Messages

DFL-
It certainly is possible to encounter others in the 3d blackness state.
I have'nt done so but I have read of many accounts (inc published NDE accounts) where people come across beings who identify themselves as guides and try to help the individual remain calm and come to terms with what's happening.
It seems that although the 3d blackness is very much a personal zone in that it is where YOUR mind meets the astral, it is indeed possible for others to turn up there and asist you, or just observe.

Douglas

Additionally, my fiance is first generation south Korean...
-------------------------------------------------------

I think this is your connection to that part of the world.

Douglas

Come on Chris, all that revelation stuff was primarily geared towards the period in which it was written, so the whore of Babylon, the harlot and all that kind of guff was references to the fall of Rome, which Christians believed was coming - within their lifetime..
It was written in a vague fashion to avoid official retribution (although this still happened) so it can be re-interpreted by anyone.
It was a revolutionalry movement(or terrorist movement if your a Roman).

However, I wouldnt take any notice of those who try to re-interprate it for a modern scenario - with a bit of imagination you can get a square peg to fit in a round hole wit little trouble - bible scripture have long suffered from this misuse, thinking that judgement day was just round the corner - they convieniantly ignore the fact that all these things were meant to pass within a lifetime following Jesus' death.. There is a new academic study that indicates that perhaps the Great fire of Rome in 68AD WAS started by christian sects who were trying to bring about the 'fall of Babylon' as described in their mythology as several large fires have recently been discovered in other Roman cities and appear to have been started on the same night.

Douglas

cainam_nazier -

uuuummmmm..........OK!

your visions are certainly erm, interesting. I think it would make a good movie!

Douglas

I dunno Chris, consider that lots of people get killed in horrific and nasty ways every minute of the day around the world, sometimes in significant numbers. its unlikely that you'll pick up these deaths in South Korea which is only significant compared to all the othrs in that its been televised.
But then again, perhaps your attuned to that part of the world for some reason!

Douglas

I'm not really into these 'end of days' scenarios which just smack to me of standard judeo-christian apocalyptic mythology... seems very popular in the USA however, where I was suprised (and slightly disturbed) to hear that most people seems to take the biblical style 'judgement day' scenario as a matter of fact!

Regards,
Douglas

Yeah, I agree that the '3d blackness' is part mind and part astral, or rather, its that area where your mind meets the astral. So you can use it as a grand central station to go anywhere!

There's nothing scary or evil about it so calling it an 'abyss' or 'hell' is totally wrong IMO. However if someone really believes thats what it is, then thats how they'll see it.

As the saying goes, we take heaven and hell with us. So there are plenty of constructed heaven and hells but they are products of our own thought.

Douglas

Parmenion-

Yeah, I really like Gemmel's books as well. I've read a lot of his books and Lion of Macedon and Dark Prince are amazing!

I'ts interesting that OBE experiences figure quite a lot in Gemmel's books and I've always wondered if he's had any personal experience of them or knows people who have.
You'll nearly always find at least one character in a book who has an OBE type experience.

Regards,
Douglas
PS I'm a particular fan of his arthurian cycle - although I wish he wrote more of them!

Hi Parmenion! (ever read any David Gemmel books?)

With regards to choice of decks, I was not trying to advise people to ONLY use the thoth and waite decks. I agree that the deck should 'resonate' with you when you look at them. If you like them then you should get them. Its just that these two decks are tried and tested and most newcomers to tarot shouldnt go wrong.

There are some dodgy decks out there, which was the reason for my note of caution. For example, 'the vampire tarot' doesnt sound to me like its been designed by a proper student of the occult, but more likely by some goth, pop-occult wanabee (ie what the media terms 'satanism')
I wouldnt imagine that their handle on archetypal symbols is very good either!

Just listen to your intuition and it will help you decide what deck feels right for you!

Douglas

The program was called 'The day I died'.
I'll try and find the exact air date and let you know!

Douglas

I would honestly be surprised if any frequent lucid dreamer/OBE'er tested under 130. Few will admit to it for fear of seeming immodest, puffed-up, or vain.
Leyla
-----------------------------------------------

This kind of sweeping statement annoyed me so much that going against all my previous postings here about IQ, I decided to check out my own for the first time.
After taking 4 different internet iq tests, my IQ always scores around 126.

Now I AM a fairly regular obe'er and lucid dreamer, this ability has developed over time since I started sharing experiences with other people on this forum.
As you can see my IQ is *under* 130, contrary to Leyla's sweeping statement about how she would be suprised 'if any frequent lucid dreamer/OBE'er tested under 130'. I obe or lucid dream quite often, I can regulate with a fair amount of accuracy how often I have them and my control has increased over the past year or so, indicating that obe is a skill that can be learned through hard graft.

