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and the car takes off - driving itself! I was freaked out at first but the "driver" was a good driver because the car managed to steer around curbs just fine. I could see the driving wheel turn all by itself. It was super neato!

Ha, cool! I just took a ride in a self-driving car myself! It's always neat to have an experience, and then afterwards to read that someone else had the same experience, too =)

Thank you everyone! UPDATE:

I decided that on my next venture out, I would ask to be taken directly to my Higher Self for some clarity about the whole being electrocuted thing. I didn't get any direct answers (surprised?) but I think the overall message of the experience was that everything is happening the way it should, I'm at where I need to be, boxes are being ticked off, and "They" are always watching. So I'm still in the dark, but being in the dark feels a little more safe, now <3   

Here's the full story of my encounter with my Higher Self (supposedly, or maybe I was taken to someone else, who knows) in case you're curious: http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_astral_projection_experiences/projection_journal_looking_for_help_analyzingunderstanding_them-t47927.0.html;msg374207#msg374207

Thank you again so much for all your help and insights!

20 July 2020

Out of body experience - astral projection

Asked clearly and repeatedly to be taken to my higher self. I wanted to know why all that pain was inflicted on me (discussed in this thread: http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_astral_projection_experiences/is_it_quotnormalquot_to_have_serious_pain_inflicted_on_you-t47938.0.html). Felt the invisible hands again. We moved horizontally for a brief bit, then suddenly straight up. Up, up up, faster and faster straight up. It seemed like I was then in a hallway outside of an office, as if I were going to see an HR specialist. A young white man then called me into his office. He said his name was Jason. He looked about 25, and kinda hipsterish. I was like....This is my higher self? He appeared to not know why I was there. Sort of like, "So, what brings you here?" or "So what can I do for you?" He seemed to be going through a mental checklist of things, running through possible issues, and confirming for himself that all that checked out and was fine. Like he just couldn't think what I could possibly need to talk to him about! Included in this list was when he mused, "....and it's not time for The Moment."

Of course I wondered, OoOoooOOOO what's ThE mOmEnT?!?!

Sounded like something of consequence. But I didn't want to lose my focus, so I told him that I was there because of what happened to me last time. I experienced great physical pain, it felt like I was being electrocuted. I wanted to know what that was about, why it happened, what purpose it served. He had an outdated TV set on a stand, like the TVs on the black rolling carts that they used to wheel in and out of classrooms to watch something. He turned it on to look at video footage of my out of body experiences. He was going to look for the incident I told him about, when I was hurt. He began skipping around, stopping to look, and skipping around again. On the TV screen I saw footage of myself. I don't think the footage exactly lined up with the out of body experiences I've had, but I think the point was that every move I made was seen, and that I was always under somebody's watch, as it were, even tho I didn't realize I was being observed so closely. Well, he didn't seem to find the exact incident I came there to talk about. I asked him, "So, are you a part of me, or are you like a separate spirit guide type of entity?" His replied, "Yes." I was like....OK it was either one or the other, dude! I also asked him again that his name was Jason, because I didn't want to forget. He said something to the effect of, well, this is a name I'm using. He also asked me at some point (I don't remember exactly when this happened) he was like, "So....you live in....CITY now?" And I was like, Yes! I've been there a while! Then suddenly, we were in a car. He and I were in the backseat, no one in the front. It was a self-driving car and I remember thinking that was pretty cool. It was bright and sunny, out, clear skies. We were going really fast down a hill with lots of curves/switchbacks. The self-driving car was snaking down the road so fast it was like a fun roller coaster. I wanted to talk to him and ask him more questions, but I also wanted to just enjoy the ride down the hill (it almost seemed we were somewhere Mediterranean). I was definitely like, weeeeeeeeee! A few times I looked at my hands, rubbed my hands together, and even looked at and touched my foot to try to ground my focus where I was. But while the car was zipping down the hill, I phased back into my body.

after starting the visualization technique of William Buhlman.

Just wondering which technique in particular brought the "earthquake" 

So, we at the Pulse are an eclectic, but incredible, kind of support group (if I don't mind tooting our little horn, lol).

