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One of the main thing that has been a problem in Freud research is that he based all his findings on people who were actually mentally ill and sick. He did not study normal people at all but only those who suffered mentally. Sure at the time he did all his research, beginning of the last century, sex was more tabu than it is now and it might have been on the mind of many (and it is still so unfortunately). So I guess Freud was right only for a specific "slice" of the population. For the rest he got a good introductory look into unsconsicousness.

As to Young we can be glad he seriously considered topics such as the "collective consciousness", where there is still much work to be done. I think they are both the basis for many things we know to day and I would give them credit for that, even if their time has passed.

Naqual,

I love plants too.

I grow plants and I feel fine at eating them.

However, if you give me a knife and an animal to eat, I will not be able to slaughter the animal, as the animal form is too close to the human form it really hurts me and I can feel the pain of the animal. The plants however are so different that I can hardly imagine how they suffer, even if they do. So that's why I do not eat animal. And if I would eat them, then why eating cows and chicken but not eating dogs and cats and squirels? So I found easier to not eat them and that's it. We can survive without meat and without fish, not a big deal. but don't underestimate me, if it is a question of life or death, a question of survival, then I will eat them. But for the moment it is not.

By the way, you wrote the "way nature works", be carefull as nature is not always very human! and even sometimes the nature is going against itself if I might say. That's another reason not to eat animals.

I knew Sidi Bel Abbes, a little locality in Morocco where the French army had once a head quarter (Legion Etrangere)

I knew Ali Baba and the 40 thieves...

I knew the Big Fat Baba, he was my 300 pounds neighbour.

and now I know Sai Baba...

For sure it seems that people have naively gone the wrong way. How one could believe in the spirituality of a person who is "materializing" watches (no matter if they are 2000 dollars rollex or 30 dollar timex) and rings to give to his disciples. First I do not believe one can materialize anything from nothing, and the energy it takes to materialize 30 gm of matter is enough to burn a whole building (from simple relativistic energy mass equation e=mc^2). Second this is not spiritual at all to give things that are so material to disciples. The world materialize says it all, it is matter not spiritual. A good master give spiritual things, not material things to his disciples, and what he gives cannot be seen as it is inside the person... I do not even need to consider the sexual assaults and harassments that have been brought up to the day light (there is not smoke without fire...), it is enought to consider such a material present as a watch or a ring to understand with whom we have to deal.

Leyla I stand by you!

I did not forget the 800 people who commited suicide some 20 years ago, who belonged to the Moon sect (or something similar). I do not forget neither those 10 (or so) who commited suicide in order to be able to get a ride on the Hale-Bop comet! (in 1997 I think. by the way, they were all castrated as part of their "cult"). So there must be an end to these abuses.

Hey Risy no Kairu,

quel gateau mangeais-tu lorsque tu fu attaque par les ninjas?

Les glandes surrenalles, are above the kidneys, and much smaller than the kidneys. If you are able to stimulate them and get adrenaline in your body, then for sure you won't sleep! If you want to stimulate you surenal glands (I guess that's the name in English) then drink a cup of coffee, as cafeine induce secretion of the glands to produce adrenaline that flows then into your blood, increases your hearbeat, your blood pressure, etc...

As to the vibrations, maybe you just focused on your shakra there, rather than on the surenals? Working on the shakras should get you there (vibs) too. The shakras are actual nervous centers in the body, in French : ganglions, and there are many of these along the spine and elsewhere...

Anyhow, good luck! []

Hey guys, sorry to fall in the middle like that...

Well the philospher is the one who knows a little bit of everything and the specialist scientist is the one who knows (almost) everything of a little bit. So sure if you want to look for an answer to philosphical questions you need to learn a little of everything, and it is not the one who knows everything about one field of study who will have the answer. Everyone has actually a piece of the puzzle, and the philospher is kind of trying to put the pieces together, without knowing what is that piece from/for ..etc...

As to chaos, there is the mathematical chaos, or even in the laws of PHysics. that's when there is no analytical solution to a problem, such as the problem of 3 bodies moving under their gravitational pull. Othere physical equations are what is called in math non linear and therefore they also can lead to chaos, which means that the motion and position of what we are looking at is impredictable (or predictable for only a very short time), such as the wheather, the shape of the clouds, boiling water, ... all these in the physics of fluids (gas, liquid) are called turbulence. Chaos is a whole field of study in math and physics.

