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Last night my husband was watching a program on serial killers. They were creating profiles to describe the killers.

One was horrific - the guy would kill the victim, leave the body, and a few days later go back, make incisions in the body, and then move the body to a new location. When you mentioned the incisions, I was reminded of this particular case.  

They then mentioned that the victims were prostitutes.   Because of the similarity of your post to what the show mentioned, as well as the timing (the show being aired last night) I thought I would mention it.  I only overheard bits and pieces - it was too gruesome and so I left the room. But if you are interested in the title of the show, I can ask my husband.

I'm glad I don't have these!

Patty

For health and mental well being -

weights and cardio (jogging, step workout, lots of weights, just tried a cardio yoga tape, etc) - Best physical shape I've ever been in and damn proud of it



For enjoyment -

gardening (Hi Ides! Our cherry tomatoes are in but no big tomatoes yet)

Needlecrafts of all sorts, and starting to get into spinning

Clay/pottery



Most of my day is spent on -

Raising my kids, which is enjoyable, rewarding, and very much a growing experience for myself - but I suffer from frequent burnout - which is why I started working out and I still want to get a punching bag to relieve stress

Patty

Hi again -

Shandor - 32 39 12

I dare you to buy a ticket (wicked grin).

Hi Greg -

You're not a buhlman fan by any chance?  I haven't had much luck with the statement approach. But the other thing - about 'becoming the card' - I use that approach when I play with RV. Weird stuff! If I am really nicely tranced and sort of in emptiness, becoming the target always has a BOOM with a single impression after it. Like curved, or pointy, or something.

It sounds like once you started projecting, you took off! Neat!

Hey Ralph -

I like the idea of 3 - d  objects. We have another experiment where we do that - I ask husband to place an object, and I try to identify  it by feel.  the same sorts of fluctuations come into play though.

Some people think that by having him place the object, that he might make some comment later and unintentionally give me a hint about what the object is.  So I am trying to remove that possibility with the card trick. But we have the 3-d experiment going on too. I can try to post the current tally from those if anyone wants to hear them. They're kind of interesting.

I feel like I am on such a productive part of the learning curve right now - the main hurdle is the reality fluctuations so I'm trying to get past those a little. I think it will happen.  I think I have been approaching it with the wrong expectation - instead of trying to somehow force the environment to be more concrete I think I need to learn to observe the environment for what it is.  (thanks Frank! See? I am thinking about your comments.)

Patty

Frank -

quote:
If I may point out, the Astral realms are as stable as the Physical (perhaps even more so). They appear highly varied and subjective because of the limitations of our mental faculties in trying to comprehend what is going on.

For example, when we get sceptical on the Physical we have the strong tendency to say, "I'll believe it when I see it"

Okay, so you project within the Astral and, not realising the ground rules, you release all kinds of emotions that instantly create and continue to fuel the circumstances that surround you. Your conscious awareness can see what surrounds you so it believes that what it is seeing is real.

Big problem is, though, your mental faculties will react to these circumstances in exactly the same way as it would do on the Physical.

That's why it is ever so easy to get caught in a loop where you create the initial circumstances that surround you; then you react to these circumstances, thus perpetuating the circumstances; then you react to these circumstances, thus perpetuating the circumstances.................

Are you saying that what we see in the astral realms is not stable, but that the conditions that create them are?

I'm trying to understand how your example reflects a stable environment ---- have I got it?

Junkie - thanks for the correction - how does the wall prevent fluctuations? my recollection is that going through a wall creates fluctuations so if anything I would think you wouldn't want one around - ?

Patty

Hi James,

Regarding your ideas - I think each of us is developing our ideas as best fits us. Your ideas are as valid as anyone else's.  I hold out for proof, others do not. In my opinion we'll all make do with whatever we 'get.'

Hi Atlas,

quote:when I have asked some people "How do you KNOW you have actually left your body and this isn't in your mind?" The answer I usually get is something like "it was just so vivid! It FELT so real!"

Can you reference this?  It sounds like the sort of thing one might hear now and then, but might not actually reflect the views of the majority. It certainly would be an inflammatory statement to a skeptic, so perhaps the comment pushed your button?   (My personal response to your question would be that I DON'T know that I have left my body. But that far more often than not when I try to identify something that is blindly placed, I succeed; yet remain unconvinced that anything objectively exterior is happening.)  

quote:..... intuition isn't proof, or science. Intuition might lead someone down a particular path to proving or testing something, but intuition itself is not any kind of objective test. Having a hunch that the moon is made of cheese doesn't mean it is.