I'm seeing that and am SO GRATEFUL for the help and guidance =)

Let's try again.
http://kurtleland.com/astral-projection-log/2006/99-recognizing-simulations-astral-plane

This is a link to Kurt Leland's website and his Astral Projection Log. There is plenty to read there and decide if you like his writing and perspective on all this. If so, then I could recommend a few books of his.

Thank you! I will read thru this and will pipe up for specific book recommendations when the time comes =)

And look for the watchers. These will be the ones there to observe you and your progress. They can help you to one degree or another.

Great advice, thank you!

2 decades of reading different AP accounts, books, discussions with people on different forums, this is a rare occurrence.

This is part of what worries me! If inflicting pain is for a good purpose, why is it so rare? In the few accounts you have read about the sort of thing that happened to me, was there any conclusion or consensus about why that happens, for what purpose, etc? Does ANYONE have any idea, at all, what it could me, why it happens sometimes?

All I know for sure is that there are lot of things out there we don't understand. Much of it I think does utilize our many levels of consciousness. My big question though is along the lines of just because it's painful does that mean it is nefarious? I don't know but this is down the rabbit hole.

I'm sorry you have had to deal with something similar....but I do appreciate the commiseration =) I think for me it's the issue is trust. Thus far, I have been totally trusting that whatever entities I come into contact with, that they're good, there to help me, and have my best interest at heart. Being electrocuted suddenly makes me question that. If it's possible that some bad entities out there might mess with me, then it means I can't automatically trust whoever/whatever I come in contact with. I've been assuming that they're all there to teach me, guide me. Especially the one that electrocuted me - she was the one helping me/directing me as we floated down my hallway and out of my apartment. I would think she's a supportive entity. So what purpose did the pain serve? I don't know.

And, if something happened to you like this and you're still processing, that makes me think that maybe you haven't figured out why that was done to you, either. If it's so impossible to figure out why these rare negative things happened to us, that makes me wonder if maybe there's no big reason. Like if there's a big reason why they happened to use, surely we'd figure it out at some point, right?

I don't really have any good answers for you, but just wanted to say I know how frustrating it can be! People get intuitive information in different ways. Some people might be really good at getting information through sounds/voice (they hear things), other people may be more visual, other people kinesthetic (they feel things, get strong sensations in their bodies). We're all different. However you receive intuitive information is valid. I'm very visual but have a hard time understanding what the things I see mean. I joke that my shamanic guides are always engaged in "interpretive dance" LOL and I'd really like to get past the interpretive dance stage. "Oh just bloody TELL ME already!" They're not ones for explaining things. They just do something weird and somehow I'm supposed to know what the heck they mean LOL

When I'm heading out of body, however, sometimes I pass through the hypnogogic imagery stage (weird flashes of different things behind my eyes) - it's always nonsense. Random flashes of things that don't make any sense. I wonder if when you get auditory gibberish, you're passing through that stage, but your flashes come in sound rather than images. I don't really know, just thinking out loud. So my point is, maybe there's a state beyond that where things get more clear, and auditory messages will make more sense when you get to that point.

OK, so this one has thrown me for a loop, and disturbed me so much I feel like I need to start a separate thread to ask about it.

My last proper AP, my supposed helper suddenly created a lot of physical pain for me. Up until this time, I had felt some discomfort, strain, or soreness in my astral limbs and body, but nothing that bad. But this HURT. And I really, quite literally, felt all of it. It felt like I was being electrocuted and was horrifying. A bit re-traumatizing, actually.

I haven't yet come across anyone here posting about having this sort of experience. If someone has, I've just missed it. So, I'm wondering if this is common, rare, etc? It also makes me wonder to what extent we can trust that the entities we come into contact with are always "good". Would a "good" spirit do that? Also, and this is a whole other topic, but as soon as I was back in my body I thought to myself, This is why people thing they've been abducted by aliens. They're having an out of body experience and, for whatever reason, being restrained and caused pain in such a way that it feels like they're being experimented on.

I want to add: I was not afraid at ALL going into this. I was happy, joyful, and totally trusting. So I don't think we can say that I "manifested" this torturous experience due to my own subconscious fears and expectations of something negative happening to me. Further, if we can surmise that the people who think they're being tortured by aliens are having an out of body experience something similar to what just happened to me, then we can ask again: How do we know that those entities are GOOD? Why would they do that if they're good? The people who think they're being abducted....they don't know what's going on. They have no idea, they don't welcome the experience, they're not gaining anything from it, this is not furthering their spiritual evolution. So why would "good" entities keep traumatizing them like that, over and over?

