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So I tried putting my agenda to the side. I tried to get into a light trance, and, trusting that my higher self has my best interests at heart, asked what I should try next. Interestingly, as near as I can figure, the answer was along the lines of "stop enjoying trance" or "stop trancing" or something like that. (You know, they don't always speak so clearly.)

So I tried to get the trance to a different place, one that was not as deep and enjoyable (peaceful, serene, restful) by barely twitching two of my fingers on my right hand. I just kept them barely moving for the next little while (twenty minutes?) It kept me feeling less buzzy and more alert.

I still eventually fell asleep, but I think this is a possible thing to explore. The idea that maybe sometimes we sink too fast. So sometimes, trying to keep it lighter might be actually prolong the various stages. (In a good way.)

For the first time I had something that felt like purposeful sleep paralysis, but only for a split second. I was twitching my fingers, and concentrating on that (And thinking that this might be a stimulus to focus on as long as I kept it simple and all) . Anyway, at one point, I couldn't move them, and though it didn't frighten me, it got my attention - I thought "Whoa, I am trying to move my fingers and they aren't responding" but the state passed before I even finished the thought.

Hardly a breakthrough, hardly worth mentioning, but I think it was a learning session nonetheless. And you can see elements of all your feedback in the experience, so another THANK YOU.

Patty

Hi  

I didn't have much to add, but I appreciate your feedback to my posts, so I thought I would at least make the effort.  I do hear all sorts of cracks and pops when I trance at night. I think it is the house 'settling' and I only notice it when I am looking for stillness. Usually I stop noticing it after a while. That's close to when I fall asleep lately.

Patty

Hi Jouni,

I always thought that any kind of event (noise, spasm, etc) that grabbed your attention during trance was one of two things:

Your fear manifesting to keep you from progressing, or,

An event provided by your subconscious to put you where you 'need' to be to reach your goals.  If it results in fear, then maybe your subconscious is directing you to address your fears.

I haven't had the scary noise bit, except for a =BOOM= once, which sounded like an atomic explosion and scared the **** out of me. But I think that might have been a re-entry noise, not an exit noise. I do have spasmodic jerks during trance, and I wonder if it is a reaction to keep me in the right zone --- like if I start to fall asleep my subconscious realizes and jerks a muscle to wake me up.

This one,  < 2c.

Patty

Synchronicity -

I just dug up that link for a friend about twenty minutes ago - haven't visited Peterson's site in months.

I like his style, he's one of my faves.

Patty

Hi Windameir and Ralph,

Windameir, your post is generating new thoughts..... Thank you .......


Ralph - I agree. I feel like there are different things that contribute, and they aren't things we control. So many things. Tension is a good word for it. Sometimes I can trance so easily, other times my mind is racing, or a song won't leave my head. I feel different.

Sometimes I wake up knowing I can walk away, and I do. Sometimes I wake up and know that I can't.  

I am of two minds about OBE, as intimated throughout this thread. One mind says to let it happen on it's own. The other mind says that as with everything else in life, practice pays off. Balance is important to me, I don't know how to balance these well. In the past I have swung back and forth. Maybe that is balance. I would rather stick to a more steady balance.

oh gee, I'm starting to ramble. lots of grist for the mill here, thank you everyone.

Patty

thanks some more!

RM - your technique sounds like something I was doing a few years ago. Similar, not exactly the same. I was trying to raise energy and I would envision a block of pure white energy moving into my chest. Amazing sensation.   Thank you also for the reminder that we continue to learn and grow. I also feel real dedication at present, thanks to this forum.

James, your story is very funny. I was in a similar situation once to your friends across the room - I won't go into details but I can sympathize with them! So funny that you were unaware. I will spend some time looking at which senses speak most to me. Perhaps I can tune in, in another way.

Frank, thanks for your thoughts, having your alternative perspective is invaluable. I am definitely a 'method' type person. I like to understand the mechanism behind things. You're right about ego attachment and I will try to be more open to other possibilities of travel. That's really good advice, similar to some of the other tips. Although in terms of destination, I feel like I am in complete harmony with my higher self and guides on this one. I feel like every time I tune into guidance, that the real time zone is what is best for my present growth, due to my life history (which I haven't gone into much, here.)  Still, I always *highly* welcome your input - from my perspective we are all like the five blind men describing an elephant by feel (do you know that story?) I can't get a complete picture without input from the guy on the other side of the elephant.  We'll see - I may decide to try for a high level astral projection, give it a try and see what it holds.

thank you everyone, I am so glad to have this forum -



Patty

Ahhhh, Jeff and Rodentmouse, now I feel all warm inside!

heh heh heh heh heh ..... That's great -

Hey Tom - here's one that isn't as easy:

http://www.colorgenics.com/

Patty

Introspective
Sensitive
Reflective



You come to grips more frequently and thoroughly with yourself and your environment than do most people. You detest superficiality; you'd rather be alone than have to suffer through small talk. But your relationships with your friends are very strong, which gives you the inner tranquility and harmony that you require. You do not mind being alone for extended periods of time; you rarely become bored.



