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Sorry Nay, but it was so Nayish. I can't believe that, EOL007, you make my post with the hairy egg disappear! I forget the URL so I have to upload the picture.


I've got an interesting idea couple of months before. We are told, we are having three energy storage centers and they corresponds with body cavities of the scull, the thorax and the pelvis. Energy saving sexual practices are supposed to transmuting energy between the pelvis and the scull by raising it through the central channel and chakras.

My hypothesis is that the most important biological aspects of the storage centers are same with the three main neurotransmitter pools: acetylkoline, noredraniline & serotonin. If this is true, science is your gimp now, Hannah.

I wouldnt be surprised if someone told me that one masturbation (I mean orgasm not ejaculation) is equivalent with one astral projection or a similar awkward ratio. In fact, masturbation deplete the brain's acethylcoline that required for building up the sufficient REM-force for SOREM. Also, serotonin pool would decrease by ejaculating (not orgasm) so the day-night alteration of awareness (daily alertness and ability for getting deep sleep) become irregular. As a result of serotonin depletion, death of every spiritual practice, depression would fall upon the practicioner.

Ability to regain awareness in sleep paralysis is associated with the middle storage center and not affected directly, I think. It is known that noradrenaline containing neurons in the locus coeruleus fire most frequently during waking, less during deep sleep, and are inactive during and before REM-sleep, but not much more. Irrational fears, sensed presence, rapid heartbeats are part of the effect that noradrenalin have on the brain (limbic system and symphatetic activation).

I might would further explore this possibilities by masturbating a lot and feeding back the results into the forum, hehe.

Now I know we are weird in the same way and you know, that's a good feeling. Your post was very inspiring, welcome again

quote:(Yes I read all Monroe books and read a lot of the threads onhere about the different stages) Yet why would both happen so quickly?

Do you mean that F21/22 happen too soon when you attempt to induce an OBE or do you wonder why those projections wasn't preeded by many years of Type2 experience?

Just for mere curiosity, I have a question: why had you marked Type1 experiences with #1 when your earlier and more real experiences comes from T2?

quote:And why do you think am I not able to induce Type2 myself

To say the truth, I didn't think about whether you can or cannot induce Type2 OBEs at will. All I know that it is very hard for me. It seems you yearn for this ability and I perfectly understand your reasons. For me, it has something to do with control.

quote:(happens only when waking up and falling asleep multiple times in a row during a short time span) - yet was able to induce Type2 at will (even though I used to think that its only possible from within a Lucid Dream).

How do you induce it at will? I'm especially interested in your LD experiences with it.

quote:For some reason the Type2 experiences do have a much "realer" feel to me then Type1 - and are much stronger in their effect on me then Type1.

Perhaps T2 consciousness has more thing to do with our feer based animal self than T1 consciousness? Direct download and more sharper memories and things like that?

Seems like T1 consciousness is totally free from the fear of the dying organism. It's a clear and rational awareness spiced with some irrational insticts that work unnoticed in the background. They recalled after awakening only as weird visuals, like screens from nowhere. However, T1 consciousness could be more clear than those we accustomed to in our waking hours. At the same time, it has a "dreamy flick" that may do something with the impression about the eternal now.

quote:.. why go through all the trouble though:) That would explain why I never see my body in Type1 yet always do in Type2

I'm aware a border at the root of T1 where weird things could happen. You can come back to your dream bedrom after the visuals are stabilized, increase your awareness and observing around without thoughts. Now you are in a state where T1 and T2 environments are meet. By doing some visual excercise you could see a body sleeping in your bed. Now I know this body is not the physical. It's even could move. Many times I swa myself leving this body, so I think it's a visual interpretation of my etheric double.

It's worth to note, that directly projecting into T1 is a lot more easyer than inducing T2. You mentioned that you know about the possibiliy to induce T2 from "lucid dreams." I'm very interested in your experiences, please let continue in PM.

I think T1 (F21/F22) is simiar to LDs in the sense that they represent our most active brain states. I believe after reaching this state we we simply couldn't be more conscious by our brain. The brain capabilities for supporting cognition is reached its limit. We have to dissociate from the brain in order to project away from the here and now. This would results in the automatic and sychronous shut down of the cortex. This could be accomplished by two ways:

1. By means of a centipetal projection, zooming through a vortex that appear in the F21-superspace. I think this is the way of real astral projections, phasing from advanced lucid dreams. The shut down process should be done in a very brief time period or the brain remain in REM-sleep to decode informations that the projected double broadcast.

2. An another possibility is mimicing sleep and projecting from lucid dreams. Regarding my experiences with it T2 comes into view when I try to sleep in T1 with the intent to have a classic OBE. There is an another possibility by which we may could literally knock ourselfes out from this word. This is by inducing deep sleep within a lucid dream. Haven't tired yet but there is a guy from an another forum who claim he could induce NDEs by practicing trance induction in lucid dreams. He said, according to some yogis, there are 7 stages of sleep, and activity level of the brain in the deepest stege of NREM is only represent the 4th. He said also he has checked his EEG during the experience and it was flat. Very interesting. I need to make some experimentation with it and to bring home an EEG.

But is has been proved by my experiences that we could do some very interesting things in lucid dreams by practicing meditation, trance and phasing techniques. The only requirement is a very high awareness that comparable those we have in waking. The reason could be that our body is already throwed out from the equation and our highly activated brain let us controll a more greater parts of our being.

quote:

quote: upstream (me) said: Surprisingly I couldn't fly in this regio (I use imagined threads to drag myself and orders) but have observed a heavy traffic beneath the dream pictures.

TDD: Interesting. I had that problem only a few times.. then I just stretched.. ie. I would just stretch my hands out to the place I wanted to go (would see my hands stretching for miles) - and then would just let go with my feet.. and snap to the new location. Somehow thats how I interprted Monroes IDENT thingy... now prefer ti over flying (when I remember it:))

Nice trick, I want it for myself! Now I could understand why I'm unable to fly and why I should stretch. Thank you for this idea.

