Messages

I like what everyone has to say on this subject, it's all very interesting and enlightening.  I like what Inguma said near the end...if one is brought up in a belief system that is positive, although you might feel it is restrictive, if the belief system promotes free thinking and "presonal revelation" as does the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, then individuals have the opportunity to grow and make their own decisions.  

I personally feel in a world like this, especially with individuals and organizations having as much influence as they do through media channels, etc.  I know that we must teach our children what we have found to be true...ideas and beliefs that help us to grow and know who we truly our..to understand our potential, etc.  If not they will be eaten alive by violence, pornography, etc.  Trust me when I say that I have been there and back.  I have seen the abyss and I have seen the light...and what I choose isn't dogma, it isn't ignorance...it's something that I KNOW and I have EXPERIENCED.  I hold nothing against others who don't follow the precepts by which I live, and I don't force my beliefs on anyone, that would be evil (I really expound on that).  

Trust me, it's tough, even within my own community, to be a truly open minded Christian.  It's tough in this world, for I feel unaccepted by most Christians who don't regard LDS as Christians because we are really far to the left in comparison to their largely dogmatic beliefs, and then of course amongst mystics and spiritualists I am frowned upon as if I were some niave child who bursted into a conversation which I should know nothing about.

Peace!

Grace by grace, principle by principle, we strive towards perfection.  

Il mio Maestro e' colui che ha vissuto la vita perfetta, il stesso che ha datto la sua vita per noi.

Adrian:  In regards to your question about how I will bring my children up.  First off, let me start off by analyzing what you said about your own children.  It sounds like they are taking the same path as you, and no doubt your example and what you believe, or don't believe, has had a huge impression upon them...it's inevitable.  

I will never force my children to believe anything, and what they choose to believe it up to them because they are seperate, individual beings...given to me to raise by God, but I attend church once a week and my children will too.  At church we testify of the things we have come to know, and at home we teach that there is a God, we are His children, He loves us and He wants us to return to Him.  We also teach that Jesus Christ is His son and our brother.  So, I guess the bottom line is that my children will be brought up under these beliefs, but at the age of eight is when they will have decide for themsleves.  In order to be baptized in the LDS church, a child must wait until the age of eight and then have an "interview" in which he or she is is asked if they want to be baptized.  

This might seem too young, and so of course they are going to say yes.  But this isn't always the case, if they are not sure or don't seem ready then they are encouraged to wait.  I don't think any other Christian churches do like wise.


Grace by grace, principle by principle, we strive towards perfection.  

Il mio maestro e' colui che ha vissuto la vita perfetta, il stesso che ha datto la sua vita per noi.

Where to start?  Well, let me say this first: I agree with you to a point.  I also believe that, when it's all said and done, it's the individual, and his/her experiences and desires that lead to exaltation (my word for the ultimate enlightenment, perfection) but I also believe that Christ is the Son of God...the only half mortal, half God that ever lived on the face of this planet.  This is where we differ because I don't think either of you believe this.  

Since I believe in the divinity of Christ, I also believe in the divinity of the organization that he designed while on the earth...namely an institution comprised of a prophet (which He was) and 12 Apostles.  I believe that after He ascended to the presence of the Father (which was after he ministered to those spirits in lower realms/planes and came back to show the Apostles that He was indeed still alive and he ate with them to prove He was restored to a physical body-although one very different than we have right now as mortals)- so after he ascended to the Father and after the Apostles were all killed, then things went wrong.  The truth and authority he had bestowed on the Apostles and other disciples was lost...there was an apostasy...and we are all familiar with what Christianity became, and still is for the most part.  

As Latter-Day Saints we believe Joseph Smith, at the age of fourteen, prayed to know what the truth was.  As he prayed he felt a deep, dark presence and he thought he was going to be destroyed...and just as he began to give up all hope suddenly he saw a pillar of light, beyond description, and everything around him became as if it were luminous and transparent, the whole forest itself seemed to vibrate and became gloriously bright, as if the nature of all the matter in the vicinity had somehow changed.  Then he saw two personages, bathed in a light like none he had ever seen, and soon they were just above him.  One spake saying, "This is my beloved Son, hear Him..."  And then the other spoke and told young Joseph not to join any church, for they all had wonderful things on their lips, but their hearts were far from God.

This simple experience, which many scorn, is, in my humble opinion, one of the greatest pieces of news ever to be told.  At the age of fourteen Joseph, in a very intolerant community, told his family and then others what had occured.  He was spat upon and ridiculed, but he never took back what he said happened that night.  He died defending what he had experienced.  

