Messages

Given the power of consciousness, I would never rule anything as impossible.

This is where the phrase I often use come into its own...

"Aspects Of Consciousness".

This is actually where we will see if consciousness can arise from a 'simulated' or 'invented' intelligence. Whatever the claim stipulates there is still a possibility that consciousness awareness could arise from a self improving intelligence... given certain parameters.

A simulation within a simulation.

Hench why I have been saying to Lionheart that these threads I have created are intimately connected. 

Why not?
Our evolution from the primordal soup has allowed us enough to know this. A digital automated environment thats evolving would leave us behind in the dust on an evolutionary scale. At this present time the AI is a simple program. Its a database system with some analytical requirements. It CANNOT think for itself YET.
The day it can we will be placed in a changing predicament bigger than the invention of the wheel. This time, its not us at the top.
The Borg although unpleasant are nothing to the ruthlessness that would ensue. We would be looked upon as bacteria polluting the new environment thats evolving for this logic based system.
We would be surplus to requirements and eradicated.

I have to disagree with this logic.  I think a lot of the concerns are unfounded or not thought through sufficiently and coloured by the movie world, almost every movie dealing with this subject portrays the rise of AI the way you have here Szaxx.

It is illogical to think human beings are mere destructive bacteria which need to be eradicated.

For starters, the type of AI you are speaking about would not be overly interested in biological life to the point where it 'decides' to be a guardian of it and eradicate what it feels is 'spoiling' it.

The environment which AI requires might need to be specific or might not.  Certainly if you are speaking about robots doing manual tasks which free up their fleshly creators to focus on other things  these are already existing and pose  no threat to the welfare of humans apart from making work redundant, which is not the fault of the AI, but the system we are presently operating from.

Those systems (or these systems) are effectively programs which are not holistically helpful to the human experience – they benefit some and may as well regard others as 'surplus to requirement' and do more damage in reality than the perceived damage robots might do.  Yet we seem more able to come up with reasons why it is not a good idea to build AI while at the same time seem unable to recognise the damage being caused by the systems we support, and even as we do, we seem unable to come up with alternate systems which can over ride and fix our present problems.

Ironic.

So perhaps the underlying reasons for suspecting AI is that they are created by something which is not altogether a fine example of intelligence and that the AI will mimic their creators?

As the video suggests – the more we use and create/discover uses for computers – for technology – the more we will discover that we are not so individual after all, and this realisation might well help wake us up to that and the realisation may be the thing which finally helps us to discard the program systems of the past and create ones based upon the kind of future which enables everyone equally.

But as I have claimed – it is most likely there is already an aspect of humanity which is working together as a well oiled machine, not involved in the human drama but involved in alternate focus aligned with the agenda of Consciousness – which this thread topic is exploring.

AI already exists... it has done since we started creating simulated enemies in computer games.. these by their very existence are artificial.

When computers are taken to the next level and become 'intelligent' then it ceases to be artificial and becomes... Actual Intelligence... luckily the acronym doesn't change.

Computers becoming intelligent would probably 'wake up' a hell of a lot quicker than we are going to... have started to. We have no idea how they will take form.

If an AI interface is invented then what form 'could' it take?

Either it is placed within a machine that can see this world and make decisions based upon the environmental choices available... or it will be an internal system where it creates its own learning environment.. and so the fractal process continues where it takes on the same dividing and multiplying individuated cell process within simulated environments... which is Campbell's view... and coincidentally and wonderfully comes full circle to your original thread.

Except that my original thread claimed that these systems are all simulations because they had a beginning and it also inferred that something which had no beginning was the reason these simulations existed...which is a model Campbell seems resistant to examining but might also provide more insight.

Indeed the wonderful thing about simulations are that they can be pulled apart to see how they  run, what purpose these simulations provide etc.

Just as this thread is doing in regard to the past present and particularly the future role Consciousness is involved with in this physical universe.

The assumption being that the "astral" came before the physical and is why the physical exists.

In regard to AI, yes it does exist, if only in a very simple way. 

It seems that intelligence does not require self awareness on any level, but it is an advantage of sorts to have self awareness, and definitely in regards to interstellar exploration and understanding.

We can look at Curiosity on Mars right now.  It is its own laboratory, drilling
and grinding rock samples  – the AI are a programme, and can work independently.  But while it might gather and analyze and store data, it is not aware that it even exists.

One could imagine a craft which is programmed to explore, to mine resource and turn this into materials which it can use to increase its size etc but it would be stuck within the parameters of its programmes and even that those programmes would need to included the ability to learn and advance, it would still be inadequate for the task, too susceptible to anomalies – too much a machine no matter how intelligent it might be.

Scientist will eventually have to understand that what is required to maximise the success of this project is to see that intelligence alone will not cut it.

What is required is Consciousness, and Consciousness does not evolve from intelligence.

Consciousness can work outside programming.  It can work within programming but can over ride programmes, adjust them, etc...it can 'think out of the box, and above all it has the ability to be self aware.

AI is a step in a direction but is not the final product.

Try seeing AI like some some see those humans who are not 'awake' - what they are suggesting is that while the 'non-awake' are alive, they are not fully awake to the realization of what being alive means.

They are not fully Conscious.

That this is the case apparent, did not stop consciousness from entering the human experience, and has not stopped consciousness being involved with it - hands on.

To say that all people who don't embrace technology, avoid it because of fear is akin to saying that all who do are fat and lazy. It is generalizing at it's zenith.