Back to the void, you could say it is a place where there is  no matter and no space... but what do you mean by beyond the event horizon...? Mathematically speaking the equations are tricky there, they are what we call singular. And the physicists make a transformation to avoid the singularity, which mathematically invalidates the equations... so none really knows for sure. For us, who are observers from outside it takes an infinite time for anything falling on a black hole to reach the event horizon, which means it will never happen. Even the late Professor Emeritus Nathan Rosen (who did his Ph D with Einstein and is famous for the Einstein Polodovsky Rosen paradox in quantum physics - EPR) was claiming that we are outside and therefore there is not black hole out there, but only stars collapsing that are "tending" to be a black hole, and it will take an infinite time to complete the collapse of such a star. But it is easier to assume that there is a black hole (point singularity) there, as we do assume in astrophysics that stars a point mass for the purpose of studying their gravitational effect. So, I do not know what beyond the event horizon, and if you fall there the tidal forces will ript your body apart, and if (say) you go there while OBEing there I am not sure it will work since you do no have a mass and are not subject to gravitational forces in the astral.

As to cosmology and the theory of the big bang, yes people have been able to calculate what is happening in the first moment at the birth fo the universe/big bang, but I never heard any one say anything about what is "before" the big bang...  

And now back to the original posting of Leyla.
Be carefull Leyla that this guardian is not dangerous, as you know there are people who pretend to be "spirituel" and far from that (like the "babas" - if you see what I mean). Maybe you just don't need to meet that guy. And let us know if he is from the CIA or FBI...

Rusty,

sure the language is there for something, in that sens that it is with it that we learn to be able to understand more than we would otherwise. The concept of tomorrow, yesterday, next week, time in general is almost non existent in little children who have just started to speak. For them yesterday is anything that happened in the past, and tomorrow can be anytime in the future. It is the language together with the repetition that makes the physical world so real. You see everyday when I wake up I find the same world around me (though in my life I have move from place to place, country to country, continent to continent, ..), that world remains exactly the same, and it is subject to the same fundamental laws of Physics, and so on. However, each time I get back to the dream world I do not get back to the same place. It is always different, even when I get back to the same place, it never really looks twice the same. As to OBE, mine have usually ended in turning into a dream, but even there the world around me was not the same, there was no repetition. This is why it is so easy to understand and accept the physical world as a reality. Giving an interpretation to a dream is to relate that dream to the reality we have created in the physical world. Our unconscious part of us do not speak with us (usualy) with word, but it continues to speak with us in the same manner as when we were unable to talk, it communicates us feeling and stories, which is what we are giving to it. When we live something, we actually give our unconscious a story of it. The astral and dream have access to the "collective" consciousness (supposing that this is how it is), which for sure does not communicate with words, but again with pictures, feelings, stories. And these need to be interpreted in order of us (or maybe just for me?) to understand them in the reality of this physical world. It is thanks to that world that we can all communicate on this forum, and we do that using the English language (though mine could be better). The only way I can explain you something is through words. Now maybe if I was so skilled and you too we could meet in the astral and communicate by telepathie... well since this has not happened to me and that I haven't been able to find someone who could prove to me that it happened, then I need to continue and try to interprete, not only my dreams, OBE, but also my feelings and all the rest inside me, with words. This is as simple as that. As you said it correctly, it is the language. If for sure we initially have another way of communicating inside our own body/mind, and that the only way we can express that is with words, and that need to be interpreted, then for sure any other experience, whether a dream, an OBE, an NDE, all of them need interpretation. However, some interpretations are straightforward, like the ones that relate to our life in the physical world. However, all that is related to dream, OBE, NDE,... need to be interpreted very carefully.

