Messages

b_smith,

I am 40 years old and have been a Christian since I was a kid.  When I was your age (17) my views were probably quite similar to yours.  However, in the intervening 23 years I've prayed continually for understanding and read a ton of information on religious/spiritual/metaphysical subjects.  I am still a Christian, in that I am a follower of what Jesus taught, however my views have evolved substantially during that time.

Most Christians accept Jesus, believe they're going to heaven and for the rest of their lives their understanding of "truth" changes very little despite listening to a gazillion sermons and attending myriad mind-numbing Bible studies.  They learn to accept the status quo, to stay in line and follow the rules.  In short, they are unwittingly controlled by the fear of "losing one's salvation" and going to hell - not to mention bringing upon one's self the scorn or disapproval of Christian friends.  Unfortunately, this path leads to stagnation.  

The Bible calls for us to seek God with all of our mind and strength and soul.  The New Testament message advocates that we undergo a radical inner-transformation.  Quite frankly I don't see most Christians fulfilling these dictates.  Instead (and at 17 you probably haven't seen enough of this yet) I see most Christians settle down into a life dedicated to spiritual mediocrity and the safety of maintaining the status quo.  This occurs because they are afraid of going to hell and also because years of spiritual stagnation gives them no reason to devote their energy to it anymore.

I encourage you, as you progress in your life, to constantly seek "truth".  Read anything and everything and pray continually to the Holy Spirit to lead you into all truth.  I believe if you do this you will ultimatly come to understand Christ's message in a much broader way.

What does this all have to do with satan deceiving people in the astral realm?  It would take me too long to write it all down but in a nutshell each person must take charge of their own spiritual search and growth.  If they choose to do that by exploring astral projection then I have more respect for them then those middle-aged zombies who sit on their butts in church, half-asleep secretly wishing the sermon was over so they could get on with their day.  The Bible says, "Seek and you shall find. Knock and the door will be opened unto you."  Many, many spiritual seekers around the world are not Christians, but I believe that the will indeed find and God will indeed open the door to them.  If God appears to them in a slightly different form or gives them (what appears to be) a slightly different understanding that's between them and God.  Our first business as followers of Christ is to desperately seek that radical internal transformation that the Bible speaks of.

It is not up to me to tell you what to believe, but I would like to encourage you to continue seeking truth.  If you believe that you already know all the truth that you need to know than you are sadly mistaken - our physical life's here are a continual spiritual journey and we need to always continue growing in our knowlege and searching.

I encourage you to procure and read a copy of a book called, "Putting on the Mind of Christ" by Jim Marion.  I hesitate to recommend it because I'm guessing that at age 17 and with your current beliefs it will probably be a very tough read.  I'm guessing you will write it off as heresy without finishing it.  However, it is written by a devout Christian and it describes a broader view of Christ's message that is radical and fills most of those nagging loopholes in standard Christian doctrine (the one's we gradually blind ourselves to over time because they are so glaring).  Feel free to regard it as heresy (there's much about it that I don't buy in to) but I encourage you to read it as a thought experiment, - even if you have to tell yourself you're doing it to educate yourself regarding heritics' tactics.  Then keep the book around and reread it every few years.  

And above all, pray, pray, pray continually for understanding and then be open to where the Holy Spirit leads you.  Don't just believe whatever you're told in church - let the Holy Spirit lead you.

Good luck.  And by the way, Paul speaks of an out-of-body experience in 2 Corinthians and it's very likely that the profits including John were practitioners of astral projection.  And also, remember that God loves you and if you trust in him the Holy Spirit will keep you from harm whether you are in your body or out of it (you have to leave it eventually).  And yes, just like anywhere else in life some people out here are misguided (maybe even me) - but i have found that I'm a lot better off praying for my own spiritual understanding than worrying about other people being misled by satan.  When I find myself stewing over others' spirituality it's usually a way of avoiding taking a closer look at my own life.

Peace. []

This is one of my favorite books.  The story is so simple and yet it packs in so many great lessons about life.

I just heard that he has sold the movie rights and it will be made into a major motion picture, starring Madonna, of all people!  Yes, - I'm pretty sure I heard that right!  That seems weird to me in that there really isn't a large female role in it, and it seems cheesey to me because almost every movie Madonna makes bombs!

Hmmm.  Anyway, - great book!

Vesselinpeev,

Thanks for your response.  I appreciate that others might find wisdom in Chalko's book.  As I said he seems to have reitereated many spiritual truths that I've read other places.  

And I should make it clear that I didn't disagree with most of his assertions, such as that there is an intelligent creator or that we were created for a purpose.  What I pointed out is that his arguments for these things were not logically sound, in my opinion.

quote:Originally posted by vesselinpeev

The book is very logical to me and my life experience relates to it.