Smith taught many principles: that spirit is matter, but of a more subtle type.  He told people that what we are would blow them away, and it did.  He said, for instance, that one could leave his or her body and then leave that body and be a "point of light, capable of seeing in all directions."  Things like this led many to believe he was crazy.  More importantly he taught that all men and women are children of God, part of a divine source...and that "a man is saved only so fast as he gains wisdom" and "the glory of God is intelligence".  Such doctrine was deemed radical and the Saints were driven and murdered, until they sought refuge in the then swamps of Salt Lake City.

I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, only to explain where we are coming from.  We, as Christians, are not accepted in the Christian community.  Other Christians say "our" Jesus isn't their Jesus...which, in effect, is true...for they limit themselves to a point of view so narrow as to choke the truth and love and light out of what Christ really stands for.

whyprophets.com is a wonderful website to learn more about the LDS faith.

Anyway, peace!!!

Grace by grace, principle by principle, we strive towards perfection.  

Il mio maestro e' colui che ha vissuto la vita perfetta, il stesso che ha datto la sua vita per noi.

Well said Andy... I think everything in life that impedes us from reaching our potential, of from "doing" can be classified as an "excuse", including fear... once we realize something is an excuse then we can begin to eliminate it.

That's a simple yet profound way of looking at the "stumbling block" in our path. Thanks for your thoughts!
Dan

Bikku- thanks, but I must tell you that there are no "holy men" in my church.  I am a Latter-Day Saint, thus we have no paid clergy.  We do, of course, have leaders--but every worthy male recieves the priesthood.  Each week in church the members themselves, men and women, speak to the congregation...needless to say this fosters a true learning experience.

Adrian- it's interesting you bring up the name Elohim... that is the plural for "god" in Hebrew, thus GODS.  As a Latter-Day Saint, we don't believe there is one God, well we do...there is one God for us, or at least we say this to keep things simple, but really there are many Gods...in fact we believe that every person may become like God...that is why there was a council of Gods to decide about the organization of this world...

I think it's important to learn about what we as LDS believe because we are like NO other Christian faith...other Christian churches have only begun to accept the truth while, I believe, as a LDS Christian we accept all truth.



Grace by grace, principle by principle, we strive towards perfection.  

Il mio maestro e' colui che ha vissuto la vita perfetta, il stesso che ha datto la sua vita per noi.

The one sure-fire way: be powerful.  How do we do that?  By living so that we are full of love, light, knowledge, forgivness,etc.  Someone, in their post, said that deep down someone might not want to get rid of the demons/negs, whatever title you give them-- there is much truth to this statement.
Grace by grace, principle by principle, we strive towards perfection.  

Il mio maestro e' colui che ha vissuto la vita perfetta, il stesso che ha datto la sua vita per noi.

Whoa...I actually forgot about this post until now... and I obviosuly want to respond.

I feel as if "my method" has been ATTACKED, talk about confrontational!  

I never said I "attacked"other beings, in fact I feel the Spirit of the Lord is that of love and light...I think more along the lines of bringing love to "the scene" and if the being is not comfortable with love then it will leave.  

Personally I don't feel that any spirit is going to rip me limb from limb unless I allow it too...I know I can be damaged, even physically, from an "astral encounter", but I know better than to allow myself to be subject to an influence like this.

I still need to finish reading some of the responses, as my time is limited..
-Dan

Grace by grace, principle by principle, we strive towards perfection.  

Il mio maestro e' colui che ha vissuto la vita perfetta, il stesso che ha datto la sua vita per noi.

In the lucid dream topic I posted an experience that happened to me on the morning of Sept 11, before the attacks.  

I basically had a vision in which a bunch of middle eastern men began attacking the house I was in.  My perception of the dream state and the real time waking state became very blurred.  I kept sitting up on the couch because I heard banging on the doors and windows...

When I fell asleep I was suddenly met with the vision of men entering the house with the intent to hurt and destroy, I picked up a two by four piece of wood and yelled, "What is this, a jihad?!"  

Suffice to say I was very disturbed and finally said a prayer that the vibrations I kept feeling before I fell asleep and the visions would stop as I was beginning to feel a great deal of fear.  Approx. one hour later the attacks happened.  

Just before this experience  occured (I used to call it a dream, but I now prefer "vision") I had began meditating and praying more, thus increasing my positive energy levels.

Anyway, although your experience happened while you were awake, I believe that our experiences are related, at least in the sense that we "percieved" something on a different level before it actually occured.  

