Messages

[The Road to Reality : A Complete Guide to the Laws of the Universe]

You say in the other thread about this:

No, June 27th.
But when it comes I'll have to ask for Roger Penrose's new book, ambitiously named The Road to Reality : A Complete Guide to the Laws of the Universe.

The funny thing is, the reviews are saying the book lives up to its name. Especially since it makes people mathematically literate in the theories.

Well that's interesting isn't it?  I think you and Roger Penrose Wouldn't get on at all!
He like me believes that your brain is a quantum computer, and everything else I've been going about.

So that's very interesting. If you such a skeptic why are you a fan of Roger Penrose?  Respected Scientist, but also believer in all the quantum tomfoolery, you don't believe in.

Please read the paper:

Orchestrated Objective Reduction of Quantum Coherence in Brain Microtubules: The "Orch OR" Model for Consciousness

http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/penrose-hameroff/orchOR.html

So far as I'm concerned case closed - not even penrose is a skeptic you are.

I believe everything that article to be true, you don't and it's accepted by someone you respect. I also believe everything penrose had written about the quantum, and it matches pefectly to Buddhism, and those leaps of faith.

QED

Case Closed. Your a skeptic, and not even a true scientist,  you don't even view the world like scientist like penrose. So it's a pointless discussion penrose gets  it, I get it, and everyone else in the forum does.  There is no room for skeptics here - it's the wrong place.

I kind of view the NDE and OBE two different phenomenons. Thier similar in that the both have consciousness outside the phsyical body, but NDE may also include the tunnel, life review, meeting of loved ones and possiblity of meeting the supreme being or higher self (whichever you choose to call it). Has anyone here experienced similar traits to that of an NDE while APing?

There seems to be a lot of the in the
book  "adventures of the body" byWilliam Buhlman !

[The Road to Reality : A Complete Guide to the Laws of the Universe]

it is?

No, June 27th.

But when it comes I'll have to ask for Roger Penrose's new book, ambitiously named The Road to Reality : A Complete Guide to the Laws of the Universe.

The funny thing is, the reviews are saying the book lives up to its name. Especially since it makes people mathematically literate in the theories.

Thanks for the replies, everyone! Don't hold anything back (except, you know, profanities and such).

Well that's interesting isn't it?  I think you and Roger Penrose Wouldn't get on at all!
He like me believes that your brain is a quantum computer, and everything else I've been going about.

So that's very interesting. If you such a skeptic why are you a fan of Roger Penrose?  Respected Scientist, but also believer in all the quantum tomfoolery, you don't believe in.

Please read the paper:

Orchestrated Objective Reduction of Quantum Coherence in Brain Microtubules: The "Orch OR" Model for Consciousness

http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/penrose-hameroff/orchOR.html

So far as I'm concerned case closed - not even penrose is a skeptic you are.

QED.   You need to take leaps of faith, like penrose has.

Case Closed.

I hope I do not seem demanding. I just don't see the evidence, and I was wondering if that was because I didn't understand it. I offered my criticism to pinpoint the areas in which I'm having trouble. And you're telling me my area of trouble is faith? You might as well point me to a priest, minister, or rabbi, or someone who knows nothing of quantum physics...

Well, that is the whole point of the flatland book.  They don't get it,
they have trouble with it, and what they need is faith in the 3rd dimension.
Hence, my term in describing you as FlatLander is actually more accurate than you percieve.  You also like a flatlander, cannot accept that it takes a leap of faith to imagine objects likes spheres intersecting your world plane.  And yes, you would be better off talking to a buddhist, that's the leap you still haven't taken.

Just because they make equations work doesn't mean that that's how world is. BillionNamesofGod, think of it like a story. You could write a story, and I would tell you where there are plot oversights, and offer you some extra characters ("extra dimensions") that would make the story work. Does that mean your story explains the world?

yes.  It does that's the point.  Everett adding extra dimensions solved all the problems. it's the same story again and again - extra dimensions we can never percieve in our daily lives. If the extra dimensions solves everything, it just takes a leap of faith in that story, and go beyond.
The problem is you don't get analogies, and un-able to extrapolate "what if" thinking.

Maybe you should read something other than this essay, or something that doesn't reverberate the same message? Or maybe you should even do some experiments of your own? I'd love to hear about them.

