Messages

when i have OBE's of the more realistic variety i tend to be prone to blindness and clumsiness, but what i don't know is whether that is because i read that that happens to people and so that causes it to happen to me, or there is something legitimate about it that everyone experiences even if they know nothing of OBE.

as for the sounds...

They are hypnagogic hallucinations, commonly heard before falling asleep.

To OBE you more or less need to asleep, but conscious/lucid so that would explain the sometimes rapid weird noises you get when you start exiting as well as why you usually hear a noise or see a flash of light or some vision or weird bodily feel when you are falling asleep and then suddently jolt awake.

i'm not sure if the hallucinations are caused by the fact that you are jolting or the jolting is caused by the hallucination though... it seems like the former to me because i sometimes remember what i was thinking and hearing before a loud noise comes in and the noise seems to happen slightly during the middle of a jolt awake...

[?]

they can be really cool sounding though sometimes.

i also turn outside noises into songs or other sounds...

like when my dogs were barking while i was trying to OBE (they snapped me out of near hypnagogic states a lot but I managed to go pretty far before I got mad and broke concentration and turned the fan on high to drown them out) I would hear muffled bark mixed with the fan whir and then they would stop barking but I'd still be hearing them in my head but the source of the sound was coming from the fan.

a few times i've used that trick to fall asleep at night... i don't know why hearing dogs in my head makes me tired and hearing them in real life keeps me up, but it seems to work.

as for the songs, i hate having songs in my head so i usually try to avoid thinking about music as much as possible.

one weird thing though was this one time i was listening to Tool's third eye and when it was over I put my headphones up and passed out all of a sudden (i have no memory of passing out though) while i was out i heard the entire song in my head, and when it was over i woke up and thought i had been listening to it for real, so i reached up to take my headphones off and was surprised (to say the least) when i noticed i didn't have any on.

i'm not sure how it was triggered but it probably had something to do with me playing the song in my head then going into a detached semi-sleep state...

so i guess that is a very effective method if you know how to do it !

(also listening to the ringing in your ears helps a lot too)

Okay, I feel like I made a lot of progress today.

I wavered in and out of the hypnagogic state many times within the past hour and 20 minutes, I'd say 3-4 staple points in which I was only able to remain "conscious" for like 3 seconds inbetween each gap session (like when i go into hallucinations and start falling asleep)

so What I found during the last one is that when I feel myself coming out, I look at my eyelids... I let myself waver in and out a few more times until I feel very disconnected and mentally unstable and unable to concentrate at all.

When this happens, right as I catch myself losing it, or coming out of it, i forcibly exhale and focus on my inner eyes and do breath awareness with very forceful exhalatoins whenever I feel like I'm losing it... I stare at the blackness and just try to toy with the falling asleep sensations, trying to keep them there while keeping my focus on the breathing and the blackness, and on my heavy body.

What happened was I would feel my fingers twitch and constrict, perhaps paralyzing, while I was doing this, and I do think they really were paralyzed at times, though it may have just been psychological.

I definitely felt a twitch while doing this though and felt totally incapable of moving my fingers.

The only problem is by staying focused this long I ended up snapping out of the in/out process and then I thought "well I must be in a trance" so I tried to move my fingers and they moved no problem, no paralysis.

But I think I'm on the verge of figuring it out, it's a very fine tuned give and take between focus and chaos and I think I need to just once in a while bring the focus up then let it decay a bit then bring it up as to not ever completely lose control of my mind, but to in times be very out of it, as to gradually and gently and constantly coax myself deeper and deeper into a trance.

I must have been pretty deep in the few fleeting moments that I lost control of my mind though because I am absolutely freezing cold right now, shaking and chattering like crazy and my muscles feel very lethargic.

well for starters read the treatise ( http://www.astralpulse.com/guides/oobe/oobe.htm ) on the main page ( http://www.astralpulse.com/ ) and then get back to us.

for other reading you might try www.astralvoyage.com though her "guides" aren't as detailed as Bruce's.

also go to the permanent astral topics forum and read some of those posts.