If it works for you, that's great.  Each of us must seek truth in our own way, and truth comes disguised in a variety of forms for us to find it.

quote:...Yes, in the header Adrian has stated that this book has nothing to do with the last one, and Adrian is completely wrong. In fact, it has a lot to do. The number one bibliographic reference for the Freedom book is "Thiaoouba Prophecy", and the former explains most of the same ideas in Michel's book. And please read "Thiaoouba Prophecy" carefully -- these advanced aliens have NOT created life on Earth.

I guess I look with extreme skepticism on any claims involving alien abductions and their relationship to my spiritual life.  There are any number of these types of philosophies that have been tossed around over the years.  I haven't read anything in the Zeta threads on here, but I believe the "Zetas" advocate some entirely different philosophy having to do with aliens and our purpose here on Earth...or perhaps it's the same as the Thiaoouba Prophecy, I'm not sure. Also, there was that Hale-Bopp cult a few years ago who believed that aliens on the Hale-Bopp comet were going to pick them up as it swung by the Earth.  And I'm sure there are many more.

No offense to those who adhere to one of these many alien philosophies but I do not find them credible.  

And no offense again, but I have difficulty with your credibility considering that in your profile you claim to be 2,396 years old.  I do not believe any one on this planet is older than about 120 years and if you were 2,396 years old I would think that you would have read so widely on the subject of spirituality that the information in this book would seem to you, like it does to me, - "rehashed".

I have mixed feelings about casting aspersions as to your credibility because I'm sure you are a nice person.  And I am widely tolerant in my religious views but since you claim to be 2,396 years old I feel compelled to be honest with you and let you know that I not only disbelieve you, but that such a claim causes me to doubt your credibility in other areas. Even though I've only been posting here a short time I've noticed that there are a lot of posters here who seem to role-players rather than spiritual seekers.

However, although this may not be the forum for it I would love to here from you, how it is that you have come to be 2,396 years old and how after all that time your spirtual search brought you to regard the Thiaoouba Prophecy and Freedom of Choice as spiritual truth.

Peace to you. []

quote:Originally posted by Shippo_The_Gothic_Fox

... could it be like say:im in New York, Im watching the people go by, i can hear what there saying when they say it in the Physical Realm. Stuff like that.

I should preface my remarks by saying I'm by no means an expert (3 OBEs), however I've read a fair amount on the subject.  Although I've read accounts of people who claim to have witnessed actual events that is not the norm.  Typically, if you project into the Astral realm you will essentially be in a dream-like environment that has little resemblence to what we regard as "the real world".  However, if you project out of your body and not to an astral plane you will more than likely be in an environment that, depending on your level of lucidity, may look a lot like the "real world" but is in fact just a near-real construct - i.e. little things will be different.  In short, I wouldn't count on evesdropping on conversations too quickly! []

Click on the "Home" link and download Robert Bruce's "Treatise on Astral Projection" or search on Amazon for Astral Projection or OBE for one of many books on the subject (you can find them at the library also) - or peruse the threads out here for information pertaining to various techniques for initiating and OBE. []

Hmmmm....this book puports to explain the meaning of the Universe and why we're here.  In a nutshell, the author Thomas Chalko says that the "Great Intellect" (read: God) created us so that we would grow to love him, ...  The message isn't a whole lot different than New Age, Christian Mysticism, Buddhist type stuff I've already read.  Except that he has created a whole new jargon and series of terms to describe the age-old concepts.

Also, it's important to note that this is the same guy who wrote The Thiaoouba Prophecy, which also purports to explain the meaning of the universe and why we're here.  In the header Adrian has stated that this book has nothing to do with the last one.  Fine, except that when you write two books, each of which provide a different explanation for the meaning of the Universe and why we're here it seems that you owe the reader an explanation.  In the first book he describes a guy, Michael (I think) who was abducted by aliens who took them to their planet and explained to him how they had created life on Earth, yadda yadda.

Anyway, I found a lot of truths in this book - but as I said before they were age-old truths that anyone familiar with New Age thought, and comparitive religions will already have read many times over in a more cohesive format.

And although there were certainly some truths in this book, this man's reasoning logic is very poor which made it hard to take him seriously at all.  I'll give a few examples:

1) To prove to us that there is an intelligent creator the author states that It is easier to make a house than a life.  And since we know that building a house requires planning and design we can therefore conclude that creating life also must require planning and design – i.e. an intellect behind it.

Well, it sounds good, and most of us believe in some sort of intelligent designer anyway, but it is not logically sound thinking.  Just because a less complex thing has a designer it does not logically require that all more complex things also have a designer.

2) He goes on to propose the question of why a house can't construct itself?  He concludes because it requires an intellect to imagine and design the house.