We should really try to avoid sweeping statements and also the irritating if all to human tendancy to try to catagorise and compartmentalise everything, like saying that good control of obe tends to occur with people of 130+ IQ - nicely catagorised but probably not really true, certainly not in my case.

Douglas

What I disagree with here is that people are taking an IQ rating as an absolute measure of someone's intelligence. Some circles even insist that IQ is an indicator of 'absolute intelligence'.
Well, this is just utter tosh, all the IQ rating does is rate your *current* ability with problem solving questions.
It is a well known fact that if you take a test and are not happy with the result, but then go away and practice, you will achieve a much higher score.
In fact this ploy is used all the time by people who wish to boast a high score - they practice a lot and take test after test.
This means that all the IQ test has proved is that you have trained up your mind to deal with 'problem solving' puzzles - it is not a test of absolute intelligence - it may be a marker of *current* ability in a few certain areas, but this can be improved upon.

Douglas

Well, I think that people find this topic potentialy dangerous because by linking in themes of IQ and OBE, this can lead to OBE being usuped by elitist ideals. I know that's NOT what you are trying to do, but what Im saying is that if you go down this road, then there will be those who WOULD use this to create an elitist stance, which shouldn be encouraged, as this is too far an important area to be relagated to an imagined 'intelligensia'. The current IQ test has been largely usurped by elitest ideals IMO.

What I find disturbing from reading this thread is that as soon as one person broadcast their own IQ rating, there was an almost desperate urge by other posters to broadcast their own IQ ratings on the board.

I appreciate you question however, but I don't believe there is a fundamental connection, the only difference that might occur is that such experiences might be recognised and remembered.
However, I have found people from all walks of life who have had such experiences, I certainly have not heard of it happening more often in 'higher IQ' people, (if we really must make such a crass distinction - check your psychology department, you'll find that the standard IQ test is discredited in many circles anyway).

Regards,
Douglas

Sorry Micron, I didnt recrord it, but it might be worth asking at your department as often they tape tv programs that may be relevant to their subject, they do at my university at least.

About your death dreams - I used to get them now and again, I find it usually relates to change, that I am worried about change in some way. For example when I first started university I got a few of these dreams, indicating my concern and worries about sudden change. Of course, as it turned out the change was for the best, but I find that such concerns get manifested in my dreams by themes of death which is a metaphor for change and transformation.
In my one I looked inside a coffin and saw myself, in another I was gunned down!
I used to worry that these were premonitions that I was going to die but then I realised the highly symbolic nature of dreams!

Douglas

Sorry, posting error!

Douglas

Higher Selves do not reside within the Astral realms. Though other members of the Astral Family or Soul Family could be resident there.
------------------------------------------------------------


Yes, it seems that in each incarnation we channel or manifest an aspect of ourSelves (ie higher Self), we're still *us* but a part of us, restricted by our current personality and bodily incarnation (the word 'persona' is greek for 'actors mask').

I think it shows us how restricted we are in many ways due to being here and gives us a glimpse of our potential and also our danger.

I am reminded of my name sake-here, Gandalf from Tolkien's world.
Gandalf along with the rest of the 'wizards' (5 in total) were not human but were powerful maia spirits sent to Middle-earth to assist in the struggles of the free peoples of Middle-earth.

However, in order to function here they had to be embodied in humanoid forms. Many of their powers were lost in this state and much of their past was forgotten, also, because of their humanoid form they were open to the same corruptions and distractions that plague the rest of us, hense some lost their way and forgot their mission, Saruman being one of them - instead he used his powers for personal gain and attempted to become a Power in his own right, to rival Sauron.

In a similar way, I think we are sent here with a 'mission' to learn and experience different things, but being embodied, our world view is restricted, as well as our past, and we can get distracted, or  too enamoured of this world (like Saruman) and end up losing our way.

Douglas

Higher Selves do not reside within the Astral realms. Though other members of the Astral Family or Soul Family could be resident there.
------------------------------------------------------------


Yes, it seems that in each incarnation we channel or manifest an aspect of ourSelves (ie higher Self), we're still *us* but a part of us, restricted by our current personality and bodily incarnation (the word 'persona' is greek for 'actors mask').

I think it shows us how restricted we are in many ways due to being here and gives us a glimpse of our potential and also our danger.

I am reminded of my name sake-here, Gandalf from Tolkien's world.
Gandalf along with the rest of the 'wizards' (5 in total) were not human but were powerful maia spirits sent to Middle-earth to assist in the struggles of the free peoples of Middle-earth.

However, in order to function here they had to be embodied in humanoid forms. Many of their powers were lost in this state and much of their past was forgotten, also, because of their humanoid form they were open to the same corruptions and distractions that plaque the rest of us, hense some lost their way and forgot their mission, Saruman being one of them - instead he used his powers for personal gain and attempted to become a Power in his own right, to rival Sauron.