Tech, is good so long as it serves a purpose of eventual good. It may not be evident for decades to come though and in the meantime, it may be harming millions.

Naturally, William will want some examples and I have them aplenty.

I was of course referring to the conspiracy paranoia posted and commenting on that fear.

Your list of what harm technology does is appropriate - please give those examples.

I would say (and please don't hesitate to correct me) that we are spirit (Consciousness) living in a material world, as the saying goes.  How are we 'harmed'?  Is Consciousness harmed in the interacting within this physical universe?

Its still related to the thread. Its our physical world and Watergate was a stinker. I remember it too. The military armaments of today youll not see for decades. Smart mines were being made in the early 80's. It's a different scene totally.
Governments are covered well already, they are a slow moving machine with a key few in the know. The rest use 'others' for real advice the world over.
Its a crazy world and to fit in you sometimes have no choice but to follow orders.

I cant see people being electronically controlled just yet. Emotional values are too strong. Once conditioned ....
Will has a point on our evolution. To boldly go further will involve our conciousness, a developing mind is where this technology would work best. Lets face the facts, the first few years of life wire our brains in a big way. Open some doors here and you never know the limits.

It is a crazy world yep  But that has a lot to do with the way humans have evolved, and power and control issues...not so much to do with the Galaxy – the environment.  It is wonderful rather than crazy – sure there are dangers but there are developing ways of making things a lot less dangerous.

We need to understand that fear is what gets us every time.  I know it needn't really be said but maybe what does need to happen is to really examine what it is that we do fear.

Military and government, culture and religion, industry all evolved through fear above all else.

Fear of the future is a pretty big one as well.

Clinging to the past, to faulty identity, to the flesh etc...these things have underlying fear attached to them.

Yes in the past every technical advantage may have been used for military purposes but it's a new time. We can't continue to look back if you want to create a future. We should look forward into what can be done and is possible.

Hanging on to the past is on a recipe to conjure up the past, Changing and moving forward into new beliefs is how we evolve.
One of the first things I learned when I got into spirituality was not to believe in everything I read and to not hold on to the beliefs that I believed to be true. Yes those beliefs may have been true but over time they WILL change because change is inevitable, in everything and everyone. Including the government(s). No matter how messed up things have been, all things take time so lets stop making it harder on the younger generation with these fairy tale beliefs of "No that can't happen because in the past it was this way, or that way." ~ Made O pHI
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_integral_philosophy/our_future_in_the_physical_universe-t40012.0.html;msg327798#msg327798


Just think if they can get the Youth of today used to wearing these things, what's going to stop the Adults of tommorrow from continuing this trend. It will become common place to be chipped every where you go, in the name of personal security. ~ Lionheart
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_integral_philosophy/our_future_in_the_physical_universe-t40012.0.html;msg327803#msg327803

I know where your coming from with this though cuz I use to think that all that stuff was to control us more but if you actually think about it it's a way of the future to make our lives easier. The conspiracies behind everything is just what make people scared to embrace the technology so we're over here working our A** off because were scared of technology. Imagine life without all your kitchen electronics, ha we'd be working our a** off even more just to eat ! Technology is the only way to advance to a better civilization. But we can't do so with our fear based beliefs behind technology.

But conspiracies are conspiracies for a reason, they aren't real but they serve a GREAT purpose. And that's for us to find out what purpose they serve.
"Without fear there is no love, without love there is no change." Ponder that :p ~ Made O pHI

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_integral_philosophy/our_future_in_the_physical_universe-t40012.0.html;msg327806#msg327806

The video that Wi11iam posted basically said that we were going to altered into some kind of machine. That we were going to literally be changed into some kind of high tech robot.

Did you watch the video? ~ Lionheart

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_integral_philosophy/our_future_in_the_physical_universe-t40012.0.html;msg327809#msg327809

No I didn't watch it either lol. I just seen your comment so I assumed it was talking about how our technology would advance and better us, not turn us into cyborgs.
That's fault on my part, I aploogize. ~ Made O pHI
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_integral_philosophy/our_future_in_the_physical_universe-t40012.0.html;msg327811#msg327811

We are all free to believe what we want. I see the same things happening over and over again and no motivation in most people to change. The easier tech makes our lives, the easier we want it to get. Who said this was supposed to be about easy meals and such? ~ Simon
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_integral_philosophy/our_future_in_the_physical_universe-t40012.0.html;msg327816#msg327816

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I decided to group these posts together and quote the things I particularly want to comment on.

Firstly, I need to say that I consider misinformation to be damaging.  As far as I can remember, I have never put a link to my video series about robotics and the future.

Secondly I make a point that it is not 'borg-like' throughout the series.

Consciousness as I understand it, is not a borg although it is capable of knowing your every thought and action because you are of it, even as you think you are individual.
Said another way, it see through your eyes and experiences you every activity, whatever reality you find yourself in.

It is what we are, as I have continually expressed.

The natural evolution into technology is where Consciousness (we) are heading –toward.  It is evident and unavoidable.

Any fear associated with this can be sourced in religion (the bible – 666 etc) and in lack of knowing for sure who you are – or otherwise having an incomplete or false or misinformed understanding of your true nature and identity.

This misinformation is exactly what has been used for eons to control the minds of the masses, and is still operating today, although it has lost a lot of power as people switch on to that which technology is making available to them.