[honest and open communication]

I just lost my post :<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Okay I haven't read the other replies yet but

Slitting her throat: represents (from my point of view) lack of communication, she may be lying to you, you may be worried that she is lying to you, you may not be communicating well with her, she may not be communicating well with you, you may think she may not be communicating well with you.

dead tree: symbolizes the rapid growth of something negative, as made clear by it taking her away. Something might be wrong with your relationship and if actions are not taken you two will split.

so..

Do you have doubts or fears abou the relationship ending? Are you lying to her? Do you not trust her? Is something wrong with your communication?

The most important question is "what does it mean to you"

but it sounds like you should work on honest and open communication (even if you have it already it wouldn't hurt to try to reexamine it) and though I know very little about relationships I know that lies will ruin them and you should encourage her to tell you the truth about everything including little "white lies" like "no, those clothes don't look horrible!" ... you know, honesty no matter what is what I'd go for myself, but you obviously have to be nice when being honest.

But still, you can tell us more about the dream than we can.

arguing about the existance of chakars is like arguing about the existance of god

you cannot prove/disprove something of that nature.

you can "prove" that people can feel energy within themselves (though if you are incapable of doing so yourself it doesn't do much good and i don't think a majority of the population would have any reason to believe that ANYONE can feel energy just like ANYONE can theoretically OBE) but that is about all you can prove.

Ancient writings about chakras don't have a ton more validity than the Bible does, aside from that no one really wrote about chakras with the intent of forcing people to use them and I can't think of any corrupt way of using teachings of chakra meditation to brainwash people and exert control over them.

What I know personally is I can feel lots of "energy" in my hands, arms, mid torso, and brow. When I hit a vibrational state it's usually in my heart or throat. I can very quickly make my arms feel so heavy and weird like they are completely paralyzed, yet they aren't, and I have no idea why this is and why I cannot so easily cause other "feelings" in body parts with my imagination.

So it would seem that directing a moving focus through an area of your body definitely does something to it somehow that isn't PURELY imaginational, but I don't know if energy is actually flowing through it or not.

sometimes I get kind of a "drunk" feeling but never while in a "trance" it's usually when I can fully feel and move my body, but I'm focusing on my head/third eye.

I don't know exactly what to make of it either.... I've never been drunk but what I'm talking about feels like if you stood up really really fast and almost passed out.. or if you spun around in circles then stopped, and the room feels like it's spinning.

But then I also get this state of mind right before I cross over into the hypnagogic state where I'm alert but I'm not capable of having any real legitimate thoughts, everything I think deteroriorates in mid sentence and I feel really chaotic and disconnected, in a good way, but I still have some bodily awareness.

I'd say my mind feels "drunk" at that point but not my body.

that sounded pretty cool

how vivid were the conversations? Can you remember in detail how they went? Because in my dreams I can't converse legitimiately abuot something with someone unless I MYSELF am knowledgable on the subject.

So basically did the things you talked about and they talked about seem like things that your mind could not possibly make up on their own, or were they just various bits and pieces of things you know?

It sounds to me like you were just caught in all the stuff these forums talk about like how most people wouldn't remember making contact with you and various things like that and they were just incorporated into your head.

Plus I mean you said it was almost like they could read your mind, that sounds exactly like a dream, it's like thinking "i hope there isn't a monster in this room" right before you enter it.

Really about the only thing you can do is ask one of them something that you have no knowledge about and see what they say... i.e. ask them for their mother's maiden name, or something like that, if you don't happen to know it.

What seems to work for me is to simply say "tell me the truth, are you a real person or are you a creation of my mind?" then stare at them and try to keep your mind clear...

it's very hard for a fake person to respond if you have no thoughts running through your head, as from my experience everything everyone says and does is based upon little snippets of thoughts that run through your mind on various layers, and plus if you're lucid enough to realize they may be creations of your mind, they might actually willfully acknowladge that to you if you ask them.