Although true, I would say it's that the construction requires assembly which involves movement, and that raw materials don't possess the ability to move themselves in that way.  However, biological materials DO possess the ability to move and change and assemble over time to create something else.  That doesn't rule out an intellect behind their design but it does show that he's comparing apples and oranges with this example.

3) He states that the only thing required for us to increase our intellect is INTENT (I would suggest raw materials and a pool of knowledge able to be discovered is also necessary, but never mind that).  Therefore he says that the way that the "Great Intellect" came into being is that there was nothing, but this nothing had the INTENT of increasing it's intellect and tada - the Great Intellect came into being.  

I don't see that that explanation for God's beginning is any better than anything else I've read.

4) Next, in order to prove that there is a purpose and meaning behind our being here he asks, "Can you imagine anything with great intellect building something for no reason and with no purpose?"  And from this he asserts categorically that life has a reason and a purpose.

Whatever great intellect is behind all of existence is not subject to the limits of my imagination.  It doesn't seem likely from my puny little human perspective that such an intellect would create something for no reason or no purpose, but the very thought of applying my puny little human reasoning to the motives of such an intellect seems patently absurd!

And then he goes on to basically explain that this Great Intellect wanted to love and be loved (never mind that love didn't exist yet) and so he created us for that purpose (warmed over Christian concept) and gave us free will, cleverly disguising it's own existence...

There are thousands of similar logical flaws and innanities in this trite little document, but like I said he seems to be drawing on some very common metaphysical ideas so there are also some truths in here (as my Dad would say, "even a blind pig finds an acorn once in a while).

So, I won't discuss all 10,000 of the problems with this book but here's a couple more humorous examples:

1) At some point he concludes that our whole purpose is to develop our own intellects without limits.  He thus criticizes religious doctrines and systems that attempt to limit our intellectual development and says that no one should ever put belief systems in place that do this.  

Guess what he does next?  He does exactly what he just said we should never do, - he lists a set of rules to live by which is essentially a belief system that puts parameters around our intellectual development!!!  As per his rules, there should be no:

- Promoting beliefs and belief systems, regardless of their flavor
- Using hypnosis, both individual and collective to implant
beliefs and belief systems (mis-programming the intellect)
- Promoting and sustaining fear of any kind. Examples
include any "fear propaganda" such as promoting fear of
God, fear of disease, fear of death, fear of Hell, fear of
sunshine, or fear of anything else whatsoever.
- Enforcing doctrines and authority of any kind
- Suppressing and ridiculing alternative points of view.
- Interfering with the individual FREEDOM of CHOICE in
any way (like forcing people to follow orders or become
like everyone else for example)
- Disrespect for individuality – following statistics rather
than intellect
- Restricting freedom of thought in any way.
- Clouding of consciousness with drugs, substances and
activities that alter perception
- Reinforcing, promoting and glorifying primitive instincts
- promoting and glorifying violence

Sure, most of these are reasonable but I'm surprised he doesn't see the irony in even presenting such a list!

2) He says that we're all in the dark, but once our intellects are awakened our misconceptions can be corrected quicky - UNLESS WE'VE EVER DONE DRUGS!!! Here's the exact passage and it's hillarious:

"Awakening of the Individual Intellect can result in spectacular reversal of mis-programming. New learning can occur quite quickly, once a person discovers how to use the Intelligence and the Freedom of Choice to regain autonomy. There seems to be only one exception. When a person has used drugs.

One friend of mine told me about a couple of his friends, who experimented with hallucinogenic mushrooms for two months. Only two months. A long time after they stopped - they remain convinced that they are "dolphins". No intelligent conversation is possible. They are "dolphins"..."

Oye!

3) Later when teaching us how to meditate he suggests that we pick a mantra, but not tell anyone because then they might be able to control our minds by telepathically transmitting our mantra to us.

Yeah, right.  So then what should I pick as a mantra - well here's his suggestion:  

"The most widely known mantra is "ooohmmm" or "aaaaummm", but any other similar word will do..."

Excuse me, but if I pick "Om" - wouldn't a devious mind-controlling psycopath figure that out.  Or am I safe because so many people use it that said psycopath wouldn't know whose mind he was controlling?

Anyway, my overall impression of this so-called "theory" is that it needs more time in the oven.  At least the Thiaoouba Prophecy was original!!!

[]

quote:Originally posted by T_Kman0610

...when saying they have answers is like saying they died and came back and said this is where you go. well in that case, i dont believe it because they could of just did an OBE or dreamed they died and came back or something.

I've read a lot on near-death experiences.  Typically, the accounts are similar to an OBE except that they share more similarities - leaving body, going through a tunnel, life review, being told it's not their time, etc.  So, I guess an OBE is a specific type of Astral Projection.

