Messages

DH... I am not a Christian man but I had to listen to a priest once..

Sounds painful!   

and he gave a pretty good message: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself
Most Christians do this: "Thou shalt love thy neighbour" and forget the last part.
So here is the thing, if you love others unconditionally and just do that its not what Jesus intended. You need some self-centerdness to love yourself. If you don't you might do anything others tell you to do (I dont mean crimes or so, just like getting up and bringing them food, lending them money,things like that).... this does not make you feel good... it makes you feel used, hence you do not love yourself.
Life is always about balance between two forces.... hence balance this too. If you just do one of these two things you will fail so to say.

Yes, you are right on.  There has to be balance. 

Unless you have a good self-image -- that you are a child of God -- that all of the good of the Universe lives in you by God's Spirit -- then you have nothing to offer others.  You have to take care of yourself spiritually, emotionally, physically, etc. 

But I think that's different than a fundamental self-centeredness that says, "Screw everyone else, I will do what I want."  This is what the NT would equate with "demonic".  Jesus talked about a kind of love  -- AGAPE in the NT Greek -- that has to do with choosing to set the self aside at certain moments to care for someone else.  This is a concept that is also found in other world religions, such as Hinduism, Buddhism, and in Greek philosophy. 

Only one who is truly secure in herself (and her place in God) can give herself away.  You can't out give God.  Ironically, whatever you give freely comes back in some way.  This is a biblical principle (Luke 6:37, 2 Corinthians 9).  People that are basically self-centered never learn that.  Their focus is usually on their immediate gratification, and what comes back to them is an echo of their greed, lust, violence or whatever.  The Bible has its own version of Karma!

Yes, balance.   DH

[servant]

You know, I think the comfort of so-called heaven often motivates people to be Christian - and certain Christian's consider themselves so, on the basis of this belief; nonetheless, they often sin daily.  In my opinion such people are not Christian.

Yes, the reward of heaven motivates people to call themselves "Christian".  But so many either ignore or are ignorant of what the New Testament writers say about what it means to be a "Christian" (which if one wants to get literal, means "little Christ").  I don't see a lot of "little Christs" running around!

If you read what the NT says about Jesus, and quotes him as saying, anyone who wants to be his disciple or follower must first and foremost be a servant -- one who loves and cares for others unconditionally.  One is expected to repent of sin (selfcenteredness) and follow him on the path of self-giving love.

The theology of Paul shapes a lot of Christian doctrine.  But a lot of "Christians" don't get or ignore what he said. If you read what he says about what it means to be a "Christian" --  it has to do with accepting Jesus as the atonement for sin, committing to Jesus as the Lord (being obedient to his teachings), receiving the Holy Spirit (God's personal presence in Jewish thinking), and allowing the Spirit to transform the believer into the image of Christ. 

Paul had a lot of personal hangups, and they come out his letters.  And one can disagree with his theory of atonement or concept of God; but his teaching is pretty clear for those who want to be called "Christians".  In Paul's thinking there no such thing as a "white washed Christian" -- one who claims salvation in Jesus but lives like the devil!  Romans 8 and Galatians 5 make that pretty clear:  One who claims the name of "Christian" is one who is on a pathway to become like Jesus.  A "saved" person lives like a "saved" person.

Pardon my rant, but I come from a Christian background, and I get sick and tired of "Christians" who are anything but Christ-like: judgmental, cold-hearted, violent, greedy, etc., etc., etc.

By the way, if you read the gospels, you'll see that Jesus had compassion for "sinners"  -- the outcasts and screw ups.  His only threats and harsh words were reserved for the self-righteous religious people,as in Matthew 23.

DH

My password suddenly wouldn't work.  No big deal I guess -- I got a new one.  But I just wondered if this was a part of the hacker problem.

Jesus says if your eye causes you to sin, rip it out; if your hand causes you to sin, whack it off -- but I haven't seen any one-eyed, one-handed literalists that I know of.   

Some get literal only when it's convenient for their value system.  The same verses that say stone homosexuals also say to stone adulterers and children who dis their parents -- but we don't hear anything about that.