I have had a number of experiences like this but all have happened in that "in between state" wakefullness/dream

I wonder what Robert would say about this too...  Oberto??

Grace by grace, principle by principle, we strive towards perfection.  

Il mio maestro e' colui che ha vissuto la vita perfetta, il stesso che ha datto la sua vita per noi.

Thanks for your thoughts.  So, although you didn't know all the details/answers to my question , you do know that one can become the other...that's what I thought.  But I thought you could go from OBE to Lucid Dream, not the other way around.  So what you are saying is that during an OBE, one can find his or herself in the LD state?  Is being in the LD state the same thing as being in the "mental planes" or in other words the planes in which the mind (subconscious) is creating everything, including the enviornment, the "characters", etc.?

This is fascinating...anyone else know more?

I am going to re-read some of Bruce's writings, I am sure he addresses this point specifically.

Grace by grace, principle by principle, we strive towards perfection.  

Il mio maestro e' colui che era perfetto, il stesso che ha datto la sua vita per noi.

Thanks for your thoughts...and don't worry, I am not looking for the answer to this question, I just wanted to hear other peoples thoughts and beliefs.  I feel that I have found the answer, at least the answer for myself.

I am more interested to hear what answers to this big question others have found during OBExperiences and the like.

Grace by grace, principle by principle, we strive towards perfection.  

Il mio maestro e' colui che era perfetto, il stesso che ha datto la sua vita per noi.

Fasting is definetly an effective way to overcome the flesh--it helps the individual to have more self control.  It also proves, on many levels, that our spirit- our non-physical self- is more powerful and in control than our physical self.  

I have had many experiences, and heard of even more, when fasting has helped heal others or otherwise produced very positive results in both the seen and unseen world.

I personally try to fast at least once a month for 3 consecutive meals with a specific goal in mind.



Grace by grace, principle by principle, we strive towards perfection.  

Il mio maestro e' colui che e' perfetto.
e

I should clarify:  I have shared my beliefs many times without being ridiculed. . .I was talking more about online forums.  Usually, and this is sad, when people begin to open their eyes and gain knowledge- whether it be from reading, OBE, etc.- they begin to look down upon others.  Of course this isn't always the case, but because there is opposition in all things, the more one gains or the more advanced spiritually or mentally one becomes, he or she will face new challenges- whether they be ego related or in the sense that they can be decieved by their own knowledge.

Make it be known that the more you learn, the more pressure and opposition you face.  Someone out there is always watching...God is always watching and wants to help, but there are dark forces that want to hold you down and make you miserable just like they are.  Ok- I don't know how I got off on this tangent. . . anyway, does this make sense or do you guys think I am way off base?



Grace by grace, principle by principle, we strive towards perfection.  

Il mio maestro e' colui che e' perfetto.
e

First of all I want to say thanks.  I am ecstatic because this is the first time I have ever shared my beliefs, and the fact that I am an active, faithful member of the LDS church without being ridiculed.  I think this proves that you guys, as well as the rest of the members of this site, truth seekers.  

Andy, in response to your comment about how the church has changed, I beg to differ.  I don't think the church has really changed at all...when you speak of a "founder" I assume you are talking about Jospeh Smith.  I don't think he was the founder, nor do I believe there is a founder of the Church.  We believe he was a restorer.  Many church's have founders, but a restorer simply restores existing truths that men forgot because they allowed their minds to darken and their spirits to sleep (speaking figuratively, of course!)

I think OBE's are great and the phenomenon never ceases to amaze me, but to be honest these days I am focusing my energy on doing things for others in the "physical" plane because so many are so stuck here I fear for them.  If only we, who understand our true potential, could pull people from their tv's and open their eyes.

Like Mobius said, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.


In closing, I just want to say something to all (including myself):
I believe we must be careful not only to aim for the mark, and strive to attain it, but we must be careful not to miss the mark, or over shoot.  It's so dangerous to get caught up in looking beyond, for the way is simple and the path is straight.

Peace and love...


Grace by grace, principle by principle, we strive towards perfection.  

Il mio maestro e' colui che e' perfetto.
e

I am grateful for you positivity and open mindness.  About "stopping there..." I definetly haven't stopped.  I believe in many other books of "scripture" including books of modern revelation.  I also feel that when one is prompted to speak under the influence of the Holy Spirit, what comes forth from that individuals mouth IS scripture.
 
I believe that everyone must recieve their own revelation in this life in order to move forward.  This can come through prayer, service to their fellow men and women, by reading and of course through the desire to know and learn.

