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Oh well. I guess the people who have seen me whilst OBE (who had no knowledge of my AP interests) on many occasions must be experiencing a shared hallucination with me. You have shown me the light. We were all dreaming. oh well.

Well I think the more we learn about reality the more it gets obvious that a deterministic view is wrong. There is no way to exactly measure things in the subatomic scale (http://www.thebigview.com/spacetime/uncertainty.html)
Not only that but things seem to be completly alien to ourselfs (nor Particle nor wave)
It is impossible to calculate the future cause it is not possible to measure the actual state of the universe. If I look at it very scientifically I must say if something is not measurable and not possible to calculate it is within the world of science not REAL. Therefore it is  a matter of believe. I believe the universe is not deterministic, Period.

On the other hand I must say if could even imagine a deterministic world and a free will coexisting: If we could step out of time it is imaginable that we decided (using free will) what Life we wanne live including all the decions we wanna make. Then we stepped into time and now we go thru it.

In the quantum world the biggest factor against a deterministic universe was loss of data in such places as black holes. The reason relativity works on the macro universe (even though it doesn't on the micro) is that very large systems of uncertainty average themselves out. A crude analogy is in casinos, the only way to beat the house is to have a few very high stake bets, because over time they will win.
Have you read into blackhole entropy? The aspect of universe which seemed to rule out determinism (the loss of data into a blackhole) looks like it could have been resolved. It is thought now that blackholes get smaller and smaller until they disappear and space-time is reverted to its original form. If looked at as a p-brane, the black hole will store all data which fell into it, so this information is not lost. This is very important in predicting the wave function of every partical. This also puts determinism back onto the map.

Just because we don't understand enough of the action of QM at our current state, hasn't stopped us putting it to use, and is not a reason to assume we will never understand it Another note, QM is a system of describing the micro-universe. The terms and theory used is not how things actually are. But us picturing things that way help us to work thing out better. A very good example of this is imaginary time, which is a construct used extensively in science. We create this new time form to help us build a model. It doesn't cause the time form to actually exist. A lot of people have taken these ideas to extreme in the QM world, such as moons disappearing,and reality instantly constructing itself on our observation and then reverting back to wavefronts etc.

Regarding entanglement. It's considered now that faster than light communication is not needed. For example:
A radioactive particle decays and sends out two particles in opposite directions and with opposite spins. If an observer measures the spin of one particle he can say with certainty what the spin of what the other particle is even if it is on the other side of the universe. This is where Einstein became confused. Observing the spin of one particle does not instantly change the spin of the other, as the observers could no more choose the spin of the observed particle (S. Hawkins.)
I'm not sure how this implies free will is an illusion though. If the deterministic view of the universe was proved (with methods such as p-brane theory of black holes) then it could suggest that free will is an illusion - although I'm not sure how the determinism of particles could transcribe to seemingly complex humans/consciousness. It is something that concerns me though.

In my view, If the deterministic view of the universe was proved that would suck the very essence of Life out of the world. A predeterminate Universe would be a dead meaningless Universe. I refuse to believe that.

I agree completely. It would more than suck the essence of life out of the universe, it would automatism us. Even our horror reactions at such a thing would not be 'ours,' we would not be 'ours.' But. Just because something is scary and looks terrible, it doesn't mean we should ignore it if evidence starts to point towards it. On a quest for truth we can't ignore the truths we don't like
I just find it hard to define consciousness in relation to the cause and effect reality it exists within. How can an independent thought be created? What is the mechanism which causes it to be? The problem is that once a choice is made the choice cannot be changed. Each action, reaction, though, and emotion etc in our life is a forever one of a kind event. So even our progress through time seems to suggest a deterministic view of the universe. How can you 'know' your last action was your own. It goes deeper than that though, back to the watcher and further still. I guess it's a fundamental question to sentient awareness itself. Is it really just an illusion?

I think most things are scary when you think of them The potential oblivion of death (I've experienced amazing things which suggest death isn't the end, but you can't ultimately discount any possibility) is just as scary as the thought of eternal life! Eternity is a very very long time...