DH

Welcome, and don't let English hold you back.

DH

muchas gracias.   

people should read Revelations... the whole book is about visions, dreams, prophecy.. 

Ezekiel is another interesting one.  That boy seems to be "flying" all over the place!

Hey all,
Notice that by using the term "church of Christianity" I am intentionally distinguishing between "Christianity" and "the church that has been developed with the same name". While the "church of Christianity" cannot exist without the New Testament, the New Testament texts in no way "need the church" to be spiritually powerful for those who can study and learn from the writers' thoughts in their own 1st century context.

Unfortunately most of the various Christian denominational churches seem content to focus on power and control -- their own!  Their interpretations of the Bible keep their faithful in check and in the dark.  One can certainly benefit by reading other ancient documents that were left out of the Bible.  Some are wacky and make a fun read (like the infancy Gospel of Thomas that tries to fill in the gaps of Jesus' childhood with stories like the child Jesus zapping people that tinkle him off!)-- others give some food for thought, like 4 Esdras of the OT Apocrypha, in which the author speaks of the Spirit of God that is in ALL people (not just the "saved" as in Paul and other NT writers.  Some of the non-canonical writers show some interesting parallels with Eastern thought.

DH

Sounds like controlled lucid dreaming -- and pretty good at that!   

Ingles por favor

Roxie,

I've projected many times over the years and never met a neg.  But I don't believe in them either.
I've always assumed there is a parallel between what you believe and what you experience.  I think ignoring them is a good idea.  Go for it and enjoy!

DH

And for other's to say it's self indulgence then people who are more greedy than others are satinists, i don't think so.
To label emotion's and actions with word's is our mainstay of communication, when one apply's this to entity's in our imagination it's no wonder we breakdown on explanation.

Self-indulgence does not make one a satanist.  Self-indulgence is merely one of the main ingredients in the make up of many I have known, or have been aware of, who have called themselves "satanists" (and have, by the way, all admitted that they were sold out on "looking out for number one").

Welcome Gary!

This is a great forum to learn and to share.  Don't be shy here!  Let us know more about what you experience.   

DH

Darren,

I used pot and acid (and other hallucinogens) frequently for several years.  I had some interesting experiences, but they were nothing compared to what I learned to do naturally through OBE and other psychic phenomena.  Frankly, I'm glad to be reasonably OK after it all.  Some of my good buds didn't make it out of the 1970's, and it took me a year to clear my head and receive back my short-term memory after I stopped using.

<a href="http://plugin.smileycentral.com/http%253A%252F%252Fwww.smileycentral.com%252F%253Fpartner%253DZSzeb008%255FZCxdm793MOUS%2526i%253D36%252F36%255F11%255F23%2526feat%253Dprof/page.html" target="_blank"><img border="0" src="http://plugin.smileycentral.com/http%253A%252F%252Fimgfarm%252Ecom%252Fimages%252Fnocache%252Ftr%252Ffw%252Fsmiley%252Fsocial%252Egif%253Fi%253D36%252F36_11_23/image.gif"></a>

Please don't feel any judgment here.  Just my two cents worth.  Save your brain cells and mind power for more positive things.

DH

Thanks Tvos!  Your thorough work is a helpful tool.

"The unknown leads to Fear. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering"

So true. 

Some of what people "know" leads to fear too.  I have a nephew who is convinced that anything "paranormal" comes directly from Satan.  Even dreams are off limits. Even though God may speak, so may the devil, so Katy bar the door!     He and most of the people in his church are extremely paranoid about what they think the satanic realm is conspiring to do to them.  There's no way you can convince them any differently.

[Job:33:14]

When I read the whole OT and NT I kept a log of the passages about dreams, trance, obe, near death reported in the bible. Yes, meditation can be practiced many ways, in prayer, inward, silence, listening, trance work or just cleaning the mind. Here's another good example how "God communicates to us through dreams" and is a legitimate christian tool.