It is a slow process, this reconfiguration of self identity and many are resisting it because it is way out of their comfort zones, and also because we have been so used to these bodies they are hardwired even at DNA levels – they are not very good conductors of the holistic nature of Consciousness because they are so individual, so susceptible, so unable to allow prior existence data through but they are also quiet the tool for creating tools with.

Also they give a very genuine experience of a beginning which has been very useful for Consciousness – to be precise, the aspect of Consciousness directly involved with this Galaxy, or more precise too, to the aspect of Consciousness directly involved with this Planet.

That sounds rather mystical, and I would like to elaborate on this – but not in this particular post.

Truthfully, it is up to the individual what they will choose.  I have not chosen either way because I am still accessing the data.

I do not think brain implant chips are just around the corner but I do think GPS type chips are – identity chips, tracking and what have you and I don't have any reason why not to have one, but am open to discussion.

Back to the topic subject focus, biological critters are not built for interstellar travel and so are not suitable for Consciousness for that purpose.
I can imagine a 'time' when aspects of Consciousness were contemplating 'going into' the density of this physical universe and arguing the merits of the unknown, arguing the possible pros and cons but guess what?  It happened!

Yeah... your Ouija board mirror thing is beautiful. Very impressive.

I like the way all the intersections mean something and that they are more open to interpretation and exactness than the YES/NO alphabet and number scenario.

Yes Thank you Ben - I was encouraged through the communication process to develop it this way, as I speak about in the videos. 
Nowadays when I feel the 'need' I use another method which I have developed from this - it evolved as it were - it does not lose the intimacy but is a lot faster and more practical.

I am not sure if I speak much about how this process evolved from using the Mirror to how I now do it - I think I do - but anyhow - if I start a thread on it, I will be happy to share both why I started studying the Ouija principle and developed these particular devices and how this evolved...

I know it annoys you to get off topic but would you please explain your mirror of the Earth. I never understood what your avatar was until I saw it in the member's art thread.

It is amazing to say the least and completely fascinating to look at. I am not asking from a critical stance, I just want to know what inspired you to may such a beautiful piece that appears to be so much more than just art.

Thanks,

A fan.

The answers to your questions can be heard on my you tube channel regarding these art works Simon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYGEseV-w54&list=PL6fZF9xJoBFSCDJQjJDhV4-1mOli6NU7v

Understandably the videos are long for the purpose of in depth explanation – you would need to be genuinely interested.
It is not unrelated to this topic but most likely could do with its own thread – something I am contemplating.

 

Wi11iam I just wanted to tell you a say a few things here.

Before I post a reply to anybody here I have learned how important it is to go back into their "posting history" and see what i can learn. Then and only then can I properly answer their questions or post to the best of my knowledge.

I just recently found your Youtube channel and have looked at some of your videos there, definitely not all 70 though.

I see that you had an experience, like many people here do that has led you to question almost everything, your entire existence.

Tom Campbell talks about people seeing what they need to see when they need to see it.

I too had an "eye opening" experience, which consequently led me to the Astral Pulse.

At first I learned everything I could to try and learn to consciously Phase/Project. I was a great student and read every PDF and book I could find.

I began to practice what I learned and was successful, until the day I started questioning everything. I found when I started to do that, I couldn't Phase anymore. This went on for about a month.

When I finally just decided to just allow what happens to happen and drop the questions, I was "allowed back in. But this time I was constantly reminded to "just observe" and a good observer I became.

Okay Lionheart –
I am wired to question everything, and am happy to do so.
As I have mentioned in other threads, it is not my intention to learn to 'travel' and when it comes to 'access denied' I tend to see this as 'something to hide' so *shrug* and get on with what I can get on with.
To further explain, I am not one to make choices based upon limited data – Fully informed is the best, and fine print is suspect.
This is not to say that I haven't made choices without full information, but that having done so I have learned that it doesn't usually work out great for me – usually I find myself in a position which advantages another and disadvantages me.
Importantly, if I cannot learn from this, I will have to continue to go through that process until I do.
I too am a good observer.

I see you have now turned into a Philosopher of types,, but unfortunately without an audience. You are definitely a "Thinking Man" and that's not a bad thing to be. You just need to ALLOW the answers to funnel through you. Do this and they will come.

I can also see that all your questions have hindered your "experiencing" anything in the NPR consciously aware anymore.

Just to emphasis, it is my choice entirely.  I do not consider this to be a handicap but I am open to your reasons as to why I should see it this way.
I don't quiet see why you have found it necessary to counsel me to 'allow the answers to flow through me' – can you elaborate– bearing in mind the thread topic – in a way that ties in with this topic?

I do want to say though, I was highly impressed by your "Glass Mirrors of the Earth". Those are spectacular and very creative. You have put a lot of thought and symbolism into them. They are incredible pieces of Art in my opinion. I too create "Wheels" of sorts, but use them mostly as portals for my NPR exploration. Definitely something you should try as well. 

I appreciate your compliments on the artwork.  Would you not agree that I have indeed used these as a 'portal'?  A Communications portal to be precise.

I get it that you are hinting I can use these as a way to move into the non physical reality.  I am open to more data from you regarding this process.

Also it might be prudent to mention that I consider astral travellers to be scouts, adventurers of sorts who sail the different oceans to discover and report back their findings.

Having said that, at present my overall impression is that they are experiencing something of a subjective thing which is unique to their personality – their individual sense of self identity and while there are similarities in their reports, I have as yet to find objectivity in these reports.

I questioned an "End Game" before because you have now created 3 different threads, all based on the same idea. Once a thread goes dry, you wait awhile and come back and start the conversation over again under a different "guise" per say.

