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Hi Wisp,

thanks for sharing your dreams...

There was a dream that looked premonitory, I posted it under the title Premonitions in the middle east. One part of it was very direct with no symbolism, just seeing the things the way they are. The other part was more difficult to interpret. See the details there, in the same forum as the one here.

Cheers.

Azai, everyone knows what xxx stands for... don't you?

Here is the best of best of the XXX sites:

http://xxx.lanl.gov/

you can click on it, don't be shy.. you'll have a real surprise to discover what xxx stands for...

Just another detail, when you wake you should not even open your eyes. When I tried in that manners, it was a question of a few minutes to OBE!!! but if I go to the bathroom, then it does not work for me. I have to either drink less in the evening or go to the bathroom in the middle of the night, so that in the morning it does not bother me. With the age it does not get better, but I am optimistic... []

Those who have reached a higher level of OBE, like in NDE for example, have encountered the beings of Light that have unconditional love and they all say that is what it is all about: unconditional love. The love that Jesus was talking about, not the sexual love and attraction for the other sex. This unconditional love is the love we have for our father, mother, brother, sister, family members, very good friends, etc... and usually people realise about it when they have children of their own... then they love their children unconditionally the way they are ... that's where someone "closes the cycle of life, the cycle of love". Again, let me refer you to have look at the NDE site http://www.iands.org/ and check the public discussions, NDE narratives, etc... it is extremely interesting, with many testimonies of unvolontary OBEs followed by encounters with Loving beings of Light...

Hyper D,

Dreams are not a waste of time... by analyzing them you can understand your own self better. It is entirely normal to have dream with sex, incest, etc.. these are pulsions from your deep self, and that deep self does not know about rules but only about desirs and passions....

In your last lucid dream, your sister appeared to you all by herself, it is not that you make her appear at will, she just pops up like that and calls you. And that's when you decide not to go. Well that's fine that she  is calling you. She  represents the sexual pulsion that is in you, whether it is really toward your sister or not is another story and is not so important. It just means that you probably need a female presence next to you in the physical world (to put that in a nice language). Here the message is clearly a sexual pulsion that needs to be satisfied. This is the reason of this particular dream. Now lay  down and relax and let other dreams (whether lucid or not) come up and try to understand them as pulsions (desirs from deep inside yourself that do not know about rules, laws,...). Try to find what each dream situation represents, what kind of pulsions or what message. Often the message comes in pictures and is not straight. You need to analyze it and understand it in the context of your life. You can always post them here and people will try to help. Of course there are no professionals here and maybe you don't want to expose your personnal life here on the forum. Though it is actually very easy, as most of us are here as anonymous (incognito).

Cheers,
Shaman The Dreamer

Hey Wizard,

Happy Halloween!

I must admit that all the technique never really worked for me very well neither. The best way I found to OBE (and it worked twice) was to try in the morning. Basically you need to wake up all by yourself, without an alarm clock, without somebody shaking you or talking to you. Once you slowly drift out of the dream world and notice you are waking up, DO NOT MOVE your body! just lay completely still, be as calm as you can and try to concentrate on the feeling of sleep and dream, that feeling from which you just woke up. Then what best worked for me is to reach for the sensation of free fall: I just imagine I am falling from the sky, a plane a tall building and never reach the ground. Or I imagine I am looking down from a huge tower and feel the palms of my hands and my feet almost like sweating with some kind of tingling, as if vertigo was taking over. It is that sensation of free fall / vertigo / floating that triggers the vibrations. Then the vibrations engulf all my body (whistling in the ears - buzzing sound) and when they are the strongest I start getting up out of my body, or rolling to the side out of my body. The only problem I have is that often in the morning when I wake up I first need to visit the bathroom and so it does not work, because the important thing is to stay in the same physical state that you were when you slept and just woke up. Also in eveyday life it is quite difficult and there are not many opportunities to wake up the way I described. Otherwise if I tried the usual technique  of relaxation, I need one hour to get the vibrations and it actually never worked.

It seems that there is a different technique for every single different person...

Good luck and let me know how it works for you.