Yes, see book reference above. (Relativity Visualised)

I really wish you could see it - it's real simple.  Imagine yourself in Einstiens shoes, he could clearly in his mind what amazing implications it meant, he had no evidence.

You say Einstien had proof? Oh really? did he personally look for it? no. It came later, by other people, he had complete faith.  So you must understand time, which are aren't. You don't seem to grasp the flow of time, and history.  At the specific time he published there was no evidence of any kind. Remember for this to work, you must fix your self at that time-frame in the past, but also bear in mind later experience Einstien didn't know about that proved his theory. You have amazing extra dimension that you know Einstien is correct, and he will be proven correct, but at that time, there is zero evidence.

What you need to do, being a skeptic you cannot doubt Einstien.
You need to fully grasp (see book reference above) it.

Imagine yourself as Einstien the exact moment he published his paper - there was no evidence at that point. Imagine what he imagined.

How can someone imagine all this? How is this possible.  This is what you need to understand.

You see - it all starts with imagination, in your mind - this is were you take the leap of faith - I've taken it, you haven't.

I've done the above experiment, and I can tell, you it's truly amazing to imagine those things, and tuly believe you are correct.

That feeling is in that essay.

You recommended a lot of books to me. I'll definitely keep them on my list, although the "Tao of Physics" is quite famous, and I think you would strengthen your own skills to read the literature available that criticizes it. There is so much of it, and I have read so little.

I do seek out this information.
The most important thing you can study is scientific heretics


Taking of books you want to study:

Relativity Visualized by  Lewis Carroll.

At some point you will truly understand just what a giant conceptual leap Einstien made, and being a skeptic, you should not ever doubt what such a leap he made - without any evidence.  His theories were only recently proved, don't you think it's odd no-one ever doubted his theories when they were so way out there, and had no proof?

Think back and study scientific heracy, and you will start to see amazing, truly amazing things.  Things so emotional and deep, you can't believe it.
You learn that one person is correct and the entire world does not believe him. Can you imagine how that feels? Now he was only recently forgiven by the vatican.  But he was right, and the rest of the world was wrong.

Every scientific discovery begins this way, no-one believes them, not even fellow scientists.  I think for you it's the most valuable thing you will ever study being a skeptic, because it's historical fact.
I get quite sad when I read the Einstien who took the most giant leaps, never accepted the quantum, and scientists moved on making amazing discoveries, because god does, indeed play dice.

yadda yadda yadda, we are myopic visisioned twits who cannot see beyound our eyes, stay within the fence yadda yadda yawn.

That's right, just for the rest of people, who didn't quite get what that meant, what he actually meant was :

Interesting article but it's firmly planted in skeptical 2D Flatland.

We cannot percieve these multi-dimensions, so we observe lot's of weird goings on. So skeptics, just say, look it's weird s**t!

But absolutely no way would a skeptic link this weird s**t with spiritual or mystical, that's beyond there thinking. If there is no evidence, it's just weird s**t they can't explain, they don't believe in mystical s**t anyway. They'd rather just leave it as "wow look at this weird s**t!"

But they also don't grasp they can never ever ever explain this weird s**t without thinking beyond they can see and prove. Which they won't or can't a skeptic will never step further without evidence, but this time they won't get any - not ever.

It's all neatly explained if you take on board the multi-dimensions.
But it's too whacky for them, it's too way out. Way to way out, infinite parallel dimensions? what's that wierd s**t? why the hell are these scientists who were my friends talking about such whacky s**t? What happened to then? They turned fruitcake?

So the skeptics enter an infinite loop, they can't escape.

And the icing on the cake? The real icing on the cake?

Well they can't stand it that cosmologists suddendly take "scientific" leaps of faith which are *** IDENTICAL *** to leaps of faith taken by buddhists, who didn't need to build particle accelerators, and fiddle with quantum mechanical mathematics, which took them a life time being a student to learn, and really really rather annoyingly but just adding some dimensions, all their infinites disappear and the maths works perfectly, by infinite dimensions, when all this time they didn't do it because it didn't look nice or make sense to them. While it was starting them in the face, they didn't do it, because we live in 3D x,y,z and forward time why the hell would you want more dimensions that that? Boy we have trouble explaining our own bloody universe without creating a infinite amount of them for christs sake!!!