Patty

Ooohhhh - sorry, I didn't mean to come across as flippant ---

I mean that sometimes the feelings (like the paralyzed biiiip) come on their own, with no effort.  So after you 'gave up' all of a sudden the sensation was there.

Sometimes you might find yourself out of body, walking around the house,  without any effort at all. That's what I meant by not hard.

but like you said, sometimes you can try and try and try, like you did, and feel like you are getting nowhere. that can be really hard.

you can try a trick I use --- if you get paralyzed and can't 'get' out, just think about 'being' out. Just 'be' out. Sometimes that results in a very small blackout followed by me being separate from my body. I miss the exit, but I get out.  I got that tip from a guide and it works. If it doesn't work for you, you could also try listening for tips from your own guides. Mine have been quiet lately, I need to listen harder or something.

Patty

Thanks guys!

You're both right. Jouni, I need to look for the door. Fallnangel, I need to try more variation and consider there might be something else going on.

maybe what is going on is my fear of outcome with my next card trial. Maybe my subconsciuos is either afraid of success (because that would put the odds of my cumulative success into the 'highly improbable due to chance' category - which would require an overhaul of my belief system) or failure (because failure really sucks.) I have considered changing goals for a while - maybe stop looking for verification for a few runs.  Maybe I just need to meditate on accepting that my belief system might need to change. No small potatoes to my way of thinking. Maybe if i can go into the attempt with more acceptance of a possible belief-system crash  - maybe I will have more luck.

Taking a break always seems to help. But I don't want to. i want to be able to strengthen my limited abilities through practice and discipline.  I guess maybe I have control issues too!

I'm going to keep at it. Interacting on this forum is so helpful, I really am going to go for a push for the next couple days. Saturday nights usually have been good for me to try - because I can sleep late sundays.

I welcome ALL input, thanks again!

(ps about 9 month olds, I have two small children. Your little one WILL learn, and it is so hard to watch them struggle with this. I think that we learn how to consciously relax to facilitate sleep. I think that the images that I drift off with - without realizing it til last night - are a method I learned over the years. I am sorry that your little one is going through this, even though many babies do, it is hard to feel so tired yourself and so helpless.)

Patty

Hey Tisha -

You made a good point - I guess one part that I forgot to mention was this: In trying to sort through how to handle the situation I found myself in,  (A long process!) eventually I had a dream revolving around this person. It wasn't a sexual dream, but it was a sort of dream about how we could still interact in a positive way (through non-lucid dreams) without any conflict (no questionable ethics.) It was a pleasant sort of "We've known each other through many lifetimes and that will never change" kind of dream.  That dream was a big part of my decision to cut the conscious whatever-it-was in THIS lifetime. It was a dream about how we respected each other - and that included respecting our families because they are a part of us.

I've had a couple similar dreams since, again not sexual - but rather affirming.  

Also I agree that there are all sorts of aspects to physical sex/relationships that could potentially lead to dissapointment. Lots of times a little thing, like getting your hair accidentally pulled by your partner, or some other small physical thing, can take a splendid experience and make it simply "OUCH! Stop that!" And the personal traits as well - could present a challenge to the developing relationship to say the least.

Hi again Clarissa,

If you decide to cut the sex, you might add another weapon to your astral arsenal - try to program yourself to dream about this man non-lucidly. It could serve two purposes - It could be a weaning sort of transitional thing, or it could be a means for your subconscious to talk to you about it, help you sort through the situation. If  this sounds like a bad idea, then don't do it.

And if you ever want to talk about your situation feel free to pm me. I haven't been exactly where you are by a long shot, but I do care.

Patty

GREAT!

See? It's not hard! (but it's also not easy!)

I'm glad that you had such a quick early success.  Every time gets a little more manageable.

Are ya still grinning?  I think I was walking on a cloud for a couple days after my first memorable experience.



Patty

Neat!

