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I had an unvolontary OBE in the real time zone, with perfect vision, seeing my body, etc...

I had one volontary OBE but with not so good vision, and another one where I only raised up a little bit (that makes 2 voluntary OBE).

I had many Lucid dreams, and many hypnagonic states...

I had even more premonitory dreams... (that's my "specialization" if I might say)

And I have normal dreams everynight of course...

In addition I had one spiritual encounter with a tunnel almost like NDE, probably an unvolontary OBE where I saw deceased relatives worrying/caring for me, I had one experience in the "dark void place", and I had precognitions of death of people, etc...

Shaman The Dreamer (it says the dreamer, not the OBEr..)

Sorry, I would not have posted a complaint here, but since you already got me upset when you wrote I was psycho because of lucid dreaming, I got even more upset....

It will still take me a while to lose my big and green appearence however...

Thanks! That's nice of you to understand. []

My main concern was that inside the topic "shadow people" you posted your link, and then you posted it as a topic under "OBE", and then under "energy", and others... that makes more than 4 times...  

Anyhow, the moderators are monitoring the postings and they usually move postings that are innapropriate to their place according to their content.

As you are awake your brain (which is actually a huge gland) produces (secretes) poisonous chemicals (toxins) that interfer with the very own function of the brain. During sleep the brain gets rid of these toxins. If you do not sleep for more than 2 weeks in a row, you can produce irreversible brain dammage. Experiments with volonteers have shown (from the 1970s already I think) that among a group of people, those who were allowed to sleep but not to dream (they were waken up during the REM dream phase) completely lost their mind; while those who were allowed to dream but not to have sleep without dream, got better and came back to normal after a while. So not sleeping (and more precisely not dreaming) can cause irreversible dammage. Sleep depravation cannot be caught up by more sleeping the next day... So I suspect that if  you do not sleep for 3 days, there might be things going on in your brain that will affect your periferic vision. I do not think that what you see then is real, it might have more to do with extreme fatigue. I write "it might", because for sure nothing has been proven here, and it is also possible that when you don't sleep for 3 days, you are in state that allows you to drift easily in the hypnagonic state where you see and hear things. Some people OBE from the hypnagonic state, so you might be closer to the astral there and see these dark entities... just thoughts...

Thanks for the details.

Well then we'll have to see what is hapening in the middle east with British (troops) and Iran. Since Iran is not in the conflict right now but only at the negotion table for its nuclear potential threat, we'll have to see if this could go into involving British troops in  a conflict again Iran or something similar... This is a very long term issue that could take years...

Your last experiement is more the kind of things I have experienced in some premonitory dreams: straightforward... Did you happen to see the school bus? Was it a yellow bus like the ones in the US? That would be very easy to verify in the news. If it is a little accident then we will not hear of it (only in local regional news), but if there are fatalities and injuries then we'll hear about it even if it is in Alaska. For it to be premonitory it has to happen within a few days, otherwise the statistics are that you can always wait enough time for such a "common" event to happen, since these happen pretty often.

Maybe as a first trial you should only "listen" to these entities talking about the future to get as much info as possible without disturbing them... It seems as intruding into their discussion made them stop, exactly the opposite than what we wanted.

On my side I only have regular dreams these days, really nothing special. Last night I met with Jerry Seinfeld in the dream... funny!

Cheers.

Concerning the occult... I have seen/met many women who had gifts, mediums, sometimes throwing spells, reading the future in a cup of coffee, etc... I haven't seen many men capable of that, however I have heard of men who knew more than what they showed... they knew about the death of other poeple before it happens, or about their own death...

In the physical... it is big and green....

Maybe it was the noise the spider made with its legs while jumping off the leaf? Or it was the leaf itself that made that noise when you "brushed" it on the blanket? I don't think the spider can make noise with ---hum--- its mouse or whatsoever it has there, but rather with some part of its body, like the crikets that make so much noise while "rubbing" their legs .... just a hint....

It is not the hostility that makes them of poor health but it is the same conditions that drive them hostile that also destroys their health... If you add smoking and drinking for these same people then, there you are... They should not have checked the hostility but rather the social conditions, and the mood of the person (depressed, etc...). The hostility is just a behavioral reaction to a situation, and it is rather the situation (depressed) that causes more health damage than the hostility itself. Actually it has been shown that someone who keeps inside all his anger will cause her/himself more damage than someone who  gets upset, yells or even get agressive (hostile). This is a good exercise in anger management (saw the movie with Jack Nicholson?).

As for me I know what to do when I get angry.... big and green.... let it come out of you, don't let that boil inside you, it will kill you.... but remember even so don't hurt the others... just break some furniture, or a tank or two,....

OK, it sounds good.

