Messages

I was raised in a pretty average moderately conservative Protestant home.  We left my first church when I was pretty young when it began to collapse internally, for reasons I'm still not sure of.  In the years that followed I tried every church nearby at least once, Catholic, Methodist, Assembly of God, non-denominational, Lutheran, etc, but my experiences at the two main churches we finally setlled on were behind most of the reasons I left church for good.

My family ended up at an Assemblies of God church that I found reasonably enjoyable; I liked the music, and the pastor's preaching style.  Well, that all changed when I began going through some personal issues during a dark time in my life.  As I was still relatively new to this place, and an extremely private person in general, I took extra precautions that my personal information not become public; there were people there I knew from other circles that I definitely didn't want finding out in any case.  At the time I didn't want random strangers praying for me or whatever; I just wanted to be left alone to get through things in my own way.  In the months that followed I debated whether to go back, and decided to try getting in touch with the pastor to find out exactly what was said/printed, and who told him.  He responded by making a judgmental statement about not having seen me in church lately, acted like I was completely wasting his time, and didn't actually answer any of my questions.  At this point I decided I wouldn't be going back there.

Around the same time I was semi-regularly attending another church with some friends.  Their worshipping style was significantly more, ah, active than I was used to; my style is much more introverted and reflective.  I would've been just fine with that if they could have accepted me just as I accepted them, but that ended when their pastor started making comments, publicly putting me on the spot for these differences that were making me feel self-conscious enough as it was.  I'm not a big fan of being put on the spot, so that was the last time I went there too.

After that I decided to take a break from the whole scene and evaluate my beliefs and such on my own -- this break has now lasted almost 8 years, and the one time I set foot in a church since then was a favor to someone else.  This has all come as a blessing in disguise, however.  A lot has happened in my absence, including falling back in love Christ and his message, yet coming to a lot of independently researched conclusions that would probably be considered rather unorthodox.  As for church, I have decided it does not fulfill many, if any of the purposes for which it was instituted by Christ.  I'm not just one of those people who goes sour on church because of the conduct of its people either -- I believe its very structure is what makes the modern mainstream church system inherently flawed to the core.  As such, I have no use for it anymore, at least until I either find or start one that is structured and functions the way it was intended to in the 1st century.

quote:
What is my perception of Satan?
He is the lord of this earth, the creator of mankind, the true God of humanity.

On what do you base your perception?

quote:there are in fact many gods that make up "YHWH", although on of them is probably called jehova.

Actually, "Jehovah" is simply an anglicized version of YHWH... they just changed the Hebrew letters to their closest English equivalents, and added some vowels.  Same with Jesus, whose Hebrew name was Yeshua.

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As for "jesus"? He most probably did not exist. Either he did not exist at all, or he was in fact just a normal man.

I think I find your first claim even more extraordinary than the claim that a man rose from the dead.  How do you explain all the accounts of his life that were circulating towards the middle of the 1st century?  What would be the motive for making the whole story up, especially since professing it could often get one tortured and killed in horribly nasty ways?  If he was a normal man, then how did he manage to alter the course of history, while all the other numerous would-be messiahs during that period quickly faded into obscurity?  If he didn't rise from the dead, then presumably his many opponents could have easily produced a body and ended the whole movement before it started -- why did this not happen?  How do you explain the sudden change in his followers, from a depressed and sorry bunch who had just lost their leader, to a devoted group with a purpose, ready to die for their beliefs, who swept across the Roman empire relatively quickly?

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JHVH and his angels are psychic feinds, when a christian dies, he is simply procesed into a soul factory. Angels also feed off mages who are stupid enough to stick with them, and also normal christians.
JHVH and his angels are concerned with the destruction of humanity, which they will attempt on the so called "day of judgement".
However, Satan is in love with humanity and he will come back and personally rip a new arsehole for this pathetic excuse for a "God".
Satan was also the sumerian diety "Enki" and the egyptian diety "Ptah". The pagan gods astaroh/ishtar,inana, beelzebub/baal, and many others are what have been branded as so called "demons". They are in fact the true and original Gods of humanity.

What is your source for all this information?

quote:Originally posted by thankful

Hi Palehorse,

The reference about Daniel is in Daniel 5:11 where it says Daniel was "made master of the magicians, astrologers, Chaldeans and soothsayers".  This is probably because he was more skillled than the rest of them and so was put in charge of them.

Ah... yeah, but Daniel himself is only portrayed as interpreting dreams, posessing wisdom and such, not necessarily practicing magic himself.  Also, I'd imagine when you're a Hebrew living in Babylonian exile, and the king offers you the third highest position in the empire, you take it without asking questions... especially when your failure to do so would probably win you a trip to the executioner.  Heh.