It seems to me that there is a physical/spiritual mechanism built into us humans that facilitates the transfer of the energy body out of the physical.  This mechanism gets invoked at death and can sometimes get triggered by conditions that would normally lead to death, but in some cases don't.  Advances in emergency medicine probably have increased the incidence of NDEs because more people are pulled back from the brink of death.  It seems that this mechanism is also invoked in some way or to some extent by Astral Projection, certain hallucinagens, etc.

quote:who said that when you die you go through 7 stages of the astral planes?

The Tibetan Book of the Dead is one source that describes this process.

quote:who said that it depends on how you were in the physical is where you go in the astral. i believe noone has an answer of these sort of things but only oppinions.

I've read various theories on this, but I think the idea of it is that we are composed of energy and are attracted to like energies.  But who knows why these opinions should be considered valid.  I've often questioned myself why people seem so sure that an astral projection is any kind of indication at all of what happens after death.

And regarding where we go after we die, you're right in that no one can say for sure because if they came back it means they didn't quite die - at least they didn't complete the process.  I'd just say read a wide variety of theories and interpretations, pray over a long period of time that the Holy Spirit would guide you into a better understanding and don't worry about it.  We're all going to find out sooner or later.

Note that there are many mystical forms of Christianity that tell of esoteric (secret) interpretations to Christian doctrine that treat the main components (Creation, fall of man, Christ's death, Revelations, etc.) as symbolic representations of the process of evolution that each soul goes through on it's way back to God.  For me, these interpreations of Christianity answer a lot more of those nagging questions and hold together a lot better.  They also seem to coexist peaceably with other religions because they lend themselves to interpretation that different world religions (as well as physics and intergral psychology, imo) are the reuslt of viewing or approaching God from a different angle (the 3 blind men and the elephant).

If you're interested a good book is "Putting on the Mind of Christ" by Jim Marion.  It's a tough read (based on Ken Wilber's theory of the evolution of consciousness) and I rolled my eyes at parts of it, but over all I thought it did an excellent job of explaining the Christian message from a different perspective - especially the last third of the book or so (the first part spends a certain amount of time describing his personal journey, which may or may not be of interest to some people).  Also, "Adventures Beyond the Body" by William Buhlman gives an interesting perspective on the universe and whatnot. []

The ocean of consciousness that we often call God comprises everything and is essentially energy in a variety of forms.  In that sense all that is real is myriad forms of energy swirling around.

What we call the physical universe is likewise just a particular arrangement of various energy, as are our bodies.  In our case, consciousness (another form of energy) uses various types of perceptive biological constructs (eyes, ears, brain, etc.) to give subjective meaning to different types and arrangements of energy.  Blue is blue because we are biologically hardcoded to perceive it that way.  Likewise with shapes, sounds, etc.

That makes what we perceive as the physical universe "real" in a subjective sense but not real outside the bounds of our particular perceptive constructs.  This would seem to indicate that even in the absence of a physical universe meaning would still be subjective, subject to whatever non-physical perceptive abilities we (or other beings) bring to bear on the pool of energy in which we swim.

This would seem to indicate that if you continued up the spiritual ladder ultimately there would only be energy without meaning (because there would be nothing apart from the energy to perceive it and lend meaning to it).  And without an observer quantum physicists would argue that there is nothing to observe.  Thus, nothing is real and nothing really exists.  But I'm pretty sure that I'm missing something here and that somewhere behind it all is the all-encompasing consciousness that we call God. []

quote:Originally posted by DjM

Originally posted by RJA

I concur.  In fact, we have been in agreement on a few other posts.  Kindred spirits? []

Apparently.  I only discovered this site a week ago or so, but I've enjoyed your posts and am generally impressed with the thoughtfulness of most of the posters out here. It's been very enjoyable. []

quote:Originally posted by Fat_Turkey

I guess the only thing I'm frustrated with is that I'll never be as big a leader as Buddha, Jesus, or Ghandi.

Ghandi never intended to be a big, spiritual leader.  He worked as a lawyer (barrister) in London and championed the rights of the poor, but very gradually transformed into the spiritual leader that he eventually became.  It's interesting to note that he wasn't the type of leader that just sat around on a mat talking about spirituality.  He actually walked from town to town in India teaching the poor how about hygiene, growing their own food, etc.  He was very concerned with empowering people to be self-sustaining so that others would not have power over them.

You may end up a world-renowned spiritual leader, but you don't need to strive to be a great leader like them.  I believe that our lives have purposes and for some of us our purpose may be to toil in obscurity, performing valuable work but getting no recognition.  It is our egos that crave stature and recognition.  At 40 years old, despite thinking on this for decades, I still crave recognition.  On one level I desperately desire to let go of my ego, and yet in so many ways I still want to be thought important, to be envied, to be well-regarded by the "world". Ego, ego, ego - banishing it may be easier for some, I don't know, but for me it's a lifelong battle.