What is it that you wish to hear here? What can other members here finally say to you to give you "piece of mind" once more?

That's what I mean when I ask the question, "what is your end game"?

I think I have made this more clear since your post Lionheart.  I don't consider the threads have 'gone dry' I consider them to be intimately connected and they represent different approaches.

The typo "piece of mind' is quiet relevant.  We are like piece of a vast puzzle.  Getting on the same page will verify this and give us an objective picture.

I have seen many members here reach out to you to respond to your questions or "philosophies", but then you turn around and question what they have to say.

Every answer leads to more questions which leads to more answers, which leads to more questions, until finally people here start to tire of it because they see it's going nowhere fast.

Yes this is a open Forum and we are currently in under the heading of "Welcome to Integral Philosophy", so in turn you have done nothing wrong.

But if you start to be more inviting to people and show them you are listening, instead of just debating them all the time, you will see that more people will respond to what you have to say.

No one can prove what is right and what isn't right now. Everyone has there own truths based on what they are "seeing" and experiencing themselves in the NPR. Those become their truths.

I have touched on this in explaining why.  I am attempting not to teach but rather to get people to question their own pov by uncovering apparent contradictions etc.  It is simply okay to question what others have to say, as it is part of the the communication process – or more to the point – it is appropriate to 'transparency' which is the most advantageous form of communication.



I have to say there is more than a touch of the religious in your expression here Lionheart.

Do you think NPR (or any reality) is unable to teach in more ways than one?  Is it truth you are being taught?  I realise you believe it is, but how do you know?  What processes have you put your teaching through that it has proved itself as truth?

For example, is withheld information  or misinformation helpful to anyone in discovering truth?


Do you think NPR (or any reality) is unable to teach in more ways than one?  Is it truth you are being taught?  I realise you believe it is, but how do you know?  What processes have you put your teaching through that it has proved itself as truth?

For example, is withheld information or misinformation helpful to anyone in discovering truth?

I am going to listen to more of his Youtube videos, but you might want to shorten them up a bit. You seem to say the same thing over and over again. It's great info, but it seems like it takes you a long time to make a single point.

The biggest complaint and the only one I know of that is made on Tom Campbell, is that he takes a long time to answer one question and that comes across a boring and too drawn out for most.

I have not recorded a youtube vid for a while now.  They are simply there for those who find them – it is information.
I have read criticisms regarding Tom's repetitive nature and can see why he does this.  He is targeting his peers – scientists.  In this he is very aware of the subject topic as being 'fringe' and understands the sceptical nature of scientists and wants make the point at every opportunity.

I am obviously not a showy charismatic character and I want to be seen to be spontaneous and unscripted and genuine. 

When it comes to 'Ouija' I am very aware of the general attitude and belief systems many people have towards this subject and feel it necessary to repeat things – like using a chisel against a wall as it were – the wall being peoples bias and faulty data regarding the principle.

Wi11iam, you still haven't commented on the only thing I am really interested in at the moment in this entire discusssion and that is those beautiful "Mirror(s) of the Earth" that you have created.

Instead you go back to the same ole, same ole.

We even complimented you on it, but I guess that passed you by.

We gave you a chance to expand. To explain your Philosophy and purposes, your inspiration behind your designs and the symbolic runes, etc. that you used.

If you wish you can start a new thread on that and I would definitely be interested in what you have to say and I'm sure many others here would be as well.

But I am done posting on this one. If I thought what I had to say would make a difference to you, I would continue. But I know it won't.

Ah - sorry Lionheart - I appreciate what you and others have said and there was a lot of activity on this thread which I am still contemplating, which is why I made this post:

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_integral_philosophy/our_future_in_the_physical_universe-t40012.0.html;msg327842#msg327842

Then I did some posts answering Simon plus answered one of your posts and also CFs - then thought I would give it a rest for a while and do other stuff before continuing answering the posts I still haven't answered...in other words 'I am getting there'.

What you and everyone has to say is important to me, and your post where you make mention of my vids certainly is worthy of reply - sorry if it appeared I am snubbing or ignoring you - purely unintentional.

You are right about the commenting on the messenger and not the message but this is a break through post from you William. I think we can move on with more understanding.

I am glad Simon.

Lionheart – on your post in this thread here:
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_integral_philosophy/our_future_in_the_physical_universe-t40012.0.html;msg327734#msg327734

I am certain we agree with the facts regarding change – change our self – there has been no 'moaning and groaning' from me – my earlier posts on this board to do with coming up with a workable plan etc...blah blah – as I have since explained came from a perspective which saw potential in the human species as a collective and as you and others in other forums explained to me, in different ways but saying essentially the same thing, 'it is a nice hope – you have a good heart – but the reality is, this is never going to happen.'

Now I agree, so – as I have also explained, I had to re-think what it is Consciousness WAS doing in relation to the human specie, and place my hopes, dreams, whatever it was that put my focus on that unreal expectation –place these to one side and look for the evidence – take a closer look – because yes – here and there it is obvious that individuals are making a difference, but generally the evidence was contrary to the ...expectation.

It is not that I didn't also understand this aspect (thread topic) as part of what Consciousness is doing, it is more that I thought it couldn't do this until the bulk of humanity had got its act together and worked as a whole.

Now I understand different.

Indeed... Spending each moment engrossed by the "end all" isn't for everyone. At it doesn't necessarily make anyone any more or less intelligent for it.

