/planes etc. -I agree that it's important yet maybe impossibile.  What do you all think about Robert Bruce's seperations/classifications (he makes them in OBE treatsie and AD)?

EXCUSE THE FORMAT- Copying and pasting is always a pain...
IN regards to what this topic has led to ("Franks idea")

I don't necessarily think along this lines exclusively, but DeGarcia does and here's what he has to say:
(taken from:
http://www.spiritweb.org/Spirit/monroe-books-review.html

               By Don DeGracia (72662.1335@CompuServe.COM):

                    Hi

                    I too read UJ with some disapointment. First, it makes sense that Monroe was both BB *and*
                    the INSPEC. If anything, this should be a lesson to all you OBEers out there about what a large
                    role the psychological process of "projection" plays during OBEs. (i.e. the projecting of ones
                    psyche onto the content of the OBE experience) Don't forget, these are journeys into the inner
                    realms of one's mind. If you go OBE and want to believe everything that happnes to you there is
                    not somehow related to your own internal psychology, then you are deluded to whatever extent
                    you fail to realize this. In other words, Monroe's final book is a beautiful illustation of how the
                    mind can concoct the most elaborate fantasies imaginable as a sheer expresion of itself.

                    Now, this is not to say that Monroe's experiences are "mere fantasy". However, it seems to me
                    increadible that Monroe himself was so nieve as to take all these "adventures" at face value
                    without realizing that it was he himself creating all this and that all he was perceiveing was
                    himself.

                    The other thing I found extrodinarily disapointing about UJ was Monroe's journey to the very
                    edge of "the Source". Monroe was a hair's breath away from coming into direct contact with the
                    source of all existence, yet he didn't. He perceived this force as too overwhelming for him to
                    deal with. If anything, this was a symbol from Monroe to himself telling him that he should
                    lighten up a bit. Afterall, the source of all existence permeates all things constantly. It is not far
                    from us in any sense. It *is* us. To envision this source as something overwhelming, and
                    seperate from us is not right. If anything, in Monroe's case, this was a symbol of just how far
                    seeped he is in his physical personality. In other words, the symbolism of his journey to the
                    source, and failure to get there, was a message to Monroe from his own subconsciousness
                    indicating the need to relax his ego.

                    If there is any reasonable take home message from UJ, its that, in large part, the OBE is a
                    product of your own mind, and what you experience there is shaped by your inner thoughts,
                    desires, etc. As a matter of fact, when you OBE, you are stepping directly into the realm that
                    psychologists call the "unconscious". For those of you not familiar with this term, I recommend
                    reading up on the ideas of Carl Jung.

                    In general, I think UJ illustrates that, in large part, Monroe simply did not get it. He has never
                    come to truely understand the significance of the OBE in terms of being a step in personal
                    maturity and spiritual evolution. Instead, he got caught up in what occultists traditionally call
                    "the glamour of the astral realms".

                    Again, to keep balance to my assesment, I am not saying Monroe's work is not valuable. He
                    has clearly confirmed what occultists have taught all along about the structure of the inner
                    worlds (which he calls "rings" but occultists call "planes") and these are the various layers of
                    consciousness that make up the inner realms. However, his nieve interpretation of his
                    experiences lack a lot of depth and he really seems to be missing out on a very basic aspect of
                    the OBE, which is the stepping into one's own subconsciousness.

                    The lesson he was meant to learn - that his very being is at one with the essence of all things -
                    he appears to have missed.

                    Also, I think his assertion that our personalities survive death intact is mere defence
                    mechanism to the possibility of his ego in the face of annihilation and death, and again
                    indicates just how caught up in himself he is. Further, Monroe presents no really convincing
                    evidence that this is true. He merely asserts it under the assumption that after he dies his
                    expereinces in the OBE realm will be identical to what they are now while he is alive. There is
                    no good evidence for this. Occultists have long taught about the nature of the after-death state,
                    and they claim that our physical personality eventually disentegrates freeing up the inner
                    essence (or "soul") that powered the personality through this life. My own experiences in the
                    OBE realm support the traditional occult view.

