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I found the theory that nature creates this formations (I'm talking about the complex ones that do not seem to be faked) utterly absurd .  Nature can create some complex geometries but what weather phenomenon would change it's footprints on a yearly basis, almost never producing the same formation twice? never leave a unfinished formation? Never leave a unclear formation, always clear edges, unbroken stems,never been observed while happening? completely unknown to mankind? increasing in complexity over time? common? you guys must be kidding! There is no such thing in nature show me one thing in nature that has this attributes! I would bet 1000$ that you can not find such a thing.........

Alien, Human or some other intelligence

Lets not forget the US-Government flow the whole Bin Laden Family out of the US after 9/11! It is proven that  Bin Laden was the friend of US as long as he terrorized the Sowjets for the US in Afghanistan. Plus it is basically proven the Bush does lie to the public on different occasions, the American president lies to the US  citizens! That is a fact! No not all the US does is bad, No the Terrorist are not right. But as Kofi Anan said Fighters for freedom on one side are seen as Terrorists on the other side. How would you feel if your wedding is bombed? It sure would feel like terror to me....
Can you defend human rights by ignoring them? The US ignored the UN-council, the US ignores international law (Guantanamo), the US ignores Human rights they capture People (Terrorist they say) in European Countries and fly them out to Countries in the middle east were they can torture them to gather info's.

Lets not forget that the weaponry industry has sponsored large parts of the US government. Who's is really to believe that the US government Bombed Iraq to make the US citizens saver? common guys! lets get realistic governments all overt the world have deluded People so many times in the past, who is to believe to are not doing it right know? The Swiss government sells tanks to the Arabs despite the 90% of the Swiss People being against it, they simply didn't tell them what they are doing.

there is a power struggle out there for the world, it always has been. Keep the masses dumb is part of the game.

Hans Solo

Competition without regulation = exploitation

Is it so hard to understand this?

Ok Hans I do agree with some you say, but the above wasn't just reffering to employees. What about eviromental issues? I think you should make a trip to the rain forest and then you will see that economy without regulation = exploitation is a fact. clean water and air are non tradable goods the market will not take care of these things.

free economy may solve some problems but it also causes some problems ( for example greenhouse effect) and you beloved America is right at the top in that aspect.

You talk about theorie, things always work in theorie but do they work in reality? I don't know what you consider to be the ultimate free market but I guess US- market is definitely less regulated then the Swiss market. so, following your argument the employees in US should have a better life then the ones in Switzerland. Do they? What procentage of People in US earns more then 3000$? compare that to Switzerland.........I do not know it but I would be surprised if the average US citizens earns more then  the Swiss.

Also your argument that nobody has to work in a job he doesn't like is completly shallow.  What if you have 3 Kids are single parent and the only job you find is working for Burgerking? open 24 hours a day? you can life in that world I do not want to.

People are greedy and money = power, therefore the wealthy people will always be tempted to exploit the poor if no regulations are having the force of law.

Germany, I do not know what their problem is but I'm sure there are other explanations then the one you provide.

Hans Solo

Competition without regulation = exploitation

Is it so hard to understand this?

I can relate to that. I have a lot of dreams were friends from real live are kind of diabolic.

Good questions.

I'll butt in again.

I don't believe we reincarnate.  A number of people on this planet have had past lives but the vast majority have not.  For most of us it's our first dip in the pool.  Any past-life memories we have are simply recollections of the physical experiences of others.  These are not our own experiences, they can not possibly be, other than in the sense that we are all ultimately connected.   As I said, only 700 million past lives and 6.5 billion people alive today. Please do the maths....

catmeow

catmeow: A possible solution would be that time is not linear. It would then be possible to reincarnate in the past = no math problems
I doubt that this explanation is really satisfying for you though
Since Logic is based on cause and effect (IMO) and cause and effect is based in linear time Logical thinking just seems to collaps if we introduce non linear time.

I sometimes wonder if there is any kind of danger involved if I one fights the urge to return and tries to stay out as long as possible at any cost? Will the physical take me back anyway or is it better not the mess with this things.

Unusually, "Buddha" means the one, the enlighten one (His name is Siddhartha) .  Who really understand life and death and think everything is not real (For example: Life is short, so it is not real, but soul is real.)  

Buddha does not believe in a soul! That was his teaching, nothing is permanent all thing are dissatisfactory and without self, realizing that leads to freedom and happiness. No Soul there is, he made that very clear.

So, just for the record this thread has nothing to do with Buddhism.