My point was that a person recognizes the experience. If you had an experience where you felt like "oh my god, I'm walking around without a body" you would recognize it as a typical astral projection. Non-experiencers occasionally claim that AP's are 'just dreams.'  (Off hand I can't reference this! heh heh)  AP's may certainly be entirely internal, but they are clearly distinct from typical dreams. They can be confusing, but they are recognizable.  My point was not that recognition of the state is any sort of proof that the consciousness is physically separated from the body.

quote:>>I think we all recognize that it would be hard to identify a five digit number. What is your point here?

Why is this hard? What kind of identification test wouldn't be hard, and yet not easy to guess? I don't care what it is. A series of 6 basic shapes? Guess a card out of a deck? I don't care. The point is that if one can project into the real-time zone, like RB suggests, which is a near-exact replica, then it should be possible for someone to come here to my house or neighborhood and do an identification test of some sort.

This is where lack of experience is dictating your expectations.  Of the 30 - 50 experiences I have had over the last few years, none have lasted more than a minute or two. Significant time was spent in each simply getting my bearings. Most importantly, there were obvious distortions from physicality in ALL of them. Every one.  Maybe fifty percent of the 'information' made no sense at all. And yet in the roughly ten that I tried to verify, in every case I successfully identified at least some part of the target that was set.

Now think about that. Don't jump in with a test yet, just keep listening for a minute.  Distortion of what we agree is the physical world and yet some part of the target was successfully identified.  You can't find Osama with that. You can't identify a five digit number with that. You might be able to tell if a friend chose to wear blue or red that day, or some such, but it might be obscured by all sorts of nonsensical 'noise' in the experience.

If these experiences are anything like the norm --- we can not ask "Where is Osama bin Laden" with them.  They simply aren't controllable enough, detailed enough, or noise-less enough. But we can ask "what can we learn about human consciousness" with these experiences.  (And it could be an incredible leap in understanding.)  I believe we should be able to gather good evidence as to whether AP represents a state away from the body or not. The experiments do not have to have astronomical odds in order to do this. They can have 1:2 odds, provided enough trials are run.

quote:I thought in Astral Dynamics RB said that the realtime zone is close enough to the physical to be considered a mirror almost?

I have read AD but not closely enough to see what is and isn't thought to be concrete in the nearest hypothetical real time zone.  Recently on an art bell interview, RB discussed what would be necessary to prove that OBE represents something outside the body. He mentioned something like having the projector sleeping in a room the size of a warehouse (to provide an empty space perhaps?) and being asked to identify something roughly the size of a wall.  In other words, a hell of a big target surrounded by empty space. So regardless of whether the real time zone mirrors the physical world or not - RB does not appear to think that the sorts of experiments you suggest are tenable. In my limited experience I would agree, though I am most certainly only an unconvinced novice.  I have no idea what generates all the random images seen while projecting. Many thoughts exist on this - that it might be one's dream mind, or emotions, or the thoughts of those nearby, or energy signatures (not sure what those are supposed to be), ........

quote:I'm not trying to say the seeminly out of body experience isn't REAL. I'm taking issue with what the experience actually IS.

I also want very desperately to know what is the underlying basis for these experiences.  This is why I spend virtually all my time while projecting, trying to get something to verify it. Instead of looking for the akashic records or some such thing. I think some folks might not understand my fixation with this point, but it sounds like you do.

Thank you for your time, we should really be doing this over a beer somewhere.

Patty

WOW David -

I don't know what to say - except it sounds like you are about to pass a huge hurdle. Maybe the last one?

Do you hold something in mind that is bigger than your fear? Maybe your higher self, or a belief that you are essentially indestructible, that sort of thing?  If you can find some thing that is bigger than this fear, maybe meditate on your oneness with that stronger thing for 15 minutes or so before your next attempt?

I haven't had to face that sort of fear. I felt I was possessed years ago, which was terrifying, and what helped me through that was a belief that God would be able to defeat whatever the experience was, and lots of prayer.  But in terms of OBE I haven't had that sort of fear.

So my comments might be way off.

Good luck!