Hey,

I though that afterall many of you might be interested in that study about NDE. Here is a good link to the study, it is mainly an interview:

http://www.iands.org/dutch_study.html#how_to_find

There are also some links there to the original article in the Lancet journal of medicine (one of them is in pdf format, you will need acrobat reader to open it  :   http://www.zarqon.co.uk/Lancet.pdf   )

Some dreams are exactly as you said Jilola, in that sens that only when we wake up we "recollect" the dream, remember as much as we can from it, sometimes it is not very much, sometimes it is a whole story/plot. However, other dreams are very vivid and their memory is exaclty the same as the memory of an event that has been lived, or even more vivid. In some of these dreams I remember myself very clearly acting exaclty the same way as when I am awake. And there the recollection is clear like crystal, with every little details. These dreams can even sometimes turn into lucid dreams, and then it is obvious that the dream is not just a "recollection" of something, but it is rather a memory "print" in our mind. In dreams often what also happens is that at a given moment in the "story" of the dream we remember something related to the dream itself. For example the dream is about someone walking in the street in the morning, and then suddently when that person (the actual dreamer) passes in front  of the facade of the movie theather (still in the dream) he/she remembers (in the dream) that he/she went the night before to see a movie there, eventhough in the dream itself the person did go to the movie the night before. So here we have inside the dream a recollection of an event that chronologically happened before but takes place later during the dream.  This kind of process happens quite often in dreams, as we recollect during the dream the memory of things that belong only to the dream world (and are not memories of actual event in the life).  These collections of memory inside the dreams are the ones that make the environment in which the dream takes place. These meomries inside the dream should not be confused with the memory of the dreams.

According to psychology, as we grow up, we create a barrier in our unconscious that stops some of our natural impulses. This barrier is actually created by itself as a little child is often told "do not do this, that..", so that inside the little mind there is a voice that will say not to do this or that and stops many of the "impulses" we have. At night, in our sleep while the barrier is weaker, our unconscious part of ourselve that generates the impulses will try again to cross the barrier, but this time the impulses will come in the form of messages: dreams. These are smart messages as they are disguised (with symbolism) and therefore they kind of cross that barrier. When we wake up that barrier becomes stronger again and not only stops the messages from the unconscious part of ourselves, but it also erases the memory of these messages/dreams. So that is one way we lose awareness, by having the memory of our dreams erased as we wake up.

I guess we would really need the comments of a professional on this, both from the point of view of the psychology as well as from the point of view of the biochemical in the brain.  The real question is that awareness is consciousness and the question becomes what is consciouness, where does it take place in the brain... and even today  
the answer has not been found. There was a very good article in a   professional journal of medicine called "The Lancet"  
( http://www.thelance.com/  the original article in the Lancet journal of medicine is here in pdf format, you will need acrobat reader to open it  :   http://www.zarqon.co.uk/Lancet.pdf   )
about NDE (near death experience) where a person (in a car crash) who had a flat electro cardio gram (no heart beat) for already a little while and was therefore completely unconscious (and clinically dead)  who, after being brought back to life, could tell the ambulance nurse where she had put some of his belongings  as he saw himself "float" above the scene of the accident.  In that article the researchers conclude with the remark that "where consciousness takes place is still a mistery" as it appears that it could even take place outside the body?? (here it is obvioulsy an OBE). Anyhow I think that article is very intersting. You can register freely to the Lancet online and then you can make a search on NDE (or any other topic) and find the article in question.  The main point that I tried to bring up here is that we do not know what exactly is consciousness and where and how it takes place.

I do think we need an additional forum for the normal dreams. This can come under the main topic of Dream, Lucid Dream, etc... and then have actually the Noraml Dreams forum and Lucid Dreams forum (the lucid dream already exists).

Shaman The Dreamer

Thanks Wizard,

the problem is that historically many patients that were diagnosed as schizophrenic had in fact multiple personality, and this is because the symptoms of one illness Multiple Personality Disorder (MPD) are similar to the symptoms of the other illnes Schizophrenia. So I took my information from an old source where some schizophrenic patients were diagnosed to have multiple personality. The thing is that this is a matter of definition in the field of Psychiatry/Psychology, and that only more recently the issue has come to the surface. This explains why many today are committing the same mistake as I did. It was a mistake from the psychiatrists themselves if I might say....a professional mistake.