I've read only the first RAM book. What is this "IDENT thingy"?

You have said about guides:

quote:Just imagining them looking at us and going "dooh! open your "eyes"

Yeah it's very funny. I think they can see us in our transparent dream houses boxing and stretching our non existent limits, like walls, gravity. Not to mention the struggles with our upflaming sexuality that seems still based on our animal self.

quote:Entity attaching never happened

I'm sure it did happened. Something to try: got into T1 and go back to its T2 border, the place where you supposed to sleep. Now try to move through a narrow window. As you may have already found out, in the regio of stretching/zooming every windows is narrow. Anyways try to move through a windows with as quickly as you can and at the same time concentre on your back. If there is something installed into your energy field you would get aware of it at that position.

Three things could be happen: 1. nothing exceptional; 2. you would wake up because you torn the integrity of sensory experiences and you remain without visuals; 3. you would feel something on your back + an interesting thing I restrain in order to not influence your belief systems.

quote:many times sensation would get to strong and I would snap back into my body.

Do you mean loosing control about zooming or speed wind like flying, having splitted off from the narrow line of security we call horizon, falling rapidly into one direction without any intermission and at the same time spinning like a top that just escaped from hell? Yeah that's F21.

quote:Usually I feel like being stretched into all directions at once .. (after I request to go OBE from my LD) - and only after the stretching sensatin do I feel rolling motion.. sometimes the rolling just keeps on going without getting me out of my body - then I just sit up and get out of bed and get out that way.

Now thats very interesting. You feel some expansion before able to separate? I have never experienced anything like that yet it is totally consistent with the basic dynamics I suppose to work in the background. Or did you say that expansion is felt from LD (T1?) That makes sense.

quote:Never had any difficulties in flying there. Would just jump out the window with hands stretched in front of me and fly.

Flying at where? In regular lucid dreams I have no difficulties with flying albeit they have bacame rare. I have greatly enjoyed flying as I have been gone through many of its stages through the years. First I was practiced flying off and hovering, then was that swimming and flying like birds, the superman trick, rockets in my legs, directing my awareness, moving by "flight-threads", zooming, "sporas" and now...now if I would throw myself out a window I would most likely remain suspended in the air as a cloud.

Perhaps I should try that stretching. Could I imagine my hand in contact with something I didn't see at that moment? Or should I look on it? Perhaps your stretching is just my zooming? Hm... no. If I'd call it stretching than it couldn't be work like zooming, hehe.

quote:I did not even loose track of my thoughts or images I focused on Like I usually do when I go to bed and am tired.

I'm sceptical about it. When I have studied some similar situations I've found that I was likely already asleep and just thought that I'm awake. We may call it false awakaning or more precisely false insomnia, or hallucinating the inability of falling sleep - a more common condition that most people would assume.

quote:Haha yes.. my "astral" body was wearing glasses.. I pulled them off and was able to see great after that.. still makes me laugh.

I know this trick myself. I don't need to wear eye glasses but I used to enhance my sight by pulling off a couple of dark lensed one in a row. At first it was worked very well but later I found that the effect is temporal. I've also realised that while this trick is indeed not a miraculous one albeit work I need to use it as it is, a visual-symbolic equivalent of voicing my intent. Intent is what lead my brain into REM-sleep fom conscious NREM stages but it is accomplished through by a series of progressively more active states. However, at that time I was impatient and I did't know that this transition require a couple of minutes.

I can't believe that, Nay, you make my post with the hairy egg disappear! I forget the URL so I have to upload the picture.

Jaclyn, is your buddy something to do with RB's new book, 'masturbating astral projection?'

I think, hyperspace is the uninterpreted, energetic underlay of F21-experiences, the bridge between RTZ & astral. For me, this is the zone where I would find symbols of highly organised structures resembling to microchips, cities, meduses and cell-compounds and various vortexes, tunnels as well embedded in an enormous multi-layered 3D-space. Zooming on the symbols I could fall into other environments that either could have astral or RTZ properities and may not belong to humans.

In reality, RTZ-environments and physical space are not a flat 3D-space (they are even not exist independently from the observer) but made of various chambers: probability realities & different versions of the "same place" that exist in different times and from different views of different consciousnesses.

I think, the local astral is situated around those RTZ-chambers and generated by beliefs of inhabitants who live their lifes accustomed to that specific set of local physical laws along their lifespan. These laws form the bases of their astral environment by repetation and habit. As a result, the learned rules are projected automatically into the "local astral" which is situated "around" the "local RTZ" of every consciousness.

Of course, the local RTZ doesn't mean the same for entirely different forms of consciousnesses. Organisms that build from losely associated water or gas molecules or ions have to been used to an entirely different environment. Those organisms could be part of our buildings or the air we breath but our different "brains" interpret the "same" physical environment in different terms. As a consequence, we are living in an entirely different environment, we can't perceive each other, and our astrals remain separated.

Congratulation to your own forum, cube!

Nemo wrote:

quote:

quote:quote:
Originally posted by upstream:
There is no distinct difference. In fact, even at now "we are in our heads" and "out of our body" meaning that we don't perceive the objective reality as it is. According to Rudolfo Llinas (...) of that could separate shared dreamings from real astral projections.

So I take it that you never tested the objective reality of your projections then?
Now let's hear from people with a modicum of common sense?

Captain, you have quoted me in a way even I can't understand my point. As far as I know Llinas is not involved in the astral business, he is a biophysics. I've just referred one of his statements he made on wakefulness. According to him "wakefulness is nothing other than a dream-like state modulated by the constraints of sensory inputs."

I said "we are in our heads" because our percepts are experienced through the works of our brain. At the same time, "we are out of or bodies" because even works and position of our brain (as part of our "phyisical body") is perceived by the brain, leading to the consclusion that we haven't have a "physical body" at all. What we call physical body is a mental representaion of something made by something else.

