Messages

Congrats. Clear and lucid description of the OBE.
I always like the floating part. When you get  out of body on a future projection try to go outside and take flight over your house. Flight is an experience nearly impossible to put into words.  

Right. Some clear and coherent ideas in this thread. Also some very intriguing theories.
I'll try to put some of this together in a simple and straightfoward way. Some of it will be a repeat of what's already been posted. Please bear with me.

Start with sleep paralysis.
Fuse posted
                    I dont know if someone already said this but sleeping paralysis occurs to stop a person acting out a dream, or when they are in a deep sleep.

Sillwater replied
                     Yeah, I and others have mentioned it around six times, but thanks for pointing it out again, it is one of the key ideas to remember here.

Exactly right. Sleep paralysis prevents people from acting out their dreams. Example --- the man or woman who dreams they are flying will Not jump out of a second floor window.
So the person who is able to control their dreams, or can induce a lucid dream or happens to awaken with sleep paralysis can use that mind awake body asleep (and paralyzed) state to induce an out of body experience.
That seems a very clear and simple link between sleep paralysis and OBE, that is --- sleep paralysis can be used as a tool (for lack of a better word) to induce an OBE from a dream or near dream state of consciousness.

One point of disagreement. I do Not believe that all dreams are OBEs. Nor do I think that dreams = OBEs. Dreams, IMHO, are subjective in that all the imagery, action and senses are created by the dreamers' mind/brain and occur inside the dreamers mind/brain.
OBEs are objective in that the OBEer has effectively separated their consciousness (I use the term astral/ethereal body) from their physical body. They are outside their physical body while OOB (that is, after all, what the term "out of body" describes). What they perceive while OOB is objective reality. Yet the person may likely not accurately perceive everything while they are OOB. Perceptions are subjective in that perceptions are not always accurate and nobody can perceive everything everywhere all at once. So mistaken perceptions are part and parcel of the OOB experience. Unfortunate but unavoidable. Especially because most of us are all too used to relying on the 5 physical senses (used in the 3 dimensional world) and are mostly inexperienced at using the 4 dimensional (or 5 or 6 or whatever dimensional) senses that are needed for perception while out of body.

Nay
I don't Want negs.  :confused:
But sometimes while OOB I encounter them.  
Not many times but only a few times.

My point is that if this happens to me then it surely must be happening to others.
Granted this is not something to encourage or dwell upon. I certainly do not start an OBE looking for trouble.
Those who do experience hostile entities often find it hard to report the experience and to discuss it. It is even harder when people flat out deny that this sort of thing can happen. I don't believe Every report about a malevolent spirit but I do keep an open mind about it.  

Using an energy shield as a psychic defense is one idea that others have successfully used before.
To find out more I suggest visiting AstralSociety.org and taking a look at the energy working forums. Or do a search there for the keywords pyschic shield.

Negative.

Abort Operation Lettuce.

I repeat Abort Operation Lettuce.
There has been a security breach.

Authorizing Operation BrainLock
Operation BrainLock will be designed to catch any spies, moles and infiltrators. Also to expose any governemnt monitoring of these communications. Until this operation is successfully completed Nobody is authorized to think ANYTHING.

Communication over.

James S
Just a thought on the idea of a soul that 'de-evolved'.
It seems that most of the thinking about spiritual growth and enlightment believes that the path to a higher soul is mostly straight and linear. In otherwords continue to do good deeds, live right, help others and learn and a person will evolve into a higher being.
That works for many, no doubt, or even most. Yet for at least some others the path to spiritual enlightenment is not so linear. Apparently some souls do de-evolve before they can progress. (I will think positively here and state that all souls will eventually progress (though I am far from certain about this.))
So the de-evolving soul could be de-evolving for any number of reasons. For many it will only be a temporary detour. They will learn their lesson(s) and not repeat the same mistakes next time.
For others, however, well perhaps some of those 'others' are now
termed negs. :question:  

Selski
You are right on the mark with your comments :exclamation:  
Only the person who had the experience can truly tell if it was a RTZ (ethereal) OBE, or an astral projection, or a dream, or a lucid dream, or hypnagogic visuals or something else.
I have read literally hundreds of posts in various websites that all asked the same question ---- (more or less)--- "Was this an OBE or a dream (or -----fill in the blank)?". Honestly I wish there were a FAQ devised Just For This One Question. Especially so because I would like to respond to each post but answering every post that asks this question would take Forever  :exclamation:

This has happened to me many years ago. Back then I used to keep a dream journal. The funny thing was that when a dream repeated itself and I did Not write it down then the dream would keep repeating. But as soon as I wrote a repeating dream into my journal then I would never have that dream again. Even if the dream was pleasant and exciting it would not repeat once it had been recorded in writing. :question:  :question:  :confused:

I could never figure out why that appened :question:

Out Of Body Experience # 65 a,b and c
Vibrating Out Of Body
Monday, July 3, 2006
   About 4 Am I awoke from dreamless sleep into the mind awake, body asleep state of hypnagogia. I began to feel minor vibrations running up and down throughout my body. After a few minutes I could increase the strength of those vibrations. Also I became aware that a full and deliberate out of body experience was now possible.
   So gradually I increased the strength of the vibrations until my astral/ethereal body separated from my physical body and rose upward a few feet. Full separation was somewhat difficult and took several minutes to achieve. Because of the physical setup of the room I could not use the 'roll out' method (as the bed is wedged between 2 walls). Instead I had to rise up vertically which is something that I normally do not try.
   Now I was fully separated and out of body and was beside the bed. This felt great ! Unfortunately I could not see very well, there was little light in the room and my general consciousness was somewhat dim and murky. I was not confused but could not perceive my room (an RTZ projection) with much accuracy.
   I floated away from the bed up to the ceiling. There was some difficulty moving about. Floating was slow and sluggish. My mind was acutely aware of, and quite excited by, the OOB state. I moved around the room for a few minutes. I could see the bed but could not make out my physical body. Then I was back in the physical body in bed. Elapsed time OOB about 5 to 7 minutes.
   #65 b. Once back in bed I nearly fell asleep. The vibrations, now stronger than before, kept me awake. It took only minimal effort to increase the vibrations and effect another total separation of astral/ethereal body out of the physical body. Again I was fully OOB, for the second time in less than 30 minutes. Incredible I thought ! 2 out of bodys in only 1 night !! I had previously only experienced 2 OBEs in the last 2 years !!!
   I floated out away from the bed and looked back down at it. Again I could clearly see the bed but could only make out the dimmest outline of a physical body. This projection was rather short and only lasted 3 or 4 minutes. My mind was getting clearer but the room still looked dark and indistinct. (Note. I was only a few feet from my physical body during this entire projection. Perhaps Robert Crookall's 'body-veil state  (eg distorted perceptions) applied here.) Then once more I was back reintegrated into my physical body.
   # 65 c. The third projection was the easiest. When 'out' this time I immediately started to move along a wall away from the bed. For some unaccountable reason a song by Enya, 'Book of Days' (from 'Shepherd Moons') played in my head.
   This time I was confused as to the actual RTZ location. For some reason I believed this to be the place where I lived while in New Orleans. I came to a door and tried to go through it. Actually the door (in Pittsburgh) was open and I went into another room. Now I was thoroughly confused and thought I was outside a building in New Orleans when I was still inside a house in Pittsburgh. Even a nearby light did not help matters. The confusion caused an end to this projection a minute or so later. Total time OOB on this 3rd projection about 10 minutes.

Seriously though.
There are American government organizations that DO monitor the communications of citizens. Of course they are looking for information about Islamist radicals planning terror attacks.
And the governement intelligence agencies cannot a priori tell the difference between the average American citizen and a scheming Islamic radical. Which maybe is just as well. Because if those intel agencies could a priori tell the difference they would be employing ESP/telepathy/mind reading/mind control    :exclamation:    

'Heaven Can Wait ' by "Iron Maiden"

'I can't understand what is happening to me
This isn't real, this is only a dream
but I never have felt, no I never have felt, this way before

I'm looking down at my body below,
I lie asleep as if in a dream
Is it now, could it be, the angel of death has come for me

I can't believe that really my time has come,
I don't feel ready, there's so much left undone
but it'soul and I'm not gonna let it get away.

Heaven can wait, Heaven can wait, Heaven can wait
Heaven can wait til another day.

I have a lust for the earth below,
and Hell itself is my only foe,
but I've no fear of dying, I'll go when I'm good and ready

I snatch a glimpse of Light's eternal rays rays,
I'm in a tunnel and stand amazed,
at all of the people standing there in front of me.