I did it last night and the girls head shrunk and semi exploded and I was disappointed but continued trying to communicate and get information nonetheless.

But anyway what matters is how it felt to you, if you can interact with people and they really seem real then that's great, but if you have doubts then they may very well not be.

There isn't much of a way to tell aside from trying to get informatoin from them which you don't know.

and lucid dreams seem to have equal "reality" potential so don't limit yourself to just OBEs to try finding real people.

so how in the world do you take that final step out of your body or into paralysis once you get to the point where your mind is roaming free and and you have no control over it and images and thoughts are drifting out?

i mean i ask this all the time but either no one cares or no one knows.

you get these rushes of adrenaline and heaviness and vibration and then you are back into normal thinking but then it decays and your thoughts run wild and then you jolt back again and this just keeps happening over and over and over.

it's like i'm standing on a line conscious | unconscious

and whatever i try to do to make myself project or make myself STAY ALERT while I cross the line doesn't work, becuase as soon as I cross it there is no "me" there is just random stuff going on that I have no control of.. and when i jolt back i know that i was paralyzed because i feel the heaviness and the intense vibrations, but the only thing is they are gone now, becuase i'm conscious again, and have a body again, and it's just a normal body and a normal state of mind, just that it's very hard to keep it focused for the few seconds that it takes to go back over the line again into randomness.

no amount of concentration has worked, my body and mind are going to SLEEP becuase I am going about entering this state in a more or less effortless manner, much like going to sleep is... kind of similar to how you described finding a sleep trigger (the key for me is abrupt transitions, like "Hey, you lost track of your thoughts" and that realization produces a falling adrenaline like sensation in me, kind of like when i completely come out of the above described states (of total dissociation and hallucination)

i mean i can try doing this in a chair so maybe my mind doesn't think it's trying to go to sleep, but then i'm not sure if i'd be able to even hit the hypnagogic state.

what you said about finding a patch of color and holding onto it is absolutely true though, but the problem is you have to be pretty much completely out of touch with reality and your body in the first place, you can't just sit down and instantly find a color and deepen it and hold onto and pop right out.

but anyway it sounds like you are doing more or less what i am doing, and i'd really like some help. I made a thread about it yesterday or the day before http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10305

[every single one of us]

quote:Originally posted by cube



Would it be possible to artificially stimulate this part of your brain with powerful magnets or electrodes and induce an OBE?

I seem to remember reading a study where they did just that to people.

And "If NDE's (and OBE's for that matter) are hallucinations, then why do all (or most, should I say) of these "hallucinations" seem to follow a uniform experience? In other words, most people who have a NDE report the same things: seeing their immediete surroundings, seeing a bright light or tunnel, seeing deceased relatives, etc."

Why do most people that experience myclonic (?) jerks tend to feel like they are falling, accompanied by sometimes visual hallucinations of them tripping over something?

Why do almost all people that frequently experience sleep paralysis describe it in such similar manners?

there is a ton to consider before you use the fact that people have similar experiences as proof that they are "real"

First of all, every single one of us has heard the cheesy light at the end of the tunnel saying, and "my life flashed before my eyes" saying, and things like that.

So don't you think if you found yourself exiting your body and thought you were dead you might be just slightly (by which I mean extremely) more prone to having either of the two happen?

Secondly, the brain might interpret a loss of sensory input and a dissociated feeling and try it's hardest to represent it into terms we can understand (which is a theory on why we dream, we are interpreting random memories and neural pathways being activated) and thus it creates a tunnel.

I mean if you are conscious and you start losing your vision you get TUNNEL VISION, so I don't think there is really any significance in people seeing tunnels.

I mean for example a huge portion of American NDE-ers will probably see Jesus, or angels, etc... but if you go over to Asia a lot of them will be seeing Buddha, etc....

This does not prove that Jesus and heaven exists, or that those asians were entering Nirvana. It's just the result of collective culture.