I think human existence is manifestation of our true self which is able to express only one part of itself through human consciousness that we could partly observe as the brain. It has been proven that work of our brain is highly correlate to specific states of consciousness. Of course, this fact doesn't mean that consciousness is by-product of the brain, however, since their changes are coinciding with each other some connection have to be exist.

Consciousnesses we having in lucid dreams (and very likely in shared dreams too) are coinciding with (phasic) REM. In theory, it is possible to decode signals from the visual cortex and see dreams projected onto a monitor ony fly (and being bonking rich by recording and selling them). On the opposite, astral projectiors cannot be tracked by monitoring eye movements or brain states because astral states seem to coincide with deep sleep states where brain would serve as a very hostile place for cognition.

Of course, in a given extent brain states are remain in correspondance but in a loosened manner (see the extremly similar wave patterns of F23-27) This suggests that cognition would be placed outside of the brain into more "subtle" systems of conssciousness. So, when I said that REM "is the only condition I'm currently aware of that could separate shared dreamings from real astral projections," I meant that cognitive activity in "real astral projections" couldn't be derived (only) from the brain.

I call an experience "real" RTZ-OBEs in which a second physical presence that capable of perceiving at least "holos" of the  physical word is established outside of the phyisical body's boundaries. I think this presence should be an energy field that dense enough to interact with other fields of physical objects. However, this field seems to not being dense enough to absorb thus perceive light.

From this reason, random numbers projected on a monitor or printed out on a paper cannot be "seen" in RTZ-OBEs. But this doesn't mean that it couldn't be perceived. The number remain unreadable only as long as haven't been recognized by some consciousness we have in contact with at least at an unconscious level. Preferably, the observer consciousness belong to an incarnated human being that still part of the shared dream we call waking life, however it could be the projector's moring self as well. Thus perception of the number is really result of "telepathy" and "precognition." If perception of the number never happen it wouldn't get more existence than a probability we could calculate.

Without the unconscious matching mechanisms that responsible for holding together the shared dreams of our waking society we would live somewhere between Focus levels #23-26. So, for me, there is no such thing that objetive reality - I live inside my mind because I'm dead already. The RTZ-body, the space it seems to occupy and the physical instruments we use to measure it are products of something that is nor inside nor outside of our non-existent "physical body" yet being connected at levels "below" our waking consciousness.

quote:So I take it that you never tested the objective reality of your projections then?

I never said that.

Maybe you should talk all this over with your father.

quote:Well, the question is precisely if they are in the same (objective)place or just in their heads having peculiar hallucinations (ESP or projection alike).

There is no distinct difference. In fact, even at now "we are in our heads" and "out of our body" meaning that we don't perceive the objective reality as it is. According to Rudolfo Llinas and others we are living in a mental representations of our environment that made by "memory reflux" of our brain.

Seth has said many times that underlying consensus about our reality is distributed and syncronised "unconsciously" and "telepatically." I might add that the only difference between shared dreaming and waking states is the quantity of "real" ("external") sensory input. Externally directed awareness is even more undeveloped in our dreams than in waking states, therefore unconscious mechanisms supposed to play a greater role to fill sensory gaps.

In this sense, objective reality (real time zone) projections can be regarded as a more strictly shared types of dreaming with a more characteristic outward awareness, lesser interpretations and unconscious assumptations about the environment.

Like shared dreamings RTZ-projections do require a common entrance point to tune into. For this purpose  a mutually constructed, "virtual" environment is used in shared dreamings (see 'Beneath an Astral Moon' by unknown author or Astral Pulse Island for example). At first dreamers should synchronise some pictures of their dreams to let unconscious processes do the rest. On the opposite, in RTZ-projections one have to fit internally generated pictures with energy fields of physical objects. But again, according to Seth position of physical objects is maintained unconsciously by members of our waking society. So an RTZ-OBE is represent a greater shared dreaming with more participants.

Now let us see a classical OBE. If we succeed to hold body awareness all along, as a result of the gradual sensory shutdown at one point we would inevitably feel some separation from a sumberling, paralysed body, therefore the assumptation that separation takes place in the bedroom remain unquestioned. As I see it, this unquestioned belief would serve for the basis of the RTZ-entrance point.

A most straightforward method to prove OBEs would be an attempt to directly detect the projected energy field. Existence of  those field is evident because perception require physical interaction, interaction on which every measurements are based. I have had many experiences about electromagnetic interferences from hight tension power lines and wires in the wall to ionizers, electrostatic fields around my ventillators cage and monitors, so I know that EM-detection is possible.

I have no doubt in my mind that the double is composed from at least two part. One part is a body-bounded, honey-like substance that will be saved back through a cable like organ. The remaining part is not bounded to the body but supposed to emerge directly from the vacuum anywhere one able to believe in. Therefore a Faraday-cage could not impede an EM-meter that placed inside tha cage to detect the field.

According to Tart's EEG-measurements on Monroe and others neurophysical substrate of RTZ-OBEs are not REM-sleep. Just think about the fact that moving your eyes could ruin a projection attempt. Seems the projector body/consciousness have to remain in mental and physical stillness in order to not interfere the experiences of the projected double. Perhaps moving eyes could confirm types of shared dreamings that keep a real time connection with the brain. This connection is the only condition I'm currently aware of that could separate shared dreamings from real astral projections.

Welcome in the forum! You did a great post. At least it is great for me because you are the very first person who has so accurately described my experiences. I hope soon we will learn new things from each other.

I think Type1 projections tend to start at the border of F21 & F22 (if you're familiar with terms of The Monroe Institue), while Type2 are real time zone projections started with more or lesser etheric prestates. By RTZ projections I mean an experience in which we have the chance for perceiving elements of the reality we share in waking life.

