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Okay, I admit to ignorance. I can't find anything on eye relaxation techniques. Help?

Steve,

Thanks for the info. I'm going to chase down Franks eye technique as soon as I finish here. The bead pillow idea may be worth trying.

As to what happens when we sleep, for me it seems my mind blanks out before my body does. The trick is holding on to that half-sleeping, buzzy stage you hit right before lights out.  

For me it is not unusual at all to dream from another perspective. It is extremely unusual for my dreams to be about me. Most commonly, I am someone else. The next most common is the omniscient viewer -- not a participant, just an observer. Strangely, the older I get the more often I have "me" dreams, where the protagonist is actually me. Can't say that I like the import of this!

However, the clarity of the dream, and the completeness, make me wonder if you weren't seeing something that has either already actually happened or may be going to happen. I would spend some time checking news stories of recent incidents. Also, can you think back and find anything that would give you a hint as to what the name of the mall, or any of the stores, etc. might be?

My clearest "psychic dream" was about a guy at work -- not someone I normally had a lot to do with and certainly not on my list of favorites (he was our office manager). I very clearly saw him on a farm, loading sacks of deer corn into a pickup with some other people. At one point he cracked his knee very solidly against the tailgate of the truck -- spent some time hopping and cussing. I had the dream on a Saturday night. It was such a clear dream that when I went into the office on Monday I dropped by his office to ask him about it. A friend of mine went in with me. He was sitting behind his desk when I came in and asked, "Did you by any chance hurt your knee this weekend?" He got up from his chair then and limped around the desk, saying, "Yes, as a matter of fact, but how did you know that?!" He told me he and friends had been unloading deer corn from a pickup at their hunting lease and he had hit his knee on the tailgate. When I described my dream his sole reaction was "You're sick, get out of here." Needless to say that was the last time we talked about it, but it was several days before he quit limping.

As in your case, what struck me about that dream was its clarity -- no question, no ambiguity. That's why I would encourage you to do some detective work and see what you can find out. Of course, you have been under some stress, and a mall bombing is a very likely scenario for a terrorist attack, so it could just be your subconcious "acting out" your anxieties. But still...

My recommendation would be to revisit the dream in as much detail as you can -- not about body reactions so much, but physical landmarks, time of day, type of vehicles, name on the bus, anything that would nail down the specifics. Then either post it here, or put it in a sealed envelope and label it. This could be just a very realistic nightmare, or a golden opportunity to document a psychic talent.

PassiveFist,

You ask some very good questions! In my mind, the issue hinges on the energy/electricity that powers our brain. Does that energy survive the physical death of the brain? Whether it does or not, I believe that is what folks call a "soul" and I believe every living thing has one, not just us ego-centric humans.

You are right when you say science has no good definition for consciousness, and has no clue as to what it actually is. There have been some interesting articles on the subject in Discover Magazine -- worth subscribing to!

My own theory is that the conscious part of us comes from the energy, which requires a functioning brain to manifest. The kicker is whether or not self-awareness remains in that energy when it is separated from the brain. It might, and we just might have no way of testing it. On the other hand, it might not, and the energy may just become a part of the great energy "sea" I have talked about before.

I base this on the Laws of Conservation of Energy and Matter - "Energy can neither be created nor destroyed, but only changed in form" (and the same for matter.) Those laws have been tested and proven in the science lab. That being the case, then our "essence", if it is in fact the energy I've mentioned, cannot be destroyed. Of course, that doesn't mean it remains sentient.  

Have you ever been put under anesthesia? That is one very weird experience!! There is no concept of time, no dreaming, no awareness of anything at all. It's just "click," nobody's home, then "click," you're back! That could certainly be what death is, and if so, spirituality doesn't enter into it -- New Age, Buddhist, Christian, or otherwise. But under anesthesia your brain is still functioning and the electrical energy is still there. The anesthesia has just blocked the link between the two. Like I said, interesting stuff!!!  