And high school is the toughest time of life in that regard probably because your entire life is ahead of you and it holds so much possibility.  Additionally, at that age we are awash in hormones and developing emotions and swimming in an atmosphere where the pressure to conform and be accepted is greater than anywhere else in life.  And yet, it is good because it's a very valuable learning environment.  Remember that whether you succeed or fail in any particular endeaver, - take a spiritual lesson away from it.  The world is our cosmic classroom and spiritual lessons can be drawn everyday from everything around us.

quote:People and their egos will strut around until we're all dead for all I can see.

Yes.  Every soul that exists is being slowly refined.  I believe the physical human race was specifically designed as a vessel in which our souls could be placed for the express purpose of spiritual growth.  Egos strutting around, to me, is evidence that this process is occurring as it's supposed to.  And although it's aggravating watching others' egos, I recognize that all of the flaws that I see in others exist in me to some degree and that I'm probably blind to many of my own faults.  So I try to stay focused on smoothing out my own rough edges and I try to cut others a lot of slack, figuring that they also are going through this same process.

quote:I just haven't really developed a love of all people because as far as I'm concerned right now, more than half the people around me are total pricks, have never done anything kind for others and are only friends with other people for their own personal gains in popularity or otherwise - but then again, that's High School for ya.

Again, this goes back to your perspective on why we're all here.  They're a work in progress and in our own way we're all egotistic pricks to one degree or another.  I continually remind myself that others are works in progress and I also employ various tricks when I'm tempted to think poorly of someone.  If the person in front of me is driving too slow, I pretend it's my mom who also drives slow, etc.

Another thing I like to do when someone does something that I don't like, is to contemplate *why* they acted that way.  What forces have shaped them?  What are their motives?  What is really behind their actions?  Often I believe that insecurity, ignorance, and the need for acceptance are behind many unkind actions and if you trace motives back far enough it is usually FEAR that is behind those other causes.  Fear of not being liked or accepted.  Fear of failing a class or being dumped or being laughed at or not being invited to a party or losing one's job or being sick, etc.  Fear manifests itself in a thousand different ways and the ego responds to fear by invoking a defense mechanism: make fun of someone else so that I won't be made fun of, act tough so that I won't be thought of as weak, act confident so that my insecurity won't be visible, dump her before she can dump me, don't risk emotional closeness with another so that I can't get hurt, etc.  

I find that even understanding my own motives is a slow process of applying these same questions to my own actions.  Why am I negative toward that particular person at work?  Because I secretly resent that she has a higher job than me. Why? Because she's younger and I don't think she deserves that job. Why does that affect me? Because I feel jipped and a little disappointed that I haven't been promoted.  Why do I want to be promoted?  Money, recognition.  Why are these things important to me? etc.  Ultimately it comes down to my ego being insecure and afraid.  But little by little I'm learning to see life from the perspective of an observer, striving to see it from God's perspective and trying to focus on the raging ego inside of me rather than others' faults (Carl Jung would say that those qualities in others that particular annoy me are the qualities in myself that I have pushed into my subconscious and am now projecting onto others).

Life is a process and pain, anger, jealousy, resentment, loathing, lonliness, etc. are just as valuable a part of the human experience as are the more positive emotions.  They are red flags thrown up by our spirits to tell us to take note and learn from what we are feeling.  Spiritual growth is about coming to know ourselves and allowing ourselves to be inwardly transformed. Too much focusing on others is a way of avoiding that process.

Anyway, that's my rant for today. []

quote:Originally posted by Fat_Turkey

Nobody cares about anything anymore... People are getting away with being total dipsh**s...nobody seems to give a damn about spirituality anymore...I go to a school which the majority of dumbf***s that go there are from the other 2/3 of the population - idiots, sheep, morons, materialists...conceited bastards...people don't think for themselves anymore...Humanity = sheep...Humanity = idiots...People are stupid...unwise greedy morons run the systems...Shallow idiots running around...lately I've had bitter-sweet dreams of humankind being almost extinct...No more dipsh**s...No more sheep...no more idiots...

Your utter contempt and loathing for the human race is coming across loud and clear.  If it weren't for your repeated assurances that you are spiritual, I might mistake your rantings as those of someone who takes guns to school and mows down his classmates. But since you let it be known in no uncertain terms that you are a spiritual giant and a deep thinker I can simply regard the incongruency in your statements to be a humorous and ironic juxtaposition.