As for the question of what experiences are OBEs, I think it is just a matter of definition. Driven by some of them not only regular dreaming but even watching television should be OBE. Questions like this are not important as long as both of us know what we are talking about.

quote:Why the severe auditory, visual and physical sensations in Type2, yet total absence thereof in Type1?

In Type1 REM-system is triggered first by detaching a somatosensoric phantom in sleep paralysis, and then, by looking for visuals through the blackness. The outcome is a Wake Induced Lucid Dream that takes place in the "lower astral." Your sight is late because switching REM on takes some time to accomplish. On the other hand, REM-sleep is barely involved in the physiology of Type2 projections that are supposed to coincide with a deeper but mixed type of sleep. In this state role of the brain is more limited. Sight could be late in Type2 projections as well but this is, I suppose is the result of temporally displaced etheric substances that prevent the RTZ-body to move away and perceive by its own. I've found that in most cases 1-20 sec is required for saving back the plasma via the "silver cord" or set free the RTZ-body by a forced pull. The pull is often felt on the legs (which are missing) or in the solar pelxus regio as some pain.

quote:3) Why the drastic differences in
a) the environment outside my house (outside doors and windows) as well as more pronounced differences within the house (in Type1 there are often additional rooms that are not there in the waking world nor in type2)
b) Various weird looking .. very real appearing "entities" in my bedroom with Type2

3a) Your Type1 house is a mental representation based on your memories. By getting outside your subconscious got a more greater freedom to build your sensorium. The word you would see around your house is not real in the sense we accustomed to yet you are able to dock into other dreamers' dream.
Surprisingly I couldn't fly in this regio (I use imagined threads to drag myself and orders) but have observed a heavy traffic beneath the dream pictures.

quote:Oftentimes when I want to fly somewere iI feel someone carrying me there by holding me under my shoulders.

You didn't see the entity carring you because the condensation degree of your energy bodies was not properly aligned with each other. You and that beings was very close "dimensionally" but not occupy the same perceived spece. Those beings are supposed to perceive an another environment most likely the energetic underlying of our state. From their eyes we are blind.

More "dimensional distance" would diminish the sense of being touched by someone else and the guidance would reduce into a wind like force. You could observe this wind effect on yourself as well when you are abruptly taken inside a room or move outside too quickly through a window. By moving inside you would feel your perception become more keen and you'd got a more keen sense of body, somethin that missing from F21/F22 flights. As for moving outside, you could encounter a resistence and may get aware something on your back, most likely an entity you happened to attach with unawares.

3b) Some of your visitors in Type2 projections are most likely identical with those you didn't able to see in the Type1 environment. Now you could see them because you have a common reference point for setting your energy fields: your sleeping body or more exactly the etheric substance that surrounds it. You was consciously aware the onset of sleep paralysis so your focus is as close to the body as possible. Since some of those visitors seem to have some parasitic in their nature (and they are more common than we dare to believe) our defence would try to prevent waking up in those states and get awareness of those beings.

My questions:

You wrote about Type1 as

quote:I realize that iam lucid. And focus on seperating from my body. Feel a spinning and strong stretching sensation and find myself rolling out of my body onto the floor next to my bed.

What kind of streching is that? Is it an upward or is it beyond expression?

quote:Then walk around in my house which is similar to my house on the inside - yet has totaly different views on the outside. Usually fly out the window and start exploring the environment. Oftentimes when I want to fly somewere iI feel someone carrying me there by holding me under my shoulders.

Seems you could fly. How do you do that? Haven't you had difficulties with it?

quote:On one very itnteresting occasiosion I was able to get that rolling out of body sensation just by focusing on the blackness in front of my eyes as I was going to bed in the evening and suddenly the sensation of turning within my body appeared on its own and I slowly rotated out of my body.

It's indeed very interesting. Was you sleep deprived or did you some trick?

quote:In this state I ususally see only very foggy images or nothing at all until I just tell myself that I can see, or pull off my physical glasses

Did you say that you pulled off a dream glasses to improve your sight in dreaming?

Please forgive me Atalanta, I'm just so frustrated....come on, hit me, hit me

Now seriously, I suppose you're a female. I just made this trap for those who have some problem with this. It worked obviously.

Now more seriously: of course they are no real differences between sexes except the more flexible buildup of woman's brain. I'm sure woman's brain would be very good for science if wouldn't be set already for dealing with other issues like finding the one and only romantic love of life, tittle-tattle, etc. (come on, hit me...hit me)

The real problem is our social conditioning. Indulging in firm identification with sex role stereotypes is foolish path.

Have you had a false awakening in a flipped state? If your neighbor didn't recognized you why was he victimised?

As for the guy at that table in my dream, I'm sure he was not my guide. Considering my later experiences about shared dreaming, he was an another dreamer.

I have no contact with regular guides. Years ago I meet an eagle on my way to home. I was frightened when I saw him circling around me. He sat down on my arm and we had a fantastic jorney together. It was night in the dream we started but the rest of the dream was very bright and stable. At first we flew above a fantastic landscape. Sometimes I felt we fly very high, sometimes it seemed we are just  above a miniature land. I saw a skeleton of a giant animal coated by little villages and some strange creatures walking away. We flew very long and I couldnt follow where we went.  

Now I know this is trick we require sometimes to free our attention from a heavily interpreted astral environment. Currently I use my palm to concentrate on, not the landscape so my flyings are very brief. Progress toward my target means some internal changes that I track by asking the disemodied voices.

So we got into a city and the eagle turned into a man without my notice. The next thing I could remember that we were sat in a harbour watching the ships come and go. I asked him to make me lucid in my regular dreams. I couldn't remember our conversation except that we made some deal and my amazement how real the city was. I've also observed tiny pores on his face.