It just winds them up so much that some buddhist sat on a tree doing some freaky inner meditation come ups with the *** IDENTICAL *** conclusion, centuries ago, just by chilling out, and not doing lot's of hard maths at all, and spending lot's of years getting fancy titles. It almost make sa mockery of the scientific process.  And if they got that right, what if they are right about everthing else? No way! It does not compute.  It really annoys them that our universe is perfectly tuned for human life, so now they have to take onboard infinite universes just to get rid of pesky god. But now we have to believe in an infinute number of worlds, and jesus that's just as bad as saying there is a god.  Infact it's bloody easier to say there is a god, least he'd be charge one pesky universe.

Boy this winds up the skeptics up so end, so they go on and on and try to remove all spirutual connection to cosmology and quantum physics.

But they don't notice a small bunch of cosmologists who've reached some kind if nirvana without meditation but by mathematics, talking the same language of ancient buddhists.   They don't like it one bit. Not one bit.  So they start calling god a superintelligence, but still it doesn't work for them. All of a sudden their near scientific world is full of wierd s**t and they are forced to resort to thinking like a load of Buddhists in the east.  They also don't like these new small Elite bunch of smart arse Quantum Cosmologists taking maths, and coming up with the same kind of take as ancient buddhists.  Heck, they have lots of maths and qualifications to boot, so a bit harder to dismiss.. but aha!! they have no proof, so these bunch of smart arse cosmologists who actually know it all, that's them put in their place, and us skeptics rule once again... (drumroll and lot's of skeptics clapping)

So they are extremely annoyed that they don't get it, so write lot's of articles trying to wind people up. I mean these  buddists aren't scientists, what the hell do they know anyway?

Well it doesn't matter....  The rest of us just get on with it.  
Just that cosmologists are awestruck at the conceptual leaps by buddhists, only a few of them like Einstien before them have taken such conceptual seemingly religious leaps, the rest of them like most scientists want to figure out how they can take the credit, without getting the buddhists involved, as my god, they were there first for sure, and plenty of dated documentation in proof they got there first.

While us observers like me just can't stop laughing - look it doesn't matter who get's the credit.

I don't know about you, but I'd rather be stuck up a tree chilling out meditating exploring the inner self; rather than hanging out with a bunch of bearded small minded scientists getting extremely confused because they only experience 3D x,y,z and forward time, and decide to build bigger and bigger accelerators, because they can do a bigger bang and hopefully get more evidence, but just end up finding even more weird s**t and getting themselves into a twist and even more confused, not agreeing with each other, and generally not having a good time. Not Fun.

I'd rather be sat next to Everest, have a nice cup of tea, chilling out going deeper - as we already know you won't  find any evidence anyway, so why not chill instead.

On the contrary, I don't think you fully grasp what you're saying. You have (very ignorantly, imo) assumed that the astral dimensions and the dimensions proposed in new theories of quantum physics are the same - without any evidence.

Sorry you are confused I never actually said that!

For the sake of getting confused with what "dimensions" means in terms of Mathematical sense in Quantum Physics, and  other dimensions experienced in Astral Projection - I think it's a pointless discussion.

The discussion is you need evidence, and me and most people don't.

Einstien didn't need the evidence to come up with his theories, or cosmologists (who are pure scientists) takes leaps of faith without any evidence, and physics people like everett who formulate the multi-dimentional view purely in numbers - don't need any evidence. They cannot comprehend these other dimensions but has additional numbers on paper, that neatly solve all their problems - No quantum physics person can truly translate those constructs into their real life components, just a Flatlander cannot see the 3rd dimension, no-matter what he does, the evidence will never appear in his 2D plane, there's no point in looking for it.  But the 2D flatlander can *imagine* a third dimension by a leap of faith because it makes sense, and explains the weird going on.  But that's all it is a leap of faith, and figures on a piece of paper.
Nothing like him astral projection and "experiencing" this mysterious 3d dimension, and relating his experiences. Ones inner experience and one is maths on a piece of paper, and a leap of faith.  

The point is religion/spirtually also needs a leap of faith. So both scientists and religious people are doing the same thing - taking leaps of faith without any evidence.

The problem I see it, is that you are demanding evidence from the rest of us getting most upset about it, when you don't understand why there will never be any evidence, here is this physical world of 3D x,y,z, and forward time you percieve.