Steve,

Great posts, very informative! I can totally relate to the sudden sounds trashing any efforts to meditate, never mind the level! Sometimes it happens often enough that I am tensing up, just waiting for the next interruption. Then I can scrap that session!  

I also have problems keeping my eyes relaxed -- they want to try and focus on what I'm seeing behind my lids. I've had moderate success at keeping them still, but will try your idea and see if things improve.

One area (of many) I could use some help with is relaxing my neck and the base of my skull. I can get the shoulders to loosen up, but it seems no matter what I do, my neck is tense. Any ideas?

Eagle,

I wouldn't worry too much about the time thing. If Einstein couldn't figure it out we aren't likely to do it.    Major Tom is right about what he calls "blinking out." I will be well into a good meditation, then suddenly realize that my mind has been drifting in all kinds of directions without my noticing. It's not quite sleeping, just drifting. All I do is bring my mind back and start again.

Okay, that just about does it. I will keep this civil, but the sheep are feeding freely here, with their heads in the usual place!

First, I join in expressing my heartfelt sympathy to the victims of this latest act of savagery. Second, I really do not think this is the time or place for this dicussion, but I just started steaming as I read the posts. Does no one think anymore?!
Frank, do you realize what you are saying when you state:

...reflect on the horrors of the devices we have invented...

Are you really saying that it is not people using those devices who are inflicting the horror?    Do you actually believe the devices are themselves motivated to terror and killing? And are you also one of those who spout that there is "no good or evil" in the world? (No, this is not a personal attack and I am not trying to be insulting or rude.)

On an entirely different level we could debate the ethics of those people who invented the devices you mention. At some level, all destructive devices also have a constructive purpose -- building dams, nuclear power, assisting in gathering food for starving people, etc. And whether those humane projects actually result in good in the long run can also be debated. But my point here is that they are devices -- neither good nor bad in their own right. It is the people who use them who are evil, yes -- evil! Those people chose a course of action they knew would bring hurt, and they delight in it! Evil!! Please, let's stop listening to the "politically correct committee" and start calling a spade a spade. There is personal accountability and we are all responsible for our own actions. This business of "Oh the poor criminal, or the poor terrorist; we must sympathize with them because they've had a hard life. That's what makes them do what they do -- they're victims too." Gag me! Okay, sorry -- enough ranting. Can you see what I am trying to say?

And that's not even the focus of my post!  

Another one: Frank or Han said:

...U.S. government of which London is one of the most loyal satellites...

People, stop sounding like parrots and wake up! Can you not see that the story and history between America and Great Britain is one of the greatest examples of the triumph of love, respect, friendship, loyalty, etc. in the history of our world? Does anyone happen to recall a couple of little things like the American Revolution and the War of 1812? We were enemies, mates -- hated each other; took every opportunity to trade shots; nothing nice to say. Then it finally dawned on both sides that maybe we each weren't so bad after all. (I think it began over WWII, but don't quote me.) All right, granted; right now the U.S. is a "bigger power" than England. But that could (and will) change at any time really. And I like to think the new-found friendship will still be there. And I think that friendship is about more than money. If I'm right, England is far from the largest recipient of American money. So stop with the "satellite" crap already! At least give credit where it's due!

Now for the quoted article:

...the Spanish when they decided that the hopeless project in the Middle East was not worth any more Spanish blood...

About Spain caving in to terrorism, I can certainly see the logic in that. If my neighbor displeases me I will just destroy something he values. Then I'll tell him he must do as I require or I will do something worse next time. He capitulates if he is Spain, and I am his ruler. Who needs freedom anyway -- much better to be ruled by threat of violence!

...as were the French and Germans when they decided from the beginning that they had had enough war in the past...

Oh puuleeeeze! France and Germany had extremely lucrative financial reasons for not wanting the Iraq status quo to be disturbed. It was not their innate resistance to war. Come on sheep, we need to think a little bit here. Follow the money! And, let's see, was the U.N. also opposed to intervening in Iraq? Yes? Wonder why that could be... Naah, couldn't have anything to do with all the loot they were skimming from the "oil for food" fiasco... certainly not! Follow the money! Think!