When we finsihed our meet I was excited and sad from what I was told. I tired to fly home but the city was surrounded by a grid like structure I couldnt get through. At that point two other people appeared and explained why. First they seemed to be some of my old class-mates then turned into unknown but still familiar people. Perhaps they are my guides, I don't know. All I can do now is pulling some guidence into my dreams when I needed to. If guides are really exist they respect my wish to be alone.

quote:Do you suspect these bubbles being orbs?

2-3 years ago I've made some efforts to compare my notes about my RTZ-movements with light balls. I concluded that in the RTZ I behave similar to those balls. I think some orbs are condensed energy bodies of spirits or some other intelligent forces. Others are just natural phenomena that having the same physical envelope (ionised gases) without underlaying consciousness.

Phyisical laws seem to play a great role determining movemements in that form, but this not exclude the possibility that some of those balls have consciousness. According to my theory, more remote an energy field that pass by the RTZ more decondensated its corresponding phyical field projection from the point of view of an RTZ observer. Power lines and power stations literally curve the space-time. This is the result of the Heaviside components of the electrical flow that most textbooks miss to mention. This component is perpenicular to the well known Poynting flow that moves inside and around the wire. The Heaviside flow assembled from the entire vacumm and 3D-space representing an enormous amount of energy that miss our circuits and couldn't used by our electrical systems.

I saw some pictures about light blobs turning into space-ship type UFOs around high tension power lines. I heard that crews of many shooted UFOs sit in a circle and seem to control the flight without any identificable technical equipment. I think the crew are dimensional travellers, just like we humans would be in the near future. I see the future of The Monroe Institue like this: 5-12 people are laying in a circle around a computer that synchronise they focus states. Because they strictly synchronsied focus and intent they share the same dream and own the same energy body. They dream themselves into a ship or a room with windows they mentally constructed beforehand. Those human explorers would manifest to other beings similarly like UFOs for us. I've already taken some steps to using ship like dream rooms by doing some "horizon-enginering" in F21/F22.

However if you refer to bubbles from my post you quoted then you may misunderstood me. By bubbles I meant personal dream environments of different dreamers. Those bubbles are separating and uniting when dreamers are meet and divorce. For instance, you invite a dreamer by saying his name aloud and he come in your dream bedroom. If you focus your attention on his body you may found yourself in a place you never seen before. This place is the other dreamer dreams about. However, if you refuse the pull by sustaining sights of elements from your original environment your "bubbles" would only unite forming a strange mix of the two places. Sensory bubbles are similar to virtual conference rooms we would likely encounter in our lifetime.

Mustardseed:

quote:I often just enter trance and lie there, with hypnogic images floating by as I drift in and out of the images. How do I proceed, what stages am I in. I loved the astral trips but the relaxing maybe more needed. Is there a possibility that I passed the astral stages?

It is possible. People tend to call all fleeting visual experiences they have in near sleep states as "hypnagogic pictures." In fact, most of those pictures are simply not conductive for OBEs.

For me, intent seems the key for ganuine and repeatable out of body experiences. Hypnagogic imageries are only tips of the iceberg. They could be results of different underlying processes. Intent is the real drive for having the proper hypnagogics.

Typical hypnagogic attacks most likely mark the brain's attempts to enter REM-sleep directly from waking. Those attempts are repeated in every 90-110 minutes, but wakefulness or greater priority of the need for deep sleep could prevent them. However, if someone is talented in WILD it could be done to enter directly into REM by the gentle manipulation of hypnagogic pictures.

Normally the sleep progress like this: waking..1.HG.2..3..4..3..2..REM..(HP..brief awakening..1.HG.)2..3..4..3..2..REM..(HP.brief awakening.1.HG..)2..3.., etc., where HG is hypnagogic-, HP is hypnopompic imagery and greater numbers mean progressively more deeper stages of sleep, states that will be missing from morning sleep and midday naps. Stages in paranthesis occur only if you intend to remember your dreams (or in the morning when you are already rested).


Vannostrom:

quote:Last night i lay in bed with my arms by my side palms down, cleared my mind and concentrated on breathing. Within 10 minutes i lost all feeling in my body and after that it felt like my body was bloated and huge and my head felt like it was really low in the middle of my body. After that i felt like i was rising and floating and after 5 minutes of this i floated back down and felt semi normal. I got bored and turned over and went to sleep. What focus level did i achieve?

Progression between focus levels occurs not along a single line (1D). Even 3D models (like Hobson's "AIM cube" that deals with sleep stages in 3D) is unfeasible to accurately locate focus levels.

I think, labelling our experiences has no practical value when we have nothing we could relate to, except some arbitrarily chosen numbers.

Maybe you were somewhere between F10 and F12 because no etheric separation of F10 nor instant sight of F12 were involved - maybe not.

You have done it, you own the experience. Now you could repeat it by remembering its feelings.


BlackTalon:

quote:Someone mentioned a grid or pattern. I've only had that once but I don't know if it's the same thing cause I was barely into my meditation when i noticed a patern, kinda like a bmp that you would use to tile on a webpage, then i felt like i was moving forward and my eyes start twitching like mad...I definetly wasnt expecting that so I think i threw myself out by being excited..is this the same or something different?

In F12 eyes are motionless so it seems you experienced the onset of REM. The great thing is that you was conscious.

quote:I've read in buddhism books that and like was said in here earlier not to concentrate on lights and swirls etc...would there be different types of meditations where you would only concentrate on these anomolies to a different end?

I think the fundamental difference between Phasing and OBE lies on the choice one make between concentrating either on the visuals or the body.

I've heard blind people can't see in lucid dreams but you do can fly, Sarah. You could fly even with your chair or bed. Eventually you would forget the limiting conception of your body. You just need to find a personal method you could believe in.

Perhaps you could try to imagine your chair becoming weightless and lifting you upward. It would be hard to start but after 1 minutes or so you the chair will lift off. From that point everything is easy.  