Here is an extract from a professional journal on the mistake:

Furthermore, MPD may be misdiagnosed as some other disorder for a number of reasons. Because its symptoms also meet the criteria for many other disorders and because any of the various altered states in multiplicity may closely resemble any known disorder, MPD is frequently mistaken for schizophrenia, psychogenic amnesia, psychogenic fugue, borderline personality disorder, temporal lobe epilepsy, somatization disorder, post-traumatic stress disorder, depression, obsessive-compulsive disorder, substance abuse, eating disorders, and several others (Benner & Joscelyne, 1984; Bernstein & Putnam, 1986; Bliss, 1980, 1984, 1988; Boor, 1982; Coons & Sterne, 1986; Coons et al., 1988; Dell, 1988a; Franklin, 1990; Giancarlo, 1991; Greaves, 1980; Rosenbaum, 1980; Ross, 1989; Ross & Anderson, 1988; Ross et al., 1989a, 1989b; Solomon & Solomon, 1982). In fact, Putnam and his colleagues (1986) have found that an individual with MPD will, for an average of 6.8 years, be misdiagnosed and unsuccessfully treated before being correctly diagnosed as a multiple (Franklin, 1990; Giancarlo, 1991; Ross et al., 1989a).

In particular, Rosenbaum (1980) concluded that MPD is most often misdiagnosed as schizophrenia. In his literature review, Rosenbaum noted a sharp decline in the number of reported cases of the disorder in the early part of the twentieth century; this decline was attributed to psychiatrists' increasing doubts about the validity of MPD. Similarly, Rosenbaum (1980) noted that an important event in the history of psychiatry also took place around that same time period; the term "schizophrenia" was introduced to replace the use of the term "dementia praecox."

Rosenbaum's recognition of this coincidence led him to believe that, in addition to psychiatrists' new doubts about MPD, the introduction of the term schizophrenia had also played a substantial role in the decline of MPD diagnoses due to the prevalence of MPD being misdiagnosed as schizophrenia. He, therefore, conducted a review of clinical reports, psychiatric textbooks, and the Index Medicus to assess his hypothesis. The results showed that many patients with MPD had, indeed, been diagnosed and treated as schizophrenics (Rosenbaum, 1980).

... end of citation ...

Thanks to you too Beavis,

Melatonin is the chemical involved in the memory and its lost, the question of why we lose the memory of one thing rather than of another is more difficult to explain, and this is what I was refering to.

It is maybe a person who is modest enough to acknowledge that she/he knows for sure only one thing, and that thing she/he knows it well. It might be a person who do not want to commit her/himself about many things, things that have not been proven to be true. It is just a way of speaking, you should not pay that much attention to it. Sometimes a person knows a lot about only one thing, and it might be good to listen to her/him.

So I don't think you should take it too seriously.... that 's the domain of philology, the science of the language/speaking/thinking.

That's a great question, especially that I don't see there is an answer to it. I personally believe that we are probably most of the time aware, but that we are losing the memory of it. There was a similar posting not so long ago about "where does our consciousness go". Our awareness is really more of a "focus" kind of thing, in that sens that we focus ourselves to the moment we live, the person we are, our memories, etc...

The best example I can find to make you understand what I mean is with a very unusal case: schyzophrenia. A person with schyzophrenia has multiple peronnalities. At one moment that person is person A, with the character of A, the memory of A, the behaviour of A. At another time it is B, C or even many more others... When the schyzophrenic person is person A, he/she does not know anything about person B,C, etc.. A has a complete different memory of than B, C, etc... so that A does not know what B did, etc... That really means that what makes us ourselves with our personnality is the collection of memories that happened to us and that we remember and that affected us. In the dream world where we drift at night we are actually slightly different. We are a person a little different, as we do and live different things. Our consciousness shift from our awake personnality to the asleep personnality. In general both are very similar. However, there is a lost of memory between the two. We usually hardly remember our dreams, and in the dreams we often are not aware of things that normally we would be aware of. I am pretty sure (convinced) that we are always aware of everything, but that we are losing the memory of it (a little bit like the schyzophrenic case).

The real question is really not so much what happened to our conscious awareness, but more like what makes us what we are as individual person with a collection of memories. Our conscious awareness is visiting that collection of memories and identifying itself with it during the awake state of mind. During the sleep it visits the asleep part of our mind, and other regions of our consciousness, but it completely loses the memory of it, or more precisely the conscious awareness has not any more access to these memories, but only access to the collection of memories that makes us as indvidual person. As I wrote, comparing this with the schyzophrenic case makes us understand that much more easily than trying to see just 2 states of mind awake versus asleep, but it is basically the same principle: the conscious awareness has access to the memory, and it has to do with which memory it has access at one time (awake) and at another time (asleep) that makes us feel who we are and what we are experiencing.