As to the level of awareness in dreams and other state of the mind, that is not easy to answer. When I remember my dreams, I find that in some dream I was completely myself as when I am awake and the only difference is that I had to make an effort in the morning to rmemeber what happened. For things that happen in the physical world, I usually remember them without problem. After a long time I begin to forget them but I can still dig in to find them. After a longer time they seem to be lost for ever and I cannot remember them. The degree of awareness of awake is that one where you feel yourself and you do no forget what is hapening. Duing OBE that is what is hapening, during lucid dreams too, and during some vivid dreams too. However, for most of the common dreams it is not so, as you forget them or as you accept the dreams even if it does not look real (for example I dreamed of a guy with 4 eyes, but I did not thing it was unreal!). This is the degree of awareness as I understand it. The dream is a real experience, but it is not a reality. I dream that I have a limb cut off but the next morning I do have my limb back. If in the physical world I have a limb that is cut off, then it will remain so for the rest of my life. Reality is clearly first in the physical, it is our starting point, it is a stable world from which we can take support. WHile the dream world, the OBE world is not a stable world, it is changing without notice... and therefore one cannot relay on what 's there, since what's there can vanish. It does not mean that there are no realities there, but what there is different and need to be interpreted (assimilated) in order to be accepted in the physical world with our mind.

that was long too!

It is normal to get mad at times... but if you got mad at someone, it is also normal to come and apologize for being mad, like when you get mad at your child because of something terribly wrong the child did and could not control yourself (you get mad but you dont hit anyone, understand..?) then it is also completely normal to come to the child and hug the child and apologize for being mad. So if someone looses her/his temper for a short while, that's ok, but it is even better if that someone apologizes (it might be better maybe not to get mad, sure, but here we are talking about someone who alread got mad). And once you apologize, it would be nice if the person you apologize to would fogive you. All this are signs of some kind of wisdom and modesty. Not that I am the best example, when I get grumpy I turn big and all green (wait and you'll see what happens to my avatar...). at times it is OK to take your "grumpiness" out, cause if you keep that inside it might hurt you as well. But once all is over, it would be good to be again good friends and take that not too seriously. Now I don't know who and what happened, I am just telling you what I think in general about "anger management". And don't take example from the old testement and new testement, because there there are examples not to follow. Now, when I say mad, I do not mean that one yells like a monster, destroy things like a hulk and behave like a monkey, that would be a bit goint to far. You can get mad, but still be in control of your anger. Losing control of that is the wrong step. So you don't need to have total control of emotions, but you need to have the 'final' control of emotions. You can let the steam a little out, but don't let the engine explode, you can get mad but with some controle over it, some "guidance",... it is quite a lot of energy that we are talking about, so if it cannot be stopped it has to be "channelled" the right way (for example do 1 hour of kickboxing at the club to relax, break your guitar, yelled to the skies,... - but do not do that in front of the person who angers you and do not do that TO the person who angers you, etc...).

Oh, and by the way, I noticed that if you have strong emotional thoughts about someone who is at the same time sleeping, you can induce that person to dream about your emotions toward his/her. So be careful, you can cause nightmares without knowing it.

Bonjour Leah...

bienvenue sur le forum....

I am a bit at the opposite, as I grew up not very far from where you are right now and am in the US for a little while...

I d'like to hear more about your experiences. For me animals deserve to be treated in much better ways that they are treated, the problem of course is that human is not even treating human humanely.. but that's another story. Anyhow, I am vegetarian, as my avatar (picture) depicts.

The gadgets on the forum... yes everyone is like inspector gadget II here...

Shaman the Dreamer

The Earth does not belong to us, we belong to it
(native american proverb)

The time will come when men will look upon the murder of animals as
they look upon the murder of men
(Leonardo da Vinci)

For as long as space endures
And for as long as sentient beings remain,
May I also abide
To relieve the suffering of living beings.
(A prayer by Shantideva that His Holiness The Daila Lama recites every day)

I do feel that spiritual progress does demand that at some stage
we should cease to kill our fellow creatures for the satisfaction
of our bodily wants
(Mahatma Gandhi)

There are mushrooms, poisoneous mushrooms and mushrooms that stayed too long out of the fridge - these last one are poisonous too...