If windows are small, as they are so many times in our dreams, just dig a hole into a wall by pointing your finger to it and drawing a circle. Imagine the enclosed part transforming into glass then air or simply push it out of the way.

You could stretch your neck, too by trying to see something above. Your "head" would got more mobility then physical attachment drops away without your notice.

Yeah it's part of the 6 Shatkarmas (cleneasing process) of the Hatha yoga.



Now an another masterpiece which I call "deflated enthusiasm"

[image]http://img1.uploadimages.net/809896sd.jpg[/image]

It's beautiful, I can even see the toilet light of my house. However, the picture should be some manipulation because the entire globe is immersed in darkness.

Probably the most beautiful city at night is Hong Kong:
http://www.pbase.com/accl/hong_kong

There are people who just want to oppose current trends to be unique. I think, Susan Blackmore is one of them. Just see her green and purple hair on this photo below, look into her eyes and you'd see her personality.

[image]http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/Photos%20of%20Sue/images/Sb7.jpg[/image]

Blackmore is the bad example when woman doing science. Taking various drugs is as easy as got frustrated after many years of failure to repeat an early OBE experience. So, after the paranormal has not worked she made carrier in the SCICOP. They didn't interested in her lack of scientific ability because sceptics don't do any scientific research. They just attack paranormal researchers to defend ourselves.

indeed

You know, Hannah, mirroring and organizing all the porn sites currently exist on the Net takes some time.

But I messed up my explanation with an arty flick - of course positive ions don't repel negative ones. The main point is still that breathing air that rich in positive ions is definately an unhealthy occupation. Not only make your eyes red (I like to believe that my eyes are results of spiritual enlightement, vigorous practice of Shirsasana and not come from CRTs and smoking pot). Fluorescent light sources generates positive ions too.

I advise you to purchase a negatice ion generator (ionizer) and place it on your monitor to let those little ions to do their (edit)-coupling business without your concern.

After all those bad science and crap poetry I've done I'm glad you are still here.

Tom you're right about the honey-projections, they are pretty old. Although in my case, heavy vibrations was never involved in etheric projections only RTZ. I wonder why etheric times are gone. Perhaps they are detrimental so the body has learned to avoid them?

I think distinct pre-states for various types of projections are exist. We could wake up in one of them and something in our body will know what subtle manipulations are needed to procure separation. It's fairly automatic, presumably because our bodies could remember similar situations from the past.

There are times when my body is stick to one type of preseparation stage for couple of days like it was trying to learn it. For example, there was a period when I've always projected with a strong pull above my liver (I mean definately not in the middle) accompained by an indescrinable feeling about a "flip" from the previous dream's atmosphere to more outside.

I think they are something in our mind that could be conditioned for getting automatically aware of OBE-conductive states we could encounter on our way to sleep and back. In my case this ability is a result of my intent for doing some projection no matter what states comes forth. Fluidity and passivity of my mind and letting irrational beliefs to grow out from nothing was also greatly involved.

quote:For example, have a (non-physical) female computer voice comment on my exiting.

I'm sure that is not simply a belief. The consciousness of my energy body has, too, a female computer voice when I ask it in dreaming.

I've studied the cable for three years and I know its dynamics pretty well to conclude it's more than a belief. Other movements of "etheric separations" could be the most objective aspects of the whole OBE-phanomena! When I've been having those experiences I was fairly naive.

quote:I would love to try that [etheric separations], but in the way I experience focus 10 I don't think that's possible.

I think you're right. States induced by binaural exposition seem somewhat unnatural for me. I admit that I have no experiences with the real tapes and my emulations are not good and they effect might be far from real OBE-producing prestates. However, I've heard from others too and it is pretty consistent with my experiences, that one has to cease binaural exposition after about 20-40 minutes to get an OBE.

I've been hearing many people complaining about how difficult is to project with the tapes. The trick I think is to cease the binaural stimulation after the desired focus level is supposed to be reached. As neither mine rips, nor the original tapes are perfect. They could facilitate the desired state by increasing the proper bands of the EEG-power spectrum, but they are still frozen wave-patterns that couldn't be perfect for anyone and any time.

In 2002 I've got some promising results by exposing myself to a BWG-emulated version of F12. This project was an attempt to conqure the early evening circadian window for OBEing. Usually after about 30-40 minutes of exposition I used to turn on my stomach/right side to project on my own. Besides the act of intending projection and some inner silence I was pracice no elaborted technique was needed. Often I was concentrated on the inner noises because they seemed to be amplified.

The carrier intensity profile has chosen almost arbitrarily. Actually I've made experiments with three different carrier-volume profile, one of them was about twice as efficient. With that preset I've got 4 and a 'half' succes by a total of 10 attempts in a time span of three months that involved the testing of the other two presets as well. The most successfull one has a relative volume profile of 30/20/15/15/10/10/10 for the carriers of 100, 200, 250, 300, 400, 500, 600 (Hz) respectively. If there is anyone who want to give it a try but not understood this frequency stuff, etc. just send me a PM and we work out something.

quote:Actual seperation occurs for me only when all my physical senses have shut down, and in focus 10 my visual as well as auditory senses are still active. Could it be that you experiences, and having difficulty seperating from this state could perhaps be due to a conflict in incomplete sensory reduction?

Perhaps the opposite is true. For me, practicing with binaurals is like being grounded to C1 all allong. If my consciousness isn't lost by the impact of a new state most likely I have no feelings about tresholds beyond which my consciousness seems to be entirely isolated from my body - which isolation is, I think, something that definately needed for an etheric OBE.

Binaural stimulation only provide some information for the brain about a state that could be set in for a while providing that the following conditions are met:
1.) the binaurally described state is natural or at least it is close to a natural state (Natural states have a more greater probability so they could be sustained by the current "wiring pattern of the brain." By exposing the brain to a pattern that show a new equilibrum state the brain is compelled to reorganising itself. When the rewiring process is done black out periods would decrease and consciousness could be kept all along.);
2.) the intent and current belief system should support the process;
3.) the actual state of the underlying regulation system should support the state alteration.