Into the paths of rightnous I'll be led,
Is this the place where the living join the dead,
I wish that this was only just a nightmare,

Heaven can wait, Heaven can wait, Heaven can wait,
Heaven can wait til another day.

Take my hand,
I'll lead you to the promised l
Take my hand,
I'll give you immortality
Eternal youth, I'll take you to the other side
To see the truth, The path for you is decided.

My body tingles, I feel so strange,
I feel so tired, I feel so drained,
and am wondering if I'll ever be the same again.

Is this in Limbo, or Heaven or Hell.
Maybe I'm going down there as well
I can't believe my soul will drift forever,

Now I feel myself floating back down to earth,
Could this be the hour of my rebirth,
Or will I die or will I wake from dreaming ?

runlola
The first question was probably not worded very well.
I am asking how many total OBEs/astral projections you have ever experienced? This includes all spontaneous and all induced OBEs. Later, in question 7, I break it down into spontaneous and induced projections. The induced projections are further broken down into those that began either as normal non-lucid dreams or as lucid dreams.

Maybe a better first question would be --
As well as you can remember how many total OBEs (including both spontaneous and induced projections) have you ever experienced.?
a) 1 -5  b) 6 - 10 c) 11 -20 etc etc.....

James S
Your last post was thoughtful and well written. The point about religion is particularly well taken.

I do not intend to question your experience. I have no doubt that what you state is true - at least so far as to what you have experienced.
Understand that I also speak from experience. Even if I discounted the hundreds of reports about frightening encounters with malevolent discarnates I would still have my own experiences to rely upon.
Even if you are right in the belief that ALL souls come from one source of light and love - which I do not believe BTW - it still fails to explain why discarnates continue to take evil and malevolent actions. That is what I am trying to point out.
Perhaps, eventually, all malevolent souls will become enlightened and return to the One source. However, until that enlightenment occurs attacks by (temporary??) negative entities will continue.

About a week ago I started a thread about the idea of doing an OBE survey by email. Unfortunately NOBODY replied to that post.

:redface:  :question:

So anyway. Here is a rough draft of the email survey I am thinking about conducting. You do Not have to respond to any of the questions. I am looking for feedback as, for example, whether the right questions are asked? Is the survey too long or too short? If important questions are omitted then what are they?
Any response is welcome.
And, oh yes, if you want to answer any, or all of the questions then by all means do so.

Sample OBE Email Survey
1) How many OBEs have you had?
a)1- 5  b) 6 -10  c) 11 - 20  d) 21 - 50  e) 51 - 100
f) 101 - 250  g) 251 - 500  h) 501 - 1000  i) 1001 or more

2) Pre OBE separation sensations. Have you ever experienced any of the following right before an OBE? Check all that apply.
a) vibrations  b) sleep paraplysis  c) whirring, roaring or rushing noise

3) Perceptions and senses. Check all answers that apply.
3a) During an OBE have you ever had extra-normal/acute/special
a) sight  b) hearing  c) touch  d)  smell  e)  taste  f) any other type of sense perception
3b) During an OBE have you ever had subnormal/dull/distorted
a) sight  b) hearing  c) touch  d) smell  e) taste  f) any other type of sense perception.

4) Movement during an OBE. .
During an OBE have you ever moved about by the following methods ? Check all that apply.
a) gliding (about a foot above the floor or ground)  b) floating  c) flying (especially outdoors) d) teleportation or instant travel

5) State of Consciousness
During an OBE have you ever experienced any of the following. Check all that apply.
a) confusion b) excitement  c) elation  d) Joy  e) fear  f) agitation  g) annoyance

6) Locations visited while out of body.
During an OBE have you ever been in any of the following locations? Check all the apply.
a)your own house or apartment.
b) your family's house or apartment.
c) a friend's house or apartment.
d) your school or college
e) your job or workplace
f) your neighborhood
g) another country than where you live.

7) Have you every experienced any of the following. Check all that apply.
a) a spontaneous OBE (unplanned and Not induced)
b) a Deliberately induced OBE
c) an OBE induced by a brain wave generator or hemi sync tape.
d) an OBE induced during or just after a normal sleep dream.
e) an OBE induced during or just after a lucid dream.
f) an OBE caused by a violent collision or fall.
g) an OBE that occured while you were awake.