I can't really give you a firm answer on how to have them more frequently ---- I suggest trying things like dream journaling, affirmations, and trying to stay awake as your body falls asleep. Asking for help from your higher self or prayer might help. I think storing energy in the subnavel storage center (per Robert's suggestions in AD) seems like a good idea. And thinking about it all day doesn't hurt; keeps you into the right mental state.

About having more clarity/memory - I think looking at your hands helps, keeping a running dialog while your out ("Now I am walking from my bed, etc) might help, keeping the experience short helps.

Buhlman suggests demanding clarity while out, that hasn't worked for me.

I love sharing ideas and tips on this forum, and I really really like the people here.  It's a tremendous resource. But you might find that ultimately what works for one person doesn't work for you. So try different things, and don't give up.

Patty

Hi Riso,

Where's your handle from? Is that from a movie? It sounds familiar.

If it's any consolation, there are also experiences that you will be absolutely convinced are physically based - and when you check you will realize that they weren't physical at all! For a short period of time, in the mornings, I used to try to release my astral arms from my physical arms, and clasp my astral hands together to feel them. It felt so entirely mundane, the whole process - lying there, slowly raising my arms, then holding my hands together. Felt completely 'normal.'  Several times in disgust I said "This is so stupid. I know I'm just moving my physical arms" but when I opened my eyes I saw my physical arms lying peacefully on the bed. Once I even saw my 'etheric' arms - shimmery pink and really pretty, holding hands together.

So hang in there, keep it up, keep the faith, you'll get it.

And believe it or not, I'm still a skeptic. Sigh.

Patty

Intuitively it seems to me that it should be learnable ---- to tell what is generated ('not real' if that means anything) and to tell what exists independant of the experiencer ('real' if that means anything.)

"Astral anthropomorphism" is a great expression. Although the writer that was quoted (S. LaBerge) is something of a believer, I wonder if the study that LaBerge mentioned was asking the projectors to read a note in the dark, or something equally unrealistic for most projectors.

The naive expectation is that one can identify what is on the nonphysical planes as easily as one can identify physical items.  (Due to hype, some believe that it should be even easier to identify items while 'out' because of occasional claims of 'hyperrealism.') So people often set experiments with long odds - like they write a note or have a six digit number somewhere or something.

But - any one particular six-digit number has an awful lot in common with any other six-digit number. And when you project, there could be all sorts of things coloring the experience - so the number might come across in any number of ways. But only an exact match counts as a hit.  If the number is 131313 and you report 313131 --- That's not a hit any more than 111333 or 286574 is.

Even when someone DOES get the 1 in a million hit - it has to be reproduced.

If you set smaller odds, like ask whether the target is a doughnut or a screwdriver, odds of success is 1 in 2, the projector can hopefully work through some of the confusing elements to at least distinguish a doughnut from a screwdriver. then a hit isn't as spectacular, but you can slowly address whether something beyond chance is going on.

I'm really going off on a tangent. I hope that we can learn to distinguish what is 'real' from what is 'not real.'  It's my pet hobby for the foreseeable future.

See ya in the real time zone!

And I'm glad that some contributors here don't go there, because I love hearing about the *astral* levels, and I don't have plans to go there personally for some time. So I can project vicariously through Frank, Tisha, et al.



Patty

Hi Clarissa,

I should clarify - the second type of experience - when I say I was trying to be open to guides - it's not in the context of sex. My intent is more along the lines of my energy system being blocked or something, and sometimes I ask for help from a guide in clearing it. The results can end up feeling very internal and intimate. Sort of like a very deep full body massage from the inside out --- but I wondered if that was similar in sensation to what you had, or not. It sounds like you are experiencing something different.  Maybe more similar to the first, but even then the specifics seem different.

You know - the other situation I mentioned - there wasn't really any phone contact. The occasional personal contact was face - to - face and we have spoken on the phone only a few times. If he or I were in the habit of calling one another ---- that would really make things hard. And obviously we didn't have the history that you have. What I am trying to say is that I don't think I was all that strong, because my situation wasn't as involved as your own.  I wonder if he was as surprised as I was by the event I related. I never asked and don't intend to - but things seemed to ease off considerably after that.  So maybe we were both a little stunned and realized we were playing with something that was best left alone.

Still, you're right when you talk about addiction. Some people really are addictive. I tend to get hooked, and that's probably why it has taken a while to get back to some level of rationality about it. You might consider getting an unlisted phone number if you need to cut the contact. You might have a different situation though; maybe I tend to get addicted more easily. It's sure to be a personal thing.