So getting in F10, F12 or whatever is not an automatic process at all and can't be forced by the tapes. In fact, lower volumes are more efficient becasue the actual wave pattern only provide the description of the desired state in terms that the brain could understand. Intent is the real drive for state alteration which is made possible or not by the current belief system.

quote:Also, I think if you would heavily imagine an effortless seperation during the day, your next etheric seperation will have a whole diferetn set of sensations.

Sure. But for me this is not a problem anymore, because, unfortunately those times seem to be over. Recently I'm thinking about inducing etheric projections again by using some old methods.

quote:I call it RTZ is because seemingly the transition of 3 seconds from 10 to 21, I continue to be aware of my surroundings (as per my awareness of spatial position, and the sensation of my second body lying on the bed later on. So seemingly, it seems to be the same bedroom.

Understood.

quote:

quote:I have to say it's a fascinating concept, something that could unite our different views. I've already thought about what if the blackness I'm experience after getting out of my dream bed is actually the 3D blackness!

Yes, excellent observation. Very likely that is the case, except that normally most people see the 3D blackness without a sense of body, and wait for an astral screen.

People need to be aware the fact that separation is possible in phasing by searching for thus creating the sense of a body.

quote:Oh No. You can't get more RTZ than me. I hardly know how to do anything else . 95% of all my OBEs have been in the RTZ, or what I seem to recognize it as. Phasing into the astral, or move from RTZ to astral is a major struggle for me.

I'm sorry to hear all that. Could it be that you just sleepwalking around and your wife just let you believe what you want?

quote:Of course, moving from focus 10 to 21 is also phasing I suppose, but I think anyone does that when experincing the typial OBE.

I doubt it. In this case exactly that aspect would be missing that's supposed to make the actual attempt to Phasing: the seamless process of decondensation. No doubt, we could see dream pictures in F10 and we could enter them, but I think, it's require only one mindsplit that would skip F12 entirely. Therefore the emanation cone couldn't be established. For me the F10 to F21 movement (if it is) is similar like seeing a window and my body at the other side and trying to find out how to inhabit that body.

Thanks for your thoughts and observations Tom, they were very useful.

Frank wrote:

quote:I've got no concrete evidence that would satisfy a court. Just the usual empirical stuff brought about over the years. Another thing, while I use it (because most other people do) I dislike the term astral projection as it's a tad too mystical for me.

I too don't like the word astral, but hey, that is what we got in a forum called "Astral Pulse." I have some evidences about etheric and RTZ projections but astral projection seems to be entirely out of my grip.

However I could imagine a method for proving it. Using the relativistic time distortion effect that seems its inherent part we could accomplish mental computations that otherwise would require great amount of real time and brain activity. The most appropriate task would be some table like iteration, a life game or something that needs drawing, thus the final result couldn't be computed without going through every steps. The entire session would be monitored by a simple EEG-machine to prove deep sleep.

quote:The only time I have to deal with my physical after that, is when I feel an all too familiar tugging which says it wants me back for some reason.

Could you describe that feeling, your initial situation and the waking up process? Also, I would be grateful if you would try the djin method I've described in this thread and tell me about your observations here or in PM.

Hehe, Hannah. Your situation is as serious as mine. You don't need to fear from working with computers anymore. You're already addicted. The danger would come when you decide to quite and have a "normal life."

Anyways, the CRT-monitors do the greates damage. They produce a strong EM-field that generate both positive and negative ions. While the surface of the monitor bound the negative ones, positive ions (bad, bad) are emitted onto our faces where having a repuslion effect on the "healthy," negative ones, so we cant inhale them in the required amounts.

Negative ions are required for decomposition of serotonin. High levels of serotonin are associated with tiredness and depression. The result is called Serotonin Irritation Syndrome (SIS). But I have to note, tiredness and depression is definately not my conditions, so in this sesne people should be different.

[image]http://img1.uploadimages.net/396579itsover.jpg[/image]
the 80's is over...

Yeah that was a spontaneus flip. I still didn't practice it from waking. I'm sad seeing the days passing by.

Good luck to everyone,

>>> upstream

Your description is not enough to give any hint or figure out what happened. People need more details to be able to say yes or no. Keep practising.

I've thought only have three. I've read only the first one, "Journeys Out of the Body." It's very good.

It definately is, Tom, thanks for your detailed response. Seems old dogs like me can't learn new tricks, but at least, you guys makes me think about the process again. Now I sit in my armchair molding my snots into little balls, that is for me a sure sign of being involved in deep thinking. So, my reply would be long.


1. honey

quote:Yes, honey typed substance is a nice way to describe some of the aspexcts of focus 10. Things start to get "fluffy" in terms of what remains of feeling the body as focus 10 starts to get deeper. Quite a comfortable relaxing state.

Actually, when I wrote about that "honey like substance" I meant it quite literally. In that state I feel my body made of a substance that seems to be some mix of gas, honey and rubber bands. It takes a great effort for me to force separation in that state, an agressive force that seems entirely missing from other types of projection I got the luck to know so far.

Etheric separation is tricky to get started, because there is no real paralysis just my body is extremly relaxed. First I need to distinguish between my physical body and the etheric substance, but after I suceed the process would goes fine. I'm not sure that those discriminations is really needed, but I always feel a treshold where my phyical body would move. After I got a good mental grip on that snot I need to exert a great deal of force to pull it out. When I was about half in and out sometimes I feel tiny threads stretching out then being ripped apart by the tension.