Familiar Persons.
During an OBE have you ever seen or met or interacted with any of the following familiar people? Check all that apply.
a) Immediate family member(s)
b) extended family member(s) (those you do Not live with)
c) friends  d) neighbors  e) students  f) co-worker(s)
g) boyfriend/girlfriend/fiance
h) Deceased or discarnate family member(s)
i) Deceased or discarnate friends

Another saying comes to mind. That is

"Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean someone is Not out to get you."

Maybe I'm listening too much to the Coast To Coast (Art Bell) radio show (a.k.a Conspiracy radio) :confused:

Then again If I close my mind to the possibilities out there I could become close minded.

Then again if I focus too much on the negative and destructive (whether physical or discarnate) I could be creating my own reality in a negative way.

Then again I really can't believe all those pyschics and mediums that claim there are ONLY good and helpful souls and discarnates.

Then again maybe I should end this post because I'm confusing myself. :confused:  :question:        

Hallo  
Both today and yesterday I tried to get into the topic
"[Poll] What Is Your Opinion Of Negs" in the
"Welcome To Psychic Defense" forum and could not do so. A small pop-up box appeared each time reading something like
"A communications error has occured. Please try again later."

This is odd because I can get into every other topic in every other forum in Astral Pulse except for this one topic.
I only mention this because I wanted to reply to a recent post in that thread from James S.
Is this topic locked for some reason  :question:
Perhaps there is a technical reason for this difficulty :question:
Could anyone shed some light on this matter :question:
Thanks
Grey

I want to answer your post with a well thought out and incisive response.
I can't do that though because the NSA (National Security Agency) is probably monitoring my computer right now.  

James
No person can completely disregard their own belief system, either in the physical or while out of body. So, yes, I do have a definite system of beliefs, and, yes, I unavoidably carry that belief system with me when I go out of body.
However, the question of whether or not 'negative entities' exist or not is not a question about my belief system. I do not go OOB looking for trouble, I go OOB looking for answers, knowledge and information. Yet I have had violent encounters with discarnates while OOB.
So maybe I could have avoided these confrontations. Maybe. Maybe not. The real issue here is that these violent and malevolent discarnates do exist.
It would be nice to believe that all discarnates/souls are intrinsically light and love. That is something that I pointedly do not believe.
There is a malevolent, evil force that transcends individuals just as there is a light and loving force that also transcends individuals.
It would be a mistaken assumption to assume that all discarnates are human souls. Many discarnates have never been human and will never be human.
Also perhaps you should question your own belief system.
You wrote
                   "  Our souls are "God stuff" - pure light and pure love."
and
                    " The worst that can happen to the soul of a serial killer is that it will then choose to incarnate into its next physical "host" with a set of what can be called "karmic conditions" - challenges to overcome in order to repay its own karmic debt and learn the lessons needed to achieve growth or evolution. "


Frankly, to me, that appears very much like theory. It May apply to some souls. It Does Not apply to every soul. To state that it does apply to every soul (whether human or otherwise) comes dangerously close to dogma.

Peace
Grey

runlola
I agree that most serial killers are extremely antisocial. Therefore you are probably correct in presuming that most may haunt secluded places after their physical deaths. But it would be too presumptive to believe that All deceased spectral killers will quietly stay in out of the way places. Some will haunt buildings in cities and towns. Some will become (or remain) malevolent in spirit just as they were in the physical.
That is all I was trying to point out. Some people who are destructive, violent, antisocial and, yes, homicidal, while living in the physical will stay destructive, violent anti-social and homicidal in the spirit/astral/ethereal. Yet some will see 'the light' and "pass over". Some will not and will stay "earth bound' as negative entities.

PS. I know this for a fact because I have had violent encounters with some of these beings on at least 2 OBEs. :exclamation:  :exclamation:

Between June 2002 and November 2003 I conducted an informal, unofficial internet survey of OBE and NDE reports. The findings were very interesting and I should get around to posting some of that data quite soon.
What I have been comtemplating for some time is a more organized and detailed (yet still informal) OBE survey done by email. The idea is to put together a short questionaire with between 10 to 20 questions and email it out to the members of Astral Pulse and other websites devoted to the phenomena of OBE. (Some of those other websites could be astralsociety, mysticweb and outofbody.co.uk.
I was going to email or pm a few select individuals about this idea but I decided to post here first and see what the feedback, response and-or interest would be. It is a feasible and do-able project but would require a sophisticated database to record the information and that is something that I am lacking at this moment.
Any replies are appreciated and any ideas welcomed.  :question:    :confused:  

From that description it appears that you had a classic first time conscious out of body experience. The strong vibrations are reported by Many people. Those vibrations often precede the separation of the astral/ethereal body from the physical body. The distorted and confusing perceptions that you report are also quite common during first time OBEs.
Congrats of that experience.  