AP practice, chakra cleansing, meditation etc all alter consciousness . If such states have been practiced over time then in my personal experience they have longer lasting effects on 'baseline' (c1) consciousness.
How many hours sleep have you been getting with your sleep-ins and how many hours sleep do you usually get? I ask because if I stay in bed and get a few hours extra sleep, I experience a lot of SP, AP, LD episodes which just happen with no intention on my part.
I usually think (not necessarily with the surface mind) all the time on matters of reality, mind, self etc and such thoughts carry with it a slight change of consciousness/focus away from physical reality. If I feel things are getting too much, I stop all such thoughts, all meditation, AP, energy work etc practice. I stop reading into this area completely. This is part of what I consider grounding myself. The other part is to jump feet first into normal life. Surround yourself with people, go to work/college. Focus on these matters more than 'spiritual' matters etc. Just pull the illusion of current human society high over your head like a blanket until you start feeling more yourself. If in time your curiosity picks up again, then start practicing and looking into these things.

Regarding entanglement. It's considered now that faster than light communication is not needed. For example:
A radioactive particle decays and sends out two particles in opposite directions and with opposite spins. If an observer measures the spin of one particle he can say with certainty what the spin of what the other particle is even if it is on the other side of the universe. This is where Einstein became confused. Observing the spin of one particle does not instantly change the spin of the other, as the observers could no more choose the spin of the observed particle (S. Hawkins.)
I'm not sure how this implies free will is an illusion though. If the deterministic view of the universe was proved (with methods such as p-brane theory of black holes) then it could suggest that free will is an illusion - although I'm not sure how the determinism of particles could transcribe to seemingly complex humans/consciousness. It is something that concerns me though.

Titles are nothing in and of themselves, they are a simple communication tool to describe a bond between people. Your post seems confused in regards to words and actions. What is the difference between living as a exclusive couple and saying 'we are boyfriend and girlfriend'? By definition a relationship infringes on our personal freedom, but usually the consequences of the relationship make us decide such a loss of freedom is worth it - or not, in the case of breakups.

Yeah, my bad, I meant Feynman's multiple history idea But on recollection, it doesn't actually have any bearing on what I was trying to say! I guess the only way of ever recreating the past would be based upon wave function calculations, and so then only an approximation of the past at best (if we ever get to a strange where such staggering feats are feasible!)
This poses an interesting question. Can one ever truly visit the past in astral form? If so, how and in what state is this 'past' stored? (If we consider it to be a memory of the past.) I could gauge some assumptions which are more metaphysical than scientific but they don't really answer the question in a means we could ever test.

N.b. before anyone suggests it, I know that light reaches out to us from the past over tremendous distances (some of it will never reach us) but I am concerned with the past of our immediate locale (Earth.)

Hmm I don't really give it much thought. I usually start off by pushing through with my hands first and then pushing the rest of my body through (with my hands in front of me.) I always feel some form or resistance at first through which I push through.

Our experience of body, external reality and its boundaries are recreated in the mind. What you perceive as 'outside yourself' is actually you looking at a creation of your mind based on some form of stimulus (truly external? The interpretation of interference patterns which form reality?) which is interpreted into the various senses. So we exist within our minds always. In this context might not the body be but a prison based upon the belief itself in the body? Or does the body hold some greater reality outside of our senses which we interpret as the form we currently inhabit? I feel the same as the poster who says we are in paradise right now. Just because we are currently focused on this locale of consciousness (physical) doesn't means we cant move awareness to other areas including that 'paradise' at will. Perhaps our believed certainty of knowledge in this reality and its rules is what is keeping us from doing that right now. Meditation, energy work, AP etc perhaps leads to an erosion of the 'mundane' physical reality belief system (over time) until we might finally escape it and truly experience this greater knowledge/reality?

Concerning travelling astrally into the past. Unless one can make some form of change which alters ones present physical reality (although I cant see how such a thing could be empirically recorded, only believed in) isn't it an equally possibility that one is experiencing recordings/memories of the past?
It has been suggested that quantum gravity exhibits holography. Due to the nature of holograms, isn't it at least a possibility that not only the universes current state is recorded, but every previous state too? (Many worlds theory.) I know I am making assumptions here, but it's an idea I just came up with and nothing more. But then again. If the many worlds theory holds true (which it tends to be now) which past would one be projecting into?
Projection into the future is projection into a possible future, and so could be considered fantasy bounded by ones knowledge of current world/universe events and organisation.