Now that you have me labeled as a card-carrying Republican (Wrong!), let me cover a few more items.

Do I belive Bush deliberately lied about the WMD before we invaded Iraq? No. I believe both we and England were relying on the intelligence we had available at the time. Clinton used the same intelligence to tell us Iraq was into the WMD game and took his own military action to try and stop it. Do I believe Bush had his own reasons for going into Iraq? Yes. Again, if you want to know the truth, follow the money! I just haven't quite figured out what sum of money would be worth the lives of our soldiers.

I also believe most if not all of our military planners should be sent back to kindergarden for the incredible, unbelievable, (words fail me) total stupidity of their failure to plan for the aftermath of our initial attack! Did they think Saddam's army was going to just disappear? Did they have no clue there just might be a tiny bit of looting and civil disobedience after we moved in? Would the result of just a tad more prior planning have been a less horrific battle than is now taking place? I say yes! We should never have invaded Iraq without clear and definite goals and objectives. "Freeing the Iraqis" is a noble phrase, but "it don't put bread on the table."

As to the war on terrorism, neither the U.S. nor England are fighting it. We are not controlling our borders; we are not expellling known terrorist sympathisers; for crying out loud, we are educating terrorists in our schools! The war in Afghanistan I can see -- we knew there were terrorist training camps, supply dumps and God knows what else there and it makes sense to take them out.

I firmly believe we must fight terrorism. I, for one, don't like the idea of being ruled by a neighborhood bully. They aren't going to just go away. Those homicidal fanatics have been shooting at us for many, many years and part of what keeps them coming is the fact that we are letting them get away with it. Yes, even Bush -- have you seen anything from him against the Saudis? No, and not likely to, either.

Now, to Frank and Han: how would you stop the violence? It's a serious question -- if we could come up with a rational plan perhaps we can find a way to make it heard.

I understand your aversion to violence and I share it. And I abhor the suffering of innocents -- though I think we may have a different idea of who exactly are those "innocents." At the same time, I'll go back to the very old rabid dog comparison. You cannot reason with a vicious, fatally diseased animal. It's him, or you.

Ghandi used non-violent resistance to defeat the British in India some time back. It sounds good. Then realize that he lost thousands of his followers killed and likely many more injured before his cause prevailed. And he was dealing with a relatively humane government. Had he been dealing with those we face, his cause, and his people, would simply have been exterminated. Anyone read the original War of the Worlds? That's who we're fighting. They don't want to negotiate, they don't want peace. They want us dead -- end of story. Only this time, I don't think a common cold virus is going to come and save us.

So I repeat my question -- how would you handle it?

I'm in Fort Worth.

Hello, fellow Texans!!!

Almost Solid,

It was just a brief reply to a question I had asked, but it struck me as being pretty logical. You know how some things just resonate inside and you know it has value.

Almost Mrs. Murphy,

I am of two minds about posting this. A part of me says I should be trying to encourage you with sympathetic words. Another part of me says "What words? There is nothing that will make this better." You do have my deep sympathy.

I can tell you it would be no easier if you had been married fifty years. I met a lady last week who lost her husband two months ago after 25 years of marriage. She was very collected and calm, but her whole demeanor shouted "I'm lost, where's the rest of me?" Nope, it wouldn't be any easier.

Eventually the tears will stop, it's just your body's way of trying to cope. I've heard people say that crying makes you feel better. I have not found that to be true. I can say that, over time, you will be more able to live with the grief--you just find a place to put it.

I can give a word of partial reassurance. If it's true that there is more than this physical existence, then it won't matter that in this life your fiance left at one age and you at another. Your energies, your souls, will be ageless and you will see each other again. If the astral is real, that should also hold true.

Frankly, I'd say those are really large "if's." But this is not the place to discuss my philosophy and perhaps it's something for you to hold onto.