Hyper D,

thanks for your posting. There is no way Saddam can physically go to the palestinian territories, the area is too well guarded by the israeli army... however, it might just indicate that Saddam is financially supporting the palestinians, and maybe even some of the groups that make all these attacks.

Cheers.

I suspect these things do not work (and it is not my first experiement) because we really don't know each other. The only time it worked was with someone very close that I knew very well. So even if it "works" it is not very effective as it would be with someone close that you personnally know.

I will continue trying to send you the a geometrical picture in color, so I will not let you know what it is, and if you happen to dream of an envelop with a picture or whatever, then let me know. So I'll continue
to think about sending you the geometrical figure.

Cheers!

don't be sorry [] Ceriel, I know it does not work for me... that's because I have to try harder, to concentrate and to relax... I never tried more than about 20 min, which is way not enough... People here are talking of up to 1 h of work before OBE, so I know. Thanks anyway for telling me that it is true, I have now one more reason to keep on trying... In the meanwhile, I am just dreaming....

Shaman The Dreamer  (ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ..... [|)] )

Sorry to be a bit late... but it took me a while to dig back into the old postings I did and realized I had missed some good answers. So I just wanted to thanks those who kindly shared their (prophetic) dreams here.

Shaman The Dreamer

(ps: I have now learned to subscribe to topics...)

Mistacorn I believe you are correct. The monkeys cleaning up their potatoes was also observed in a zoo in Russia (maybe even the Moscow zoo). Where one had learned to come to the water to clean up his/her potatoe, all of the other monkeys started learning from him/her... I never heard of the island however, it might have been set up much later.

As to the original posting: well the brain is capable of such miraculous things... Sure in dreams you can experience things that seem so real and so fascinating. I do not know if all of them would be the same if experienced while awake, but the brain is good at giving you a hint of it, or maybe at giving you something for your expectations.

The exact meaning of a dream is very much specific for a spcific dreamer, but there are things that can be said in general from which and especially about symbolism. There are patterns that come back in every dreamers and seem to be general... dreaming of a wild animal running after you is often a nightmare due to problem of digestion (heavy dinner, etc..); the bathroom dream is another one; In general they have a meaning, but the details and 'exact' meaning depends from dreamer to dreamer. These symbols can be used by the dreamer/psychologist team to find the exact meaning for a dreamer, they are like helping tools. The toilet person is true for many people, however what exactly the person needs to get rid of depends on the specific situation. It might not be true for some people, but it is the first "best guess" from which to start when one wishes to interpret and understand her/his dreams.

Don't worry, mutilation of genitals, as well as incest, and killing happen quite often in normal dreams. So as long as that in dreams, and not LD or OBE, that's fine. It is not very pleasant for sure. But i believe it happens to almost everyone, if only they could remember their dreams. These have meaning in psychology. The most common recurring dream that people have is actually even as silly, it is (in the dream) to look for a bathroom (toilet) and that the bathroom cannot be used, it is either durty, or filthy, or flooded, etc.. and the need to look for more bathrooms then take over in the dream, where there is a whole set up of an expedition which is to look for a bathroom.... the meaning of it is that the unconscious part of the person is telling that peron that she/he has to get rid of something in her/his life, and the way to get rid of things is to go to the potty  (in dream language). I got all that kinds of stuff in dreams, the thing is to remember the dreams.

Shaman The Dreamer

Tisha,

by the way, do you know that tisha'/tissa' means 9 in semitic languages (hebrew / arabic,..) ?

Your question, or more precisely, the precisions you gave us in your second posting, point to an evidence that is true thru history and all over the planet (unfortunately) that man is rulling the world by sheer force and that the woman has not yet be given the place she deserves, which is either next or higher than the place of man.

You could as well ask "why most of the managers are men?", why most of the cashiers are women? why there are still women not working and staying at home to take care of the children? SOme 50 years ago women did not have the right to vote in France, .. the world is still in the process of evolving, and only recently the issue of the place of the women has started to be considered, and only in a few societies... Most of the religions have been written by men for men, most of the rules of this world are so, and even in the US there are still so many things to say about it ..... Let's not even speak of the most common sexual abuse that the "boss" is "inflicting" to his female workers, ... but even when a women want to progress in her life, in her work place, in her study , in the academic, or wherever it is, IT IS THE SAME, there are men stading there in front not letting her pass... whether it is by lying, trishery, abusing, force... etc... How come most of the senator are men? Most of the governors are men? all the presidents of the uS have been men?