Anyway, I'm copying what happened here below. Would really appreciate knowing if this has happened to anyone, or if anyone has any insight into it. It was pretty upsetting for me, TBH.

14 July 2020

Out of body experience - astral projection

Phased/spun out this morning. Felt like bed started moving again, but I was floating while still laying down. Moved out through my apartment hallway, out the front door. Woman behind me, felt her hands on my shoulders, and I put my hands over hers. I was happy and excited, I thought we were going to fly over the city! Began to float up a bit. On the right appeared a take out window, like of a fast food restaurant. The woman, still behind me and who I couldn't see, ordered french fries for herself. I wanted to order some, too. I looked to my right, and saw a long line of people had shown up behind us, waiting to place their orders. I remember wondering if they were inherently spirits or if they were dead people, that they must eat here a lot, and how lucky we were that we beat the rush! Eventually I was handed a french fry to taste/try. I took it, and as I put it in my mouth, the woman behind me put something against my right cheek/side of face. The device, which seemed like a thin oval tube approximately 3 inches long, solid dark color, I felt tremendous pain in my body, especially my ankles. It was like I was electrocuted or tased. I got a fleeting sense of the flavor of the french fry, but not too much, as the pain was overwhelming everything else. It really, really, really hurt. Next thing I know, I'm being wheeled into a large, indoor space, like an airplane hanger. I'm still reeling from the shocking pain inflicted on me. There was a man who had a device in his hands. It wasn't the same device, it was large and round. He was going to use it on me, he was pointing it at my feet. Somehow, I felt restrained and held down on the floor. I was kicking and struggling, yelling for the woman to come back and explain to me what was happening, what they were trying to do. As I struggled and kicked on the ground, another, much shorter man came up and was trying to convince me to let the taller man do whatever he was going to do with the device. Again, I was yelling for them to stop, for someone to explain to me what they were going to do, if it was going to hurt. The smaller guy was saying something to the effect of, We know what's best for you! Or something like that. I kept struggling and asking for the woman to come back, for any sort of helper or spirit guide to show up and help me. No one came to my aid. At that point, I WANTED to be back in my body, because the whole experience was so re-traumatizing. So I phased back in.



I haven't really had a proper AP since then. Two days later, on the 16th, I think I had a bizarre lucid dream. It was too weird and disjointed to be a proper AP, tho. It seemed like they (whoever) wanted to do some kind of a procedure or event to "regress" me back to being a baby. Like Benjamin Button style, literally becoming younger and younger, to the moment of birth. My body and mind would become a baby again. Then these people (whoever) would bring me back up to the present. I asked if in this process I would lose any of my memories, and they seemed not able to guarantee that. So I was like "um excuse me." There seemed to be some sort of conversation happening about this issue, then I woke up. But totally unrelated to the painful experience, and I have not had any other experiences since.

My guess is that your Shamanic training has prepared you well for this, that instinctive functioning of the mind kind of thing.

Ha, thanks!

I'm not exactly sure where to start except to suggest that you have entered an alternative 'training program' to that of the Shamanic program. This program could be described as the Theosophic/Occult version or maybe just the modern Western Civilization Esoteric version. The author Kurt Leland describes it quite well and it appears to closely describe my own journey and several others around this site. With some differences and exceptions noted, it's basically a training program of continuing experiences/simulations monitored and facilitated by either Visible or invisible guides/teachers/instructors/invisible helpers.

Is there a book specifically that you'd recommend where he describes this "training program"? I have only read one AP book so far. I'd like to create a good list, but will probably hold off reading anything else for a while, until I have more of my own experiences. I don't want to color my expectations *too* much.

Also, what does it mean that it's a "simulation"? The experiences I started off having, up until that point - what were they? Were they not simulations? Did they have more "reality" than the simulations? Were they not "educational" in some way? I think back to the first one, where at one point it seemed like I was being given the challenge of hand eye coordination. What's the difference between a "simulation" and just...being out somewhere in the astral universe? Do all training programs have the same end goal, at least generally speaking? Different?