If on Saturday evening here by 11pm, or midnight I concentrate on the envelop to send you... it will be around 5 or 6 am on Sunday in Switzerland and that should do it. At that time you should be sleeping but also "fresh" enough to remember whatever you dream.

Now, I will repeat that already tonight and Friday, to make it stronger on Saturday... and we'll see if you dream of any envelop... addressed to Tom Bodenmann in Switzerland.

The evening before (Saturday evening in Switzerland) try not to drink alcohol or to go to sleep too late, as this might make you more tired and you will have dificulties remembering your dreams.... So think about it if you prefer another day, or if Sunday morning is fine for you... then let's try.  I will draw a geometrical figure and color it...

Cheers!

Hi HyperD,

the background sounds like the conflits in the middle east. It could be a military aliance but between who and who. It seems sure that if the uniforms are colors of sand, then we are talking about US troops in Irak. There is sure not enough details to inteprete correctly. The only sure thing is that it represent a military aliance where one leader will eventually leads his ally (troops) into something that she does not want. The alliance could be for example the british troops and the US troops in Irak... or even the Israeli troops attacking Syria with the accord of the US and then what was the betrayal in the dream could be the fact that the israeli army cannot do as it pleases for example. ...

It just too vague at this time, but it is an interesting experiment.

You can try just to ask the questions in the dream even if there is nobody.... we are there to explore and we do not know how "flexible" a lucid dream can be.

But only do what you feel confortable with. Let me know if anything "uneasy" happens (as in my LD with the night sky and the fear).

Cheers!

Sure James put the finger on the important point, there is Love and ther is Sex. Two men, or two women, can fall in love for each other... it would be called best friends. There is the story of David (Kind David) and Jonathan (the son of King Saul) in the bible, and there are many songs written by David about his love for Jonathan (Old testament - Jewish Bible). That does not make David homosexual... on the contrary he had hundreds of wives and comcubines...

So I understand what is Love from the "heart" and how it works, just I am not sure why people have to put "sex" in the middle of it when sometimes it is NOT especially needed there.

I don't bother what other poeple do, unless they hurt other people. I certainly do not tolerate people who hurt children.

Now the main question is: "Is deep compassion/love (from say the "heart") related to sexual attraction" or is it only "disoriented by it" ?

From my experience, deep compassion/love can stand by itself without any sex in the middle and is not especially a result of sexual attraction - for example the way someone loves her/his children; or if you are too young to have children it would be the way you can love your dog (though I dont like that analogy). It is a little bit of confusion/mixed-up to put sex in a good friendship, especially for people of the same sex... Is it because there is "to love" and "to make love", I am not sure why, but there is a kind of confusion there... Or maybe because one wants more than 'platonic" love, the compassion becomes passion and then there is a lost of control...

Anyhow, as I said, if none is hurt, I do not mind what you guys are doing...

For any mental/intelectual/spiritual activity for SURE the health of the physical body will have some influence on the result of your practice. A healthy spirit in a healthy body (in corpore sana). I have done some Yoga, though not much. I have done many years of Shotokan (karate) and at a given level it sure helps. First it helps you to feel self confident of course, but also it helps you to stand straight (as many people do not, the position of the upper body really affect your psychic), to stand firm on your feet, it helps you to look at the world without focusing on one point in particular but rather trying to see the whole picture (especially true when you are attacked by many oponents from different directions), it helps you "advance" forward with the center of gravity of your body (belly button) rather than with your feet, etc.... And sure it keeps you in shape. That helps you to release stress, and to sleep better at night and to feel even better during the day.

So, whatever you are doing (playing guitar, OBE, solving a math problem, drawing architectural designs,...) you will perform better if you are in shape and are practicing a physical activity... sure a physical activity that involves also your concentration will even help more.

Thanks Hyper D.

that needs to elucidated/interpretated...

What color were dressed both the male and femal? Was there any special characteristics? such a mustash, glasses, etc.... What were they looking like? Asiatic, Europeean, American, etc...

And the armies, what color were their uniform? Did they have the same uniform? What weaponery did you see there?

What was the background like? Mountain, desert, forest, streets? ..etc..? What was the weather like? hot and dry? cloudy, rainy, snowy?

You need to go into the detail so I can try to elucidate with your help...

Thanks again!

Hey Tom,

At last I got onto your posting about experimenting in the dream world.

Well, as to me, I haven't tried much in the LD region, first I have to work on that to induce more LD. I had none for a long time.

As to me, usually I worked on dreams in general, trying to find when I have a premonitory one. There are some that I already know, since I have learn their symbolism, and there are others that I try to find out. And then there are the vivid ones, that are like flash. There are also those that come as if I was watching TV or reading the journal, and what I see there is actually the picture of the news of an event that will happen within a day or two.