In regards to Christ, I don't have a shadow of doubt that He is the firstborn Son of God.  We are all sons and daughters of our Heavenly Father and Mother, but Christ was the most advanced spirit in the premortal existence.  Without His eternal sacrifice we would all forever be lost because we have fallen, just as God knew we would.  He sent us to this world to have physical bodies in order to know and be able to distinguish the good from the bad, the sweet from the bitter... or in other words to be able to progress.  It's all part of The Plan.  Christ and His mission was prepared before this world was organized (not created, but organized...matter, as we know, is eternal, just like our spirits...so it cannot be created nor destroyed.)  

One of the key differences between what I believe as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and other Christian belief systems is that God loves us so he wants us to become like him, perfect.  He wants us to reside where he resides.  He wants to exalt us and give us power and dominion in a celestial sphere.  He wants us to have all that he has.  To put it bluntly, God is a perfected man.  This doesn't mean He can't be everywhere at once, and it doesn't limit Him in anyway...we are all part of Him, etc.

Many might say this is blasphemous, or misinterpret this concept...so to make it clear, I don't mean that we will every be "better" than He is, but like Him.  God will forever be God and the more glory and power we gain, the more glorious and powerful He becomes.  God is light, God is love and the glory of God is intelligence...and that is what we are striving to obtain.  

I know what I am saying means nothing to one who has not faith, or looks every where except to the Holy Spirit for intelligence.  The bottom line is that I know these things because I have prayed to know and I have recieved my personal revelation.  The Holy Ghost, the Holy Spirit has revealed it to me and it is something I shall never deny.  The world has twisted Christianity and used it as a mask to hide behind in order do some of the darkest things imaginable, but in the end the light will shine forth and the Savior of mankind will return to earth.

As a side note, and pertaining to the topic of this forum, "Astral travel" is of course real and in simple, semi-scientific terms, it involves changing our vibrational "tune" (for lack of a better word) to move up or down the electro-magnetic light spectrum.  Of course there are also different dimensions, which adds to the complexity of this simplified explanation.  Low vibrational levels are where we find the sub-astral planes, or what many faiths call "hell")  or on the other hand by speeding up our vibrational tune and moving up the light spectrum we move into the higer planes.  It would make sense, therefore, to say that God resides in place beyond our ability to reach unless we meet certain criteria.  Where God resides the light is so incredibly brilliant and powerful (cosmic rays, etc.) that one would have to be like God who is perfect.  God would also have to allow us to be there, and we would have to feel comfortable.  One does not descend or ascend into planes, at least for prolonged periods of time, to planes in which he or she doesn't feel comfortable.  

This is why if we were to be "translated" (changed physically to be able to withstand the presence of God) we would want to be "hid under a mountain" as is written in the Bible.  We wouldn't feel worthy to be where He is.  But He wants us to be worthy of HIs presence, so He has endowed us with every potential necessary to perfect ourselves.  He has given us something so vital, something our brother Lucifer, who fell from heaven in a "battle" over this principle wanted to take from us, He gave us our FREE AGENCY.  The right to choose... and this is where we are at.  We are choosing, every day, every second...and what are we choosing?  That is something only God and ourselves knows.

I hope what I have said, even if one disagrees, will be respected for I respect everyone's beliefs.  We are all at different points in our progression, and although I know what I know, you know what you know.  We create our reality...so in the end we recieve what we desire.  I have shared what I desire...what is it that you desire?

If you have read this, thank you for reading.  I love this site for I have only seen respect and love being shown here.  I have not doubt that everyone who participates in these forums are truth seekers.  

Happy travel to all and may we all work together, despite our differences, to spread peace and love!

if you have further questons regarding the LDS faith, please email me or visit:

www.whyprophets.com
or the official LDS website:  www.lds.org
(the official website shares the most simple and fundemental principles of the Gospel, for the gate is straight and the way is narrow and many, like the Israelites who wouldn't look at the rod because they felt it was too simple of a task, look beyond the mark.

Pace e amore!


Grace by grace, principle by principle, we strive towards perfection.  

Il mio maestro e' colui che e' perfetto.
e

Edited by - daniel on 10 March 2002  09:04:48

It is one thing to believe, or have faith, that we are all eternal beings with "souls" and another thing entirely to KNOW and EXPERIENCE soul travel while still in the flesh.

Thanks Qui-Gon and Mobius, for having responded...I think it's fascinating to find out what others feel are the benefits of spirit travel...(it's hard to use any term to describe the amazing experience of leaving one's physical body).

In regards to your seemingly negative view of religion, at least as defined by our society, I have a few questions/comments for you.