But seriously, - you're 14 years old and you've figured out that world is a jumbled amalgamation of hypocrisy, conflicting motives, greed, corruption, suffering, lies and victimization.  Congratulations, you have taken the first step on a life-long journey toward spirituality.  Now your task is to learn to regard the whole mess through the lens of love - Note that the great spiritual leaders throughout time (Jesus, Ghandi, etc. ...) all truly loved even the lowliest of people. No one can tell anyone else how to do this, but I believe if you choose a spiritual tradition (Christianity, Buddhism, ...) and genuinely seek God though it you will be transformed in your thinking over the course of your physical lifetime here.  

At 40 years old I am making my way along this path, and yes it is lonely in some regards, because to truly seek spirituality is to swim against the tide of modern culture.  But I've learned not to focus on others' faults or the circumstances around me, but rather to trust in God that he (I hate using that pronoun) has a plan that is bigger than me and that I'm not aware of.  I've also had to accept that there's very little I do know, and a whole lot I don't know.  And I've had to accept that I am no more important in the cosmic scheme of things than the next person.

In short, it's difficult to assess one's level of spirituality but generally it shows in the way we think about and act toward all of creation.  (The Bible lists the "fruits of the Spirit", i.e. the signs of a spiritual life, as Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness and Self Control.  Not that we should just "do" these things, but that if we are truly living a spiritual life, these qualities will be a natural outgrowth of that.

Peace to you.  []

Well put DjM.

I recently read "Fast Food Nation" which describes how fast food has transformed our culture over the last half-century.  And although it was clear that the entire process was insidious it was also clear that it was a manifestation of our values, - i.e. our societal values gradually made real.  We wanted cheap, convenient and tasty - and we got it.  But we close our eyes to the downside - the labor abuses, unhealthy effects of eating it, poor treatment of animals, etc.

What you describe is similar I think.  We (at least Americans) value things that are superficial and materialistic and over time our values shape the institutions around us, - governments, schools, churches, etc. so that they parrot back to us what we really want to hear.  Be a productive citizen, drive a nice SUV, don't think too deeply, don't ponder things, don't color outside of the lines - just go with the program and we'll all be happy.  And don't worry about spiritual development, we've got you covered - just pick from among any of these nice, innocuous churches and you'll go to Heaven when you die.

quote:Originally posted by LA FORET MAUVE

the problem of fearing the void is that could make you becoming a born again christian...be careful ! []

lol! []

I think of prayer as talking and meditation as listening.  I can't do both very well at the same time.  

Talking is easy so that's what we tend to do, yammering on and on about what we want - give me this, give me that, help me make more money, heal Aunt Edna's back problem, ...  Prayer, when done from the perspective of our ego tends to focus us on what we want, but don't have - and thus can cause underlying anxiety.  When done wrong it is pursued as the subtle art of manipulating God to our will.  I think that in general when we pray we should ask for things spiritual - that we would grow in spirituality, that our egos would be brought into union with God's plans, that we would experience the inner transformation that Christ spoke of, that we would see and understand the world from God's perspective rather than our own.

Meditating is difficult because it essentially involves sitting stil and shutting up long enough, and over a long enough period of time to tune into "God".  Meditation is listening to what God wants to tell us and submitting ourselves humbly to an unseen plan far greater than we can imagine.

The older I get the less use I seem to have for prayer - God knows what I want and need.  God's will is not subject to my whims.  God sees the big picture and I don't.  I pray for spiritual growth and guidance, but so much of the rest of it seems petty (material possessions and even health, to a certain degree) when put in perspective.

I haven't brought the appropriate will to bear on the issue of meditation in order to make it a consistent practice in my life, but I'm getting there and am happy with my progress.

That's my .02 on prayer v. meditation. []

DjM,

Nice Post! Most Christian churches today (including the one I attend) are more about religion rather than spirituality.  They teach us to "say the magic words" and then tithe and fill a seat in church each Sunday until we die and go to Heaven.  And in the meantime they find a variety of different tasks for us to perform in order to keep their institution running smoothly.  Many of these tasks are worthy (helping the poor, etc.) and many others are just busy work disguised as something of spiritual value (Bible thumping).  

They discourage any genuine spiritual seeking, because since they already have all the answers there is no need for us to stray from what they tell us.  Things fall into two buckets: "truth" or "a lie from Satan" and anything that doesn't jive with their rock-solid understanding of scripture falls into category two - and this includes much of science, literature, and anything that seeks to raise consciousness or explore spirituality such as astral projection, meditation, etc.

They control by fear and guilt.  If you don't behave the way we say you should God will be mad at you.  If, given enough chances, you don't conform to their way of doing things you will go to hell and be tortured eternally with no hope of salvation - so get back in line and put your money in the hat like the scared little bunny that you are!