One of my favorite quotes as said by Socrates: The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.

To me, nothing rings more true. It is humbling and makes the world so much more amazing.

CF

What I understand about this quote is a little different – I do agree with your assessment re 'keeping humble' but I have this to add.

True wisdom is knowing that you know nothing is not that you know nothing or that what you know is not important, it is that in relation to this universe, we know next to nothing so to speak, therefore we ought not presume.

It is not suggesting we remain ignorant or do not pursue knowledge...it is saying we are wise not to think ourselves so smart, or use our knowledge unwisely, like to compete in debate for the sake of applause and one-upmanship etc...that kind of thing.

The wisest way to use knowledge is collectively.

I don't believe that consciousness knows everything about everything and that is why we are here. I thought you believed this quote. That is why I am questioning your statements about consciousness exploring what I thought you believed it already knew. Existing in a physical body with both internal and external limitations will at the very least, give a free form consciousness a new way at looking at itself.

I'm not sure if you ever said this outright but you follow-up most of my responses with consciousness already knows this and that and the other.

I am not suggesting that it is not expanding out. I am questioning whether or not your model accurately explains why it is in accordance with my own experiences. You would do well to never underestimate someone's intelligence or overestimate your own.

Your approach, as you say, is to give us one piece of the puzzle and then *sigh* when it makes no sense to us alone. This is why I asked earlier for a more complete picture of your theory.

I viewed LionHeart locking your thread because of the bickering and not the discussion. None of the moderators here filter the info but only the tone used. They have to keep the peace in the interest of the forum. They all encourage open minds.

If consciousness does not know everything then this explains why it would want to explore this physical universe, which answers your question
You misread me on this as well.
I said that Consciousness knows everything about this universe from an observer's point of view but not a 'hands on' utilising manner – words to that effect.

From outside it, rather than within it... it answers your query here:

"But I am not following you on why consciousness as a whole needs to expand and explore it's own creation. " 

Because it doesn't know its creation from the perspective of being within it.

Overall though, the point is...the truth is - Consciousness IS within its creation, right?

My *sigh* (in this instance) is in having to repeat myself, so I have to find another way of saying the same thing.  It has nothing to do with my assessing anyone's intelligence or underestimating their own experience. 

Indeed, my last post makes the point that I think WE need to get on the same page with our theories.  Did you skip over that bit?

Also, Lionheart did not lock that thread.

Part of the reason I am thinking I *annoy* is because I am able to keep to the facts and show where I see obvious-to-me- contradictions in what someone says one time and then says another time.

I don't mean it to annoy, but I do mean to keep on top of it, foremost in my own expressions (for it is easy to do) but I can't ignore it when I see it in others expressions, be these coming from sceptics, religious, or whatever minded individuals.

We need to watch out for that in our selves and each other, annoying as it may be.

A more complete picture of what I am saying can really only happen as it becomes apparent that you are getting a handle on what I am saying already and at present you are still largely engaged in making commentary on me, or my method of approach.

I am adjusting as should be obvious, but I have to say that this kind of response has been used in the past by some in order to veer away from what is being conveyed – the subject at hand – in a kind of purposeful 'kill the messenger and ignore the message...I am being prudent, I hope you understand. 

If you have any information which would contradict what I am conveying here in this thread, you would say so yes?

Same reason we all are. To try to understand conciousness consciously.

What does that mean in your understanding Szaxx?

[Why]

I keep my posts set up to warn me that another post had been made while I was typing. Let's just say that I would have felt like a horse's rear if i had made my post before reading what Lion had to say.

Sorry to be so literal Will, but the definition of conjecture is to basically guess off of little to no objective evidence.

But I am not following you on why consciousness as a whole needs to expand and explore it's own creation. I'm sure artists need to stop and admire their work and take note of how they accomplished their work but they don't need to explore it since it comes from them. It is an extension of themselves in a way and they know inside and out.

*sigh* okay quickly...

Why does need and answer.  The fact is it IS - the process is well under way.

You are suggesting that it is not.  The facts say otherwise.  The objective evidence is all around us and cannot be denied but can be demonized ... you know - the conspiracies etc...

Anyway I will attempt to pull back the curtain on this in more detail.  I will leave you with this to ponder.

Why are you here, if consciousness already knows everything about everything?

[we]

Okay - Usually I would just continue answering posts in the chronological way - certainly the topic has acted in the way a poultice does.

I think I will likely focus on one thing for now, and that is Lionheart comments about my making other threads to say the same thing.

This is quiet true, because all things are connected - but I think it is appropriate to give more detailed background to why I even chose to return to this message board, because it may help.

As I made known, I spent some time at Tom Campbell's forum which is administered by Ted Vollers.
The reason I even went there was because I was advised to do so by someone in this forum.
Which is likely the main reason I returned here.

As I think it can be appreciated, the data I have managed to exhibit herein, is untold more than I was allowed to do with Ted Vollers, and while one thread was locked here, at least it was only locked - a whole thread was deleted by Ted.

No experience is wasted though.  It is all a learning curve of data, all potentially able to increase my personal quality of consciousness, in this 'little me' perspective.

I wasn't impressed with how I was treated by Ted.  I understand that the emotion of that, albeit fairly tiny - did spill over into this arena and my approach here may be understood as being a reflection of that annoyance.

To use an metaphor - I am trying to land and the control tower keeps preventing that so I try another approach (a new thread - and a revised attitude...based on the responses and complaints) and what I can say now is that the responses unfolding are showing that these methods are working.