Good luck with your situation - I will be thinking of you over the weekend and hoping for the best possible outcome for all parties.

(((hug)))

Patty

WOW!

I never come over to this forum because of the whole 'negative' spin on AP.  this thread is amazing.

hi Clarissa, you mentioned being glad that another woman had chimed in, so I thought I would chime in, too.

I've had two different sorts of experiences that relate here.

One was a "Wham Bam Thank you Ma'am" sexual thing a few months ago.  This related to a living person - we had occasional personal contact and I had felt for months or years that I was trying to keep him psychically/mentally/telepathically (whatever) at a distance. I'm married, so is he, I really didn't want to go down that road, but the effort of keeping a mental distance was draining. I finally decided to let my guard down one night, and BOOM.  You know the song "I want a man with slow hands"? Well, that was sort of what I expected, but I guess the years of repression made things manifest a little differently. Heh. It was intense though, full body blast, like I was thrown against a wall.  And very satisfying --- it reminded me of Monroe's explanation in book 1 for male/female being like positive/negative charges that can't help themselves but collide.

Anyway, I doubt hubby would make much of it, skeptic that he is, but I still don't want to dally there. It would consume me. I don't want to hurt him, even if he thought it was all in my mind, the fact that it was in my mind would hurt him. I make a point to not have personal contact with this person any more. After a few months of disciplined abstinence, the yearnings are starting to get out of my system, and I find I am able to shift any remaining spontaneous thoughts/desires into a harmless fantasy about someone (anyone) I don't know.  Which feels much less problematic.

The second sort of experience happens now and then on its own - not during a projection but during the trancework. Sometimes I try to be open to guides etc. Usually these are not living people. Sometimes they are living people who I have not met but trust, and feel can teach me something.

This doesn't really feel like sex, but it feels incredibly intimate. Like they are getting into my heart chakra and permeating through the rest of my body. I have to consciously let go of control  if I want the experience to deepen. It takes a real effort. Very satisfying, no physical climax, but very intimate. Far more intimate than sex, more like inhabiting the same space precisely. But like I said, no climax. Sort of dissipates slowly and leaves me warm.

Anyway, brave soul that you are for posting, now I have another forum to check every time I visit! This thread is hot!

Patty

Hi Melkay,

My living daughters are 5 and a half and 2 and a half. So I had to check your profile, make sure you were a mom (not a dad) and generally see how similar our profiles are.

I love your last hobby.

I don't know the answer to your question. One time a few months ago when I was trying to project, I saw my five year old in mybedroom and became very angry that she was not in bed where she belonged. heeheehee. Sometimes in my flying dreams she is just staring at me from the ground, and I feel sad for her - but tell her that she'll get the hang of it eventually.  I'm guessing your best bet is to keep watching for more incidents, and see if they ever have a memory that matches up. Mine don't ever have a matching memory.

Welcome!

Patty

HI!

I don't know that I can help. I have trouble relaxing my jaw, too.  but I can do it if I try. Then it tenses up again.

I just keep relaxing everything else, progressively more, and when I start to fall asleep my jaw naturally goes slack. DO you let yourself get that close to sleep? It is hard to hold your self there, but worth the effort. I usually fall asleep and jerk back to awareness, and sometimes it easier then to get tranced.

You might find that allowing some variation in your routine will help ---- Maybe try a different approach? Monroe's?  Peterson's? your own instincts?



Patty

[quite unanimous]

quote:Wherever else they
may differ, for instance whether the "two bodies" are or are
not connected by a "silver cord," persons who have had out-
of-the-body experiences are quite unanimous in being
'absolutely certain' that they are not dreams.

This is just plain wrong. I am an experiencer. I am not certain that they are not dreams.  I have tremendous respect for the ability of our subconscious to create very elaborate and convincing scenes for us that may well be entirely internal.

As everyone else says - what does it ultimately matter? Tisha's got it right.

on the other hand, I really really really really really really hope that Robert is able to do his demonstration that he has mentioned on Art Bell.

My OBE's, I try to verify. I don't make it hard, because of the fluctuations. I'd like to see the study that they did. I might try to dig that up. I have had considerably more success than what you expect by chance, in verifying my experiences. The results I have gotten to date - you expect to get by chance like 2% of the time.  So possibly I'm not really 'out' but doubtful. more likely I'm 'out' and encountering reality fluctuations.