In a similar way, I think we are sent here with a 'mission' to learn and experience different things, but being embodied, our world view is restricted, as well as our past, and we can get distracted, or  too enamoured of this world (like Saruman) and end up losing our way.

Douglas

Hey Frank - what Adrian has been saying about aspects of the self and so on, fits in with the Bruce Moen concept of 'disks' that you have been looking at recently. I wasnt sure what Moen was going on about at first but it later twigged that disks are described in 'traditional' mystical terminology (which I prefer actually - personal bias!) as your 'soul family' or your 'group soul'. The idea behind the higher self stems from this too. I Agree that it takes some getting used to though!

Douglas

Thank you for your extensive reply Adrian - very interesting!

The the idea that we can also re-incarnate from the astral is interesting. If some people were stuck for long periods of time on the astral but managed to find some way to re-incarnate again, this would give them a crucial chance to improve their situation, especially if they had been stuck in an emotional loop for a long period of time..
In fact, we don't really know how many of *us* might have got here from such a situation, it makes you realise how important it is to try to make progress while we're here now, otherwise we might find ourselves stuck once again.

Regards,
Douglas

Adrian,
Would you like to comment on any of the above questions?

Regards,
Douglas

This topic is interesting but I think we have to remember that it is *not* universely recognised that IQ = intelligence and the IQ test is discredited in many research circles. This is because outside factors can affect the result, like how tired you are, nervousness, other things on your mind (although you might not be aware of them), underlying subconcious reasons which may interfere with the test and so on.
This was found due to the amount of people getting differing results on separate occasions.
I just wanted to make this point because there seems to be a notion here that IQ is universally recognised as = intelligence, however many researchers in the field are widely critical of the standard IQ test. However, they realise its popularity with the general public and some institutions, esp in that it has been widely usurped by elitest ideals.
BTW I have never taken any kind of IQ test although I graduated with a good grade form university, I think my life experience and what I learned there is a higher indicator to me how 'intelligent' I am rather than relying on an essentially unreliable test.

Regards,
Douglas

Hey Tisha,
I've had a few similar experiences where the exit and entry sensations were the focus of the experience rather than what happened when I was out, in fact during these type of oobe's I can't even remember what happened and I suppose that it didn't really matter. I had the fealing that these experiences were to get me used to the idea of exit and entry.
I had a few of these and I found that the sensation was quite fun.
The last one I had was when I was lying in bed and I felt that peculiar 'rushing' sensation or vibration that means something is about to happen. I then felt myself detach and float upwards and then decend and settle back into my body again, it felt quite nice actually!

Douglas

I think that what's most interesting is that most of my progress so far has been when I have *not* been trying. It's always when I have a break that something happens!

Douglas

Thanks for the info Frank. Actually, I have been gettting the 3D effect quite often but it tends to occur if I wake during the night.
I agree that its not something we create but rather something that already exists but which we have to focus on. I feel that the 3d blackness is part astral/part mind in some way - the bridge or point at which your mind meets the astral. Its always there but the trick is finding it!

I'm a glutton for punishment so I'll be going back for more!

Douglas

Other people due to their evil actions on Earth might find themselves in the lowest levels of the Astral until they learn their lessons by example. Others might be religious, and get stuck for possibly hundreds of years in the lower part of the Astral known as the belief system territories. Such people either have to come to realise religion for the dogma it is before they can move on, or be rescued from their belief system, i.e religion.

Of course, the cycle of reincarnation takes millenia for most people until they can reach a level of perfection where reincarnation is no longer necessary. Very few have attained such exalted levels as yet. Most people will reincarnate from the Mental plane rather than the Astral - people pass to the level of the Mental plane with their Mental body (Spirit) to the corresponding level of vibration which would have been applicable in the Astral.
Adrian
-------------------------------------------------------

What do you mean by this?
Do you mean that, in order to re-incarnate, one must pass to the mental first? I take it at some point in the astral, say at f27 or 35 or whatever, after you are ready to move on, you will pass to the mental? I have heard of the process of the 'second death', I think that this must relate to what you describe.
From what I heard, you go through the 'second death' (where you shed your astral body) and pass into the mental plane which remains open to you for exactly as long as you can handle it, at which point you return to earth again (re-incarnate).

But are you sure it is not possible to re-encarnate from the astal? or at least pass on to the mental from a lower level?
say someone was stuck in the beleif system territories for ages, would it not be possible for them to re-incarnate from there?
(or at least shed their astal body so that they can re-incarnate from the mental level), perhaps that would be the only option if they were stuck in the astral somewhere.
Unless of course, once in the astral, the only escape is to advance through it.

Douglas