ANy how, just to add a few words, Mandrake (like in Harry Potter) is a plant that is well known to induce what is clinically called hallucinations. And that's how the witches are flying, by getting intoxicated with Mandrakes and possibly having induced OBEs. One of the explanation is that these plants are able to produce an OBE. This comes to the next step which is actually that some people using other drugs do actually (when they overdose) induce what seem to be OBE. I have read some accounts of such "experiences" on the site of NDE, since these people were actually in a "coma" state, and while in the coma they saw themselves from outside their body. One account is about this guy who freaks out when he realised he is kind of dead. Eventually He calls for help and here comes to the rescue his Guardian (higher self?) and takes him for a ride in the astral realm... All these seems to be more like OBE  (though clinically classified as halucinations), usually very close to the physical plane.

And again and again let me refer you to the NDE site, where the initial start of the NDE is actually almost always an OBE in the real plane http://www.iands.org/

However, I do agree with Sike, that I would rather OBE all by myself without any "external" assistance ...

As to the potential physical harm these can cause,.. I do not know, but I'll give as answer what I have heard from a physician talking about the exctasy pills "these chemicals are never found naturally in the human body, not even in very small amounts and none knows what they do to the body, so I would not try that on myself for any reason on earth even if you give me 10,000 dolllars"... just by precaution.

I like mushrooms with roasted walnuts and tofu, slightly fried, over brown rice with some dill and raisins too... delicious.

Shaman The Dreamer

RJA,

What you wrote is in accord with the testimony of NDErs where death of the physical body is only the end of the ego

http://www.iands.org/

And thanks much too for answering the original post on symbolism.

Shaman The Dreamer

Both in dreams and in OBEs interpretation is needed at some times and is not needed at other times. The main question that remains is when exactly interpretation is needed and when exactly one can assumes that the OBE and Dream are translucid and depict a clear reality?

AS Jeff wrote, I agree that dreams and OBEs are exploring the same world but with a different state of the mind/consciousness. If this world comes at times with symbolism then in both cases (OBEs and dreams) interpretation is then needed.

IN the real time (physical plane) astral world you still explore the same world as in dreams. Some dreams are in the real time (physical plane), in that sens that you can dream you are in your house, appartement, work, room, etc... In both cases (OBE and DREAMS) you will be in  a place that you know with some little differences with the reality. What I am trying to say is that during dream we can access the same world we do during OBE, the difference is in our state of consciousness. And consequenlty in some instances interpretation is required.

This story if very very fishy!!

These little caps are just a new fashion for those who cover their head when they go to the temple...

Happy Hag Sukot!

But, let me add an extremely serious note. There is what is  called the e-bomb, which is a bomb that do not explode but that produces a huge amount of electromagnetic waves, so strong that it is supposed to destroy all the electronics of the enemy. One way to protect electronic instruments from that (and from lightening atually) is to wrap the instrument with an aluminium foil, or to put it in a metal box, so that electromagnetic waves cannot penetrate it.

And by the way, you cell phone is probably more dangerous to your brain than the waves from the satelites...

Use it well...

So we should be able to see the future and know all what will happen in the world... interesting to see that none has done that till now... I haven't seen someone giving exact premonitions of some important event... and a priori, not a posteriori? Why isn't it so? Why nobody comes with a very specific premonition that happens  to be true? Is it because the astral world is like the dream world and its symbolism needs to be interpreted correctly? (and I am not talking about the posting of the reptilians living underground about to invade us... but about something more realistic, such as a very specific political event, or about a war, or a natural disaster,...)

By the Way, Dino, are you really Dino... originally from Romania? Is that you?

Hey Jongen, Hoe gaat het ?

you remind me of the people I was with when I did a French Baccalaureat. They would get high like you and then study for the final test. One of them was proud to tell me that in that way he was able to remember all what was in the book of geography/history (a large volume) after he closed it and finished reading/studying it. Well, I was able to reach that state but without the 'hash', just by concentrating. Or this other guy was explaining me how "smoking" helps him to play guitar, that he can actually hear the music he plays and moves forward and backward in the music, a little bit as if time was elastic, that would unable him to play and improvise better, as he would be aware of the notes that were played much before, etc... Again, with only concentration, it is possible to reach the same state. The 'high' state that you describe is a state of mind that can be reached naturally without the aid of any other "ingredient". And of course t'is the same for OBE.