[waking induced variety]

quote:Originally posted by Kazbadan

quote:Originally posted by holy reality
I have still yet to be able to gain control of the hypnagogic state in the middle of the day despite intense attempts at focusing... so that may have something to do with the dream like qualities of my experiences.

What do you mean by controling the hypnagogic state during the day? do you have hallucinations or something?!

No, I meant that I cannot control the hypnagogic state when I try to project during the day like I sometimes can in the mornings... and that most of my OBEs are nestled between dreams so that could account for less realism.

This is what I said:

quote:
anyway I'd like to mention that all the OBE's I've had have been of the waking induced variety and I have still yet to be able to gain control of the hypnagogic state in the middle of the day despite intense attempts at focusing... so that may have something to do with the dream like qualities of my experience

but if you want to know in more detail what i'm talking about i recently made a thread about it.
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10305

could you explain what you mean by handing a pyramid over the bed?

"because you will head AWAY from the conscious trance state. "

but it's much easier to get into an unconscious trance

so say you do that, then you jolt out of it, and are about to go back in, how do you seize control at that point and make sure you stay alert while going back in?

my problem:
( http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10305 )

anyway where can I find monroe's descriptions about the different focus levels? I find the "criterion A" and such that everyone in the world copies and pastes onto their shabby websites, but that's about it.

unless you are very overweight or have heart/blood pressure problems it's probably actually good for you as long as this doesn't go on for an extremely long time

getting your heart rate up to a certain level for a certain amount of time a day is supposed to be good for you or something like that... I think?

quote:Originally posted by NEone

Ok, here's the way I see it. Your brain can recreate any physical perception you have ever had, or can reasonably approximate how a new physical sensation should feel. I.e. none of us have ever flown before, but our brains can take a stab at what it would be like to fly based on expectations. Or, if you've never been swimming, your brain could still make a good guess as to what it would feel like based on what it knows about water, your body etc.

Now, going on this, I had a feeling that my brain should not have been able to create on its own. I felt myself floating around my room. Then I returned to my body. When I got close to it, I felt myself located both above my body *and* simultaniously inside my body. It's a very hard sensation to describe, and I didn't really know that it was going to happen, so I didn't have any expectations of it or anything.  My point is, in my opinion, there is no way my brain could possibly independently produce this sensation because there is no event in "normal" physical reality that could even resemble such a thing. Maybe if it were something like 2 heartbeats or 4 legs or some other viable sensation it would be different, but I definitely don't think the brain in its natural state can ever *imagine* 2 points of conciousness.

I know that's not "proof" really, but still, it's something...

well we can take into account various theories:
freud and his views of the unconscious
bruce's idea of mind split
... well I guess those are the only two I can think of.

But it does seem like it is indeed possible to have multiple consciousnesses running at the same time, in fact I have this memory that I just triggered in my head about this subject, and I'm not sure where it came from. I believe I was riding in a car thinking about how I could have many different levels of consciousness active but am only confined to one at a time and thus tend to only have that consciousnesses memories.... yes I remember now, I was thinking about something someone posted on these boards about Monroe supposedly being able to choose whether he wanted to occupy his physical/astral body but while he was doing one the other would still be active, so like theoerteically if he was doing something boring he could leave the body and let his normal body mind continue doing whatever it was it was doing.

Which is an interesting thought...

but at any rate you most certainly have two "bodies" while dreaming, and your physical body is not completely shut down, it is still somewhat receiving sensory information as if something happened to it you would need to wake up instantly to be able to respond.

So with that in mind it is entirely conceivable that the brain could easily merge your physical senses with your dream senses, this is evident when you're drooling in your sleep and dream about eating and smearing sauce all over your face, only to wake up and feeling that the "sauce" you felt was actually on your physical body.

Or finding yourself lying on your side doing something in the dream then it spontaneously ends and you're in the same position.

So since these happen easily it's not hard to think that you could simulatenously feel your sleeping body while you were active in your dream if you focused on it or were in a light stage of sleep.