When you can (and don't worry about when people say you "should") look at other parts of your life and see what you still have that is valuable. Treasure that, and remember him.

Hi Milk,

Welcome to a fascinating forum! From my own experience I know you don't have to be asleep to project. While "out" I am not aware of feeling anything in my physical body. I can see it, but "I" am not there, so I can't say what may be going on "back home."

However, I also believe Kodemaster is right. The trick is in the words "at will." I have so far been unable to remember going OBE when I decide I want to do it. My conscious, waking OBE's have been totally spontaneous and occur through no actions of mine.  

Aunt Clair raised a point in another topic that we all very likely OBE frequently in our dreams -- it's just that we can't remember it when we wake. That made so much sense that I am trying now to develop ways of memory control while dreaming. What the hey, it may work!  

Kodemaster, your comments are also encouraging. If perseverance is the key, perhaps I can one day reach my goal of getting out consciously whenever I want, waking or sleeping!

Telos, I would recommend, if you're serious, that you study Gregg and become proficient in it. That will solve your problem, but will also quite likely take at least two years. That's if you study hard.

I've developed my own shorthand style for taking notes for my own use, but I couldn't begin to tell you it would work for you. Have you gone to college? That's where my "classical Gregg" was introduced to the serious lecture circuit and became what it is today. (laughing!!!)

Good luck, and I thnk you'll develop your own style after awhile.

Joe_Oh,

Don't know if you're talking pizza delivery or restaurant service, but a sneak-peek at part of your problem surfaced when you put quotes around valued. What you feel is what you project -- and what will be picked up by your customer. You can't visualize your aura into being any different than what it actually is, and that will certainly be reflected in the tip you get -- or don't get.

I can give examples. When we eat out and the service is perfunctory but barely adequate, we will leave 10% to 15%. If the server projects the attitude that we are there just to bother them and the service reflects it, they get nothing. They have given no service and have made our special occasion less enjoyable.

On the other hand, when a server appears to genuinely enjoy what he or she is doing and takes pride in doing a good job, that attitude also shows. I know sometimes this may be put-on, but it makes our outing more pleasant anyway. (Good actors also deserve reward!) These folks will get at least 20% to 25%, plus we will always find the manager and comment on the special dedication of that server. I could give some stellar examples of this type of person, but there's not room here.

Now as to pizza delivery, I can't speak frome experience. At a guess however, I'd say that's not a career where you would expect generous tips. I think when we order in at work we add 10 to 15% and leave it at the front desk. There's nothing that person could do to influence that tip.

Halfphased has given you some excellent pointers. Hint, hint!

I do agree that customers can be rude, demanding and insensitive. I've seen it more times than I could wish. But they are still the exception and not the norm. I'm afraid if I were the server in one of those situations, I would be the perfunctory, mechanical type and just wouldn't worry about a tip. Reaming them out would accomplish nothing and you just have to hope they will learn their lesson in some other way.

I've been thinking about buying a Tarot deck for awhile now, but the one I want is just a little more than I want to pay. I've also looked at crystal balls, but in the US they are expensive! (Note the common thread here -- I'm tight with a dollar!)  

One thing I was told by a shop keeper was the way to tell a glass sphere from true quartz crystal -- put a hand on them and feel. The glass sphere will have a temperature close to the ambient room temperature. The real quartz sphere will be distinctly cooler! It's just a property of the stone, but I hadn't thought about it -- pretty neat!

There's a store called Earthbound (I think) in the US that has various other types of spheres for reasonable prices. I almost bought one the last time I was in there but didn't have enough time to properly dither. I'll go back one of these times and pick one up.

I agree with what folks have been saying; the value of these tools is just to allow you to focus on your own intuition.

Mustardseed,

I love the analogy! Our bull was "Beau" -- a red Beefmaster. And yes, he could be mighty crabby! Do I take it that you are a country boy?

On the subject of fear and fearful things, that would be a major reason to know whether the astral is inside or outside of "us."