What jumps out here and now has to do with 'Tom Campbell's Theory of Everything' 'Getting on the same page' and the absolute realisation that we are indeed all in this together.

What I learn through Ted Vollers is that he and the other followers are not interested in anyone else except Tom Campbell's big TOE, and will defend their right to be this way categorically and un-apologetically.

There is simply no room for outside data.  This in itself leads me to suspect something is amiss because I have read enough of Toms stuff to understand that he - on paper - welcomes new info etc...then I wonder if he is even aware of what is going on in his forum, with his right hand man Ted?  Then I have to conclude that he does know, and by his silence is condoning it.

Why is this important?

Because this kind of thing is going on in so many separate controlled environments - forums - and is a reflection - and accurate reflection of what you have seen me write of as 'The Human drama.'

It is also why I had my wee rant about 'Moderators' and their excessive control techniques, mainly aimed at Lionheart, whom took this to be my conspiracy delusions of paranoia, especially as I strongly inferred that the same thing was going on and controlling what is called (close your ears Ben) "The Astral".

Which is why I now look at the irony of Lionhearts responses in this thread...regarding the (not) conspiracies of military and government manipulations.

Now these thread 'approaches' as I said, they are all connected. 

I think a great thing would be if we 'we' - if we could get on the same page.  Rather than just, say (for example) Tom Campbells theory of everything, which is really only limited to Toms subjective experiences, which fair enough - others who experience 'Astral' can also appreciate or relate a little or a lot to, but 'we' need to learn to remain totally open - even open ended - and work together to nut out as precisely as our collective 'little selves' can - to altogether piece together our data to give us a far better overall picture of what is going on.

We could develop OUR theory of everything... or as much of 'everything' as we can.

Certainly that is what I am looking for in 'others'.

Just in closing...I do want to (and will do if permitted) answer the previous posts which have poured into this thread...I agree totally with Szaxx that all the posts are indeed relevant to the thread topic... I just want to say that the reason I came to this forum was because the data I was researching led me here anyway, and it was somewhere else I read data by someone calling there self 'Traveler' (i think) who linked The Frank Kepple Resource, which I read and some serious pieces of my own puzzle fitted nicely...bless Douglas Eckhart (Gandalf) and all others who put that data together, and bless Frank for his own studious work.

Yeah sure, Bless Monroe, Bruce, Campbell, et al but please, these are not 'the lords of the astral' to be placed upon pedestals, as I am sure most here would agree.  Their data is useful ALL TOGETHER - but also so is ours, and we can make the effort.

Anyhow..I am off for a nanny nap...

You do understand that we are trying to discuss a theory, right? Even though I'm on board with a lot of what we are discussing, this is all conjecture.

No it is not a theory Simon.  It is actually happening...the conjecture is that Consciousness (that aspect working in relation to our planet) is in a position where it can fully protect its agenda from the human drama...but that is most likely pretty accurate.

Short of some major catastrophic natural event happening which could seriously maim or destroy the machinery, this will eventuate.

Neither is it conjecture in relation to the rest of the Galaxy - and Galaxies.  Consciousness is working in all of these, certainly in every one it has access to.

Is it conjecture to assume that since we have no evidence of this that we alone are the only planet in the universe with consciousness?

Be that as it may, Consciousness exists here, and it moving to go out there...and that is not conjecture.

Okay Ben so what I am hearing from you is that you are consciousness but the constrained version of you [CVOY] (called Ben) gives you (Consciousness) a sense of identity in this reality.

The identity gives you the opportunity to interact with the environment and other constrained versions of consciousness which also have a sense of identity for the same reason.

(Unit of Self as you have also called it) UOS

CVOY = UOS

In the case of your UOS you are able to peruse the 'astral' (The hard drive platform) and there are other 'games' – programmes UOS can access.

Q:  the 'astral' is the hardware?

Q:  The programmes are the software?

Q:  What is the UOS?

Q: Can you explain why the hardware is non physical?

All things are contained within the 'network' which – if I understand you correctly, contains everything and even if there were outside realities, these would be fractals of the network?

Understanding fractals as codes which are looped and then run, they self perpetuate infinitely.  The only way they can stop is if that which powers them is disconnected.  They are programmes and while they look real, they are not but they do give us an understanding of how looped coding works, and just as importantly they resemble things in the nature of the physical universe giving rise to the theory that the physical universe is some kind of programmed fractal.

Q:  Would you agree?

You said:

Out side the network lies another reality that isn't conceivable by the self aware avatar that is perusing the network. It may be pertinent to its existence... but if what we have learned is to be understood.. it will be a fractal of the local network.

Would you elaborate on this? 

Q: What is 'the local network?
Q: What do you mean by 'what we have learned'?

Q:  If there is no such thing as 'a place' (in terms of what you are saying regarding...say...the non physical from the physical) is anything 'a place'?

For example, could you consider Consciousness to be 'a place'?

You asked:

Q: I don't understand you use of the term 'madness'. What is this madness you speak of?

A:  The term has come up in this and other threads.  I have to assume that you are not reading all the posts otherwise you would not be asking this question.  You would understand why the term is being used.

The tree as a metaphor is quiet acceptable and relates well to fractals. 

The braches you speak of which are somewhat detached –
Q:  Are you saying they are detached because the Little Self Aware Unit is unable to access these?

You ask: 

Q: How would a self aware avatar within a computer game understand a peanut and what relevance is it to the avatar?