Taking into account the "unconscious" (yes it exists more or less but whether it is an actual separate entity responsible for dreaming and things like that is up to debate) it would seem that sections of your mind are divided up into monitoring your body and since you are in an altered state of consciousness while dreaming it would theoretically make sense that you could become aware of those parts of consciousness.


anyway I'd like to mention that all the OBE's I've had have been of the waking induced variety and I have still yet to be able to gain control of the hypnagogic state in the middle of the day despite intense attempts at focusing... so that may have something to do with the dream like qualities of my experiences.

I have OBEd many a time and had all sorts of crazy things going on outside that didn't match the time of day or current environment.

If I run into my family, they can see me and talk to me.

My OBE environment is exactly the same as my lucid dream environment.

My room only seems to be realistic when I'm NOT lucid (though I'm not sure if it's ever been remotely close to accurate or not, possibly)

Having said that, when I do the card test, it behaves like reading any text in a dream would (though I dont' recall if I have done it from a traditional OBE) I do know that the time I succeeded (partially) was a lucid dream when I remembered the card and looked for it.

At first it was the Jack of Diamonds (Spades? whatever, it doesn't matter what it was, I know that the first card I saw was correct but I don't specifically remember what the card was [i have it written down]).. but it was so fuzzy and vague that self doubt turned it into somthing else.

That something else it turned into was incorrect, but the first thing it was was indeed right.

However based upon the workings of my subconscious I seem to have an affinity for face cards and "Jack of Diamonds" seems kind of burned into it.

What puzzles me are OBEs within dreams, they feel exactly the same, right down to a T, but I'm just OBEing into the environemnt of my dream... as in I dream I'm sleeping and then I decide to OBE and I do so.

The only thing is usually I'm never sleeping in my room, but somewhere else.

Now I know dreaming about sleeping is normal since your body IS SLEEPING so I'm probably picking up on th at, but what I don't get is why I never figure out that I'm in the wrong room and such.

At any rate... I don't really have much evidence in favor of proving the "validity" of OBE's or lucid dreams. I've had my share of precognitive dreams, and things that seem extremely real... but based upon the facts that..........

I can't have legitimate conversations with people.
People that I don't know well tend to look wrong or be impossible to summong.
I cannot go to "real" places even though I vividly remember what they should look like in my head and can even bring up photograph memories of the place I want to go to (in real life, memory seems to be harder to access while out of it)
I cannot have realistic sex (because I've never had sex so my mind really struggles very much with female anatomy, etc...) and if these were real people surely it would work much like having real sex would.
I can sometimes hear people's answers being generated in my head

......

I would say they are not real but there is potential for exploring "reality" if you get really good at it or know how to silence your subconscious mind.

when i was younger i used to have various nightmares and I'd "wake up" from them and something would be dragging me by the feet off my bed.

I don't know if it's just a false dream or someone trying to take me from my body though.

But yes it most certainly is 100% possible, I do it all the time.

Whenever I wake up from a lucid dream I always try and get right back in it, usually by asking whoever I was dreaming about to pull me back in, and they almost always do..

One time I was dreaming about my friend and I kept asking him to pull me out and nothing happened so I asked someone else, I then went and found my friend and yelled at him for not pulling me out. He said he didn't want to or didn't think he could or something like that.

Good times.... I've also grabbed onto to people that I've seen wandering around in my inner eye visions and used them to get out...

and once in a while if I can vividly create somewhere I want to go (rare) I create and object in that area and grab onto it and pull myself into the place.

Sometims I just phase there too (haven't done that since I figured out how to make my dream characters do all the work though, lazy me)

it does kind of make you lazy but.... i don't see anything wrong with taking the easy way out, and I can still roll myself out of my body and stumble around wherever I am groggily if need be.

(haven't hit vibrations and let them do their work in a long time though :/)

but what I usually do is when I wake up from a dream and I'm still tired I just don't move and remember everything as vividly as I can and start calling out to the people near me to pull me back in.