Patty

ZPE - I put a card out face up every night before bed.  I have my eyes closed when I do this. I have a lot of reality fluctuations though, so I have a hard time seeing the exact card when I'm out. It morphs from one card to another. So sometimes I use a standard deck, but most of the time I use just aces and face cards, I figure it's hard to confuse an ace with a face card.

I feel like I'm taking 'Reality fluctuations 101' right now. Like this is the hurdle I  have to get over; figuring out how to get things more stable --- before I move onto other levels. I hope to be able to nail a card from the full deck eventually. Frank's advice is to more tightly rein in my emotional load on the experiment. Maybe that will happen with time - as each trial gets under my belt maybe I won't feel so invested in it.

Anyway - your approach sounds good. Do you have trouble seeing when you're out? I put the card under a nightlight. You might want to make sure the card is a fair distance from your body.

Patty

Hi Lapsilap,

Well, it depends on your expectations.

I had my first less than a week after starting to try. So actually, I wouldn't say that it is 'hard,' it just isn't 'on command' most nights for ME at any rate. but it isn't like unnattainable. Give it your best shot, just like everything else in life.

I do the card thing too! Fun stuff.

Patty

Hi Comus,

I am really glad to hear that you are having a better day today.

Just wanted to let you know.

Patty

Hi,

A couple things -

I don't know if you want to flow with the hypnogogic imagery or not. That sounds like you are letting your mind wander.  I don't know.  Whenever I realize that there is hypnogogic imagery, I try to get my mind back to empty full alertness, no images.  The imagery feels like I am losing mental alertness. (But this is one area I have not played around with. Maybe Ralph is onto something.)

quote:When i feel my training is done, should i simply call it a night and start to go to sleep in the position i was training in??

"calling it a night" means you are deciding to sleep. That's what you have to avoid. You have to maintain firm intent to stay conscious.

Your body will have its own ideas and will eventually konk out. If you are maintaining intent to stay conscious, you will keep snapping back to alertness. If you "call it a night," you might not have the snapback after your body truly falls fully asleep.

During periods where I have most success, I am 'training' all night (but I don't call it that. I just enjoy trance and messing with altered consciousness, and watching myself fall asleep is fun.)   Which is to say, all night I am intent on staying alert, occasionally flowing energy through the system, keeping the mind blank and allowing the body to relax into sleep separately from my consciousness. (which manifests as the jerky snapback thing.) I sleep fitfully those nights and it might take a few such nights to have an OBE.

I hope people with other perspectives chime in -  But I am also happy that you have a new avenue to explore. Yes, plan on staying in the guest room all night, and stay tranced. And allow your body to fall asleep there.

Disclaimer: It might not be the same sort of OBE that people claim to have from a different approach. I am not sure. It is what works for me. I hope to expand into more controlled approaches over time.  Oh yeah - DON'T FORGET to keep your first outing brief.  According to Robert, you might not remember it otherwise!  Which would really be a bummer after all your hard work.

Patty

Hi RM,

I think I read somewhere that 80% of projections are from a sleeping state. So no, it's not every time, or for every person I guess. Frank sounds like he has a different approach, his phasing in thing.  I really think it is individual, and to be honest, when Jeff started posting I was surprised to see how similar his approach is to my own (because I've read accounts from dozens of people and usually they sound really individual.)

You are allowed to play around with it - like give yourself a week or two of trying a new variation and see if it works.

And again, my personal goal *isn't* to fall asleep. My personal goal is to stay awake.  But I know that it won't be until my body shuts down that I will get out, and so -  I let my body fall asleep while my mind keeps jerking to alertness. It sounds like that is going on with you and the hypnogogic imagery. So --- do you usually give up and go do something else or do you usually fall asleep?  If you usually fall asleep, do you do so thinking "I'll try again another time?"  I often try at night before bed, so that I know my body will konk out on me - and as long as I don't give in to the VERY SEDUCTIVE ALLURE of a good night's sleep, (which is what often happens) , then the snap back which you already describe re: hypnogogic imagery will kick in after you fall asleep.

I read somewhere that projecting from awakefulness (rather than from sleep) allows much more control. I don't really know how you can distinguish deep trance from sleep-with-consciousness-returning, though. but I kind of watch your posts and see if you make it with your more controlled attempts.  I would LOVE to have a controlled light trance -> deep trance -> conscious OBE without any breaks in awareness. Man. Think of the possibilities.  I'd be so much less worried about whether I was dreaming the whole thing, etc.

Anyway - I hope more folks with varying opinions chime in ----

Patty