A:  From my experience, it would set up a link with its 'user' and the 'peanut' would not be of interest to the avatar...the user would be of interest.

The difference being that a game programmer only has to make code to create characters and that these characters are not self aware – they are animated by the user – they do not have lives of their own...they are not alive.

That is a huge difference.

To be specific; An 'Avatar' is not the form – the form is part of the environment and the environment is overall, also a Form.

The characters in a game are not Avatars.  For these to become Avatars the user would have to imbue an aspect of their consciousness into the character in order to be both the player and the played.


The Avatar is the consciousness within the forms.

In the case of the physical universe, the environments, including the forms are animated.  They are in constant movement and evolving and even when they are dying' they are transforming.  It might be supposed then that the whole universe is 'alive' or imbued with an Avatar (Consciousness).

If the physical Universe is a fractal, then it is one in which consciousness is involved within.

It is obvious that there are different forms (within and including the whole universe) which have certain advantages in how they can be used (by consciousness) and that the illusion created for the Avatar within the human form is one which gives an impression of a having beginning, gives an impression of individuality and a few other things which effectively deny the Avatar easy access to information which might assist it in redefining its identity to better reflect the truth.

Another thing which has to be looked into is that the Avatar is not so much directly influence by the 'user' as it is by other Avatars.

On of those influences is its learned sense of identity. 

So there is an end game here. Why didn't you just say that "in the beginning"? Yes that pun was intended.

Do you feel that we weren't smart enough or up to your level of intellect yet, you thought you needed to "prime" us first?

Is your "groundwork" complete yet?

I can't wait to see where this leads!  

Hey Lionheart

I was able to answer your concerns directly without the impulse to poke at your person...perhaps that is a sign of maturity, but I really didn't have the impulse.

Your concerns regarding military were relevant.

However, having answered them, all you can do in reply is ignore the answers and press on with what amounts to disrupting the flow of the thread – attack the messenger and ignore the message.

Whatever dude (or duddess)

*shrugs*

Your original reply started off 'nope' but didn't really address fully why.  You didn't explain military or mind control as to why Consciousness wont be or isn't in your opinion - interested in exploring this universe and utilizing the materials to transform those materials as I have suggested.  Perhaps to explain may put you in the light of someone who believes in conspiracy and is paranoid about technology? Yes that irony was intended.

The end game isn't really the focus of the thread - it can be discussed, once discussion actually gets under way, if indeed it will.

http://vimeo.com/61236149#

A nice wee vid on the mind.

The problem is that I'm not sure we are on a journey. But I'll hang in there until you finally convince me otherwise.

Fortunately it is not my job to convince anyone.  I am simply pointing out the facts as they surface.

Thats the one.
It irritated me most the way through. The acting of the characters is quite realistic.
How does one teach finer values to the presented mindset of others?
A task of magnitude.

No I haven't seen this film.  But I understand what you are referring to.  No easy task but then I guess ultimately from our own little world perspective we are only responsible for our own education - that is the bottom line - but as part of the bigger reality we do care enough to persist with helping where we can, as insignificant as that help might be...it is our nature...more importantly we don't actually have to feel irritated by those mindsets...we can learn to let that go...

Uh...That's what Chopsticks said.

Does 1+1=2 only after you say it does? It seems as if we all agree on a whole lot but it comes down to semantics with you a lot of the times.

Will, you have some fascinating ideas but it's hard to see your point sometimes because you constrain the topic. I understand that you are talking apples and not oranges but to understand the oranges we need to know the seed. Why won't you just give us a generalized idea of why you think consciousness uses physical forms. You already said it's not to relate or understand cause and effect, so what's left? Just a curiosity to contemplate a death perhaps?

I promise that you can get right back on topic after you do so don't fear it, just go with it. 

Yes - that is what chopsticks said - I was agreeing...but as with all things, the destination need also be questioned...is it a good thing?  What exactly is it?  Even as vast the journey, the physical universe, what can be done, learned, applied, built upon?  Why does Consciousness want to explore in such a hands on way, even being human?  Why does it want to develop ways of moving into the Galaxy, self replicate its new form, add to that form and transform the Galaxy...and do this through using the bridge of all bio logical forms in all Galaxies?

'The Journey not the destination' is too flamboyant..too...impulsive, reckless, aimless even.  This Universe affords something of a means in which to project the most likely destination before even embarking...but let us face it, we (Consciousness) has already embarked...and while 'learning from pain and suffering' is inclusive, it is not - by any means - the only reason.



Yes there is more of a point -  my rather impatient friends - to this unfolding thread.  But first the groundwork has to be prepared yes?  The contradiction is that you want the 'destination' explained by skipping the 'journey' to 'get to the point' and then show your disapproval/frustration by your impetuous responses. 

A better way of approach perhaps - that both the journey and the destination are equally relevant. 

[So Consciousness works with what it has to work with.]

My name is Simon and I'm glad you recognized it for the joke it was.You are right about me learning just what I want to learn but I still pick up useful knowledge along the way that I never intended to. That's just life I suppose.

I am an optimist but only for my own little world and not the world as a whole. I agree with Silva when he says a society's technology is representative of their culture but this is not a good thing. As Lion already pointed out, any advancement in tech is always applied militarily first.

This is not gonna change any time soon or in the distant future I'm sorry to say.

Yes – Simon...

So Consciousness works with what it has to work with. (bold for emphasis)
It occurs to me that the fragmentation process extends much further than I have thought about in a consistent manner up until now.