Job:33:14
14 For God does speaknow one way, now another  though man may not perceive it.
15 In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falls on men
as they slumber in their beds,

16 he may speak in their ears  and terrify them with warnings,
17 to turn man from wrongdoing and keep him from pride,

18 to preserve his soul from the pit, his life from perishing by the sword. [c]

Good one!  People seem shocked to find that the Bible is loaded with this kind of stuff.  Especially some Christians!  The great mystic saints of the past have been living examples the "paranormal" suggested in the Bible:  Theresa, John of the Cross, Eckhart etc.

DH

I can't remember where it is, if it is NT or OT, or even who said it, but if you have a good concordance, (I think it MAY have been Paul) there is a passage in which one of the men says that before he had a certain vision, he felt he was taken either out of the top of his head or out his toe...something like that. Don't quote me on that until you find it--I really can't remember where it is.

Paul's quote about his vision or OBE is found in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4:

2Co 12:1 This boasting is all so foolish, but let me go on. Let me tell about the visions and revelations I received from the Lord.
2Co 12:2 I 1 was caught up into the third heaven fourteen years ago.
2Co 12:3 Whether my body was there or just my spirit, I don't know; only God knows.
2Co 12:4 But I do know that I was caught up into paradise and heard things so astounding that they cannot be told.

What's interesting is that there was a time mentioned in Acts 14:19 when Paul was attacked and stoned by an angry mob.  He either died or was near death when some fellow Christians prayed for him and restored him:

Ac 14:19 Now some Jews arrived from Antioch and Iconium and turned the crowds into a murderous mob. They stoned Paul and dragged him out of the city, apparently dead.
Ac 14:20 But as the believers stood around him, he got up and went back into the city. The next day he left with Barnabas for Derbe.

I've often wondered if the two events are related.  Was Paul telling the Corinthians about a near death experience?  Even if he wasn't, I still believe the other visions he and other biblical people had were related to OBE and meditation.  Jesus emphasized "praying in secret" (Matthew 6:6), which I firmly believed was meditation for him.  Sometimes he would even pray all night (Luke 6:12).  This to me suggests more listening than talking!

Onwards and inwards!   DH

Well my dad is a christian and really believes in god and when I started to study OBE and Im afaird to tell him and on June 15 Im going to get bapties (sorry dont know if that is now you spell it.) So let me get to the point if you are a christian can you still be able to AP? Is it like against my religon? Please I someone to answer this for me?!?

Sorrow,
There are hundreds of Christian groups with various and often conflicting beliefs.  Some think OBE is of the devil and others think it's a fascinating part of God's wonderful Universe.  I don't know where your dad falls as far a beliefs go.  OBE may be against his "religion", but you'll have to decide if it's against yours.

Personally, I was raised in a mainline Christian home, and later was part of an evangelical/charismatic group.  I don't accept most of the church doctrines I accepted when I was younger, but I still have no problem with calling myself a Christian when it comes to what Jesus taught -- that love and serving others are at the heart of the universe.  And I think that OBE is awesome and worth pursuing.

Blessings to you as you sort through all of this.  I would say be patient with your dad if he thinks this OBE stuff is crazy.  If you still live at home you probably won't want to start a war over this.  You can still learn and develop your own spirituality by quietly tuning in to forums such as this.

The main question for you to ponder is not "What does dad think?" -- but "What do I believe about this wonderful world I live in"?

Andonitxo,

I don't think anyone here is knocking being gay or bi or straight.  I'm certainly not.  I have a gay son and two straight daughters.

It's easy to get tunnel vision when we are defending a cause, especially when we are being persecuted for who we are or what we believe.  I've discovered that from personal experience.  I would just say don't be trapped in the tunnel:  be open minded.  The Universe is much bigger than what our little minds can conceive. 

There are many gay shamans, but I've also met some straight ones, too.  Be happy with who you are, let others do the same, and don't give any energy to those who would knock you down.

With a gay subject that settling down never happens, because a man-man, woman-woman sexual intercourse doesn't involve a "closed" circuit, or, at least, the energy flows in a different way.
That's why, and always in Ed's words, shamans have been always gay, because they're able to manage energy more easily. In the same way, all priests and religious people that have had sex are not able to drive the energy of the community in a, for example, mass, because their circuits can't hold so much energy.

