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Lysear is just a character from favourite author, Janny wurts. Her lysear is spelt lysaer, I like to pretend sometimes that the typo was intentional but unfortunately it is not, I missspelt it and it stuck!!! so everyone read "the curse of the mistwraith" by Janny wurts.

Yes, I always try to apply this to myself, but I am not always successful!

wouldnt you say that this is what magicians and witches etc are trying to do when they perform a spell in some circumstances? except, they do not project in order to do it.

"Lysear, the Elements are very real and many trained magicians work directly with them, astrally and mentally, so although it is true to say they have no *direct* (or rather *pure*) physical manifestation, they are not abstract either."

I disagree, just because magicians have used a system of elements for years and have found that they work well, doesnt mean that they are the building blocks of the universe, or that they are not an abstract concept. People have used these elements for so long, they could have manifested in the "astral plane" and thus became real to an extent. (incidentally, I also see the astral plane as an abstract concept.) or if you like, people have used them for so long, they have made a permanent hole in the collective conciousness of the world, and they have become the most effective system this way.

We do not really know the nature of the universe, we can only speculate on it, and the system of the elements, in my opinion, is just one of these speculations that we make.

"whatever you are"

ain soph ohr?
the main man
the man upstairs
YHVH

I have heard of it, it has become much more popualr recenty as far as I can tell. It sounds like my cup of tea, perhaps I will look into it when I have finished working through kraigs book.

as far as I know (which isnt very far!) chaos magick just looks to break through all the dogma surrounding magick, and break it down into the most basic system possible.

I havent heard the 5th element called akasha before, I like that word, i may use it more! I usually call it spirit.

I also have developed this method of walking out of your body. However, I found that you have to walk around for quite a while feofre getting exit symptoms, also really imagine you are there, use all your senses. I believe this confuses the body.

"The traditional elements of magic (Fire,Water, Earth, Air), are not to be confused with their physical counter parts. Magicians used these words because they best represented the characteristics of the 'invisible' forces which permeate all physical matter."


I like your reply, thanks for that. However I will have to disagree with you. Of course the spiritual elements are inextricably linked to their physical counterparts. It is from these physical "elements" that people of the past thought up the spiritual ones. Also, when considering the properties of the magickal elements, they are  based on the physical ones, eg. coolness and dryness for earth, warmth and moistness for air etc.

I agree with Frank on this one, come on people grow up, we're all here for a reason, not to insult each other.

yeah this tends to happen to me when I try to project and i have been laying down for a while, although I didnt know what it was until I read astral dynamics

Is the kabbalah good enough for us ? Yes. is every other form concievable to the human mind good enough for us? Yes. Do we truly really know how the universe works? I guess no, maybe someone does, or has done once in times past. Maybe the time of understanding is round the corner, maybe the only time we have a glimmer of how the universe manifests itself is when we die. Until then I will continue to delve into the mysteries in all shapes and forms and try to discover where we belong in the scheme of things.

thanks for that, I will take it into consideration, although the phenomenon hasnt occured over the last two sessions, so maybe its clearing up a bit. I have thought about really trying to open my 3rd eye, I did a tarot card reading to find out if this is a good idea, and the answer was negative at this time. I think I am in a period o transition at the moment in regards to my occult studies and this could be a product of that.

nobody really knows.

This idea is the basis behind a lot of occult practices, to have your spells come to fruitition in the physical world, it must first exist in the astral. I find myself controling what I think more as I delve deeper into the mysteries!

This is interesting because of a little technique I invented. I used to just sit down and shake my legs for a minute or two, then stop. I felt a big rush go up my legs and body. If this is true then could it be an important technique in energy generation ?

Suffolk England. thats as close as you get!

yeah, OBE nightmares are pretty bad. Once I was pottering around my realtime flat when I saw a hand stick out of the cupboard door! and another time, I got this feeling that I had been out too long and that I was dying, everything started going weird, so I jumped back into my body bloody quick!

I'm impressed no-one has regurgitated the traditional golden dawn definition of magick yet (or not word for word any way!) this is a good thing, because the way i see it, magick comes in all sorts of packages, and the golden dawn system is just one of those, albeit a famous one. Magick, for me is all about the special feelings associated with the metaphysical. The tools, the sigils, the hand movements, its these special bits and bobs that attracted me to it in the first place.

The things I'v heard revolve around the fact that its not a good idea to manipulate the weather, as its not just you you're affecting, so could be bad "Karma" or whatever. I have to say though, that Ive never tried myself.

I really enjoyed it, thankyou.

Yeah, I like the heartbeat one, I got it from "the projection of the Astral body" by carrington and muldoon (check out review section)the concentration on anything is good, but the heart especially as you can concentrate on reducing the heart rate slightly to relax.

Also along with bollocks you can also say shite, instead of sh*t. Although it has to be said that both are swear words. If somebody is going somewhere, eg to the shops they could say "I'm just popping out tp the shops", or "I'm just nipping out to the shops."

Breathe is good, you should get one of their albums, Fat of the land. My favourite song by them is smack my grump up. I didnt think you knew them in America.