Patty

1) 36
2) took less than a week (!) but I think this was due to the trauma of losing a child. Also - please define conscious projection. Awareness of exit? ?? I am not sure that there are only two types.
3) Some ideas resonate well and immediately, others I think are complete tripe.

My guess is that old age also has it easier ---I think one starts to become less entrenched in physical matters.

Kubler Ross spoke of the very young and the very old having wide open 'spiritual quadrants.'  People in the middle (like me I guess) are supposed to be more closed.

Patty

Congrats!  

Try remembering the feeling? the totality of it?

I am starting to think that our minds get wired for these things. the more you have them, the more your mind knows how to get back into the state.

not much advice I'm afraid.....

The eyesight is a common problem - you'll get the hang of it. I opened my eyes the first time too. Never happened again. Just allow yourself to perceive.

Patty

[altogether.]

Hi Atlas!

I haven't seen anyone here say that AP is real 'due to it's extreme vividness.'  Maybe you saw that on another site?

I HAVE seen lots of people intuitively recognize the experience as distinct from other types of consciousness. Those same people often ask what the heck was THAT? in response to some part of the experience.

I think we all recognize that it would be hard to identify a five digit number. What is your point here?

But this does not indicate one way or the other whether these experiences represent anything 'real.'  It is entirely possible that there is multiple input going on in the brain during this experience - some of it may be 'dream' input and some of it may be 'physical world'  input and I'm trying to oversimplify things for the sake of the conversation.

In short, no one argues that OBE's are exact replicas of the physical world. Yet critics always hold this as a test that is meant to somehow disprove them altogether.

I could go on and on but I am sure you have had this conversation before?

(incidentally, in almost every projection I try to look for a blindly placed object that I can later verify. It doesn't prove the experience, rather, it illustrates that experiencers hold skepticism about the experience.  It also is a good indicator that the experiences are truly distinct and recognizable, not 'just dreams' - i.e. I never try to 'validate' my dreams in this manner.)

Patty

Hi Jouni,

I don't know much about Kundalini except that it is likened to a serpent coiled at the base of the spine. Glowing white in todays pop culture is associated with higher spiritual states (eg light beings in NDE and so on). and raising kundalini is also supposed to be a sort of higher spiritual thing.  When Kundalini rises, one of the paths that it can take is called the 'path of fire'  (which the dragon face reminds me of.)

I wonder if Alpha has been reading some kundalini 'stuff' lately, and if these sorts of elements might have worked there way into the experience?

There's a long thread on the topic on one of the other forums (spiritual devel maybe? A lot of my thinking is derived from posts therein) but I haven't experienced much in regards to kundalini  ---except energetic awareness of the base of the spine.

I did happen to pull out a new yoga tape yesterday that is called 'kundalini yoga,' which mentioned the coiled serpent and the path of fire. But unless they meant that the poses would make your legs ache like they were on fire the next day I can't say I experienced much energy - wise.  (I'm really sore.)

Patty

Snake/glowing white/dragon mouth ----- Did any sort of Kundalini symbolism strike you (no pun intended) about this?

Patty

Hey Tisha!

You rock girl. Congrats on the four projections/one night - MAN.

I loved your comments re: ambiguity --- somewhere in the last few years I finally accepted 'not knowing' as my fate in life, and it is funny - I am both drawn to people of strong conviction (and wish I had some too) and at the same time can't think of a single conviction worth being certain of.

Well, maybe that we all exist, that we're all in this together. Buddhist convictions, if that's not an oxymoron, tend to resonate with me.

I love your insight re the universe. I'm not there by any stretch, but I love hearing when a person has a piece fall into place.  The amazing insight I had the other night - really a step for me - was a recognition of my own personal strength. (Heh, just this minute realized that I had been listening to tibetan chants surrounding the three great pillars of the spiritual life - one of which is inner strength. Maybe those chants really did something!)   It feels like a rock I can lean on. A very neat feeling.

See ya -

James - glad to hear that open minded skepticism exists!

Talk to y'all later -

Patty

[Now let's say you were raised believing that God's will is supreme.]

Hi to everyone,

I have shared my opinion before, and I'll try to make this the last time I meniton it.  I think it has to do with conflicting beliefs that you don't recognize.

Let's say a person is thinking:

"I want to OBE."  (Followed by practice.)

Nothing happens

"Man, I really want to OBE."  More practice.

Nothing happens.