So the very early tests are about simple emotions- Fear, Sexual Arousal, Frustration, Anger...followed by extremes of any of the other emotions. Cognitive confusion is a big one...not understanding the purpose of a simulation, losing the thread...we stop and think what are the causes, what are the possibilities? They don't reward indecision...one, two seconds, three...you're done, simulation ended.

Yeah I'm right up there with the cognitive confusion bit. I think I've failed that test repeatedly LOL

The women showed up as further distractions but you evaded them and went into the water (again a win).

This may be too "meta" a question, but how do we KNOW they they were there only as a simulated distraction, rather than separate spirit/astral/energy entities in their own right, who were trying to interact with me for some reason of their own? Is it possible to know, one way or the other?


Thanks for your fabulous feedback! I sincerely appreciate it.

Thank you for this great insight, everyone! I will try not to fret too much about all the "through the looking glass" stuff =) Just excited to get back out there and see where everything goes...

About the mirror. Mirrors have probably pretty much the same meaning for all of us. Look in a mirror and see your true self or an alternate self. GR what I'm saying is don't be discouraged by the "Harlot". This gives you a clue 'where' you are and this version would have something to teach you.

WOAH WOAH WOAH. Are you saying that looking in the astral mirror and seeing myself as a harlot means that I'm seeing myself as I exist in a life in another dimension?

What.....what.....but....

Since I would hope the harlot isn't my true self, this means I'm getting a glimpse into a live I'm living somewhere else? Am I misunderstanding? How can I specify where I am beyond...."another dimension"?

And, are ya'll being literal or metaphorical about looking into a mirror and falling down a tunnel/hole?

13 July 2020

Out of body experience - astral projection

Not sure on how I got out this time. I think it was based in phasing. A helper seemed to be giving me a piggyback ride. She seemed to know me, and I asked if we'd met before. I think she said, "Something like that." She called me a sweet pet name, like Cookie Elf or something LOL. While being carried piggy back, we approached the open door to a very large room, with a stage and an audience in attendance. On the wall on the outside if the door was a large horizontal mirror. I looked at myself on our way in. It seemed like me in human form, but my hair was long again, my face was covered in makeup, and I was (again!!?!?!?!) in some kind of risque outfit. This time it seemed like a corset and, something, like I was going to dance/perform on stage. Again the outfit was all black. AGAIN the audience seemed to be all men.

WTF??!?!

I remember that I laughed at myself when I saw myself in the mirror. I am not a dancer, and have no background in dance, and have no idea how to dance, but I was trying to just "go with it" and see what the experience was about, so I even jauntily waved at the audience as I was carried in (still piggy back) into the room. There were lots of other women on stage, it seemed, standing in front of me. I was in the very back, not quite ready to "go on". There was something wrong with my outfit, like it was too big and falling apart. So, a younger woman took me down some stairs to the basement, theoretically to help me fix it. I remember she seemed annoyed at having to do this, like a teenager. She was hurrying down the stairs a lot faster than me. I remember reaching out and feeling for the banister, following her down. I called after her and asked her for the name of the nice woman who had carried me in. She told me a name, and I exclaimed, That's my mother's name! Then the teen seemed to warm up to me, like aw, that's nice that they share a name. I asked the teen what year it was. She said "1100." I was like, OK, but 1100 in what time? Like BC or AD? I was trying to figure out, relative to 2020 on earth, in my dimension, where in time are we? What a ridiculous question...BC or AD....ugh! Anyway, I was also thinking at this point, I should be able to make anything happen that I want! So I looked at the dingey hallway in the basement where we were, and I pointed and was like, FLOWERS!! Well, no flowers grew, but it was as if my finger became a laser pointer that painted images of rabbits the hallway wall. Well, OK, that's a good start I guess. Then, we were in a room with a bunch of other women in the basement. Things began to get blurry at this point, but someone said something about an asteroid destroying a planet, so I freaked out and was like, Which planet?! Which dimension?! When?! Then, these other women seemed to get upset with me, and I began trying to explain that what they said about the asteroid was scary, and me asking for my details was because I was scared, etc. Then things got even more hazy and I remember thinking/saying, Uhoh, I'm having trouble seeing, things seem less real.... Like as if they could help me stay there, but then was back in my body.