It has to do with the almost "archaic" form of the society, which has been that FORCE (mere physical force) is the one that decides for many things, whether in the family or at work or at school or in the university, etc....

So your question is back to the basic and as such the answer has to be digged out from there and the answer is obvious, that no matter if the woman is performing better than the man, the man is ruling the world... It will take a long time to change, we are still far from the ideal perfection... And that starts at the very begining, in the houses of people, with things such as why if both men and women work 40 h a week and make the same money, why the hell is it to the women to cook dinner? to take care of the children? etc... Even if there are exceptions to that, I believe that everything start there.

Exactly that,

The buzzing is the vibrations when they are in your ears... The vibrations always start in my ears and when they amplify (if they do amplify) and engulf me completely, then I know it is time for OBE, the door opens and you are there by moving, rolling out of your body, sitting up out of your  body, etc.... Though I did it voluntary only twice, both times it worked like that.

If it is pretty silence around you (while you are awake in your physical) then you can try to concentrate to hear that buzzing sound. It sounds like whistling, like a TV just turned on initially. When you concentrate on it and it amplifies, it sounds more like a picolo flute rather than the high-pitch of the TV ultra sound. In fact anysound at that moment will be heard as amplified. For example if while you are relaxing for your OBE, you start snoring, or making other little noises, then they will be amplified too and so much that they can be heard very loud as if not even from you... Anyhow, you can amplify the buzzing by concentrating on it and imagine you are in the middle of an orchestra of buzzing bees and concentrate on that. If you have trouble to hear the buzzing in the first place, then just put your palms on your ears and very gently slap your  ears... the buzzing will appear, then concentrate on it and don't let it go. However, personally, I haven't been able to start OBE only from the buzzing, if the buzzing was not there in the first place.  It was rather the other way around, the buzzing would amplify by itself and I would know it means the OBE is coming. I was never able to start OBE by amplifying the buzzing, though it is a good concentration exercise.

Sure NDE can happen, and happens, to everyone, does not depend on the age, but older people with health conditions, have more chance to have one. So on an NDE message board there are more messages of older people than of younger ones, though as you said, there are also children's NDE.

If you do have an OBE, it might be crystal clear or it might be with a very bad vision... but your consciousness and your memory should be as good as when you are awake.... if not better. And it is more vivid than dreams, because often you don't remember your dreams that well (though if you work on your dreams you can improve the memory of them).

By the way, just this morning, that is less than 3 h ago, as I woke up from my dream and the dream went away, I hear a nice music (a string instrument I think) and then on top of it a heard a few notes of flute (more the south american flutes, from Peru, etc...) and I had a picture of a landscape in front of my eyes. Then I got up. When I got up I could still remember very clearly the melody of the music I heard. So, again the hypnagonic state and the dream are two different things. There were many musicians/composers who woke up (in the night even) to write down the music they heard. I believe that would have been also the hypnagonic state. That is when I hear music, not in dreams.

Thanks Wizard for sharing your experience in details. I hope you are getting better with time. Maybe you would like to have a look at the NDe site I mentioned in the original posting up there at the top.

Did you happen to go to the "tunnel" and see the "Light"? Did you interact with other people there? Or your NDE was mainly that part where you had a crystal clear OBE? There are many NDErs who after the OBE, they live to a higher "plane", have a kind of "life review" and then even meet with the being of Light. This is usually when they are told "it is not your time, you have to go back" and that they do not want to go back, that they have a feeling of peace and Love and they do not want to leave that place that feels like "home". Eventually they wake up back in their body just after, and they rarely told their story, by fear that people would just think they had just a dream or an hallucination.

To get out of body due to a trauma is very frequent, my brother had one as a kid. But to see other things is not as frequent, or maybe the memory of it is erased and comes back sometimes after years... I, myself, once fainted due to dehydration, and suddenly I found myself like in a well with people at the top of it looking down at me. I could not see any face, only silouhettes, but I knew they were deceasesed relatives looking down at me and asking me if I was OK. That's when I woke up from the cold floor and realised what had happened.

As to you Beavis, did you go beyond the physical world in your OBE part of your NDE? Did you meet your guardian? Did you post your experience somewhere on this forum?

Shaman The Dreamer

It looks like this one is a fan... Yes! he is a winner!