Have you ever heard of the hypnogogic state? It's literally the border between sleep and wakefulness. Most nights as I am going to sleep I hear aural hallucinations (noises, usually a voice calling my name etc) and also start seeing visual images/scenarios - which if I become too involved in I fall into sleep itself.
Many people who have never heard of OBEs or even sleep paralysis have had scary experiences where they've seen people in their room, or heard scary noises in their house on the border of sleep or waking (hynopompic state.)
How long have you been attempting to OBE? And what methods have you been using/practicing?
I've discovered that intentionally altering my consciousness over time has actually changed (and continues to change) my perception of reality as the years have progressed. It's not a case of no longer conceptually seeing the world as I used to, it actually looks, feels and emotionally resonates in a different fashion. It seems familiarity with subtle states of consciousness makes us more aware of the smaller nuance's of consciousness more of the time. So if a person has been practicing such techniques for a while, even if they don't intentionally attempt to make things happen, things can still happen. Grounding oneself in 'mundane' reality lessens these effects - eventually making them (strange uncalled for events) far and few between. If any of this makes sence?

One time in a trance state (as if I were in focus 10 ready to split)... I heard MOST FUNKY house track that I've never heard before.

Another time in a semi-lucid dream (the kind where you're just inches away from realizing it) I heard a really nice DnB tune.

Other times other tunes, or people conversing either with myself or others.

Have you ever experienced hypnogogic/hypnopompic aural hallucinations? Usually as I decend into sleep (and ocassionaly when waking) I hear voices and sometimes music. This was very different from the music I heard as stated in the original post, and I was also wide awake

I've heard some great music in dream states - I that I had the knowledge to record it in some form on waking.

I can't really add to the great information put across by Catmeow and Telos. But I think Leyla is referencing entanglement when she talks of particles communicating across large distances (sorry if this has already been said.)
Just because we are made up of particles doesn't mean we inherit (on a consciousness level) potential properties of them.

Have you tried the 'rolling out' method? When the vibrations have passed/are fading feel yourself roll out on to the floor. This sensation can be quite realistic (I sometimes worry that I have actually fallen out of bed.)
Something I have noticed is that I sometimes have to get a certain distance away from my bed/body to actually 'solidify' the experience. It's like I'm only feeling faintly at first (usually with no vision) and that I have to fight against a force to get further away. But once I get a certain distance away my vision comes to me and everything comes into focus.

How much sleep do you get per night, and do you feel rested? My best results come at times when I get too much sleep. I usually average 5-6 hours a night and although if I practice daily I do get OBE results, due to tiredness they are usually infrequent and of poor quality. Around 4 years back I went through a stage of nightly practice. I would go to bed at 10 pm (my average bedtime is 2-6 am so this is very early for me) feeling very awake. I would then proceed to first do physical relaxation exercises, then a form of body meditation, and then use triggers to put me into an equivalent F10 state (mind awake body asleep.) If I'm truthful my incident of OBE during these practice sessions were low (although I did experience a lot of other strange occurrences,) BUT, I started to experience a lot of spontaneous OBEs and a very high frequency of sleep paralysis on awakening which I would use to project.
Getting back to my 'too much sleep' comment. If I have a few hours more sleep than I am used to (around 8-9 instead of 5-6) I find I can easily enter LDs, or if I awaken I can easily bring about the vibrational state, leading to OBEs. Have you tried getting more sleep than you normally have?

Sleep paralysis can have many strange effects, including what you described. I have had many paralysis episodes which have been very uncomfortable, and even though such states hold no fear for me I have, on occasion, felt a stiring of fear.
During periods where I meditated/practiced trance states/energy work/hemi-sync regularly I would have a very high incident of SP and Ap related experiences which would come when least expected and they where definately not tried for.

When practicing entering trance states daily, doing energy work and meditation, I find that I can enter trance states at the drop of a hat. Some are light, but if my mind is occupied, or in discussion it can become quite pronounced. So I guess these states are possible in the midst of noise and activity.
When I find myself entering trance states so easily, it usually tells me to lay off and 'ground' myself for a while.