TOmbo...you dont know who is Buddha?! without any offense, i think that its strange...but please i am not being ironic. maybe thats because you are from a non english country and in your tongue you have a different word.
Buddha was the creator of Buddhism, a religion. honestly i dont know how to translate buddhism or buddha to your language.

see you

I know very well what a Buddha is, I just wondered what sapphire thinks a Buddha is because she/he said:

I hope you are not shock, but the truth is many Christian and Catholic gods and goddesses. They are also Buddha and Bodhisattvas. They are able to function the same.

this is very strange since a Buddha does not reincarnate not even as a god (that's the whole point of Buddsm) so how can a god be a Buddha?

what is a Buddha?

Thank you very much for your reply upstream! Very interesting!

I bet explorers are never bored.

It doesn't matter to me what others are. I'm curious. I heard about F3, now I wanna go and explore that. you may be right I mostly have LD although I do have RTZ OBE from  time to time. flying around, walking around the bedroom, watching reality fluctuations, moving tru walls.......It is just not what I'm looking for. If I'm missing the point and you can show me a way to make this OBE's more exploratory, I'm happy!

This is what you did recently, I've read your post at ld4all. You have moved directly from level four to level zero by doing your disconnection trick. You have been fired out "through the top of your head," so to speak, through your crown chakra, and found yourself in the great darkness, Fz

What do you mean by level four, level zero. I do not understand. Could you please explain a bit more about it. How can I trigger this again, I still do not really understand how I triggered it?! Last time I tried nothing special happened, I just ended up in the Blackness

When you dreamt about the Fz your energy body had a size commensurable with the Earth's circumference. All portal structures of the Earth system were within yourself. Your energy body remained somewhat spatially incoherent, hence your inability to perceive F3 in human terms. You just had to change your focus by placing your intent and zoom away.

What kind of intent? to see F3? How can I zoom away from a Blackness?

If Frank's slat method works for everyone it rather has the dynamic the disconnection trick you did by sleeping within a dream without using the twin position.

Can you tell memore about the twin position and what it exactly it is and how it works? I would like to understand that better.

I already described my trick in this thread how to keep coherence while you attain the F2 to F3 transition. The trick is to keep the pictures of real objects only as you gradually immobilize your physical eyes and exit REM sleep.

Do you mean the following?

I focus on distant buildings and objects long enough in order to make hallucinations melting. I keep the sightings of every stable elements that attract my attention and disregard those that change or become transparent.

I'll give it a try. I know i ask a lot of questions, hope you find time to answer

BTW what is your name at LD4all?

Witan, Since you native language isn't english (same as me) I give you a good tip that I learnt from somebody:

Never try to be ironic in a language other then your mother tongue, because most of the time others won't get it!

Witan why should anyone ban you? Your comments are certainly healthy for the discussion, if you would just manage to be a bit more polite, everything would be fine and nobody would hate you I'm sure.

Hello again.

I made two successfully attempts to enter the void. This time I was able to stay a bit longer there 10-20 sec. What puzzles me is the fact that I seem not to be able to create anything there. You guys said it is like raw matter where anything that one imagines comes into reality. Haven't experienced that yet. Wasn't able to create any door or so to enter F3, so I started to wonder if I am really in the correct Blackness (Fz)?! What makes me even more doubtful is the following I read somewhere else.

Jeff answers.......
.........you have two black voids..
The big black void or deep sleep has one unique thing instead of the small void witch is a in between layer between waking and dreaming..and that is that when you want to wake up you always go up to less deep sleep layers and go through dream stage again although that can be seconds only..while in the small void if you go upwards in consciousness you wake up right away and never see any dream because for that you would first have to into a deeper sleep stage again.
Also in the small void you can see visuals hypnogogics also in the deep sleep black void that aint so because your visual cortex is of line.
But probably while obeing one time or another you have been in both.

Hmmmmmmmm I'm a little unsure how to proceed now, which one is the correct blackness?..... Please help  i wanna reach F3 so badly........

Hello Sapphire!

I have a question:

From where do you know that your experiences are not just created by your mind, that the other beings are real and not just your fantasy?

Cheers Tom

I posted this a while ago in the OBE-Forum, didn't get much response. So I thought I post it here maybe somebody knows something about it:

tried an experiment this morning (after reading the following: http://forum.ld4all.com/viewtopic.php?t=4299&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=0 )and I truly can say, I'm shocked! I never have experienced something like that before.