It works like 80-90% of the time with a little bit of effort on my part (lots of concentration)

What bothers me is I can do the same while wide awake and if I really use my imagination well I can get weird feelings and sometimes feel them grabbing my hand... yet.... nothing happens.

I wonder how long it's going to take me to be able to conscious OBE....

oh and I have no idea how to pull people out... becuase first of all I've never really met real people before, that is unless they are extremely dumb from being in a dream state.. because they don't talk to me very well and I can control their responses (usually)

no i'm not focusing on my breathing

what happens is i'll just hit these random spikes where either i lose control of my mind and voices/pictures start surfacing then I jolt back into normal thinking... or sometimes (but rarely) it'll seem like my mind was completely empty

but when i jolt out of it, I can never know when it's going to happen and it takes me by surprise.. it's like being woken up by an extremely loud noise in your room while you were sleeping... it gives me this huge jolt of adrenaline coupled with falling/heavy feelings and vibrations (sometimes) for a fraction of a second.

if i'm "looking" at the inside of my eyelids there is also usually a very bright flash of light.

this all lasts maybe 1/10 of a second so I don't have any time to realy do anything to ruin the moment, it's just that I'm not out of it enough or something.

but each time it happens i lose more and more control of my mind until i either fall asleep or get frustrated and quit.

what bothers me is I KNOW you can enter a trance without getting at all tired or unfocused, becuase I do it a lot during the night when I wake up from a dream.... but I don't really understand how I'm doing that?

I mean I think it's because I had just been deeply involved with senses from another world, so all I have to do is try to imagine I'm still dreaming and in that place and my body disappears... or something?

But I'm not sure if it has anything to do with brainwaves since if you wake up and you're not immediately paralyzed you should be in beta waves?

I don't know.

All I know is I need to be able to during the day enter a trance without losing focus of my mind and falling asleep... I don't like having to just HOPE that i'll go into a brief dream then wake up into paralysis... it's so innefficient and tiring.

also what bothers me the most is this morning i was falling back asleep and i kept dreaming about sleeping, and about sleep paralysis, yet i never thought "hey, this isn't real, let's go do something"

don't do them in the bathub, that's just asking for trouble

when you are sleeping your body breathes automatically.. all it takes is a half a second under water and you could wake up "dead" or you could wake up inhaling water.

now I don't really know how the body reacts to being unconscious while underwater... in the movies I always see how people just kind of pass out and don't inhale... but that makes no sense, sooner or later when you run out of air your body is going to make itself inhale, thus kililng you..

so maybe you would automatically hold your breath if you slid under water while out of body, maybe not...

But it makes no damn sense to risk it... and it makes no damn sense to sleep or AP in a bathtub.

There is a huge inherent risk involved there... I just wouldn't risk it.

Now maybe if you rigged a sort of sensory deprivation tank up that had no room to allow you to roll over and when you were flat on your back your face stuck up above the water, and maybe you had something around your head to keep you from turning it....

but in a bathtub sure there's a chance you could drown yourself... it allegedly happens a lot.

I'm inclined to take Kuzzi's stance... sure there could be spirits, or christianity could be right... it doesn't matter, at least not to me.

These dreams come from your head, you can argue that something put them there, but even if that is so, what matters is your interpreations of them, and how htey relate to your life and your mind.

Since you seem to have the forge dream figured out then I don't see what else we could really  help you with on that one... I mean... I'm inclined to agree with your interpretation.

As for the black spirit ... well.. yeah... everyone goes through bad dreams that transition into waking, or maybe, you weren't really ever awake when you thought you were and felt his presence.

What the guy symbozlies I have no clue, whether he was real I have no clue... but if it isn't a recurring dream theme I wouldn't worry TOO much about it..

Frankly I get that thing all the time, and I think I know why I'm getting it, but... thanks to these forums I've been caught up in wondering whether these are real presences, but you know, it just doesn't seem like it. If I ask them questions and hold my mind blank as possible they tend to not respond.. if I ask them questions witha  thought running through my head or expectations there, they tend to meet them.