12 July 2020

Out of body experience - astral projection

I think I might have phased in. There was a strong, fast spinning motion, as if my entire bed was spinning. Then I was moving/floating horizontally, but I didn't feel the hands carrying me. I began to tentatively open my eyes, and it seemed like I was sitting on a moving cart that someone behind me was pushing, and we were moving through a basement or somewhere with a lot of tools and equipment. Like as if Home Depot were in a basement of a building. I think I was startled by all the things that seemed like tools, and probably felt a little scared. I felt an invisible arm wrap around my upper body from behind me, as if keeping me propped up but also making me feel safe. There was a door, and a man opened the door for me and the person pushing me - who turned out to be an adorable elderly Black lady! I wanted to give her a big hug but I just smiled and tried to shut up and not interfere with the process. She went through the door first, then it was my turn. I looked down, and the ground, outside, was like 10 feet below us. The man then was standing outside the door, and helped me down. He reached up with his arms to help me, I crouched down and put my hands on his shoulders, and hopped down. I was smiling, because he was helpful and nice, and I felt happy and taken care of. It seemed like we were at a massive outdoor pool, or a beach - sometimes it seemed like both, the clarity between the two was blurry. As we walked toward it, the guy from the door handed me a kickboard. Seemed the point was probably to show me how to feel water, be in water, etc, I'm guessing. The elderly Black helper got in and seemed to be enjoying floating in a floaty-device and doing laps with her friends. I stood back  by the water's edge because I wasn't sure how to swim without a bathing suit! But I looked down to see I was automatically now wearing one, and I got in with my kickboard. I could really FEEL the water, and I remember marveling at how I could feel it. I did a few laps with the kickboard, but I didn't even have to kick. It was as if the kickboard had an invisible motor on it, and just pulled me along, back and forth, in the water. My helper was going under the water a bit, but I was too nervous and unsure at this stage. I actually was worried that if I did that, my physical body would start correspondingly holding its breath. Soon I was back in my body.

NOTE: before I got in the water, while I was just standing around, I had a weird encounter with two blonde young women. The first one approached me, and I asked, "Do I know you?" I'm not sure what she said. I told her I was at this location for the first time. That I was very new at all this, and that I was still at the level of "trying to keep my eyes open so I can see" - something like that. For some reason she seemed annoyed or way too cool for me. She said something that seemed insulting and rude and walked off. Then from behind me came a much taller blonde woman. I asked what the first woman had said, but she didn't want to tell me. I remember clearly telling her that I'd really prefer to know. Then the taller woman seemed irritated with me, too! She said we'd met before, and seemed upset that I didn't remember her. I tried calling after her as she walked away, apologizing, sometimes these experiences are a blur and I don't remember! Why are folks getting so upset?!

11 July 2020

Out of body experience - lucid dreaming - possible astral projection

Quite a hodge-podge this morning. I'm not sure if I had a ton of lucid dreams, or managed to project a bit, or a combination of the two. I first seemed to "spin" really fast out of my body, and I asked to be taken wherever I needed to be, to learn what I need to learn right now. I slowly started to float across my room, and before I even was taken out of the confines of my bedroom I was back in my body.

Well. OK, then! Thanks for that enlightening experience. Not sure how to interpret that.

Then, again not sure if this was lucid dreaming or if I'd managed to project, but I asked for healing. This was the first time I directly asked for my physical body to be healed. It seemed like there was a series of experiences. The first one I remember, there seemed to be some male, shadowy figure, on my left. It seemed like something was being "done", but I can't remember what. After whatever was "done," what he said was that there was a tumor in my brain, I think on the left side. He said that it had been there 19 years, but nobody would have been able to see it until now. It's possible he said it had been there since I was 19, but 19 years ago I was 20, so it's around that time. I was horrified and scared that there was something serious like a tumor that needed to be addressed, and he left the problem there. In response he said, "If I took it out you would kill yourself."

?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?

During this or another session, I was being shown something representing illness in my body. I could see red, covering almost my entire body. Like as if I was seeing my aura, and red seemed to be interpreted as bad.

At some point, I was so upset about the guy leaving a tumor in my brain, that I asked to be taken to someone else who would heal my body. There was a bevy of weird experiences, including men throwing pencils at me and stabbing me with pens. One of the men was doing this to me because his parents didn't believe him when he said he loved himself. I yelled up to him that if he stopped throwing the pencils at me, I would tell him how to prove to his parents that he really loves himself. He stopped attacking, and I told him to tell his parents that it's obvious that he loves himself because he went to medical school.