"GOD, how I want this, WHY CAN'T I OBE?"  More practice.

Nothing happens.

As you become more and more set and intent upon this goal, you are beginning to set your agenda higher and higher in your mind. Now let's say you were raised believing that God's will is supreme.  Then, there is an inherent conflict here. Your subconscious knows this. Nothing is going to happen until you resolve the conflict.

Some people say that when you stop trying, it happens. That hasn't been my approach, but it might be consistent with this idea - because it means you are reducing the conflict by dropping your personal agenda.  I have personally always resolved this particular conflict by praying first that only if this act is within God's will, that I be allowed to experience it.  (this also helps me address fear, because I feel like I am in "God's hands" - even though I don't know that there is a God.)

There are lots of other possible conflicts. There are also lots of books that outline a good series of questions to help you identify conflicting beliefs. (one of them - heh - is something like "OBE in 30 days.")

I really hesitate to post this. On the one hand I think people probably already know this and are just going to resent the suggestion, on the other hand I think that if someone overlooked the possibility, that the tip might come in handy.

In any case, good travels, love and blessings,



Patty

CONGRATULATIONS!

Ah man that is too cool. You're right, there's nothing like the first time you realize you're dreaming. It's like "WOW! Here's this whole part of my life that I've been sleeping through!"

I don't have much advice on converting one to the other (though OBE -> LD seems to happen on its own for me, the reverse is a tough one.)  But maybe it means you're becoming more able to bring consciousness to a sleeping state? Maybe it means that you will have luck with projecting. The two kind of go hand in hand for me personally so this is definitely great.

Patty

Lucid dreaming increased spontaneously. I think LD and OBE are closely related.

RV ---- I started trying that after a while, it didn't increas on it's own but when I started attempting it, I found I had best luck when I approached it from the awake/asleep line, which is where I also like to be for projections.  So in a sense it increased, but only because I think the techniques overlap.

Patty

I probably can't help much here -

Have you come across mention that vibrations decrease over time? Like Monroe had them initially and (I believe) Robert mentioned that they only occur initially ----

Maybe you've been doing the energy work for long enough that you are past the vibration window? Which leads me to ask if you try different types of exit techniques? It seems that everyone has a different way to get out - some float out, some fall out, some rope out, some twist out, some pull out, some somersault out, etc etc etc.... One experience I had - a voice said basically 'just BE out" and that worked that time ----

Maybe if you try a different exit you will either exit without vibrations, or you willl achieve vibrations whence from you can exit?

Patty

I don't think you're mean, either Tom, and I didn't think there was particular fighting ... You seem very considerate, and you explain yourself well. I'm sorry for giving you a hard time! I had the image of that nun in my mind...... Going pale from your stated lack of faith, and I guess I assume you are pretty tough skinned! But now I feel like you wish you hadn't joined in.  

I have enjoyed all the tidbits from everybody. I really do think that speaking one's mind is a good thing

The only person who seems at all skeptical in the current cynical sense of the word is Jason but what a relief to hear skepticism from someone who experiences that which he is skeptical of. The 'skeptics' (actually a misuse of the word in my opinion) who have not experienced these things and yet are still convinced that they are all hogwash can be most unpleasant.

Patty

Hey k2sixx- So do it right now.

Write down anything you remember from last night. If you can't remember anything from last night, write down whatever is the most recent dream memory.

Hey hoovooloo-  Nah, I think I'll wait. (grin)

Patty

Thanks guys!

I write them down, but not in an organized fashion. I need to get them all together, be methodical.

If you're new - then I suggest writing your dreams down (and other stranger states of consciousness as well) because it reinforces it in your memory. Journaling your dreams is a good way to communicate to your subconscious "This is an important area of my life, I want to be more aware of it."  

If instead you wake up and feel like --"Nah, too much work, not gonna write it down...."  Well, that communicates a different message to your subconscious.

I usually just jot down a phrase or two from each dream. A detailed entry would be better, but even a short little thing is better than nothing.   it's funny to go back a few hours later and realize how much you would have forgotten if you hadn't written it down.

Patty

Hey Tom, I like this analysis that I heard:

BS = bovine excrement
MS = More of the Same
PhD = Piled higher and Deeper

I also like the idea that as you get more and more education, you keep learning more and more about less and less until you reach the point of knowing everything about nothing.