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Sometimes the bible says not to divine and then others times we see His people divining, like when the apostles drew lots to replace Judas as apostle.  This was a big decision, but they prayed and believed God would show his choice.  After this event, there is no reference to divining, probably because the Holy Spirit was given, but sometimes I wonder if it's O.K. in decisions in which you can't get a "word" from the Holy Spirit.  I know many Christians "throw out the fleece", this really isn't any different.

Yeah, I've been thinking about that while we've been having this conversation.  There's definitely a lot of this sort of thing throughout the Bible, which makes for a lot of grey area that most Christians don't seem willing to acknowledge.  In particular, there seems to be a lot of things condemned in the OT, that in reality was simply a case of writings by the northern and southern kingdoms taking cheapshots at each other's customs and religious practices in the name of God.  (At this point I must plug the great book "Who Wrote the Bible? by Richard Friedman, which is where I'm getting most of this info.)

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I just want to be a Berean like in the N.T. and find out what's really what and not accept the status quo, just because we were taught to accept certain things. Sometimes you really have to look at things with a whole new paradigm to get at the truth of something.

Absolutely.  For this reason, I predict that whatever form the Christianity of 100 years from now takes, the next big movement will take place outside the mainstream institutional churches.  They're set up in such a way that by definition encourages spiritual stagnance and passivity, and I think we're already seeing signs that the human need for true spirituality won't settle for that anymore.

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Have you ever heard of the Akashic records?  If it really contains the history of the world and every thought, event, etc.  then it should be possible to find out what's what once you're developed enough.  This is one of my goals.

Yes I have, and that's one of the big reasons for my interest in this too.  I would LOVE to take a peek back at 1st century Palestine and get a lot of questions answered, assuming it's possible.  Another possibility that both excites me and freaks me out a little bit -- if time is non-linear, and assuming Jesus was as spiritually adept as we think he was -- would he be able to see me when I went back for a visit?  Now *there's* one to wrap your mind around, heh.  

Y'know what though, one thing I was worried about was that since the astral is said to be so subjective and malleable, and there's SO much interpretation, bias and vested interests surrounding the life of Jesus, was how hard it might be to find out any truly objective facts.  Even if I did pull it off, I think I'd probably doubt myself and wonder if my subconscious simply made the whole thing up.

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I'm having the same experience in reading things about magick, I keep saying to myself "hey, that's in the bible, and that's in the bible."  I'm thinking that magick is a word that directs a force that people call chi, orgone, psi, mana, etc.  Some same the Hebrews call this force, ruach.  So is magick directing this force to accomplish your will?

I think it very well could be, but I also think that's probably why it was forbidden.  For most of us, having the power to get what we want on demand could be pretty disasterous.  That's why it's said "seek ye first the kingdom of God, and His righteousness, THEN all these things shall be added unto you."  

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There is so much to learn, and explore and learn I will!!!

Indeed there is.  And it definitely sounds like you're on the right track.

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As far as the kundalini,  the bible says that the Holy Spirit is like a refiner's fire and also that He transforms us, this seems to be the testimony of people with raised kundalini, they feel they are different people, feel they are being purified and get psychic gifts.

I agree that the after-effects and the imagery associated with the infilling of the Holy Spirit, and Kundalini raising, are very similar.  However, I still see big differences between how the events themselves are portrayed.  With the HS, it always seems to be a voluntary thing, and I've never heard any negative effects reported.  With the Kundalini, there are reports of spontaneous and premature raisings that the body can't handle, which are said to cause serious damage.  In light of that, I'm really not sure if the two concepts can be reconciled.  If the HS is a manifestation of God, then I don't know why God would fill someone in this way if He knew they couldn't handle it, and would suffer actual damage.

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 What if the bible just has different wording for things that are the same in other cultures?  Food for thought.

Yeah, the above nonwithstanding, I do think there's a lot of that in there.  There's a ton of material in the prophets, and from the apostles for instance, that sounds suspiciously like AP and related phenomena.

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Do you have OBE's or are you doing the NEW exercies from this site?  You sound like you're a Christian that wants to find things out for himself.  Go Bro!

I've never had an actual OBE myself, but I believe I've come very close.  For as long as I can remember I've had the occasional instance of sleep paralysis, a few lucid dreams, and some other odd experiences, some of which I described in this thread: http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13368.  I originally came here out of a desire to further explore things I was already experiencing spontaneously.  I've been experimenting a bit with NEW since I read Astral Dynamics a few months ago, but I've been pretty inconsistent with it.