In another weird experience, I was being bitten by a tiger, on my left forearm. I struggled for a bit, and then I turned to the tiger and said, I'm sorry, I should have respected you. The tiger became nice and asked me, OK, so what should we do? I said, Well, you could stop biting me. And he was like, Oh, right! And let go of my arm.

I then, while waiting for whatever next weird experience would happen, I decided to see if I could just roll-out into my room to try to see the tarot card I left on the shelf again (I wrote about this in another thread).

Anyway, after looking at the two cards and committing what I "saw" to memory, I tried to go to my roommate's cat to heal her (poor little thing isn't doing too well right now). I went through my closed bedroom door, and managed to get outside my roommate's bedroom door, but was sucked down, and sent somewhere else. I was yelling the whole time, No! I need to heal the cat! I need to heal the cat! It seemed like I approached a very large room with high ceilings, like a medical treatment center. The people in charge seemed to be Asian. One young woman came toward me and asked, "What are you doing here?" She almost seemed annoyed. I said, "I don't know, I was brought here." She told me to wait, and stay on my side of the line. I looked down, and there was a white line on the floor, which seemed to demarcate those waiting from those already admitted, or being helped or seen. I was handed some sheets of paper, I can't remember what was on them. I don't know why they keep handing me pieces of paper with words when I obviously can't peruse them LOL. Then I was back in my body.

This *may* have been a place I had been before, this morning, during my hazy Try To Get Healed lucid dream/projection extravaganza. I'm not sure. It SEEMED like she asked what I was doing there because I was back, as in, I'd been there before, but this morning was so hazy I really am not sure at all.

I'm not surprised that you didn't feel a "bump" when you transitioned back; in the higher level experiences like Phasing, you most normally don't get any physical transition symptoms, sometimes yes, but mostly not.

Glad I read thru this thread because this answers something I'd been wondering about. When getting back from classic vibrations-->float out of body, my physical body feels a very specific way. Heavy, bone tired, almost like I feel the aftereffects of tingling. But the times where it seems to be more phase origination, my physical body doesn't seem to feel that way (so far), so I was like, hm, I don't feel that Feeling, maybe that was just a dream. But if different methods lead to different sensations (or none) in the physical body upon returning, then that answers that =)

GrumpyRabbit,

Wow, a lot to unpack here. I spent two hours last week and an hour last night typing responses to this and another thread of yours only to have my computer crash and lose them...what frustration! I'm on my IPad tonight.

Oh no I'm so sorry! What a bummer, but thank you for having tried so diligently to try to respond to some other thread of mine. I appreciate the attempt =)

Quit thinking about OBE from a "physical" perspective.

You are totally right. See my above funny story above about the "bathing suit"!

a type of feedback distortion similar to hypnogogia or sleep paralysis (hence the guy who pestered you with unhelpful comments).

I've been wondering about this. Like whether he was a Helper Spirit there for a reason, or just a hallucination with no level of reality. But you know how when we're Out There, we still have tactile sense perception? I FELT this guy/thing. He gave me a big hug, and I remember thinking, man this is great, quarantine has meant no hugs! No human contact! I want to be hugged forever! That felt very real - unless hallucinations, even if they're not another helper entity, can also be felt?

Fun, right?!

Yes! And profound and life changing, to boot!

The later ones, the Phasing types...they are cleaner and more clear; difficult in new and different ways, but a step up.

I may not be clear on what phasing is. It seems like it's entering the nonphysical from a meditative state of "noticing" right? It goes through and past the stage of the hypnogic imagery behind the eyelids. Sometimes it seems to go that way, other times it's the classic "floating up out of the body" way. Sometimes it seems like a weird combination of the two. Like I phase in but there's also some vibration/spinning, and then I start floating horizontally, feet first - like Lumaza says, like being pulled by the ankles! In those experiences, however, I don't feel the invisible disembodied hands! Honestly I kinda miss the hands, because that first moment of feeling them carry me was possibly the most transformational moment in my entire life. I hope they come back.

If you want some real fun, try looking into a mirror.