And yet the folks who perpetuate this system have good intentions, as much victims as they are agents of a belief-system that is self-perpetuating.  The people are nice, the intentions are nice, and some of the results are good.  But ultimately it serves to keep people a safe distance from any truly spiritual and personal encounter with God.  I don't know exactly what Jesus had in mind, but I'm sure it wasn't this.

But the tide is turning and one by one, people are breaking out of the rigid confines of organized religion, and are being drawn by God to seek him in a personal and spiritual way.  It's a slow process, though and for me the challenge is to muster the energy each day to swim against the tide of organized religion and to respond faithfully to my own inner voice and see where it leads.[]

It sounds like you got to the vibrational state immediately preceding leaving your body but you weren't quite able to seperate.  I've only had 3 OBEs (all in the last month) but before that I had a couple experiences like yours - I think the idea is that when you feel the "tingling" or those other feelings try to relax and mentally encourage it to spread all over your body and then either try to float up out of your body, or sit up, or roll out.

Interesting!  I'd say you somehow grabbed the attention of his astral self.[]

I'm a beginner, but I get the impression that it's partly a matter of learning "how to OBE" but also that by reading/meditating/doing OBE techniques, etc. we are slowly programming our subconscious and that sooner or later it just starts happening - not because we've gotten better at it, but somehow because our spirit or subsconscious or whatever finally "got the message".

What makes me think this is that I had my first 3 OBEs in the last 4 or 5 weeks and it surprised me because other than thinking a lot about it I didn't do much in the way of a "technique".  I'm typically too tired and fall asleep really fast (2 or 3 minutes) so basically all i've done is a few minutes of a visualization while thinking "Now I'm out-of-body" while going to sleep.  On the first two OBEs I woke up later and popped out of my body without even trying (didn't even feel the vibrations).  On the third one I woke up and felt a slight vibration and was able to relax and get it to spread and then was able to sit up and out.  

So I don't think I *did* anything in particular but rather that just by thinking/reading a lot about OBEs it somehow over time programmed my subconscious to do it.

Why it takes some people longer and others shorter is beyond me (I tried a year ago and got to the vibrational state a few times, but quit trying after a few weeks.  Then when I picked it up again this time the first OBE happened in about 2 weeks).

I get the impression that where the practice comes in is in what you can do after you're out of your body.[]

Lately that technique hasn't worked for me.  I noticed that on those occasions where it did get me to the vibrational state, I seemed to be at the right point between sleep and wake so that when I started doing the technique I really felt the interior motion of going down and back up.  Usually though, like now I imagine myself dropping down and then coming back up but that's all it is - imagining, - I don't *feel* the movement.  This makes me think that the technique is less important that doing it when other things are already happening, - i.e. right place between wake and sleep, right type of brain waves occurring, etc.

I tend to think that if you hit the "window" where those brain states are right that any variety of technique will get the vibrations going but that if those other conditions aren't present the OBE techniques aren't going to work as well.

Last night I woke up at 3:15am and did the "Mind awake, body asleep" technique posted in another thread out here.  It got me to a light trance I think (like I said, I'm a beginner so I don't even know for sure what a "trance" state should feel like) and I stayed there for an hour, kind of right on the edge of sleep where it seemed like my body was asleep and my mind was kind of doing a variety of creative visualizations and neat things.  But despite playing around with a variety of different OBE techniques (rope, ladder, falling, etc.) - no vibrational state.[]

2 Corinthians 12:2-3 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven--whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. And I know that this man was caught up into Paradise--whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows--"

In this passage Paul is talking about himself, of course.  His wording "whether in the body or out of the body I do not know" clearly indicates that Paul and his readers were familiar with, and not bothered by the concept of being out of one's body.

Also, there are continual references throughout the Bible about being "in the Spirit" which are probably also references to OBEs.  

Books like "The Oxford History of the Bible" (look for it on Amazon) will provide a thorough and scholarly history of how the Bible came to be in it's current form.  Nearly every seminary in the country teach classes on this, so it's not a secret or a plot to suggest that our current version of the Bible has been subjected to a variety of revision and editing through the centuries.  

Also, it should be noted that at the time of the Reformation several books were removed from the Canon.  Martin Luther wanted to also remove The Revelation (not Christ-centered enough) and James (to works-oriented) also but didn't have enough support for that.  So for those that argue that the Bible is and always was God's complete and perfect and unalterable word, - you must then ask which canon are you referring to, the one before the Reformation or after.  They can't both be perfect and unalterable.  So either God allowed his church to use a screwed up version for 1600 years or else he's letting us use a screwed up version now - which is it?