You're right though -- I'm a Christian, but one who questions everything and isn't willing to take anyone's word for it.  My belief system is based about half on trying to figure out and implement what was originally believed and practiced by the 1st century Church, and half on trying to find Truth out for myself via firsthand experience.  This is why I'm majoring in religion and hopefully making a career out of it -- I figure any other career would divert my time and attention away from my search for truth, whereas this one would allow me to simultaneously satisfy both my hunger for knowledge and my need to make a living.  And, as for firsthand experience, that's why I'm so interested in AP.

Wow, great stuff there.  I read the whole thing, and found that just about everything they had to say are things I've either been saying or otherwise knew to be true on some level for a long time.  I'll definitely be poking around that site more, and possibly buying the book.  Thanks for sharing.

quote:Originally posted by thankful


I think what we're really getting saved from is ourselves and the consequences of our own actions.  What a loving God!

Well said, and thanks for reading my essay.  Glad ye liked it.  []

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What are your views on the bible condemning magick?

Well, I think it's deeply tied in with God's intentions with the ancient Israelites.  He was in the process of introducing Himself to a world in which the idea of Him (as a monotheistic, transcendent deity) was completely foreign.  As such, He needed to develop a following of people who were completely separate from their neighbors in mind, body and soul.  Magic at that time was deeply intertwined with Pagan ritual, and was thought to operate through the power of Pagan deities, so it's easy to see why it was so forcefully condemned.

It's interesting that the views I've been developing since I showed up here have actually given force to this argument.  Meaning, if you're the true, pre-existent creator, trying to reveal yourself to humanity, and you've got all these thought-form beings running around in the form of Sumerian, Babylonian, Assyrian deities, then what do you do?  You try to cut off their main source of energy: magic and ritual.

Does that mean magic is okay today?  Well, I think that's up to individual judgment, but it's a leap that I for one am not yet willing to make.  Though, I also have to say that the definition of "magic" is extremely blurred, probably due to our much greater body of knowledge de-mystifying much of the world around us.  Yesterday's magic is today's placebo, and probably tomorrow's useful tool.

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Also, Daniel was a magician and practiced occult arts and this was not condemned.

Example?

quote:I see Kabbalah all through the New Testament.

Eh, as far as I know, Kabbalah was not developed as a body of Jewish mystical literature until a lot later.  I would say that if it is in there, it's only a product of the writers being Jewish, and thus practicing a distinctly Jewish-flavored mysticism.

quote:Paul talks about the "mysteries".  It amazes me how many people put down the Bible when it is one of the most spiritual books around.   I think they just haven't read it with spiritual eyes.

 

True, but now you're getting into theology, mysticism, miracles... all rather different from magic, IMO.  Note: you might disagree on the mention of miracles, but I see a fundamental different between the way Jesus worked miracles, and the way a witch might cast a spell.  The witch is attempting to manipulate energy for a specific effect.  Whereas, I believe Jesus simply had the power to inspire a person's innate ability to heal himself, as evidenced by his signature phrase "your faith has healed you, now go in peace." Another interesting example is in Mark 6:5 -- Jesus was in his own hometown, but "could do no miracle there" because of the people's lack of faith.

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As a Christian and a searcher for truth and reality, as I've been reading a lot of metaphysical stuff, I keep saying "hey, that's in the bible, and that's in the bible".  The bible is full of paranormal stuff.  Visions, dreams, healings, prophecy, miracles, etc. etc. etc.

Indeed... that's why I don't understand the typical conservative evangelical Christian response to any mention of the paranormal.  However, I'm still not convinced that magic fits on that list, or that a Christian could use it while still being true to his religion.

 

quote:I've often wondered if on the day of Pentecost when the room they were in was shaken, if this was not really the vibrations you get before an OBE and the tongues of fire were not seen in the astral.

Hm, very interesting idea; hadn't thought of that before.  I had an experience myself a few weeks ago where it felt like the air mattress I was sleeping on was being forcefully shaken from side to side, but I'm pretty sure the sensation originated internally.  So, your idea isn't too big of a jump.

quote: I've wondered if being filled with the Spirit is not really the Kundalini rising.  And as the Kundalini rises and the sidhis are manifest, is this not the gifts of the Spirit?  And love, peace patience and the other fruit of the Spirit, are these not the transformation that happens when the Kundalini rises?