Having not read the thread in full yet... I'm curious if you have heard of the work carried out by Rick Strassman MD concerning diemethyltryptamine (DMT) release during traumatic experiences - focusing on the NDE experience? DMT is a natural neurotransmitter (which has a much greater affinity than serotonin to certain receptor sites if I remember correctly) and is one of the most potent psychedelics known to science (also being Schedule I in the US!)
In his experiments Strassman administered varying doses of DMT to subjects whose consequent experiences bared striking resemblance to OBEs. Lower doses also produced 'body-loads' which from description, sounded exactly like the classic 'vibrations.'
Perhaps a factor which can differentiate NDEs from normal OBEs is this (potential) release of DMT during such a traumatic event which then progresses/evolves the experience?
To clarify a point: the body is very efficient at cleaning up DMT from the blood stream/brain and has natural enzymes which destroy it. Traumatic experiences seem to override the bodies natural 'clean up' system - which is why people don't constantly feel the effects of this chemical.

I'm also curious as to how other people who are familiar with the OBE state (and with Strassmans and similar work) integrate the effects of DMT (and their seeming instant OBE experience generation) into their perception of the OBE state?
I'd be very curious to see results of blood/DMT levels before and immediately after an OBE and NDE. The fact that DMT is a drug means its effects have a certain duration, which seems contradictory to the OBE state which can be terminated at will. A possible explanation could be the deep relaxation/trance state would make the body more perceptive to very low levels of DMT in the blood stream, which would easily be overridden by the full force of baseline (C1) sensory input.

Strassmans research was recounted in the book "DMT: The spirit molecule," if anyone is interested.

Ok, well, I'd say, MisterJingo, that you experience a similiar thing, right? We have plenty of energy and we 'generate it ourselves'. Now we even have means to distribute it in a positive way. Isn't it .... (please fill in the word)?

Have you learned to see auras? I noticed that I have a much stronger aura, more energy and greater healing ability after doing Tibetan Five.

Kind regards

Matyas

Thanks for the reply and the links, I will check them out
My main interest has always been OBEs, I felt a pulling in that direction which was too deep for me to ignore. I was never interested in other areas such as healing, or mediums. But as my experience with the OBE state grew my interest turned to other areas such as these. I haven't really looked into seeing auras, but I can feel/sense an energy or interconnectedness of all things. It helps to keep this current life in perspective It is an area I will read more deeply into though.

I'm hoping you meant carbon dioxide. If you're exhaling a lot of carbon monoxide you should see a doctor...

lol you are right. I think it would be too late for even a doctor if I started exhaling carbon monoxide. It was a typo  

Anyway, neither carbon dioxide or monoxide would help heal any creatures. Oxygen would. If you're looking for a scientifically (ala non-NEW) explanation for it, I'm guessing it would have to be either the heat from your breath if it was cold, the physical movement from your breath may have pushed it in a position to fly, or perhaps just fear of you eating it encouraged it to get off. None of these seem too sensible.

The only thing that feeds on carbon dioxide is plantlife. As for carbon monoxide... it's poison... I don't think anything feeds on it (correct me if I'm wrong).

I wasn't looking for a scientific explanation as such, but I figure it's best to cover all options rather than jumping to conclusions. If nothing else, it helps one to stay grounded.
I felt like something more did happen, but I've never tried any form of healing before that night as so I guess I wanted opinions of those more versed in this art

I've heard music a couple times, usually stringed orchestra instruments like violins and basses on the edge of sleep but it's always been 'inside' my head.

What kind of instruments did you hear?

I couldn't distinguish any instruments. It was like a symphony of pure sounds. Perhaps even pure voices. It was so on the edge of hearing as barely perceivable, yet once focused upon, intricate detail and beauty could be found in it. I guess the closest thing to the sounds in the music would be when people run their wet finger around an half filled wine glass to produce a pure tone - but even more then that though.