It's an interesting article, but I have known a number of shamans over the years who weren't gay.  They were just as effective as those who were.

Welcome dkjx!

Personally, I'd just say that for most of us, there is no quick way to consciously project.  It usually takes a  lot of concentration and practice of techniques.  There are many files and threads on projection in these forums with helpful information that you can read, and I invite you to check them out.

Projection seems to be about what you expect to happen before you try.  If you expect trouble, like entities in the astral who will hassle you, you will likely find them.  If you expect positive things, that will be your experience.  I have projected many times, with the positive attitude, and have never experienced demonic attacks and other bad things that some people talk about.  William Buhlman is my mentor in OBE.  I would offer his books as good resources.

http://amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw/102-6465950-4914508?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=buhlman&Go.x=7&Go.y=7

That's just my 2 cents worth.  Blessings to you on your journey.   

DH

Welcome back Mustardseed!

I'm interested in hearing about your spiritual progress.  These risky endeavors are usually revealing.  I once did a hike through the Bolivian Andres mt. range that was a major spiritual development for me.

Glad you are back safe and sound.  We had intercessors praying for you.

DH

[Church of Satan types]

We can speak of an I or ego in conventional terms because we are limited by language. It is not the words themselves that are important just the meaning. You could call the true self, the universal mind I, or ego if you want, you could also call the personality I or ego if you want, but you wouldn't be refering to the same thing. It all depends on the meaning not the word.

Semantics always seems to get in the way!

Interesting link to read:
http://www.praetrans.com/en/ptf.html

Thanks for the link.  Interesting idea.  It resonates with me, too.  It would seem to make more sense to find fulfillment in the personality evolving into something more positive, like unconditional love, rather than being killed off.

For me, satanism, and other hedonistic philosophies, are a movement in the wrong direction.  They demonstrate attitudes that do need to be killed off (selfishness, narcissism) before there can be any spiritual progress. 

As far as satanism itself goes, I worked with a government agency a few years ago that was looking into some cattle mutilations and links to "satanic" groups in the area.  What we discovered were three kinds of "satanists" in our locale:  Church of Satan types (people connected with LaVey's atheistic mockery of Christianity; no belief in a real devil or god; primarily a plunge into self-indulgence); self-styled satanists (people who made up their own "religion"; some believed in a real devil, others didn't); generational satanists (full-fledged devil worship with human sacrifices; beliefs passed on in the generations of family).  Most "satanists" were the self-styled types. They tended to be in their twenties, low income, involved heavily with drugs, and in and out of county jail or state prison.  The generational types were nearly impossible to find because they had to be secretive to survive; but they seemed to be professional people in the area. 

The people who were investigating these groups didn't take the first two groups seriously as a threat to the community.  LaVey, after all, did parade around in a goofy looking robe like a buffoon.  The self-styled seemed more interested in getting high or trying to conjure up demons (which the authorities wrote off as a part of their drug-crazed hallucinations).  On the other hand, I found them all a little dangerous.  Anyone who basically worships the self and who is always "looking out for number one" will not have your best interest at heart when you get in his way to self-indulgence.

Actually Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was a Muslim.
I (Muhammad SAW) have been commanded only to worship the Lord of this city (Makkah), Him Who has sanctified it and His is everything(in the universe). And I am commanded to be from among the Muslims (those who submit to Allah in Islam). [Surah An-Naml 27:91]

Is this a sudden reincarnation of Jeehad  or another Muslim brother with tunnel vision?   

I too appreciate the recent posts of Mez and Mindfreak.  They resonate with me because I feel the Inspiration of all religions is the Source that unites us all; and the Source is Unconditional Love that calls us beyond ourselves to help others discover the Source within themselves.  This does not compute with the fundamentalists of Christianity and Islam (and other groups) for whom unconditional love makes no sense.

DH

and certainly we do, but thank you for going through the effort of presenting it to us... all this stuff fits so well into life, its mindblowing...

Ditto.  DH