It is interesting that you encountered an intelligent discarnate machine Selski. There are some other reports of OOB encounters with machines but they are rare.
You mentioned that it probably was not an astral JCB. What is that :question:
And why would you have any fear of an JCB :question:  :confused:

I agree that DXM has the potential to be a very powerful stimulant or catalyst into the OOB state. I have had several dynamic experiences with DXM. Here is the most dramatic experience.
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3718&highlight=dxm

In addition to the health risk I caution against DXM use for these 2 reasons -
1) I find that I am mostly out of control while on high doses of DXM (Anything over 800 - 900 mg). When I did go out of body I was totally unable to control where I went or what I did. This lack of control was both disturbing and counter productive to acheiving anything worthwhile during the OBE.
2) the psychoactive effects of DXM have steadily decreased with continued use. The second and third times that I tried very high doses I found the affects were not nearly as pronounced as the first (although I remained in control of both the latter experiences I did not have an OBE.)
The effects of most psychoactives/mind alterants vary from person to person so these limitations will not apply to everyone. Again DXM should not imoa be taken for a recreational high. But if taken be careful of the dose amount and DO NOT buy any tussin with acetominephin which could be VERY Dangerous.  :  :exclamation:  :exclamation:

Again I stress the importance of not placing too much importance on either 3 dimensional physical senses or any one's own " higher" senses during an OBE. Perceptions are not always accurate and therefore are subjective.
The OBE researcher Robert Crookall noted that many RTZ/here-now/ethereal OBEs involved very confusing and vague perceptions while a person was in close proximity to his or her physical body. People who were OOB in this state often reported a dense mist or fog and the inability to accuratey perceive their (physical) surroundings. Crookall called this state the 'body-veil' state of consciousness.
I suspect something similar (if not identical) is taking place during RTZ projections. Perhaps a persons "higher" OOB perceptions are interacting with, and being distorted by, their nearby physical body's energy field. Or perhaps various thought forms or non sentient energy fields manifest as objects in a familiar RTZ location. :question:    That might make sense because many people have reported being able to create their own environment while being out of body.

Right. Here's a question that anyone can answer. I am especially interested to see replies from both runlola and Nay.

Here is the Premise ---
A serial killer murders several people. The serial killer is finally caught. The serial killer is tried in court, found guilty and eventually executed.
So here's the question - if the serial killer's soul/spirit/astral body/ethereal body/whatever survives his physical death (exeution) is it reasonable to assume that he will continue his destructive existence as a discarnate spirit :question:

Follow up question. If the answer is yes then does or does not that discarnate then qualify as a negative entity???

The answer is painfully obvious to me. Yes to both questions.

Honestly I do not understand the argument that negative entities are all a product of a person's fears. If anyone believes in the objective reality of the out of body phenomena -as I must assuredly do - then they also must admit that malicious, destructive, immoral and downright evil discarnates exist in the out of body state. It is all very straightforward, very simple and very inescapable.

Even most of the great masters of the OBE have reported negative or hostile encounters with discarnates. (Robert Monroe described several frightening OOB encounters in his books.) All great religions teach that such malevolent beings exist. Also dozens, or even hundreds, of people continue to report such encounters (in forums like this one amoung others). Nonreligious, disbelieving skeptics have reported frightening NDEs that include terrifying attack by vicious discarnates (the hellish NDE). I myself have had 3 or 4 violent encounters with various discarnates during OBEs.

Yet some people just don't get it :confused:

They claim that it's no big deal. Or that there is no need to be upset or concerned. Some say that malevolent discarnates don't even exist - it's all in a person's head and is only a product of a person's fears

In many ways those people are as annoying as the skeptics who refuse to believe in the possibility of the OBE or the NDE. They discount hundreds or thousands of personal accounts. No doubt some reports are wrong and some people have been mistaken. But not everybody is mistaken.
Not every report is false, or a hoax, or a cry for attention, or a manifestation of personal fears, or an attempt to evade personal responsibility.
Some reports about neg entities are accurate because those entities do exist and people do sometimes encounter them while OOB.
Rant over.