Shaman The Dreamer

As Syke mentioned, we dream the whole night, the problem is just to find a way to remember the dreams. Actually there is a 90 minutes cycle of sleep that repeats istself (every 90 min) through the night. It starts with a very light sleep (close to the hypnagonic state) followed by a deeper sleep. You might be dreaming all the time, but the dreams that are usually remembered and that are the most vivid are the ones that happen during the REM phase. The REM phase is when you start to sleep extremely deeply, so much that it is difficult to wake you up. At that moment you start to dream (long dreams) and your eyes start to move rapidly (from there the name REM = Rapid Eye Movements). After the REM you come back to the very light sleep to start another cycle of 90 min. The chance are when you wake up in the night or in the morning all by yourslef that you wake up during the light sleep, after the dream period.

There are many ways to remember your dreams and you might want to try all of them combined together. As you sleep more during the night, you have more easy to remember your dreams. So the best is to be able to sleep 8h. If you sleep not enough, you might never be able to remember any normal dreams (except for nightmares and premonitions). THen as Syke said, do not use an alarm clock to wake up. Once you stop sleeping, do not get up, do not move in your bed. WHen you realise you finish sleeping, just stay there in your bed, without moving and try to remember the "feeling" of the dream, whatever you can from it. Another good practice is autosuggestion. Before you go to sleep, repeat to yourself that you want to remember your dreams, that your dreams are important to you. You have to actually convince your unconscious that dreams are indeed important to you and that you want to remember them. Have a little notebook to write down your dreams everyday. Keep it next to your bed, with a flashlight or with a night light, and a pen. Before you go to sleep, write the date and write in it that you want to remember your dreams and that your dreams are important to you. Keep it next to you and go to sleep. If you wake up in the middle of the night or in the morning and are able to remember anything, then write it immediately down. It takes about 2 weeks for that method to start working properly. If you are sleeping with someone, it might be more difficult of course.

Good luck.

Completely right Lilith!

Most of that are ceremonies, processions, where the witch light candles (of all size and colors) with insens (herbs,..) and make a prayer. Especially the white magic, there are prayers to God actually. So it is really a religion in that sens of the term. Eventually an experience wiccan does not need the candles, the herbs, and all that, he/she just needs her/his will, or the power of the prayer if you prefer.

White magic is also in accord with the Earth and Nature (including stars,...). (green wizardry).

It is actually not very far from shamanism, in that sens that shamanism does not make any "dark magic" but only "positive magic". There is the sorcerer who might be doing some dark magic too, but the Shaman only deals with white magic when he/she deals with magic.

There was a similar posting and I think Tisha answered it in part by saying that when you focuse your attention on the vibrations, they go away. You have to let go, not to focuse your attention on the hapening. That's why it is often suggested that you visualize something, an object that you know and concentrate on seeing it, so that your attention is away from the vibrations. You have to keep on trying and try not paying attention to the vibrations. Another way is to concentrate on the "sound" of the vibrations. When the vibs reaches your ears, you hear a whistling, I found it very easy to concentrate on the whistling of the vibs rather than on the vibs themselves, and it does not make the vibs go away. Imagine you are in the middle of the New York Ochestra and everyone is playing the picolo (little flute) in your ears. So you might want to try that too.

They are really two different parts of yourself, but it is so for everyone on this planet.

When I was younger I used to talk in my sleep, but I never woke myself up, I used to wake up my brother who was sleeping in the same room... Once I asked him what was I saying in my sleep and he said I was complaining "I've got enough!"...

You might want to try to make a "reality check" when you think you are waking up to make sure you woke up. Check whether you are in the physical or astral/dream before you get out of bed... All that is pretty much like lucid dreams. It is not straightforward to wake up from lucid dreaming. ONce I tried to wake from a lucid dream and the dream vanished, but I did not wake up! I was in the "dark-void" place, I had only my mind, no body, no physical sensation of any kind, no light, no sound, just my mind and I was not able to wake up immediately. I can understand you when you write you are a bit scared and confused when you are unable to wake up and get into a loop.

Maybe as some suggested, instead of saying to yourself "hey what's hapening again?!", you could actually decide otherwise and say "OK, fine, let's visit the astral world a little bit..."? just a suggestion.

I hope you do fine!!