That's why I was asking HyperD to check if he can find someone in the astral to tell him the future.

As to me, only once in a lucid dream I asked the stary night sky to reveal me the future, but it did not work, I only got for answer a sensation of fear engulfing me (well, I would have prefere a sensation of joy...).

So, we could try another kind of experiment where the time difference between LA SUISSE and the US could be used as follow.

We need one person who sleeps and who is dreaming toward the end of the night, toward the morning, since this the time when the dreams are best remembered. Then we need a person awake who will try to transmit a message to the sleeping person. For example the person awake is thinking of a large enveloppe and of a large piece of paper where a shape has been drawn with a given color. Then the person awake thinks about puting the paper in the envelop  and addressing the envelop to the sleeping person and then sending it. The sleeping person has only to dream about it, that all. Then the next morning one can check out what has happened.

Of course we can also write the name of the parents instead of coloring a geometrical shape....

I think the time difference between Switzerland and US (east coast) is 6 hour.
What do you think?

I have been looking through the remaining of Chill's posts, the ones she has not yet erased, and I found some very interesting. She has a rational mind and she poiting to some very important issues, where unfortunately she could not get many answers... I have "revived" two of her messages, trying to answer my best. I found another message where it looked as if the discussion was getting "warmer", so I understand why maybe she decided to do what she did. SHe seems to be commiting herself to the discussions and taking them seriously (at least when it is a serious discussion), unlike many people.

Anyhow, if a message is disturbing, then it is up to the moderators to remove it. Here maybe she decided that what she was writting was actually maybe some special knowledge that she would prefer other people not to know..? I think I understand she is writting a book, so there might also be some problem with copyright about things she is writting, elaborating, etc... not sure.

I truely hope she will not just vanish and we will keep on learning from some of her postings.

I have the opposite effect hapening, every time when in the dream there is a mirror and I look at myself, I do not see any reflection, and it is then that I realised I am in a dream. The dream becomes lucid. And often from there the dream even vanishes. Once from there I ended up in the "void" place.

Hey Chill,

I see that you start erasing your very own messages, and I found it is a pity that you have to do so, as these are very interesting and there are not many like yours in the forum...

So I am hurring up to answer your posts, before they dissapear...

The hypnagogic (hypnagonic?) state is really very separated from the dream. I often do have visions, pictures, sounds, music, voices from the hypnagonic state, either just before falling asleep or before waking up. The most impressing is when I wake up. I do dream and then after the dream ends up I do have pictures and sounds comming up, almost like a second kind of dreams, however with a subject completely different than the subject of the dreams. So the dreams and the hypnagonic state are either working separately in the brain and are taking place at very different locations, or really the hypnagonic state is a state of the mind where we are able to tap into the astral realm, and therefore whatever comes from there is not from us from outside. Anyhow, I haven't been to verify any of those scenarios.

For me too my few voluntary OBEs have turned immediately into lucid dream and then into dream.... So not quiet sure. From my own experience, the OBE is a state beyond the hypnagonic state. I have no difficulty to reach the hypnagonic state and from there I do not go easily into OBE, or do not go into OBE at all.

Sure there is something there to inverstigate and check out.

Eh Nagual

La Femme est l'avenir de L'Homme

(Aragon)

Je suis entierement d'accord avec toi...

"In Muslim legend, a spirit often capable of assuming human or animal form and exercising supernatural influence over people."


Also known, for example, in Morocco (in Magrebian) as the "jnoun", they are mainly kind of entities that come up at night from underground... They are like our more european devils, satans, ... They are known to be able for example to turn someone into an animal. Example of Legend is this women who is working in the night and manually grinding coffee. She was supposedly turned into a purring cat. Another example, it is said that there was a time that when a women would sit at a place where a man sat, she would become pregnant, and that would be the "work" of the "jnoun". It is also said that they have gone away because many have prayed God for them to go.

By the way Corvette, you might want to have a look at the posting I put in the OBE forum about "dark entities,..." it is related to the shadow people I believe.

Anyhow, they all seem to be related to what one would finds if while OBE one would look underground.... the beeings of light are in the sky and the beeings of darkness are in teh ground....

Eh Frere,

Merci de ton message personel!

I havne't OBE for that many years, but only have got into it more recently (a couple of years). However, I have had some experiences long ago and more recently that I did not understood then and that only when going into the details of OBE/AP I understood as being linked to the subject. I had other experiences more related to premonitions and with time they have become more in the form of premonitory dreams. This is why I have turned more into the dream world than into other things. In that sens I explore more the astral realm through dreams than through voluntary OBEs - I had only a few of these. I have also concentrated more on the interpretation of dreams, symbolism (also for premonitory dreams). So I worked more passivlely if I might say, more autosuggestion. I also explore the border between asleep and awake, the hypnagonic state, where you are conscious and awake and are already able to access the world of the dream, astral... So the asnwer is NO, I haven't been OBE for 24 years, but since long ago I have had unvonluntary experiences related to OBE/AP. What really was a proof to me was the premonitory dreams, and that is what convinced me that there is more "on the other side" and that it is worse trying to explore.