I looked into a mirror in the astral just this morning! I looked like myself but was dressed like a harlot (oddly...this has happened twice, I'm not sure....what that means...) -- is there a difference between looking at oneself in the mirror in some weird astral place, versus looking at, say, a mirror "in my apartment" - which is I guess a weird energy double of my apartment. What happens then?!

Fascinating conversation! So many thoughts:

in the NP there is no space time continuum, everything exists here and now, the only difference is where is our awareness tune to. And we observe it as a point in time from our perspective.

Lightbeam, does this mean it's theoretically possible to tune our awareness more clearly to our physical reality here on earth?

In a NDE you have already abandoned or are still in the process of abandoning your "physical vessel" for good. Now you are in what they call in Buddhism the "Bardo" state.

Lumaza, what about people who aren't having NDEs - people experiencing trauma. Psychology calls it "dissociation", and extreme dissociation is when people describe themselves floating above their bodies, looking down on the scene. This happens to people who have been in terrible car accidents, people being raped, etc. They're alive, but the horror and shock of their experience is obviously lurching them out of their bodies, because being fully in their bodies is too threatening at the time. They're not in a bardo state and not about to die - but they seem to have perfect clarity about what's going on. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

You are right about how a stage of phasing is hypnogotic imagery appearing "behind the eyelids" as it were, and then this leads to suddenly *being* somewhere else. I haven't had great success reading anything while out, either, so I wonder why They keep handing me sheets of paper with words on them! Part of my thinking with the tarot is that there is so much distinctive imagery. I figured, even if I can't read the words, or see numbers, hopefully I can remember the pictures, and that will tell me what the card is. No dice yet, obviously!

And further, Lumaza, your point about letting go of one's "physical orientation" couldn't be more apt! Just the other day (I am seriously behind updating my Journal thread of APs!) I was taken to something that was either a beach or a large pool, so large it seemed we were at the beach and it was the ocean. They obviously wanted me to go swimming. And I stood there at the edge of the water feeling helpless because while they handed me a kickboard...I was worried about a bathing suit! Where do I change? Do I just jump in with my clothes on? Do I just take my clothes off?? Then I looked down and saw I was magically wearing a bathing suit, and I got in.

Well, "coincidentally," later that day, I think this was yesterday, I watched a talk someone somewhere in this forum posted of William Buhlman, where he talked about how silly it is that when people die, they often still manifest as MALE HUMAN, or FEMALE HUMAN. Like...why? There are no bodies. There's no gender. Welp, I wound up just laughing at myself as I watched his talk, given how very concerned I was that very morning about "bathing suits" and "potential nudity"!

Silly Rabbit =) 

Thank you, Lumaza and Athensis! This is all really helpful. Also, it brings a few more questions to mind.

I'm thinking of those accounts of people having NDEs or being thrown from their bodies due to a shock trauma, like a car accident - they, too, float above the scene and look down on themselves. I know that people who have these experiences, whether they are unconscious or clinically "dead", can report with great accuracy conversations that were going on, things happening in the hallway, etc. So, it seems like it must be possible to truly be in our world, just floating around like a ghost (as it were) - right?

If so...how did that happen? How did they leave their bodies, but still be HERE and perceive things so accurately? Is there a way that, with time, we can do that, too?

And, just wondering what everyone's theories are about why these inaccuracies happen. Like, do people/experts in this tend to think it's more on the side of "we don't have sufficient skill to perceive things accurately" or, "The Powers That Be are not letting us see things accurately for some higher reason".

So, among all the times I've managed to astral project (which I take to be those times I was taken somewhere by the invisible hands after I stated where I wanted to go, or when I was sent somewhere before I got a chance to say anything), I have twice used the roll-out method to stay in my room. I put a tarot card face-up on a high shelf. I wanted to float up there to see it, so I can have at least one instance of validation for myself.

I'm trying to figure out what's happening and why it's all going wrong. Here are my two experiences below, and here are the possibilities that might be involved:

1) I'm rolling-out into my room, but have not yet developed the capacity to see things accurately
2) I'm rolling-out into my room, but for some reason am being kept from getting this validation for myself
3) I'm not actually ending up in my room but in some other place that I think is my room, and kinda looks like my room, but isn't
4) I'm rolling-out into my room and then somehow transitioning into a lucid dream where it kinda looks like my room, but with false details
5) Something else???