I only know what little I've read here about kundalini, but I'd have to disagree.  Being filled with the spirit is something portrayed as being initiated by God, whereas people have described spontaneous kundalini rising that really screwed them up physically and mentally.  Somehow I don't think God is accidentally dumping too much Spirit into people and causing them meltdowns, heh.


 

quote:Maybe the Essenes always wore white because they knew this was the best for their aura and were vegetarians because this freed up energy for spiritual pursuits.

Yeah, they're an interesting group, especially with their possible connections to James and John the Baptist.  I plan on learning as much as I can about them in the future.

quote:Meaning you can be as close to God as you wanna be, and if the teaching is hidden doesn't that mean occult?    I really believe Jesus came to show us the "Way" and not start a new religion.

Heh, I'm involved right now in a debate on another forum, with a guy who believes that mysticism, and anything hidden or having anything to do with the idea of gnosis, is completely anti-Christian.  I raised many of the same points you have... and he hasn't answered yet.  This should be fun.  :X

quote:
 If Jesus nailed our Karma to the cross then Wow that is Good News and that is awesome!!! Any thoughts?

I think you've raised some excellent points, and are really on to something with much of what you've said.

quote:Originally posted by James S


I sometimes wonder what most christians think of one of the most important "rules" of whichcraft - "do what you will but harm none!" I wonder how much ministers in days gone by considered this rule as they were killing people accused of being witches.

Actually, this is only part of the Wiccan Rede, and Wicca has only been around for about fifty years.  As such, not all witches are bound by any such rule, and I've seen quite a few practitioners of witchcraft have a good hearty laugh at the expense of anyone who would suggest that witchcraft is all flowers and sunshine.  Even Wicca has its share of nastiness -- in its 161 laws, it condemns those who break any of said laws to "the hell of the Christians" (which just amuses the shyte out of me for some reason).

For those who killed *anyone* in the name of Christ, it'd be much more relevant to point out his own commands against violence of any sort.  Those who committed these acts were doing so completely against the teachings of Christ, and, in their lust for power and authority, often killed many other sincere Christians too.

quote:Originally posted by aryanknight666


Good intentions? Matt. 10:34-36, luke 12:51, Isaiah 13:9-16
Jesus said that he came to bring the sword, to destroy families and turn parents against their children, to turn nations against nations, to divide nations, to divide single races and to cause conflict. He said he would not have any pity on pregnant or nursing women when he came to take vengenace, and that people would watch their women being raped and their children being cut to peices before their eyes.

Context, context, context.  Jesus wasn't *aiming* to turn people against each other -- he was warning his followers that this was what would inevitably happen.  It's not really all that surprising -- once some Jews started embracing Christianity, the non-Christian Jews often reacted violently, sometimes even causing conflict within families.  This is what happens anytime you introduce a radical new ideology to conservative religious people.  It'd be a bit like having a modern fundamentalist Christian family where one member converted to LaVeyan Satanism.  Said member would likely be disowned or worse.

As for the bits about vengeance, the "end of the age," etc., you're again ripping this violently out of context.  All of these were predictions about the imminent Roman-Jewish war in 70AD.  His message consisted of warning anyone who would listen that the old order of things was about to be done away with, so get out while you still can and don't be swept up in the consequences.  There is evidence that the Christians in Jerusalem understood Jesus to mean exactly what I'm telling you he meant -- as soon as they saw the armies approaching, they fled into the mountains as per Jesus' explicit instructions.  This is recorded by the historian Eusebius.

Those who chose to stay brought about their own destruction; Jesus needn't have lifted a finger.  Ironically thinking that this was their "battle between light and darkness" in which the "coming" messiah would deliver victory, they slaughtered the Roman garrison stationed there, provoking them into all out war in 63AD.  By the year 70 (7 year tribulation ring a bell, anyone?) the walls fell, the temple was destroyed, the city razed to the ground, and all its inhabitants slaughtered, scattered or enslaved.

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Jesus taught only to jews, he did not teach to anyone else. He did not help non-jews.

The message of the gospel writers and Paul is that the ideal was for Jesus to come for the Jews, and have them be the "light" to the rest of the world.  What exactly do you think Jesus would have meant to the average Pagan outside a Jewish context, if he didn't first have a strong foundation of Jewish followers?  

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He reffered to non-jews as gentiles and (rabbid) dogs. Whenever a non-jew came to him for lessons or help, he degarded them by calling them dogs and chasing them away.

Chapter and verse, please.  For one, "Gentile" is not a derogatory term anymore than "Jewish" or "Christian" are.