So. Whether the demons are real, or parts of your mind, it doesn't matter. What matters is conquering them... be it by figuring out what they represent and trying to change your life, or just confronting and warding them off when they do start hassling you.

The former seems more important though and the latter seems like all it really does is provide your mind temporary relief from what's plaguing it.

But in spite of all this I do feel that there is something very deep about the subconscious mind and that it does hold "mystical" connections... I've been able to "predict" things before and I've been able to do a card test somewhat accurately.... I've just spontaneously "known" things, not like intuition know, but just... a mindless... "knowing" and they have been right. I have had my fair share of luck (and much more of unluck) at manipulating things to my favor.

I somehow "knew" I was going to sit down and play poker and win the very first hand... and I was right... I knew that when I won the second hand that I should quit... I didn't... and lost 1/4 of my money in the end (it's only $1.00 though, but damn I wish my family played with tons of money because I felt very confident in playing with a $20 and then I would have made like $40-60 in the first few hands and would have listened to myself to quit, rather than keep playing).

But... I think... this connection... well... I think we are all connected to each other and that reality is much more subjective than we realize.

As for spirits, I'm extremely skeptical. No doubt there are probably higher forms of life outhere somewhere... and I do suppose it may be possible to communicate with them while sleeping/out of body, but I don't have any reason to think I've ever stepped outside of the dream world, be it a collective dream or a subjective one.

I keep an open mind though.

[I mean spying isn't so bad if you actually have to have evidence before you go arresting and detaining people.]

quote:I think that is a great program. It probably saved many lives around the world but it takes our privacy away

"he that would trade a little bit of freedom for a little bit of security deserves neither."

This was said by a man who knew what he was talking about, Benjamin Franklin.

How many rights is it okay to give away so the boogie men dont' get us? How close to a police state do you want us to get? Where do you draw the line? YOU DON'T, they draw it for you. Don't like their regulations? BOOM, a building falls down, they say they need more of them, you suck it up and say okay and support the war machine.

I'm kind of unsure about monitoring internet activities.. by itself it isn't so horrible but when you give them the power to detain anyone they want that crosses the line.

I mean, I just said "boom" what if I got flagged and some patriotic moron didn't like my tone and thought I was questioning the government too much and the next day I disappeared? Well.. it can't quite legally happen yet, but rest assured they want it to, and they tried (Patriot II).

I mean spying isn't so bad if you actually have to have evidence before you go arresting and detaining people. Then of course the secret military tribunals.

You're bonked. We all are if we don't do something about it before it gets out of hand.

And yes Dean/Clark are the more likely to defeat Bush but it doesn't hurt at all to vote for Kucinich in the primaries, he has a lot of support out there but most people are like "I like him but I'd better not vote for him."

Well if he were a third party candidate I'd understand the argument but how does it hurt if you vote for him in primaries? Assuming he wins enough he may become VP, or the main Dem nominee.... from there it's up to him to stay quiet about his real views and try his hardest to put on a pretty smile and appease the hicks and swing voters....

I'm sure if he got the main Dem nomination he'd carry all the normal Dem states... the swings... well.. we can hope, can't we?

So I'm saying, vote for him in the primaries... if he doesn't make it till the end then vote for the lesser of two evils.

Frankly I'm worried Clark is just a republican in disguise... his website really doesn't talk about his stances on issues at all.. he could be doing this because his issues are real liberal and he doesn't want the common voter to think he's too far left... or it could be the exact opposite.