So you've just got to accept it, no point in arguing with me over it, I don't have it - I can't help you.  But at least I'm not wasting my time wresling with trying to fit mathematical dimensions constructs tha make equations work on paper which are just approximations to what's experienced in your inner self.

I really wish you could see it - it's real simple.  Imagine yourself in Einstiens shoes, he could clearly in his mind what amazing implications it meant, he had no evidence.   This same thing is happening all the the time in cosmology and quantum mechanics. Giant leaps are taken without any evidence whatsoever.  But we have no reason or evidence to doubt them.

Read the essay again.. You see it now?

Interesting point.

I suppose someone you knew about AP, probably wouldn't enter the white tunnel but the golden one..



seriously though, I suppose it's not big news if a APer has a NDE.
It's obviously a big deal of you have  NDE if you've never AP.

Interesting point, I've never read about a NDE from someone who was a experienced APer. So good observation.

I'm not confused about the idea of quantum multi-dimensionality as I am confused about what it has to do with spirituality.

Again, you want to read the article. You enter "spirtual realms" by entering other dimensions etc...

You don't need an essay to tell you that. Isn't it common sense that we live in a universe with more than one dimension?

Oh really? If you believe that then you've got it, you can see where the rest of the essay comes from, the first step is to say we live is a multi-dimension universe, and every object here, is actually a multi-dimentional object, and keep going, and you end up with the profound insights of the essay.

How do you know that Astral Projection has anything to do with quantum mechanics?

Because when you experience it, you know you are entering a parallel dimension.  To explain all the weird stuff in quantum mechanics you must have multiple dimensions for anything to make sense.

I am open to the possibility that there is a connection, but maybe it's presumptuous to say so without demonstrable evidence? If you don't mind me using your words against you - I think you're the one thinking like a Flatlander.

Sorry, you missed the point again, you won't find any "demonstrable evidence" so don't waste your effort in finding it. The only proof you will find will be in your inner self.  Scientists who study quantum physics / cosmology can't either, but they can take leaps of faith that leads them to the same conclustions as Buddists centuries ago.
Seems like scientists are going the long way about it, so you see the connection with quantum physics and say buddhists? They come up with the same conclusions! They both take leaps of faith. Hence the link.

I strongly suggest you read the book "The Tao of Physics" before you spend any more time thinking about it.

If that's true, then I must be either very dumb, or you must be very smart, because I don't know how you can make that step in reasoning. Where is the bridge? Or is there no bridge? Is it a leap of faith?

(See Above)

Well, you see smart people are actually dumb, yes, the qualifications
is what actually makes you dumb.

I suggest you read the books by edward de bono like "lateral thinking" to develop your skills here.  You'll notice people who make scientific leaps
actually don't rely on their formal "smart" qualifications.

Einstien is a perfect example.  If you really think about it deeply,
all he had was his imagination - no computers or technology, and by being the first person to have the leap of faith to imagine in his mind, travelling along the speed of light what the consequences were.

So the connnection? Everything starts from your inner spiritual self.  You see it?

He also said, "Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning."

Ah exactly.  Never stop questioning.  That means if you don't have
the evidence, it doesn't mean it's true. He doesn't say you need evidence to believe anything.  He came up with amazing scientific revolutions by his imagination alone.  There was no proof.  Yet everyone else, could not prove or disprove him - there was no evidence.
Now of course, much later, his theories are "proven" correct, but not when they were announced.  This is purely from a leap of faith and his imagination alone, and to question.  He had no evidence, why do you need it before you can believe?

Interesting. Why do you believe in it, if there's no scientific evidence for it? Is it because you feel better accepting things through faith?

Because I've experienced it. I can leave the rest to the forum.

"Astral projection" seems like a very broad concept. Like JoWo, I have had some profound mystical experiences. However, unlike JoWo, I haven't concluded that spiritual reality is intimately entwined with QM. In actuality, I think QM limits our understanding of spirituality (like a kind of "poor man's materialism") and I think there are some others who are afraid of admitting it.

I really won't have a bad word said against Joachim Wolf like Einstien he's taken a real leap of faith logically and come up with amazing conclusions - just like Einstien.  If you experieced leaving your body, it makes even more sense.  AP is a very clear concept.

I suggest you read Adventures of the body by  William Buhlman - this is by someone like yourself (a skeptic) who started to OBE, and it has a lot of quantum physics in it.