8 July 2020

Tried the roll-out method, as I wanted to stay in my room and look to the tarot card as validation. I reached out and felt for my desk, and the side of my bed, as I rolled and moved down, to keep track of where I was. I got out, and went to go look at the card. I'm not sure if I was really in my room or something else weird happened. There was a guy in my room that tried to alert me to the fact that me, my physical body, was getting up and basically "sleep walking" so to speak. I told him to help me, I couldn't deal with my body right now, I had to use my chance to look at the tarot card! I had trouble hearing the guy talk. It was like his mouth was moving, but I couldn't hear him. Then I commanded myself/body to get back into bed - thankfully it listened to me and laid back down. I went to the shelf to look at the card, which should have been face up. But it was face down. Underneath it was a second card. Both cards didn't have a proper image on the front. Effectively, they both had two "back of card designs" on them. I held the two cards and was upset, I asked the guy in my room why I couldn't see what the image was? He said some weird clue, "The ear is on the wrong side for the head," as if this would help me figure out which card it was. He seemed to talk to me more about who he was, but I either couldn't hear, couldn't understand, or don't remember. Obviously, there is only one tarot card on my shelf, and it's face up, and my physical body never got up and walked around while I was out, so I have no idea what "level" of reality I was operating at, and why I saw the clearly false things I did, when I was theoretically in my room.

I did not look at the card, since I had no real information as to what it might be. I left it on the shelf to try again.

11 July 2020

In and out of weird lucid dreams (I think) all morning, I was laying in bed waiting to transition to my next weird dream experience, when I wondered if I could actually just get out of my body. I tentatively began moving my right energy arm, reaching out slowly to see if I could reach over and grab the edge of my desk. As soon as I felt it, I knew I could get up and disengage fully from the physical body. I immediately floated up to the shelf to look at the card. I STILL saw two cards, even tho it was still the same single card. This time, however, I saw them face-up (slight improvement!). I saw that the two cards were 3 of Wands, and Strength. However, the images were clearly not from my deck (Rider-Waite-Smith). I remember specifically that I looked at the image for the 3 of Wands and marveled at it, trying to remember every detail, thinking, wow, this is a fascinating representation of this card! I said the names of the two cards to myself over and over, so I would remember. I was clearly aware of the fact that there was only supposed to be one card, but even out of my body, I was hoping to myself that at least one of the ones I "saw" was correct!

No surprise but when I got up and checked, it was obviously not either of those cards. Not even close. At least this time I wasn't seeing other bogus things like my physical body wandering about!

Leads to further questions: Have you guys experienced similar problems, where you see obviously false things like this? Is this a problem that resolves over time, as you gain more skills? Have you come to the conclusion that you were kept from seeing things accurately, intentionally, for some reason? Do you have any advice on how to get better seeing RTZ details accurately? What do you think is going on?

Hiya Bloodshadow

I'd have my astral arms out waving around,

Just stumbled on this thread and wanted to say I laughed out loud when I read this part! Sounds familiar =)

Very interesting, thank you for sharing those =)

Very cool! Have you seen lions before at certain times? Or, are there times when you've been shown certain animals?

you will eventually start getting awaken by vibrations in the middle of your sleep phase, you will become very aware, only your body will be fully asleep, so you can freely get out and explore the non-physical.

This is exactly how it seems to go for me. One thing I will add is that while I was already a meditator (transcendental meditation), I think perhaps the single biggest thing that made this start happening for me was doing the affirmations. I had been reading Robert Bruce's book. I started doing the affirmations, and honestly I think I had only done them a week tops, maybe a little less than a week, and that's all it took. One morning I was tossing and turning, very tired but could not go back to sleep for the life of me. I kept tossing and turning, twilight in and out, never really succumbing. Then suddenly I snapped "awake" because one of my legs was clearly....floating straight up toward the ceiling. Since then I've snapped awake because a limb has floated loose, or the vibrations started, etc. So, during all those times, I wasn't actively *trying* to get out of my body in those moments. The only thing I can pinpoint is that I had clearly verbalized my *intention* for the past week-ish. I did the affirmation as much as possible. 30 mins a day, 60 mins a day, that sort of thing. By gum, I think it worked! I was skeptical that something so simple could be effective, but I'm pretty convinced by now.