Anyway, the only instance that comes to mind is the Greek woman in Matt 15.  Yes, he *did* call her a dog... but I have a theory that we're missing a lot by not knowing the tone of this conversation.  I get this impression by the fact that the woman is called a dog, yet strangely doesn't give up and storm off -- rather, she gives a persistent and rather witty reply.  My thought is that it's possible Jesus was being tongue-in-cheek when he called her a dog, as a way of poking fun at the senseless social prejudices of his fellow Jews, and the woman, who was in on the joke, gave him the answer he was looking for.  What's more, he didn't "chase her away" -- he replied that her strong faith had healed her daughter.

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Also how can the teacings of christ be for someone of any religion? He taught  he is the ONLY way to god, the only way through god is to him, anything else will get you thrown in the lake of fire. He critized people of other religions and their ways, and on the day of judgement he will cast people of all religions into the lake of fire.

No.  To correct all the errors here would require an essay unto itself.  Fortunately, I've addressed all the misconceptions about hell and the lake of fire in an essay I wrote a few years ago, heh.  If you're interested, it's at http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/palehorse13x/hell.html

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I would not work to earn a living. I would leave it up to "god" to give me money. When jesus and his disciples were hungry, they simply stole whatever food they wanted.
Matthew 6:25-34, Matt. 12:1-2, Mark 2:23, Luke 6:1-2.

And obviously no one minded, because no one accused them of stealing.  Ancient hospitality is funny that way.  However, they *were* accused of breaking the Sabbath, which was the whole point of what they did.  Jesus used it as an opportunity to point out that it was the spirit of the Sabbath, rather than the letter, that was important.

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I would spend any extra change on myself instead of perhaps dropping it to the needy on the streets.
Mark 14:3-7. Mark 14:7

He was commending a woman who did a nice gesture for him.  As a guy who could cause food to multiply on demand, I think he was entitled to enjoy a rare bit of good hospitality himself.

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I would hate my family and disrespect my mother. Jesus treated his mother with disrespect, rudely calling her "woman" when he spoke
John 2:4, 19:26

I've actually seen this a lot among ancient writers/speakers.  It appears to have just been a convention of their language, rather than being rude.

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I would not consider my bioligcal father to be my father. I would not call anyone on earth my father.
Matthew 23:9

It has been said, and I agree, that Jesus was aiming to create a "family" structure that went beyond the accident of birth that is one's biological family.  He was trying to create a family of believers who embraced each other as such by choice, looked out for each other, and joined to serve the community as a whole.

That said, I simply take this verse as a command against giving any one person too much spiritual authority.

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There are alot of others but I dont feel like mentioning them all.

Good, because I don't feel like refuting them all.  

Re: all the controversy on torture, killing and whatnot -- I recommend the book "Who Wrote the Bible" by Richard Friedman.  It really shows a lot of the historical context in which the Old Testament was written, and de-mystifies a lot of the text.  Among other things, it shows how parts of the OT (sometimes even parts that found their way into the same book) were written by rival kingdoms taking cheapshots at each other.  Much of the OT seems to have been written by fallible humans with similar political motives.

My point is that although I believe the true God is there as an underlying thread in the OT (particularly in the writings of the prophets, whose strict insistence on ethics and social justice don't make *anyone* look good), many of the things attributed to Him in those books are simply the same old story of a group using the excuse that "God is on their side" to commit inexcusable atrocity.  This, I think, was part of Jesus' purpose: to get rid of all these misconceptions, and demonstrate a true living example of who God is and what He wants from us.  God is love.

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The trouble is not so much with what Jesus himself taught, as he truly embodies the "love of god". The problem is more with what the founders of what we now know as Christian Church taught - Constantine and his mob. They are the ones that compiled the bible as we know it now, and twisted the teachings to suit their purposes.

Precisely.  Christianity did not go from a persecuted and staunchly pacifistic religion to an active persecutor of "heretics" itself until it was intitutionalized by Constantine, over four centuries after the life of Christ.  To put things in perspective, Christianity, as a rule, was strictly nonviolent for twice as long as America has been a nation.  Thus, the violence and persecution that ensued after the 4th century was a dramatic break from historical Christian practice.  If anyone can come up with a religion that lasted as long and had a better track record, then I'd love to hear about it.

quote:Originally posted by aryanknight666

The reason why spirit mediumship and contacting the dead was not condoned is because according to "god" you cannot contact the dead and the only people you will be contacting are demons.

Chapter and verse?

Actually, in 1 Sam. 28, King Saul consults with the Witch of Endor, and asks her to raise the spirit of Samuel.  When ol' Sam makes his appearance, he does appear rather ticked about having been disturbed from his eternal rest, but the text gives no indication that it was anyone other than him.

quote:It amazes me that as a christian you have not heard of inherent sin.