Bien a toi!
Chamane Le Reveur

Yes sure for me I cannot think of 2 and 7 other than yellow and 4 and 8 other than green .... not sure why....

Hi Mustang!

What you bring here up to the board sounds like Near Death Experience, NDE for short, where in the first part a person has an accident, a heat attack, a car crash, etc... and her/his body is actually dying. NExt thing the person has an OBE in the physical world, so well that that person is able to remember all the little details (for example) of the emergency teams, the emergency room, the doctors in panic mode, etc... And nest the person goes through the tunnel and reaches the light and from there the person is send either back to her/his body (and the Light says to them "IT IS NOT YOUR TIME, YOU HAVE TO GO BACK") or the person actually dies.... What you bring here is where people have to wai to die....

Anyhow, I though you might want to have a look at the following site:

http://www.iands.org/

it is a site about NDE

Shaman The Dreamer

Thanks Caroline and the others,

from that it seems that either the dark entities are responsible for making someone depressed, suicidal, ... OR the other possibility is that  IT IS THE PERSON HERSELF/HIMSELF that creates the dark entity with the "bad thoughts". Or the third possibility is that the dark entities are attracted by peope who are suicidal, depressed, etc... I am not sure at this time yet, but sure there is a link here between the two that we cannot ignore. The most likely is that the dark entities exist (not sure where they come from) and that they actually FEED on the fear, depression, suicidal thought of people. That way they would grow bigger and bigeer, as the one seen by Caroline. How then they are link to the person is a more complicated story.

And sorry but I cannot thing of "strangulating" myself to get a lower consciousness... Dat Kan Niet!  That kind of stuff just does not work for me, it makes me think of suicide... anyhow, the hypnagonic state, between awake and asleep is the best to be in for many things, if it is to start an OBE, to listen to noises, voices, see things, etc...

Sorry I could not resist to continue answering some other issues here...

as to Syria and Iran being attacked... well there is also North Corea of course, with actual nuclear weaponery able to reach the west coast...

As to Iran, it is now being under UN scrunity, etc... The same path as Irak? Iran is really between Afghanistan and Irak, and that would make it easy to squeeze.

As to Syria, it has never signed a peace treaty with Israel and is formally still at war with Israel... I do not see Bush sending more US troops to fight the Syrian but rather I see that the Bush administration is very protective of the Israeli interests when it comes to Syria, in that sens that Bush declared that Israel has the right to attack terrorists there in Syria, and of course Ariel Sharon (ISraeli PM) would be more than happy to finish a busyness that has been on the table for so long. So well that the French Chirac has mentioned (that was written in an article in Le Canard Enchaine) that he see a war between Israel and Syria some time in November and that the US would actually use Israel as "its military extension" there, rather than send more US troops (original wording from that journal).  In addition, attacking Syria would be done on two fronts at least, from Lebanon and from the Golan (as far as the Israeli are concerned). The capital Damascus is not very far from the Israeli border. In the meanwhile the US could secure the Syrian/Iraki border or even enter from there for diversion.... That would take care also of getting rid of some 20,000 syrian troops still in Lebanon. Once that cleared up, it would open a way for Lebanon to be at last free and then to open peace negociation between (say..?) Israel and Syria and the whole region, that is, if all that does not turn into vinegar.... since it does not seem to be so easy right now in Irak...

The lighting was as if there were some lights on, even though all the lights must have been off at that time. My grand mother for sure was not in the physical. I did not pay attention to the details, to be able to tell you (after almost a quater of a century!) if it was exactly the physical, or something slightly altered. From another OBE, this one volontary, I know that even in the physical plane, things don't look the way they are supposed to. The best is to make a check to find out how accurate it is. The best I can remember is that it was obviously the balcony, the living room and that the "abnormalities" were what I see as the lighting and the presence of a deceased family member. I do not remember seeing something obviously wrong. To conclude I would say it was obvioulsy the physical, as initially I saw myself on the bed under my floating astral self and I was obviously in the appartment of my sister, but there were some little "anomalies" as I mentioned.

Another thing, which has to do with the real physical world, and not another place, though another time, is a vivid and accurate premonitory dream (or more than one). Otherwise the premonitory dreams come usually in sign. But I remeber of one, where what I saw in the dream in the night was exactly the same picture I saw in the news of an event the next day. So I believe there I was in the physical again, but at a future time if I might say , more like a "flash" vision, rather than a dream with a story.