If that's true, then I must be either very dumb, or you must be very smart, because I don't know how you can make that step in reasoning. Where is the bridge? Or is there no bridge? Is it a leap of faith?

You've hit the nail on the head.  

It is a leap of faith.  It's really as simple as that.  end.

------------------

If you take the leap, open our mind, and once you experience AP, your mind expands and you are fully aware of the true multi-dimensional nature of the universe. The problem is in your case, you are still stuck in Flat Land and not prepared to take the leap of faith without some evidence, which explained above will never exist.  Without it you will experience nothing, but  the dimensions x,y,z, and the forward arrow of time.  So I think that about wraps it up.  You haven't taken the leap in conceptual thinking so the rest of the conversation is a complete waste of my time and your time. You'll never grasp anything anyone says, you need to expand your mind first.  (see below)

nice avatar, I think ours nicely work well together.

I don't know, perhaps you should read the quantum-metaphysics essay.

You just need to read all this stuff to motivate you. Sounds like you are just scared.

More than a year ago, I read ?Revolution in Common Sense,? (RCS) a paper about the spiritual implications of quantum mechanics (QM). I found it an enjoyable read. I especially liked its integral approach of combining different theories into one proposal. It was like a nice bowl of candy. Unfortunately, after I finished reading (and rereading) the essay, I was unable to apply it to my life, especially over the long term. I therefore submit this criticism not as a skeptic, but as an experimenter who has found these claims delusive in practice, and possibly intellectually dishonest.


<snip>

I've just read this article/essay for the first time, only yesterday.
...and I can honestly say I'm truly amazed - it has changed my life.
It's pieced together all the interesting things I've been reading about all my life.

I think you completely and utterly misunderstood the whole point.  I mean not just a little bit, but completely and utterly.

You are basically a Flatlander.  Yes  - a Flatlander.
You are sitting on a 2D plane and you mind cannot comprehend it. If you didn't get in that article, I'm really disappointed.

You've clearly made your mind up, so there's no point in waffling on.
But instead of nit-picking, and trying to make it all make sense for you; like all scientists you can't see the wood for the trees.


The essay very convincingly just says one simple thing - we do indeed live is a Multi-Dimensional Universe. Even scientists, don't like it, but the maths fits and solves all the problems - even superstring needs 11/12 or more dimensions.
So it's real simple :

We live in a multi-dimension universe, not to accept that because you can't see it, doesn't mean we don't.  Everything points to it, that's the point he is saying, and indeed science backs this up quite nicely now. Without it everything in quantum mechanics doesn't make sense and can never make sense.


So how can you experience it?  Well Astral Projection. You can travel anywhere in the universe you won't experience it.

The only way to truely experience it, is actually enter other dimensions, and you can only do this with your inner self.

So spiritualism is actually completely entwined with Quantum Physics.

The problem is you are still in flat land mode thinking. You want to see, but you'll never see or imagine the 3rd dimension as a flatlander -it's just a concept. You'll never prove it, the evidence will never be there. So you are flatlander who's just said, there is no evidence therefore it's not real, and all this weird stuff, is just weird stuff.

On the other hand, us believers realise it can all be explained if you embrace other dimensions.

You think the world is the centre of the universe because you can't prove that it isn't. Even scientists have no proof of why light behaves as a particle if observed that way, and behaves like waves.  Two different people have nobel prizes illustrating this and they are in complete contradiction to each other.  So, scientists even move on, in light of observations, and no evidence.  You can't even move on like a scientist to the next level. You are still stuck in needed proof, when there never will be any for you.

Even Einstien acknowledged that imagination is more important than knowledge.  Infact I'm baffled that you even believe in Astral Projection, there is certainly no scientific evidence for it.

All I can say I've certainly found what I've been look for,
this ties up neatly everything I've been thinking......!

http://www.quantum-metaphysics.com/

The article is:

Revolution in Common Sense

or  

Quantum Metaphysics

http://www.quantum-metaphysics.com/essay.htm

Can't wait to read the book !!!!!!!!

So M-Theory is connected to everything, and Astral Projection is the only way we can start seeing these different viewpoints/worlds for our self.

I actually really grasp the double slit experiment now, and how it proves the existence of parallel worlds.  I never read got it before, but here it makes complete sense to me -so much for all those physics books, they just show what happens and say "wow, that's bloody weird isn't it".