If we do not actually exit during an OBE, then all the things we see, whether good or bad, are aspects of our own nature. That being the case, nothing can harm us during an OBE.

On the other hand, if we do actually "exit," then the astral is outside of ourselves, and so are the spooky things. If that is so, then there could be harmful things/beings "out there."

Interesting...

SoM,

Kind of sounds like you are starting to put Bloodsong's method to the test -- see how being hurtful to someone else feels, I guess. And no, you don't sound arrogant, just rude.

I don't know Tom except thru this forum, but his posts have generally been well-thought and logical. The advice he is giving you here is valid. While meditating, you certainly can "just be." While meditating, expect nothing, and accept whatever comes, calmly. Over time answers may come to you. If you are genuinely looking for the ultimate, universal, TRUTH, that's the only way to achieve it.

And I will say absolutely without reservation that yes, "Truth," "Good," and "Evil" exist. The most obvious truth in your Zebra example is that Zebras are black-and-white. A geneticist or zoologist could very likely tell you which was the base color. If you ram your hand forcefully into a hard object, your hand will hurt. That's truth. As to its being based on the experiences of our body, that's all we've got.

I'm going to be pretty direct with you now, and apologize if it offends. You opened the door yourself with your own comments. In your posts I see you eagerly accepting advice that is practically guaranteed to lead to nothing but grief, then saying thanks but no thanks to advice that could actually be helpful. If your posts are made in jest, then "no harm, no foul" and all I'm wasting is some typing. If you are making serious inquiry, then you need to take a good look at yourself. You come across as very young, upset and angry that life isn't handing you everything you want on a silver platter. Here's a news flash, life's not fair and it doesn't operate by our rules. (I'd be way richer if it did!) You also seem to be looking for someone to make your judgment calls and decisions for you. There are people willing to do that, but what happens if you don't like their decisions -- back to square one.

If you are looking for an emotional rudder or as good a roadmap as we are likely to see, there's no shortcut. It's called study and meditation. Of course, there's been a few million people on that path ahead of you, and lilkely as many more behind, but there's always room for one more. And if you never find the ultimate TRUTH, at least in the search, you had a purpose. There's something to be said for that.

Knightlight, I can empathize with trying to slow down some of the images. I will mention hieroglyphics below, and I tried to will those to slow down -- no good, they just came as they wished.

Frank, I asked a question in another post that I really am curious about, so am taking the liberty of posting it here:

And let me ask one more, if I may. I was on a plane and decided to do a bit of meditation. I never went to sleep (impossible with all the noise). But after a few minutes I began to see images of Native American hieroglyphics. They came slowly at first, one at a time, then started speeding up and crowding together, then gradually trickled back down until they stopped. It was exactly like turning a water faucet slowly on to full force, then just as slowly back off. I am assuming we flew over what I call a "place of power," sort of an energy vortex. There's another one of these in Muir Woods (another story). Can you give me your impression of what that might be?

First, do you believe there are energy vortexes or "places of power"? If so, are those generated by us -- internal, so to speak, or are they physical phenomena?

As to what Knightlight and I are seeing, the most interesting part is the similarity -- if they are random, the odds of us seeing the same type of portraits would be really small. Shinobi also seems to see similar images, so that's three, just so far. Wonder how many others see the same thing? Of course, this could just be that we are activating the same areas of our brain and thus would naturally expect similar images. Hmmmm...

Last night I was able to do a brief meditation. At first I was seeing Greco-Roman images, long lines of statues, then fuzzy head views from the same period. Then I saw a black area and was able to send my vision through it. There was another one beyond it, but looked sort of like a tunnel. I went into that for a time, and was looking at what could have been some kind of star field when Hubby came in wanting to turn on the TV. End of session.   You guys are giving me the boost I needed to get me back into regular meditation. Thanks!  

Runlola, good job on your research! My only question about that experiment is how precise the measurements could really be at that time. Even in the late 60's it was incredibly hard to get an accurate measure of small weights. I know -- I was a lab technician back then and had to precisely weigh very small things. We even had to put them in closed boxes to keep air currents from messing with the weight reading. I can't accept MacDougall's claim as to the precision of his instruments.