But... really in my mind Kucinich / Braun / Sharpton seem to be the best bets but two of them are black and one a woman, so... that wouldn't really go over too well... I'm unsure of whether I like Clark better than Dean and vice versa.

here are some more good reads:
(government planned terror on our own citizens)
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/jointchiefs_010501.html

very disturbing not too biased (all things are biased though) comparison between us and the beginnings of Nazi Germany
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0316-08.htm

Then we have this O Neil guy that claims Bush was planning to go to war with Iraq since January 2001.

well i often times will see a little blue (like really psychadelic and shimmery) speck on something when i'm on the computer for a long time, or when I'm staring at something... I'm not sure if it has to do with after colors or what... I think it may be more to due with having a fixed and ddead gaze upon something... but it's very small and goes away fairly quickly..

i cannot see auras so i'm not sure whether that would be like the very beginning of auric visoin or it hwas something natural to expalin it by

i know that you can see thousands of small white specks if you look at the sky during a bright day and that has to do with parasites in y our eye or something, same for transparent squiggles...

but this is most definitely nothing like that...

it might be something wrong with our eyes lol as i remember this eyedoctor form i was supposed to fill out once that might have asked something about that.......?

I'm not sure.

quote:Originally posted by Kerrblur

so wait a second, do you guys who summon these creations, have actuall conversations with them? they come to your house when summoned? do they talk about anything else other than what you read about in the book? lol so do they actually have smarts?

from my experience, NO.... your mind just makes random stuff up ...

but anyway what I'd like to touch upon is not so much that vampires ARE real and you're channelling a vampire dimension.. it's that you're just accessing the collective unconscious of mankind... everyone has heard of Dracula (almost) so you can summon the guy and you'll get what everyone's collective interpretation of him (including your own) is, and he will behave that way, more or less, however your expectations are ultimately in control since it's you dream.

(projection, whatever, you get what i'm saying)

but umm if astral people are real, the "loving" should be a lot more realistic than it is for me, but given my complete lack of experience with women I very rarely get realistic action, nor do the women look normal for very long... they often times turn into me.. actually.... probably becuase i'm a lot more familiar with my own body than I would be of women, despite pornography's influence upon me.

but umm yeah if there are real people out there i've yet to have any sensible conversations with them.. i think it's possible though but maybe i'm not developed enough.

as for trying to create something and manifest that in real life.. i tried it with a few hundred dollar bills with no success... and with an amp.

and the concept of an astral pet is a great idea, i made one once called Steve the bear... I recently resummoned him in one lucid dream for some reason, but he didn't look quite the same and his chain gun was missing....

I should try to summon him every night so my mind becomes familiar with him and he can perhaps grow stronger/smarter or something, or just automatically be with me at all times to protect me from nightmares, etc.

the problem with reality checks is you cannot reality check what he is describing

you NEVER notice the clock say 11:79 or that you cannot find a passage in a book you just read, or on a web page...

those things just don't happen in real life... so when they happen in dream you just sit there like an idiot scouring over the website 5 or 6 times trying to find what you just read, and that can consume an entire very long dream

i guess the only way to combat that is every time you read a typo or something that doesn't quite make sense to you in real life, ask yourself "am i dreaming?" and also... THINK really hard about how stupid it is for you to not pickup on those obvious dream cues and tell yourself multiple times a day that anytime you read something that doesn't make a lot of sense or see a weird time that you'll know you're dreaming

i think the only thing that standard reality checks help with is lucidity in general, ala, compatability with most dreams, but they don't help you target you recurring dream patterns

like i always dream about sleeping and i never second guess what i'm doing in a bed other than my own with who knows what weird stuff going on around me

and i once an a while dream about waking up at 3:00 and watching porn, despite not having any porn/movie channels... yet i've NEVER gone lucid no matter how much i think about that during the day

and... sometimes i'll "discover" that we got a ton of new cable channels.. yet... same situation, never realize it's a dream... and I do upon waking up think very heavily about how whenver I see something like that it 100% means I'm dreaming, but I still never seem to catch on

my only idea is that that part of the brain responsible for reading is SO screwed up while dreaming (this is true) that when you read something strange your mind just makes up random things to assure you that it's real and that it makes sense to you, so reading things does not make a good reality check in dream?

drinking however, looking at the hands, looking at clocks, eating, going to the bathroom... if you could force yourself to automatically ask "am i dreaming" and really think about it, maybe try flying... each time you do one of those things...

90% of your dreams would probably be lucid.

hmm.