So now, to me They are actually the same.  Spiritually is totally entwined into Quantum Physics.  

I urge everyone to read this essay, it's like a life time of reading most books refferred to in this references, all suddenly make sense.


WOW !!

Thank you Joachim E. Wolf....

I think the best way to think about this whole difference between Scientific Theory (which I agree M-Theory is totally insane as a scientific venture, makes me angry) and AP is to do this:
1. M-Theory and other Quantum Poop: Physical Study
2. Astral Projection/OBE: Spiritual and Mental Experience

The big words that differentiate both of these are study and experience. It would be nice to think that in our disorganized world that they are the exact same thing, but due to the sheer amount of potential available, it's unlikely. I'm not saying it isn't true, I'm just saying properly cross-referencing even would be hard to do. Even if they were very similar, that still proves nothing!

An example of this is: all of science, technology, human logic, social constructs can be potentially looked up on as the equation; x+x=x+1. Let's make [x=1] here, making the equation [1]+[1]=[1]+1. However if you said [x=2], the equation would then be [2]+[2]=[2]+1. The point is, no matter what you know, there is good chance that your equation is very flawed except for one circumstance. Some equations are less flawed than others, but it would be hard to know exactly how flawed it is for certain. How flawed is your equation?

I've just started reading (about 50% through) :

Adventures Beyond the Body
By  William Buhlman

Simply because it's the only book that I've read about Astral Projection,
and M-Theory, and Quantum Mechanics, and all the scientific stuff.
Really truly amazing, it's basically what I've always thought. Astral Projection is kind of the like the missing link.
It's a shame the people in physics don't believe in anything, without physical evidence - it seriously rock their world if people in physics started to astral project!  Imagine if Einstien had a OBE/AP?

still not sure how you switch, do you just demand a 2nd body?

hmm, how long is it you guys have smoked? because i have been an avid smoker for years..i am 18 mind you.  But yea i have had nothing but good experiences while smoking and projecting.  It really loosens up my energy and gets it flowing much better.  You guys must have had some schwag or something.  There is a big difference between bad and good quality marijuana.  The problem is you are aren't used to your energy being so free inside your body...there are no adverse affects to smoking and projecting or trying to, it just takes some getting used to.

18? !!!
So what projection method are you getting success with while on marijuana?

erm... so where are you getting this "good quality" stuff I wonder!

I checked out the site, and something caught my eye about how religion is brainwashing...and I could really agree with that, so I read on...

and suddenly here are a bunch of new rules, tests, and elitist attitudes, sounds like a metaphysical Christianity to me...hmmm..

I enjoy this site so much because for the most part nobody is TELLING anyone what to think or do...that is the only real kind of slavery that I can think of.

Well said Nostic, and you too Psan. heh.

Interesting I wonder if you grow spiritually, maybe the concept of religion is just taken for what it is, just one explanation of why we are here.
Perhaps Astral Projection proves there is more to it than that, so no matter what religion you are or follow, AP shows that when you AP we are all the same? Hmmm... I not sure If I getting this across effectively!

I think it's in his second book "Far Journeys'. The thing of 'leaving' the second body mostly came up due to his frustration with staying in the RTZ, rather than being able to go elsewhere.

There is an important lesson there in that the second body imposes various limitatations on your experience. Quite simply, there is the issue of travel, which includes time and space considerations, in moving from one place to another. As soon as you find yourself in a second body, these constructs of belief start to become highly active, and there will be the expectations of flying (or whatever mode of transportation) as well as duration to go from one place to another.

Without a second body on the other hand, such primary beliefs have less sway on the movement of your consciousness, and you will generally be able to move around more easily once you know how switch attention from one place to another, or change your focus so to speak. Hence, the prelude to phasing.

Trying to leave the second body in an undefined more mental form is possible I'm sure, but it is likely also fairly unique to Monroe. It's all good to replicate the experiences of others, but never get stuck in them for too long. Monroe started out with RTZ experiences, and I do understand him quite well since I'm following the same pattern. So I have tried several times to replicate it without much success, until I realized more fully what he was doing.

What he did IMO is revert to same state as that occurs before exiting the physical body. In that very moment before exiting with a second body there is a moment in time where you are merely awareness free from physical constraints - and in some sense you could all this a "mental body". I don't like the term 'mental body' much, since it's heavily contaminated by second-hand conceptions and translations (and there is no 'body' there), but in this context I don't mind using it as long as it's clear I'm only talking about awareness basically free from any physical constraints and conceptions.