Oh, I have.  However, I also know that this doctrine did not come into being until several centuries after the life of Christ.

Even if the doctrine was true though, I fail to see why astral projection would be seen as inherently sinful.  If anything, the more prevalent historically Christian tradition (seemingly carried over from the Gnostics, oddly enough) is to see the *body* and its appetites as sinful, and long to leave it and its vices behind, so as to be reunited with God.

Not that I believe that either, though.  To me, the body is just a vehicle; a temporary gift (and occasionally a curse, heh) we can use to have experiences and learn lessons that wouldn't be possible otherwise.

quote:Originally posted by Rastus

Am I the only one that sees it?

The bible was re-written to stomp out competition.  The competition was mostly the ancient Celts and Pagans.  2 Commandments are specifically written to stomp out Pagan beliefs.  Interesting since the original Authors were Jewish.  Heck the original bible said "Everlasting Reincarnation" and was re-written to "everlasting life" by the emporer Constatine's wife because heaven has no value if you re-incarnate.  And heaven is the reward for the "faithful", no reward and what's the point?  And You can't have a Heaven if there's no Hell, I mean where's the incentive?

What's your source for these assertions?

In any case, I myself am a Christian who believes in Heaven, but not Hell.  A relationship with truth and the divine is its own incentive, regardless of the form it takes.

As for the original post, there is a lot in the Old Testament that we don't follow anymore; particularly stoning and various forms of animal sacrifice.  I think it's important to remember the goal of the OT and what YHWH was doing -- He was taking a small group of people and introducing them to ethical monotheism, a concept that was completely radical and unprecedented at the time.  In order for this to succeed, there had to be a complete break from any vestige or appearance of the old Pagan practices.  The results were occasionally harsh, but I believe it was the only alternative to utter failure.  As it was, the ancient Israelites lapsed back into Pagan practices numerous times in their history; this is documented all throughout the OT.

Also, if you look at some of the things God was trying to prevent, I think they make sense.  As many here would probably point out, consulting with spirits is potentially risky business, perhaps especially if you're an ancient person who is probably illiterate and uneducated, with very little solid knowledge of science.  Under those circumstances, I'm sure spiritual con-artists flourished even moreso than they do today.  Then there's the fact that if you really do manage to contact a spirit, you really have no idea what you're getting or what their intentions might be.  It'd be a bit like facing a dire situation in your life, and seeking advice from a random anonymous person on the internet, without knowing anything about their credentials.

That said, I think things are a bit different now than they were 5000+ years ago when these things were written.  As a Christian, I'm perfectly okay with things discussed here like astral projection and lucid dreaming, but on the grounds that I associate them with natural abilities inherent in human nature, and not with any sort of Pagan religious practice.

And, lest we forget, there are also numerous biblical passages which describe experiences of astral projection, mystical visions, prophecy, prophetic dreams, and the like.

Hee... here's my favorite.

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/subliminal.php

'Ello; sorry for taking so long to reply.

Iguma: thanks for your insight; I think you're probably on to something.  Whatever these "visions" are, they're at least benefitting me in that it gives me motivation to press on with the AP efforts.  

As for the flowers, no, I really have no idea who it might possibly be.  The only two dead people I know are both my grandpas who died about ten years ago.  However, the voice was female, and sounded a whole lot like a friend from highschool.  That seems really unlikely though; I lost touch with said friend soon after graduation.  That was about five years ago, and she's now married with kids, so I doubt she'd even *remember* my birthday if she ever knew it to begin with.  Then again, back then she also told me about premonitions and things that always seemed to happen to her, so I now think she probably had quite a bit of psychic potential.  So who knows?

While I'm thinking of it though... last night... holy hell.  I had just done some NEW, meditated for a bit and went to bed.  Well, I was at my girlfriend's place, sleeping on an air mattress in their family room.  As I was drifting off, I felt a spinning sensation in my head... and then it felt like two hands grabbed the corners at the feet of the mattress, and started wrenching them up and down, as if someone was trying to roll me off.

Problem is, I can't verify whether this was all in my head, or whether the mattress actually moved, because I was so tired at the time.  I think I'm leaning toward it being an AP-related exit sensation, because I'm pretty sure I would've been jolted into coherency if my mattress was really trying to throw me off, heh... I'd like to think that's what it was anyway, because that's significantly less unnerving than thinking something was trying to physically roll me out of bed.  But yeah, weirdness.

quote:Originally posted by izanagi

hmmn, interesting.

i wonder if you can remove zits that way... damn acne

Even if you could, is walking around with circled crosses all over your face for two months really all that much better?

quote:Originally posted by Neo_one

we should have some sort of saying that we could say when we like meet someone, i dont know what it would be, like just some weird saying, that the other person could finish if he/she AP's

This reminds me a lot of the early Christians who would draw half of the fish symbol in the dirt to identify themselves, and the person they'd just met would draw the other half.