Jesus came to bring truth to the Jewish nation but they were so hung up on their written law that they couldn't accept Jesus' message.  Jesus exhorted people to live by the "perfect law of freedom" and to "live by the Spirit" rather than to blindly follow a written law.  It is obvious that he wanted people to genuinely seek and relate to God via the Holy Spirit rather than to follow a written law.  What is sadly ironic is that today the Christian church has fallen into the same trap all over again, inventing a new written law - the New Testament - and making that their God instead of genuinely seeking God through the Holy Spirit.  When Jesus ascended he said that he would send a helper - the Holy Spirit - but he didn't say anything about a new written law.  Unfortunately it is our human nature to be scared little bunnies, foolishly clinging onto something we can hold and touch (The Bible) instead of embarking on the less clear, and more challenging path of genuinely seeking God through direct experience - it's the golden calf thing all over again.

I believe the Bible contains valuable spiritual truths, but I like to think of the Bible as a God's workbook and the Holy Spirit as the teacher.  When one places the Bible before the Holy Spirit it is a religious "cop-out" that only serves to ensure a spiritual status-quo.

If you took a math class you would use the textbook to learn how to solve problems.  You wouldn't just memorize the answers in the back of the book.  Unfortunately people treat the Bible differently.  They pretend that it contains the exact correct answer for each of life's problems instead of thinking of it as a book that will help them in their approach to life's challenges.  When you turn it into a rule book, so lose all of the value and you end up living a life of fearful obedience rather than joyful, spiritual discovery.  

It should also be noted that the Christian church has a long history of mysticism (St. John of the Cross, St. Teresa of Avila) who clearly have had OBEs.  There is a current re-emerging interest in a form of "centering prayer" that Catholic monks have practiced for centuries (look for books at Amazon on Centering Prayer, or by Thomas Keating).  In one book I read it sounded like among Catholic monks various phenomina like OBEs, levitating, speaking in tongues, etc. are all very common - which is not suprising since in every spiritual tradition continued practice in quieting the mind and meditating seem to lead to OBEs.  

It's clear that God built a spiritual mechanism into us that facilitates us leaving our bodies.  Those who believe OBEs are somehow a gateway to evil need to ask themselves why God would make it so easy for us to leave our bodies if *he* didn't mean for us to do it?  Which is not to say that certain people won't abuse the ability, - but just to assert that it is a normal, spiritual occurrence that can be used for the purpose of spiritual growth.

I'm new to this site and new to AP.

About a year ago I read Buhlman's "Adventures Beyond the Body" and within a few weeks got to the vibrational state three nights in a row using this technique (which I found on the web somewhere): when near sleep imagine yourself sinking through your bed, a foot at a time until you are on the floor.  Then imagine floating back up and begin the sinking process again.  Despite never having reached the vibrational state before when I tried this technique I had a huge response within 10 seconds - it felt like a semi-truck was driving through my body.  The next two nights I got to the vibrational state but the vibrations weren't as strong.  On none of the occasions was I able to successfully get out of my body.  On the first night as the vibrations subsided I heard, in my head, this strange music (and very real) that can only be described as "mystical wind chimes" - hmmmm.

Then I stopped trying until recently.  Within the last month I've had 3 or 4 OBEs (one might have been a lucid dream - I "woke up" flying and thought I was having an OBE but I don't actually remember leaving my body).  Twice I just woke up at night and spontaneously left my body without trying (except that I had done some sort of OBE technique before going to sleep).  The first time it happened I was awakened by a spinning sensation as if my body were being flipped upside down on a spindle very quickly and then I (the astral me) was on all fours beside the bed.  The next time I woke and sat up and realized I was half-way out and then I got up the rest of the way.  A few days ago I woke up and felt vibrations in my neck area and I relaxed and encouraged them to spread throughout my body and after a minute or so was able to sort of sit-up and get out of my body. During this experience while I had the vibrations I also heard voices and felt hands on me.  I don't remember much about what the voices were saying except, strangely enough, I remember them talking about my twin brother! (I do have a twin, but why would they be talking about him?)

On all three of these occasions I wasn't very organized in "using an OBE technique", but rather before going to sleep just visualized climbing a rope or ladder for a minute or so while repeating in my mind "Now, I'm out-of-body".  It seems like by just expressing my intention while falling asleep it somehow caused me to wake up later (I'm not sure how much later) at the right time to OBE.  I think I'm generally sleep deprived and I typically will fall asleep within a few minutes any time my head hits the pillow so maybe that worked to my advantage in that I was able to easily hold my intention/thoughts on OBE at the moment I fell asleep.

In all three experiences I was lucid enough in the beginning to realize that I was out of my body, and to decide what to do next.  The first two times I went through our bedroom wall out onto our deck and the 3rd time I went downstairs and out the front door.  But each time after that the experience devolved to where I was still aware that I was having an OBE but the events were very dreamlike and nonsensical and not that vivid.  I've got to try next time to keep more clarity and awareness. []