I had an LD this morning and decided to try the falling asleep within a Dream thing. So, I laid down on the floor (inside the dream) and withdraw my senses from the dream body, what then happened was absolutely scary!
I felt like 10000 Volt thru my body, very intense vibrations and then I got very powerfully ejected from my Body. Thats simply the best word I can find to describe it. I had a couple of OBE's before but this was different. I would guess that a NDE would feel like that and I can not imagine that it can feel more real then that! I simply know that I was OUT of my BODY completely, It felt very different to my normal OBE's or any LD's I ever had. Normally I kind of feel protected, like I know, Hey, I'm still laying in Bed and can end the experience any time, sometimes I might even feel my Body breathing or something, but not this time. I got very scared and tried to reach my Body immediately. usually when I focus on my Body I snap back to it very quickly but this time it took at least 15 sec. it was like my mind couldn't find my Body. I was whirling in some Blackness (Fz) for quite some time before I fortunately started to feel my Body again. I has several false awakenings after that. I'm still confused.
Chances that I just dreamed it are remote cause it felt more real then any dream I can remember. It actually felt more real then I feel now.
I had several OBE's in succession after the experience. maybe an energy excess?


has anybody experienced something like that? Is it dangerous?

Thanks Tom

Ahh I forgot to mention. I had several OBE's in succession after the experience. maybe an energy excess?

i tried an experiment this morning and I truly can say, I'm shocked! I never have experienced something like that before.

I had an LD this morning and decided to try the falling asleep within a Dream thing. So, I laid down on the floor (inside the dream) and withdraw my senses from the dream body, what then happened was absolutely scary!
I felt like 10000 Volt thru my body, very intense vibrations and then I got very powerfully ejected from my Body. Thats simply the best word I can find to describe it. I had a couple of OBE's before but this was different. I would guess that a NDE would feel like that and I can not imagine that it can feel more real then that! I simply know that I was OUT of my BODY completely, It felt very different to my normal OBE's or any LD's I ever had.  Normally I kind of feel protected, like I know, Hey, I'm still laying in Bed and can end the experience any time, sometimes I might even feel my Body breathing or something, but not this time. I got very scared and tried to reach my Body immediately. usually when I focus on my Body I snap back to it very quickly but this time it took at least 15 sec. it was like my mind couldn't find my Body. I was whirling in some Blackness (Fz) for quite some time before I fortunately started to feel my Body again. I has several false awakenings after that. I'm still confused.
Chances that I just dreamed it are remote cause it felt more real then any dream I can remember. It actually felt more real then I feel now

has anybody experienced something like that? Is it dangerous?

I'm not really sure if it is allowed to link to an other Forum?!
I just thought this thread is very interesting and I'm wondering what you guys think about it.

Just scroll down to about the middel of the page were it starts getting exciting

http://forum.ld4all.com/viewtopic.php?t=4299&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=0

This websites are great, you don't have to download a IQ-Test to find out how smart you are! Just take a look and your thoughts will tell........

souljah i have a question for you. what is 333?

I want it to be tonight's lottery numbers.

Welcome back Telos! BTW I want it to be my Post count......... Ha!  it worked!!!! A true Miracle..........
 

bcuz i believe that a shift is taking place that can no longer be CONTROLLED...by the "beings" that have controlled our minds for so very long.

what the heck are you talking about?

I'm a little disturbed as well (not implicitly a bad thing....)

what disturbs me is the assumption that the mind is owned by the Self expressed by:

we now know that you are actually projecting within your own area of mind

As I see it, the "Self" is generated by the mind, the feeling of "I" is created by the mind. imagine for example, watching a movie, when you are completely absorbed in the story line there is no sense of "I" left, when the mind is absorbed in something else it stops generating the feel of "Self" and the Self disintegrates completely. It is therefore odd to say that the "I" owns the mind. I know what Frank means, but it is a confusing situation.

What also is disturbing me, is the fact that Franks seems to know the future for example:

But non-physical reality technology has been a bit in the doldrums until about 15 years ago and it has finally started to take off

He has also talked about future events as if they were certain on other occasions. What disturbs me is the following. If the future is determined, we can not change it. that means we do not have a free will----> disturbing

More and more people are now actually experiencing the truth

for As I understood Frank; More and more people start to realize that the Astral is a part of their own mind, by experiences gained there.
Souljah333  understood it otherwise in a more absolute sense, I believe. How can you possibly experience something else then reality, which is in sense truth ? You can not, therefore the above sentence is a bit odd if read word by word.

how can anyone say for absolute certainty that their mind is their own?

I would try to answer if you can define "mind" and "I" and "own"