So, I suggest that upon meeting another potential APer, we draw half of a life-sized portrait of Robert Bruce (or Monroe, if you prefer a bit of variety in your Roberts) in the dirt.  If the other party draws in the other half, you're golden.

Of course, that means a greeting could take several hours, depending on how much of a perfectionist you are, but...

[]

quote:Originally posted by asura

I found a news in a Turkish news site and i m posting it..

Sorry, but this is an urban legend.

http://www.snopes.com/religion/wellhell.htm

Hi Berserk.

Great post, and a timely one for me.  I've been thinking a lot lately about soul retrievals, Christianity, and how the two might relate to each other.  It's so ironic to me that as much as Jesus' ministry was carried out in the spirit of setting people free from spiritual bondage... even literally, according to 1 Peter 3:19 as someone already pointed out... while at the same time, the religion that bears his name has put more people in bondage to fear than perhaps any other to date.  I'm thinking mainly of the idea of eternal torment, which I believe is probably the one concept that has done the most damage to individual lives and Christianity as a whole since it was brought into the Church years after the death of Christ.  If anyone needs to be "retrieved," I can only imagine there are millions of Christians and those influenced by them suffering in some sort of Hell that we've created.

Unfortunately, to even entertain ideas of AP or soul retrieval is, to many modern Christians, inherently sinful.  What this means is that if there is indeed a focus 23 with people suffering therein, then they're going to be there for quite a while, because the very people who could help them out the most aren't interested.

This puts someone like me in an interesting position.  I think I'm somewhat unique in that I'm very much a Christian (albeit a rather unorthodox one) with a strong interest in theology, history, scriptures and all related subjects, to the point that I've made it my major and career goal.  At the same time, I'm completely open to the possibility of all the paranormal things we discuss in these forums, which most Christians don't seem to be.  I'd think that this would put me in a rather ideal position to be able to relate to someone that is stuck in some sort of hellish belief-system limbo thanks to the more distorted and fear-based side of Christian theology.  I know from personal experience what that kind of bondage is like during physical life; I can only imagine what it must be like in an environment where beliefs create reality.

All this has lead me to wonder if I'm being prepared to play such a role at some point in the future.  I'd certainly love for that to be the case, as I have a *very* strong desire to help set others free of all the fear and suffering my own religion has caused, but I suppose I should probably worry about just being able to get out of my body to begin with.  Siiiigh.  Heh.

quote:Originally posted by Hephaestus

Well thats just a load of tosh. Ive not read the article so can someone enlighten me as to where Robert Bruce says he got his info from?

I got the ideas mostly from the section in his OBE Treatise called "Death" as well as the article on "The Silence of our Dead" or something like that.  As for where he got it from, I'd imagine it comes from the same place most of his stuff does... personal experience.

quote:Originally posted by Moonburn33

i think you should deprive yourself of sleep more often.

Heh... work and school has often left me with no choice lately; thank gawd for spring break.  Sleep deprivation might make for some interesting (and/or incoherent) posts, but I get the impression that it's not very good for my AP efforts.

quote:Originally posted by Syke
Yeah i also read that. I believe it was in his online treatise on OBE's.
But it has been a while since i read it, i think he says you have enough energy left for about 7 days but thats goin by shady memory.

Of course this may conflict with religious belief, but... oh well.

Yeah, that sounds right.  And yeah, a lot of this stuff conflicts with my religious beliefs... but I try to take an "I'll know when I get there" approach to most claims, whether they're made by Paul of Taursus or Robert Bruce of Australia, heh.  Then again, I'm also not one of those people who thinks that being mistaken in one's beliefs is some sort of thought-crime worthy of an eternity of fiery punishment.  Until we either die or verify the truth via some other means, it's all essentially speculation and heresay anyway.

I do have a lot of thoughts circulating about this "intermediate" period after death, though... maybe I'll post on that tomorrow.

quote:Originally posted by astralspinner

According to a book I have on vampirism, it's actually pretty easy for a spirit to help itself to excess energy from living humans - especially when they're asleep.

I seem to recall RB mentioning somewhere about absorbing the excess energy large crowds of humans generate - like at a football game when somebody's just scored.