However, today we have the ability to weigh things very accurately, plus hospital beds that give digital readouts of a person's weight (I'm not sure how close the tolerance is on these.) Add to that the fact that many facilities are set up to do sleep studies and we have the groundwork for a modern day experiment.

I tend to agree with Han, though, and would bet the experiment would show no results. Does electricity have weight? How about magnetism or the force of gravity? I believe our soul, if such there be, is composed of energy similar to those, and therefore, won't weigh anything. I do believe it dissipates when we die, but where it goes I do not know.

Mrpete,

sometimes have a lot of trouble getting to sleep - sometimes i will go to bed at 10.00ish but still be up at 1.30ish. Would this affect astral projections?

My answer would be yes. Generally, if you have trouble getting to sleep it's because your mind is still active and reviewing the day's events -- or sometimes anticipating the next day. When your mind is not still you are unlikely to OBE. It's sort of like trying to listen to a pin drop in an active machine shop!

Han is right, there are no set rules. So rather than concentrating so hard on mind awake/body asleep, you might try clearing your mind. Just close your eyes, relax everything (including your eyes) and just watch. Anytime a thought intrudes, say to yourself, "I can't fix that now. I will pick it up again in the morning." and just nudge it away. It sounds like that might help.

Knightlight,

I thought I would add one more comment to my last post. Here is an excerpt from my dream log for May 19th:

05/19/05
I am still not seriously meditating, and have not seen my mental portraits for some time now. I do seem to routinely see scenes on that "behind the eyelids" screen before sleeping, or when I manage to find time to do a meditation. They are almost always interesting, full scenes, but no story behind them. I just see it, nothing explains it.

Does that sound similar to what you were talking about?

Knightlight, this is freaky! The views of people you talk about is what I call my "portraits." I used to see them quite often, in fact, whenever I sat down to meditate. I've been goofing off on the meditation however, and haven't seen them as often just lately. I also see landscapes, sometimes with people, sometimes not. I saw a herd of horses once that was pretty impressive -- I was right in the middle of them and they didn't mind a bit.

The portraits I see seem to be in the Elizabethan (or Rennaissance) eras and are from the waist up. The detail is exquisite, every nuance is there, including facial features, clothes, etc. They have never reacted to my presence and just sit there. I'll see one person for a few seconds or so, then that one will fade away and another will appear. I've seen one old man who seems dressed in more modern clothes, maybe the 1940's or so, plus at least one Native American. I never try to hold them; I just let them appear and fade as they wish.

This could be pure coincidence, but I really wonder. You couldn't be more specific in describing what I see. Just wild!  

9981, it sounds like you are doing just fine! The only advice I would give is to practice relaxing your physical eyes and just moving your perception up to your third eye. This is not easy, but it seems that whenever my physical eyes start to get involved, I lose whatever picture I was seeing.

"Brain farts"? Nope. That would be when your hand reaches for a glass and knocks the glass over instead. Everything we are trying to accomplish through meditation is mental. We are asking our brain to let us think in different ways. So yes, we are going to experience some unusual events. I'm not ready to try and put a label on what's happening yet. There's a guy named Stuart Wilde who says it's pretty common to see this type of thing, and recommends just staying passive and taking notice. I can't tell you what would be most effective, because I have been unable to OBE at will so far.

It sounds like you have a good system going, just keep on truckin' and see what develops!  

Wow, Beth!

You gave me goosebumps!   I have had the feeling you describe only once, at Muir Woods. Just as you describe, the feeling of incredible joy was overwhelming!

There is truly nothing like it! The down side? Well, now that I have experienced this, just being here on this plane, 'stuck' in this physical body, can really be a drag sometimes. I have experienced a lot more frustration with being here, and sometimes I can even become a bit depressed and 'homesick'.