The best way to deal with heavy sleep paralysis symptoms is to use it to project. SP is an excellent state to project from using deep breathing. I give a method I use to project using SP pretty much evey morning here:

http://www.saltcube.com/?t=paralysis

Thanks for the reply. I've always used paralysis to project, usually when I find myself in an SP state I'd simply have to 'rock' from side to side or up and down, this would increase the vibrational state until I could roll out onto the floor. But since the heavier symptoms started occurring this fear reaction kicks in and stops this process. I'll have to be a bit more vigilant and alter my projection technique I guess

Hi all,

I've never really practiced healing, but last year I experienced something which I havent yet been able to explain. I've posted about it to a reiki group and I recieved no answers so I thought I would try here.

My original post was as follows:

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Hi all,
I'm not sure if this is the correct group, but I recently experienced something concerning energy and healing - so I figured I'd try here I've never really looked into Reiki so please excuse my ignorance. Although I have never looked into this area I have been aware of subtle energies for many years. My main area of interest is OBEs (and surrounding areas) and so I have meditated and have been developing my energy body for years. Regardless of what people think of the OBE state, it does put one in very close contact with energies and the energy body. Over the past year I have been using new techniques which are more of a tactile visualisation than 'visual.' They were developed by Robert Bruce and I have found them very potent for developing and maintaining the primary and secondary energy systems.
Well now that I've covered my background, I'll detail the experience which bought me here. At the time I had been doing daily trance work, energy work and meditation and so even when 'baseline' I still had a strong sensation of energy movement throughout my body. I was watching TV late at night and I became aware of movement on the floor. There was a moth fluttering about on it back, banging against things before it eventually stopped moving and lay on its back. It seemed dead or near death.
I'm not sure why I did this, I guess in part due to the strong energetic feelings I was still experiencing, before I went to bed I lay down on the floor near the body of the moth and started to raise my energy. My hands were about one foot on either side of the moth, there was no physical or close contact. While I raised my energy I started to visualise myself inhaling a brilliant white light, it went down into my lungs and travelled up each arm and out through my palms. With each exhale I breathed out a dark black used up energy.
The energy I visualised coming from my palms in a very tight line, sort of like a laser and it went into the body of the moth. At first I visualised a sphere of light around it, but as I focused more and got in-tune with what I was doing I centred the energy to the shape of the moths body. So it seemed like the moth was a brilliant white outline. Nothing happened but I kept this up, soon I was very focused and in a partial trance state I'd say (I had visual static, bright lights moving around the periphery of my vision etc) I then noticed the moths legs started to twitch. No other movement but the twitching. Now it seemed like an effort, I felt an excitation through my chest and arms and I had to focus to maintain the visualisation, it felt like there was a slight resistance to what I was doing. I'm not sure why but I started 'sending love' to the moth, saying I loved it and wished it to heal. I wanted it to live. This was sort of a mantra going through my mind, projected outwards towards the moth.
Soon the twitching in the moth increased and then it suddenly just burst into the air in a single movement and flew off at ceiling height. I'm not actually sure where it went, I looked for it afterwards but couldn't find it.
So what actually happened here? Even though I do practice OBEs I am quite 'scientific' in outlook, so I'm wondering if this was all coincidence? Perhaps the carbon dioxide from my breath somehow revived the moth? Or did I have some part to play in healing it? I'd like to hear others views on what happened.

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Any comments would be appreciated

Have you ever tried projecting using this "pressure". It sounds like somethin i read on the jonasridgeway website. You should imagine the pressure is pushing your astral body out of your physical though the bed. I think he calls it the gravity release method or something of that variety

This is something I haven't tried. I'll take a look at this guys website and find out more about it. Thanks!

On two occasions in my life I've had the same auditory hallucination that I cant really explain. On both occasions I was involved in spiritual practices at the time ie I'd been a lot more involved in astral projection or lucid dreaming. Its hard to describe what I heard but it was not inside my head, it was external. It was the most beautiful music I have ever heard. It was quiet but I could hear it all perfectly. The first time it was dark and I was in my sisters room reading. It seemed to come from the sky. It was the most angelic/ethereal sound you could wish to hear. A few years later, I was in my sisters room when I heard it again. Exactly the same music. I have no idea what it is, but it was beautiful

Has anyone heard anything similar, or perhaps has any idea what this music was?