So by all accounts, there's enough of the stuff floating around anyway, without needing a bank for it.

After all, that's presumably how the parasites in the RTZ stay there when they're not alive..

Good points... but I'd wager that the vast majority of people who pass on don't have any idea about any of this.  Then again, I suppose they wouldn't know how to find or use such a bank either, and I don't have any idea how one would go about starting a decent PR campaign in the astral.  So hm.

quote:Originally posted by LogoRat

How do you know what you experience right now is real or not?!

Strictly speaking, I don't.  I used to wonder about this as a kid -- whether this thing I considered "reality" was just an elaborate hoax that had been built up around me, whether I was the only true consciousness that existed, whether I could even be sure of that, etc.  I was a weird little kid, man.  Still am, really.

Yeah, so I could just be a brain in a jar somewhere being stimulated by electrodes, or some deity's bad dream; the possibilities are endless.  The thing is, I've never had any reason to believe my senses are decieving me, and I'm constantly given further reinforcement by everyone else who is in general agreement about what the world is like and how it works.  So, it seems that it is in my best interest to live life as if what I'm percieving is true for the most part -- because after all, if you can't trust your own five senses, then what's left?  Granted, I'm open to alternate possibilities (astral projection included), but so far I haven't experienced anything like that for myself yet.  That means, for the time being, the score is physical life: 1, alternate reality: 0.  I'm in the process of trying to change that (which is why I'm here, of course) but the jury is still out, and it remains to be seen whether I'll have any luck.

I agree with Patrick about it being important (to me anyway) to figure out what the nature of this experience is.  One of the main reasons that drew me to the possibility of AP was the idea of verifying whether or not we are more than our physical bodies.  Of course, if AP is nothing more than a realistic lucid dream that takes place completely within one's mind, then that's all a moot point.

Additionally, if I ever manage to AP myself, some of the first things I want to do are in the RTZ, mostly having to do with certain people that I'd like to visit for various reasons.  One of them is a very good friend who currently lives several thousand miles away, and we were both intrigued by the possibility of being able to visit without having to buy a plane ticket.  Again, if all AP can give me is a realistic simulation of visiting her in my own imagination without any verifiable shared experience, then I'm wasting my time.

So, while there are a lot of things you can hypothetically do with AP that are useful regardless of whether the experience is internal or external of the body, there are also a lot of things that kinda depend on it being external.  

I'm very much encouraged by the many stories of shared experiences, and they've done a lot as far as motivating me to explore this... but I'm the sort of person who can't take anyone's word for it until it happens to me personally.  And so the quest continues...

quote:Originally posted by SomeBloke

I have a weird phenomenon that happens from time to time.  Sometimes when I wake up, usually after a bad 'dream', I see on the wall one or two spider-like creatures about the size of tarantulas.

Hiya SB,

That sounds a lot like what happens to me from time to time.  I've seen freakishly large spiders on the wall, my room glowing red, some sort of vaguely human shape crawling on the ceiling, something that looks like a face, and a goat's head floating in the middle of the room.  The latest one was a bit less freakish -- as I was falling asleep I heard a female voice call my name, and I jerked awake to see a gift basket of flowers hovering over my bed.  The odd part?  This was on the night of my birthday a few weeks ago.

It's always the same -- I'll jerk awake quickly for no apparent reason soon after falling asleep, and these things will be hovering or doing whatever.  Most of them look completely solid and real (though one time I put my hand through one just to see what would happen), and they slowly fade out as I stare at them.  Mine aren't connected to nightmares as far as I know, though... they usually happen too soon after I've drifted off to sleep, probably before I've had time to start dreaming.  Although, one morning my girlfriend told me that during the night I'd jerked awake, she asked me what was wrong, and I mumbled something about spiders and fell back asleep.  I don't remember any of this, but it does make me wonder...

As for what they might be... I'm as lost as you are.  Mine aren't connected to any particular fears of mine that I know of; I'm not afraid of spiders or anything like that.  The imagery itself often makes me slightly uneasy though -- it can be a tad unnerving to wake up and see a shadowy figure crawling on your ceiling, or a goat's head staring at you from above your bed, heh.  Lately they've just made me more curious than anything, though.

It was actually these "visions" that both got me interested in AP again, and at the same time made me wonder whether it was a wise thing to get into.  I figured these things were just a product of my tired mind, but if they aren't, do I really want to get outside my body and possibly meet whatever is causing them?  And so forth.

I've babbled on long enough... but in short, I wish I could tell ya what they were, but hey, at least you know you're not alone.