I totally agree with you! People laugh, even here, when I talk about being homesick for a place I've never been, but you have hit the nail on the head. If I ever do succeed in consciously getting out of this body, someone will quite definitely have to force me back in! There is so much more than this!!  

Thank you for your post, you really have made my day brighter.

Oloxio, that sounds like a fantastic experience!   My own feeling was more of regret that I was unable to get where I really belonged.

Frank, thanks for the reply. That makes sense, and seems to tie in with a comment "I" made while I was behind myself.    I was not pleased with my body at the time, and when my point of conciousness changed, the non-embodied "I" said: "It's only a biological machine." The unstated impression given was that I should already know that. Very strange experience!

Let me try an analogy. What I hear you saying is similar to, for instance, looking really, really closely at an insect. You are focusing in as closely as you can, trying to see every detail of that insect. While you're concentrating on the bug, your field of vision does not encompass the garden, or the sky, or the street nearby, etc. All those things are still there, you just aren't aware of them for a time. I know it's not exact, because there would still be a "you" point of conciousness, but is that sort of what you mean?

And let me ask one more, if I may. Again, this is a repeat, so forgive me in advance.    I was on a plane and decided to do a bit of meditation. I never went to sleep (impossible with all the noise). But after a few minutes I began to see images of Native American hieroglyphics. They came slowly at first, one at a time, then started speeding up and crowding together, then gradually trickled back down until they stopped. It was exactly like turning a water faucet slowly on to full force, then just as slowly back off. I am assuming we flew over what I call a "place of power," sort of an energy vortex. There's another oen of these in Muir Woods (another story). Can you give me your impression of what that might be?

TryingOBE, that's exactly what I want if I can ever consciously project. I have all manner of tests in mind for when, and if, I can get into the RTZ.

Nothing can possibly occur outside of ourselves

Frank, that thought raises a huge question for me. I know I've beaten this experience to death in other posts, but it's all I've got, so bear with me. I have had one instance of OBE, involuntary, while I was wide awake and standing up. I wasn't sleepy at the time. But all at once "I" (my point of consciousness I guess) was behind and slightly above where the physical me was standing. Everything was crystal clear and perfectly normal, except for me! There is no doubt in my mind that I was in one place and my body was in another. Are you saying I wasn't really out of body? Color me confused!!

Gandalf, what a fantastic experience!  

It's hard to know whether your fear reaction was unfortunate or not. What if you had gone on to that light -- would you have been able to come back when you wished, or would your physical body have died?

I hada similar experience a very long time ago. I was awake, lying down, and concentrating on staring at a bit of reflected sunlight on the wall. You may have noticed if you stare directly at such a spot (not so bright it hurts your eyes), everything just starts disappearing -- the whole world just becomes shining white. Well, that began happening, and all of a sudden, in the center of the whiteness, a hole appeared. I could see a row of hospital type beds lining a large veranda, and beyond that was a green, park-like lawn, blue sky, and fluffy clouds. My viewpoint was from one of the beds and I could see nurses/attendants starting to turn and come toward me. They were smiling and very pleased that I was recognizing them. Then my eyes got so tired and dry I had to blink and it all disappeared. I tried to do it again, but my eyes wouldn't cooperate. I had the distinct impression that, in that world, I was a patient who was showing signs of coming out of unconsciousness. Like I say, I wasn't asleep.

I've tried many times since then to repeat the process, but have never been able to keep my eyes focused long enough. I can get the whiteness to gather, and sometimes get the feeling that those people, and that world, is right there waiting for me. But I always have to blink before it becomes thick enough to let the hole show through.

I have also thought about what would happen if I ever do succeed in fully waking up on that world. Same as your experience, I don't know if I would be able (or want) to come back to this reality.

Ivanda, yes, it seems like you're right there in the club with us. I remember feeling afraid as well, and that may have some bearing on why I couldn't refocus and hold it. But if what I saw through the white light was any indication of what's actually there, it doesn't seem bad. Of course, if I "went through" and got out of that hospital setting, who knows what that world would be like...