Tom - I like your ... shall I call it agnosticism? My favorite bumper sticker is "Militant Agnostic: I don't know and neither do you!"

Jason - speaking of education - if you're 25 and still in school, would that be graduate school? Please elaborate! I have an advanced degree myself, though I don't currently use it.

Patty

p.s. - I was afraid this thread would turn into a lot of nasty name calling and bad feelings. I almost didn't open it - but I am glad I did - I am impressed with the calm way everyone is sharing their opinion.

Jason! Cool that you can LD at will.

Patty

Hey K2,

I gotta say I don't think JE is really legit. Here's a link about how he 'does it' from someone who saw him in person (ie not an edited TV show where you only see what makes him look good, and by the way the show says "For entertainment only"):

http://www.iands.org/msgboards/messages/2/724.html?931691793

BUT PLEASE don't feel offended. Stick around and keep in mind if Tom can tell a nun that her body is going to remember nothing and she is destined for oblivion, well obviously he speaks his mind, which is a good thing.

Tom, the poor kid is only like 16.

Patty

Buon Jiorno, HooVooLoo!

Thanks for your thoughts! There's probably something to the idea that I am jumping around the actual card. I think that with time and trials, I will carry less fear about being right or wrong. Presumably then my fear won't keep me from landing on the right card.  At this point, each individual trial represents a large proportion of the running tally, so each trial carries more weight than it will down the road. In the moment at any rate.

About having dear hubby help - That brings its own problems. We actually have another experiment in progress. He sets something up on a high shelf. I can't see it or feel it unless I am out-of-body. I can post those results sometime if there is interest. We have had three trials so far, with reasonable success rates. The problems we encountered were that I can't see the objects (I project at night) so the object has to be identifiable by feel. (We get around this problem with the cards by putting them out every night under the nightlight in the bathroom.)  Another problem is that hubby is supportive only to a certain extent. He tolerates my interest, but he wouldn't be willing to be too involved in this pursuit - wouldn't place objects on a daily basis because he thinks the whole thing is dumb.

Some people feel that by having hubby involved, he may be communicating information to me  without us realizing it. It's possible. He might make some comment colored by what he placed, that I might be able to interpret.

Anyway ----- through the limited level of detail that I see repeatedly through my experiences - I should be able to discern red ace from black face card with reasonable accuracy.  After all - for all the shenanigans that that card pulled off (changing from one card to another) it never changed to a red ace.

We'll see what happens. the experiences are valuable in and of themselves, but verification is nice too.

I don't know about the residual energy idea. A definite problem with leaving the card out for too long is tha a family member might see it and make some comment or something that influences my attempt. So I prefer to put it out after the kids are asleep - right before I make my attempt.

Hi K2sixx!

I will give your idea some thought.  I think that my emotional energy is so deeply rooted about the card that it won't be distracted by the hairbrush. but a similar idea might be to not have any experiment - just go cruising around the neighborhood and see what checks out afterwards.

I consider doing that. We'll see.

Thanks guys!



Patty

Wow! Great feedback!

Thank you everyone!

Patty

Hi Grendel (Isn't that from Beowulf? Neat ID.)

Here's my two cents. Take it or leave it.

I think many people - including me - have underlying beliefs that may cause fear, really awful fear. A lot of those beliefs may not even be consciously recognized. Or some of them you may know but not appreciate the ramifications of.

For example, consider that if you learn to consciously project, you may change your personal self-identity. THis can be scary - it is like watching the 'you' that you know now change into a different 'you.'  Yut it goes beyond that - what if your family finds out? Your mom said not to do it. What if your friends find out and they don't want to hang around any more?

There is real possible LOSS from this sort of change in identity. In terms of change to self image, you're not talking about getting a new haircut here, and even that is sometimes scary! Heh.

If you spend time trying to think about what the upshot of success will be - what all the possible changes in your life will be - you will identify some of the conflicting thoughts that might be causing your fear. In my opinion the reality of projecting makes it all worthwhile, and even though my circle of friends has changed, that sort of thing happens through life anyway.

I continue to have fears crop up, but once it is recognized you can usually deal with it in some way.  I was raised catholic, my biggest fear is that I am opening myself to some negative evil force when I try to project. My two coping skills are (1) to realize that we basically vacate our bodies every night anyway and (2) to say a heartfelt prayer and affirmation beforehand to a higher power.

Good luck,



Patty