It has been fermenting in the 'back of my mind' (interesting saying) I have been aware of it, and the implications – but the focus has been more with the general aspect of consciousness to which I (as William in bio-form) am part of.

Your 'little world' is your gift of individuation, and extends into the 'Astral' in the outward expression of subjective creativity and adventure, learning etc.

Yet you awaken consistently within this domain – planet earth and the physical universe.

This is where your little world is most affected, and to some degree this reality affects your subjective reality of Astral experience – perhaps even more so than the other way around.

Your little world is subject to the greater reality of 'our little world' the physical goings on here upon this planet.

This is where subjectivity meets objectivity – this is where you meet resistance and have to deal with things not going the way you want them to...same as me, same as most of us.

This is why the great attraction to Astral, because there is a place where you are the boss because it is all your own creation.  I am of course open to correction and certainly can be forgiven for thinking this as I am only going on what is being said and may be totally misinformed or simply misunderstanding what is being shared about Astral.

Zooming in now to what Lionheart said about the military in regards to technology – one would have to be stupid or have some sinister agenda not to acknowledge the military aspect of controlling new technology for its agenda, but please make no mistake – the military is a creation of said culture.

The gadgets we now have which didn't even exist 10 years ago...

The internet was first used for military purposes and has since been given over for public use.
I have written songs bemoaning the existence of military – war, the profiteering of weapons manufacturing, and while these songs are relative to 'my little world' and how I would like thing to be...which is not how they are - and are a record of my own personal journey and attitude, as I said in a previous post, some things I have learned I have found it necessary to unlearn.

Back to the internet...we can map not only what Consciousness is up to but also what individual human egos (unaware of that greater Consciousness) are up to.
Porn is probably in the number one position for popularity, and likely games are way up there as well...this is just a reflection of millions of 'my little worlds' doing their individual thing, and it is quiet understandable for that.

Criminals are also taking advantage of what the internet offers.

In every sense, the internet has allowed me to see that 'my little world' is not the only 'little world' out there.

But also it has shown me that I share a lot of things with others – that my experiences are not as unique as they were before the internet made this quite clear.

So the military is a creation of culture – and extends back to the age of flint spears and other tools of protection...hey we don't really need to detail the history of technology and military.

What we may need to do though is to focus on when technology began to show itself as coming to the fore – and this happened at the time of Hitler and the Nazis.

For example – never before had there been such a thing as amplification.  To be a mere mad genius warlord is one thing but to project your manic voice to a multitude in such a way that every one of the thousands of soldiers from the front to the very back ranks could hear you clearly!  How profound and magical and god-like!

Who provided these tools?  The Scientists did.

So when the Nazis were overthrown the scientists were kept.  Some by the Russians and some by the Americans because both these nations were instrumental in the overthrow, and had to share the spoils and the Scientists were the cream.

Moving on, we see the push to perfect rocket propulsion, we see a flag poked into the surface of the moon, we see craft being sent into our particular neighbourhood of the Galaxy, and more recently we land a robot on the surface of Mars.

Consciousness is working with what it has to work with.

We also see other uses for technology – maybe they have no particular significance to the military, and pose no particular threat to the military – but whatever, they are being created and used by human beings for purposes which are all working to increase lifespan, food production, fight diseases, etc etc...and there is an increasing push from many directions for human beings to start thinking about ourselves and each other as One, rather than as from the older paradigm of 'countries, cultures, politics etc....

Of course, this is still a pretty quiet voice in the wilderness which isn't really getting through the fog of indoctrination...but it is there nonetheless.

Meantime, Consciousness continues because its agenda is to move from this rock and out into interstellar and while the military may have first grabs to whatever science develops, it is the science itself which comes from the impulse Consciousness itself provides.

For its purpose.

It can be argued that while humanity resists the more co-operative/collective philosophies in favour of profit and consumerism and competition, that it will never be leaving this rock at all...but the truth is, it simply won't be...at least not in its present form.  It can't.

It would be wonderful to see the biological critter work together for the good of all, but I can say with some great certainty that this will NOT prevent Consciousness from using what it can use in order to create for itself a form which it can leave this world behind.

One might rephrase that to say...Consciousness too, is its 'own little world' but it has the advantage of knowing exactly what it wants, how to get it, and how to work with what it has and what supports it and work around that which has no interest, compulsion or desire to support a far greater thing than their own little worlds, dramas, ambitions, politics beliefs etc.

In regard to the military in relation to interstellar exploration etc, it will be unlikely needed in that larger part of this reality.  Well the fighting killing part won't be needed – but the planning, and ability to protect and build upon work as a 'well oiled machine' will be an advantage.

I am really only scratching the surface here.  But I think the underlying thing is that this is going to happen with or without the majority support of humanity.

It would be nice to think when it finally eventuates that human beings will be living in peace and collective prosperity on a planet which has been shaped into a proverbial paradise – that would be an ideal platform in which to launch from – but as nice as that would be, individual free will etc may mean that the launch happens on the ashes of civilization hell bent focused on their individual little worlds purposefully ignorant of the bigger picture...a sad thing yes, but all is not lost.

And that is the real point.  All is not lost. The military will play a big part in ensuring this – as much as it is about protecting citizens and countries etc, the military will above all protect the agenda of Consciousness, especially if the citizens prove to continue to choose death and mayhem for the sake of their little kingdoms, beliefs and manipulations.

I personally don't see it going that way...but understand for now, that I am among the few.