                    So, sorry to all you Monroe fans out there that really like Bob's work. I too went through a
                    phase where I was really enamoured with Bob's work. But as I've grown and learned more and
                    studied my own OBEs more closely and learned to think about them with more depth, I've
                    become more dissapointed with Bob's approach. I think to follow in his footsteps and to
                    mindlessly try to emmulate what Monroe has done is not the proper course. As I have learned,
                    the OBE is a stepping into ones own psyche, and it is a mere stage on a journey of spiritual
                    evolution, a journey that should culminate in the realization of ones direct connection with all
                    that is. And of course, my own views reflect where I am at on this journey.

                    Best to you all,

                    Don DeGracia

jo- Hey, I really enjoyed your last post.  I too believe that this is a school of "hard knocks" and one thing I had to face is that although our spirit bodies are wonderful, the physical body is just as important.  We need to find balance and that's why we have both.

In fact, I and my associates take it a step further.  First of all we believe that even spirit is matter (everything is matter), just a less (much less you could say) dense form of matter...and that it's indestrcutable...although it could possibly be disorganized to the point that we might consider it "destroyed" although it would still exist...well, you get what I am saying hopefully.  Anyway, we also believe that the spirit, after death, will be reunited with the body, but this time a perfect and eternal body.  This doesn't mean we will have all of the same restrictions, etc. that the physical body means for us here.  I think, for example, that even with the new body we will be able to appear anywhere we want, or be every where at once, but through the power of the mind.

Anyway, just felt impressed to share that!
DT

Whoa!  Slow down there!  
If your "belief structure" is changing like the wind, it means that you don't have a structure yet...which can be good and/or bad.  I guess if I can say one thing, it's this: take it slow, follow the things that make you feel good, and be still and know God exists.  

Other than that read like a madman, stay open minded and be positive!

(I think I said a lot more than "one thing", didn't I?)

Does your brain hurt yet

Is there a particular question you had Lateralus897??  If so, let us know.  I have been studying WILD,DILD quite a bit in the last few years...and I know exactly what you were saying in your post.  

I have some info that is VERY helpful if you want to experience more LDs...it's quite simple.  I found it on a website and although it is common sense, like I said, it's very helpful and efective.  

I will post the website soon (you may have already seen it?)
-DT

Blue Light Mystic you wrote:
"for some reason was a little mesmerized at it's beauty and also saw and heard my astral body oohheing and ahhheing it."

Describe what you mean here...it sounds fascinating!  Does your astral body or YOU make the sounds??

I shouldn't comment, but I will.  I just wanted to say that there is definetly a feeling of contention on this thread, nothing serious of course.  I think Frank made a great point in his original post about pushing any fear away and letting things happen...I don't profess to be an authority in anyway on this subject, but I do know that fear is the root of almost every obstacle we face, and it's competely created by US.  Once we begin to realize this, then nothing is impossible...of course it's easier said than done.

Qui-Gon Jinn: I think you need to just come out and admit to Frank and others your fascination with UFO's and the like.  When Frank said everything is WITHIN, I think I understood what he meant and that doesn't mean I need to agree with him 100%.  I think a better way of dealing with this comment would be to inquire more deeply about his personal beliefs.  

Anyway, about the whole Strobe thing...I would definelty have to agree that this topic, or one very similar, was previously discussed under the title of "Slapped on the Forehead" or something of that nature.

Peace to all!

Thanks for the info guys...I have actually read most of "Ultimate Journey" and it was very interesting (my secret is to simply check them out from the library).

Anyway, Jo, do you really think while your out of body someone could enter yours?  Usually (nearly always) the individual is sleeping when OBE.  From what I understand, and I admit it's not a great deal, the only time someone could control my body, for example, is if I allow them to in some way.  

All of the authorities on the subject generally claim that while OOBE,  the physical body is USUALLY asleep and thus even if someone entered it, what would they do, sleep for me?

Anyway, Monroe was/is a very interesting guy...I wouldn't mind knowing what he is doing in this very moment!

Peace!
Dan

I just wanted to add how sad it made me to see the shock treatments being administered in the film.  Does anyone know why they used them?  I could guess to how it affected the brain, but the details I don't know.

Anyway, I think this gives us a good idea of how a once believed in "cure" looks barabric to us only a few decades later.  Maybe in twenty years we will look back at today's popular psychiatric practices (medications, etc.) and wince...<--(did I spell "wince" correctly??)





Edited by - daniel on 29 March 2002  09:37:34