That's the hypnagonic state. It is  the state of mind between awake and asleep. WHen you fall asleep as well as when you wake up, you pass through that state. Usually people do not really notice it. It is a state similar to asleep in that sens that images from dreams with sound, voices, etc... appear, while your conscious is completely awake. It is a completely normal state of mind. Usually however the content of the imagery/sound/voices that you see is different than in your dreams. For example you are dreaming and as you start to wake up in the morning the dream vanishes, you start taking consciousness of that and then you start seeing pictures/images and hear sounds not related at all to the dream you just had. That's the hypnagonic state. Then you fully wake up. The interpretation of what you hear and what you see is .. up to you to decide, like the dreams. It is from that state that you can try to project (OBE)...

I oftern hear voices when I go to sleep, see some weird pictures... or in the morning I hear nice music, etc... and that's completely separated from the dream world, while I am conscious...

Hey,

I replied to your topics on your other posting, but since I've got  more to say I am adding it here...

You can "influence" and even "enter" someone dreams when you "awake". This happened to me unvoluntary. If you think or have very strong emotions for someone while this person is sleeping, this person will dream about you, and the subject of the dream will be related to the emotions you have for that person. For example if you are upset at someone, you can induce that person nightmare where you are the source of the trouble in the dream.

Shaman The Dreamer

Hey Beavis,

Thanks for informing about that "saliva" thing...

Real Shamans (not like me, just a dreamer...) are in state of extasy for very long. These are very long "ceremonies" where the Shaman eventually leaves his body to "go to work" (e.g. tries to catch back the spirit of the dying person, etc...). So that's what I was refering to.

As to herbs and weeds, I either eat them (see enclosed avatar for details...) or at most I used them as incens... I never intoxicate myself with anything... I reach the "other world" only during dreams, lucid or not, and take my "information" from there....

Shaman The Dreamer

Je suis tombe par terre, c'est la faute a Voltaire...
Le nez dans le ruisseau, c'est la faute a Rousseau.

Your are most welcome.

Check this site too:

http://www.deoxy.org/shaover.htm

It has some interesting things too related to NDE, OBE and of course Shamanism...

Shaman The Dreamer

Some meet their SG during OBE, others speak with their SG with their eyes closed and in a quiet place, they just listen to the "voice" in themselves, etc... It is written (even here on this forum) that the SG is actually a part of your own soul that did not incarnate at your birth and that is out there to help you and guide you, and when you die you are suppose to get back together with the SG, etc... SG can also appears in dreams under different appearences. From the point of view of the psychology, the SG is your very inner self submersed in the unconscious part of your mind, and when you meet him/her in dreams it is supposedly you unconscious that is telling you something (in addition to normal dreams). So, one way or another, the SG is that other part of you that is there to help you and assist you. Remember that in dreams, all come with symbolism and imagery...

There is a member on this forum, her name is "Leyla" on the forum, who posted that she could enter the dreams of her roomate. You might want to try to address your question to her or to send her a private message or email through the astralpulse by clicking on her username (click on members and then enter the name of the member or search in alphabetic order, then you can actually click on the name to see the profile and send message to that person). She has been posting a message about a "guardian", you might want to try to contact her there too.

E-dreamer,

I understand that it is not confortable and that you do not like spontaneous OBE.

Did you have an NDE (Neart Death Experience - got almost killed) in your life? I ask you that because I am requenting a forum on NDE and it seems that a few people who had NDE, started to have spontaneous OBE after there NDE. One for example would drive her car and OOOOOPPPPSSS she would suddently see herself from above... very dangerous when on the road of course.

You can check the site http://www.iands.org/    and look at all what they have there.

Anyhow, it might be good for you to read all the books you can find on OBE (and the ones of Robert Bruce are pretty good! - there is one at least on line). If you read more on OBE then you can understand and be less afraid of the situation. Maybe even you can control the situation?

I had spontaneous OBEs only a few times: once during sleep, once when I fainted, etc... but not in my normal state of mind.

I would definetly suggest you to explore your state of mind (OBEs) in a meticulous and almost scientific manner, so that you familiarize yourself with it and lear the "laws" of it (if there are any).

What is what you called "sleep paralysis"?

You might want to try to exercise, as all this might be also related to maybe a physical condition (tiredness, stress??) - I do not know, I am just trying to help.

Good luck!