I am a Christian and I am not "monotheistic", at least not in the sense I believe you intended to convey.  I don't go around telling people I have morals, unless of course they ask, but like you I strive each day to love and accept others, thus helping them and helping myself.

My religion propogates truth, and this brings upon us much scorn, ridicule and persecution at every corner.  We believe that, for example, the bible is a true book of scripture but has been misinterpreted, mistranslated, and even twisted puroposely by men who desired power and wealth above the the truth.  We believe that each individual not only can, but must, recieve personal revelation from God in order to progress in this life and in the life to come.  We believe in modern day prophets.  We believe that when one dies they will enter into a spirit world (astral planes, etc.) in which they will have the same appetites and atittudes they have now and will have to overcome these problems...so better now then later.  As they do this they will move up until they are in a "spirit paradise" and then they will help others who wander in lower planes to move up.  This spirit paradise isn't the end, however, they will move up...forever, not everyone will gain this eternal life, but only those wo so desire.  
Belief systems, ties to the flesh, etc. can all hold people back, we only move up as far as we feel comfortable.  Although we believe in judgement, the harshest judgement will come from yourself, not God.

We believe in Christ as the Savior and Lord.  He paved the way to move forward and up because he is the only one who was perfect in the flesh, and thus satisfied the demands of justice.  

I am not preaching, well, maybe I am... but I mostly want others to know that "religion" isn't always a crutch...I don't believe in religion, I believe in truth and every faith and creed has some truth, even if it is your own personal belief system.  We are all searching for truth and thus I try to never speak negatively about others beleif system or religion because obviously, for now, that is where they are at and most will move one someday to something that has more truth.  

For me the 3 main benefits of spirit travel are, )at least for beginners):
1. Simply knowing who you really are and knowing the reality of other dimensions.
2. Helping other beings, and being helped in these other planes.
3. Gaining personal revelation and coming to understand thyself as well as the nature of God.



Grace by grace, principle by principle, we strive for perfection.  

Il mio maestro e' il gand Iddio del Nuovo Testamento.

We definetly have help, and I mean that in every sense of the word.  One thing any enlightened person will tell you is that there are definetly other beings that love us and desire that we continue on the path of self-discovery and enlightenment.  

Do will all have spirit guides?  Yes.  Do we all see them, are they all the same?  These questions have many different answers and are as varied as our individual tastes and desires.  

I also believe what Pete (?I think it was him) who said that he believes that before we came to earth and were incarnated in these physcial shells, we chose how we would be helped.  We all have free agency, and that is KEY to our eternal progression, but how we are helped and by whom is something I don't know.  One thing is for sure, they exist and they love us and that's surely comforting to know.

Grace by grace, principle by principle, we strive for perfection.  

Il mio maestro e' il gand Iddio del Nuovo Testamento.

I definetly see the validity of the statement that light sleepers can have OBE's easier.  I think we all agree that being able to relax your body while keeping your mind alert is key to seperating the spirit body from the physical, thus if one can relax his or herself and still remain awake, or on the verge of wakefullness then it should be easier for them to leave the body.

In regards to low BP, I also feel this would somehow correlate, but I will need to do some research...

Grace by grace, principle by principle, we strive for perfection.  

Il mio maestro e' il gand Iddio del Nuovo Testamento.

Thanks for your thoughts.  I thought I'd recieve more replies than I did, but oh well, people have more important issues to deal with!  (:
   I actually have a pretty good idea of how these things work, talking about these dreams that "have come true".  I don't know if you have heard of the spiritual records (they are called the "Akashika" records- I KNOW I spelled that wrong...) Anyway, Robert Bruce talks about these in his treatsie on OBE's and says that every even ever recorded, including future events, is recorded, at least symbolically in these records.  When I had that metaphorical vision of middle eastern men attacking the house, I am sure I had somehow tapped into that record and thus saw what was about to take place hours before it happened.  It sounds crazy, but not to those who know this.
   It's funny, the other day while in class the professor passed out a handout...when I looked at it I had this overwhelming sense of Dejavu and I realized that I had seen this, or lived that moment, a few weeks ago in a dream state.  Just like you said, I couldn't remember exactly when I had the dream, but I had definetly seen all of this before.  It's a cool feeling, at least for me...
    I guess the best thing about all of this is the fact that I know that if I continue in my path to perfection by shedding any negative or fearful attitudes, and strive to show more love and follow the path of God, someday I will be able to come in control of these latent powers within, just like we all can.

Grace by grace, principle by principle, we strive for perfection.  

Il mio maestro e' il gand Iddio del Nuovo Testamento.