Not surprisingly, this pre-exit stage is generally the base consciousess from which phasing occurs. So you could say Monroe went backwards by not so much seperating again from the second body, but reverting back to a form where there would be more freedom of movement without phsyical based belief constraints.

In either case, this is the only conceptualization that has worked for me practically speaking. In that more formless state you can shift to any "location" desired, and if the environment suits it - you will have a second body there (which is "phasing"). Alternatively, you can follow a mental concept or emotion in your mind, which depending on its content can carry you to a realm that is formless and more a state of mind of mind rather than a perceptual environment (aka 'mental plane' beyond 'astral'). It's hard to put these environments into words, and my experience with them limited to say the least, but they are much richer than anything astral I have ever encountered.

This is very interesting I've never read heard of this before until now.
I've just started to read William Buhlmans' book Adventures Beyond the body, and he very quickly  (within the first 40 pages)  about projecting into astral body, after already projecting from his real body - and like you say, "double" projecting appears to given even more freedom, and allow real crazy stuff, you couldn't do with a "Normal" astral projection into the Real Time Zone...!

So amazing, still haven't projected and it appears that to experience Robert Monroe type experiences I have to "double" project !!!

Interesting I don't quite understand how William Buhlman or you do this double projection, it's not entirely clear, great if you could elaborate more!

The more far-out experiences of Monroe occured with giving up the second body. That is, he left the second body in a third undefined form.
It was a prelude to his later phasing.

Please explain!!!! I've never heard of this!!

You mean that Astral Projection wasn't already difficult enough, you can do it again, while you are already in a Astral Projection, into another body?

wow!  tell me more!

I haven't read Robert Monroe for a while, but it was one of the real
early books I read in the 80s.

My question is how come Robert Monroe seem to have real fantastic experiences and meet people, goto crazy astral planes, they seem to do real interesting mind-blowing stuff, and learn so many new things.

But, most experiences I've read aren't RB like, more like being in the real time zone, and pretty much no mind expanding.
Well, not as mind expanding as RB experiences.

Which raises the question, what leads to these crazy experiences?
Is there something going on here we don't know about?  Was RB approaching things a different way?  I've never read much about how to have the crazy travels.  Most of what I've read of recent times is how to project (Robert Bruce) and real-time or lower level astral stuff.  It always struck me RM seems to have a lot more crazy events in his AP experiences.

I just hope when I get to AP, I could have mind expanding revelationary type experiences RB had.

OK, I'm reading this, to simplify it for my feeble mind:


IF ENTER  WHITE THEN

    | Will be Reincarnated, some kind of trick

IF ENTER GOLD LIGHT THEN
   
   |  ?


So, who controls  WHITE LIGHT+explanation ?
So, who controls  GOLD LIGHT+explaintion?

How do you enter WHITE LIGHT/GOLD LIGHT in AP?  I thought
this is if you were actually "Dead" ?

Can someone simplify?

Here- you can watch all three hours online for yourself.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/program.html

I've just purchased this DVD, from the USA, so look forward to watching it, watching it online is a pain, and the graphics are just so lovely. I was about to download the quicktime and burn a DVD, but the cost of the DVD is real cheap!

This is a very interesting topic, and I'm still getting my head around it, for many years now.

It's clear that in Astral Projection, and Physics Dimensions, are describing different things.
THe question on my mind, in terms of Astral Projection, is it possible (how?) to travel to parallel dimentions?  In Physics, different parallel worlds are just that, there is no communication between them, if my understanding is correct.

So how can you AP, in one parallel Universe, and enter another?

Ohh sorry, i kinda forgot to look where i posted, but what exaclty do you mean, do you want me to show it to you? Its much better if you make your own, so that your subconciuos actually knows what it means.

Well, I've never done a sigil, I hardly even understand how to create such a thing, I think it's something that cuts straight to your subconcious, bypassing your concious?

Here is a very cool resource for Remote Viewing I found:

http://www.firedocs.com/remoteviewing/

I agree not much innovation, but

Half Life  2 was great, I really felt  I was there!

I had some real whacky dreams!

Hey, has anyone else had 3D game related dreams?