Other times I've observed my body in a similar state as being similar to a sack full of water. By protuding (!) my "arm" other areas has got more tightly bounded. An another occasion when I awakened from the disembodied state of a hypnagogic show (just call it phasing if you would like) and I grabbed back to my groin area I found vessel like threads and no any tommy. I think those vessels are the nadis (EM-tubes) or perhaps the blood flood of vessels (ion strems) in the abdomen. I was able to stretch and deform the vessels by trying to separate my trunk but they were keeped inside my body. I wasn't able to see yet somehow I felt them through the darkness. Once I "saw" similar vessels in my arms too, they seemed to were embedded is the honey, which is, I think the etheric substance or more precisely, bioplasm, body areas sepcific ions that locally produced and used up in various tissues.

But the most interesting thing occurs with separation. After I'm out I usually see a cable attaching to the solar plexus regio of my double. At tha same time I always hear the sounds of my breathing coming from everywhere and I could hear distorted noises from the physical reality (verified). I have to note that it is possible that I mixed up two similar types of projection above. Anyways, I think this states are corresponfd to the deepest stage of NREM sleep.

I used to induce them by a mixture of self-hypnosis, concentrating on my solar plexus regio and oscillating my attention between the actual sense of my body and a more internal focus (result of imagining the feelings of various surfaces and noises that colliding objects make) to periodically turn my awareness away from my sumberling body. At one point, most likely after several brief periods of unconsciousness I use to get a crystal clear awareness as a sure signal that it's time for attempting a separation.

I would be grateful if you would try the etheric separation from your deep F10 states and share your experiences. Considering they instability maybe it's a pointless practice but the result is still an interesting state to explore.


2. mataphores

quote:Then the next question becomes, how deep does the 'self' go?

Good question. We might could answer after we defined what self is...

quote:I suppose you could call phasing an inward OBE, but then again, maybe ultimately OBEing also consists of going inward into an image of the bedroom except that we generally locate that image as existing outside ourselves. The whole inward/outward thing is a very complicated issue that touches upon self-world bounderies and how these bounderies may shift where self becomes world (perception).

Indeed. By exposing myself to the concepts of fluctocondensation, terms of 'inward' and 'outward' have lost their original meaning. I hope it wouldn't further increase confusion but I have to introduce some metaphores at this point. Perhaps they make more sense than many pages of detailed explanations (that will come though), especially if one is able to get they meaning intuitively.

When I think about "inward" and "outward" sometimes I see our essence in a sand-glass shape that composed from two cones with their apexes meeting in the neck regio (that would correspond to F15). Other times I see ourselves as a bubble with a hole in its top: the hatch into the outside world in F21. From this point one can project into personal worlds of probabilties, lucid dreams (by moving "latrerally") or (by moving "centrifugally") into the vast dimensional "space" of unknown that surrounds the bubble.

I wouldn't be suprised if every human like consciousness system is living they lifes within a similar bubble. The bubble is the mental representation of the world as it is manifested through the work of our sensory systems. It is a shield and a filter made by our similarly constructed brains to form a secure "environment" where consciousness could evolve inside, kinda like butterflies in their cocoons.

But in reality, we are hovering in the darkness of the unknown and our sensory experiences are just fleeting images of our frightened mind.


3. dynamics

Once again, the essence what I want to express with my poor English is that while the 3D blackness is likely the result of the preliminary stage of (an F12-based) field-expansion, the astral screen is more likely represent the onset of the regular dreaming process (the second mindsplit after the F10->F12 transition). Unfortunately, I've never experienced the 3D blackness or I have no memories about anything similar I could acces in this moment, except some star fields and seeing through my closed eyes. Now I know the reason as well: basically the drive of phasing is an outward directed visual awareness, something i don't practice anymore. I think successfull phasing lies on the ability to sustain attention outside of the limited space of the faint, unstructured light patterns we could see behind our closed eyes.

A relevant piece of information from http://www.innerworlds.50megs.com/neuromed.htm:

quote:What you do is first close your eyes and be aware of your breathing. Then look into the darkness behind your eyelids. Orient your eyes towards the point directly in front of you. At the same time, place your visual attention on a point above it. To do it you will have to separate the direction of your visual attention form the direction of your eyes. One person found that it created a large amount of visual imagery in just a few seconds. Another found themselves disappearing, felt shocked at this and pulled themselves out of the experience.

By phasing away from this hole the brain is supposed to shut down into a stand-by mode but will continue its work as a silent radio receiver. What makes the information download possible is the "silver cord of astral projections", a hypothetic energy structure I call 'emanation cone.' Basically the rote of the cone would be identical with an F12-type field (in interacrion with those EM-tubes that are generated by reverberating systems in the brain). Its further parts are marked by the trajectory that the energy body follow through its decondensation process. I suppose the information transmission is not only influenced by relativistic time distortion but regarding the ultradian rythms and the ever changing atmospheric conditions it should be phasic in nature.

Major Tom again:

quote:I don't know how to approach focus 12 to be honest. It does seem people very quickly come across the 3d blackness, and perhaps evebn more routinely than the symbols of focus 12.

Seems we're in the same boat. F12, as it being descibed by so many seems out of my grip too. I think F12 is an unnatural state. With F21 they could represent the opposite ends of the same spectrum of the rapid decondensation process of the F12/RTZ-body.

I suppose, everyone has a natural state to attain between F12 and F21 represented by a specific degree of decondensation of the consciousness field and a corresponding subjective experience of the 3D blackness. While F12 is the preliminary stage of, the astral screen effect and seeing through the closed eyes represent the F21-end of the desondensation process.

I still believe that phasing is an OBE in which the F12 body is compelled to decondensate in situ. On the other hand, in the case of a typical RTZ-OBE that may turn into an astral projection, the F12 body split "horizontally" by ejecting its low energy copy into the RTZ. The F12-body is not bounded to the tissues like the F10/bioplasm body. It is totally independent from the physical body and could emerge directly into the RTZ at any point one would believe it to occupy by condensating from the vacuum. Close to bioplasm sources like rich vegetation or our own physical body the dense F12-field is wrapped into etheric substance (F10-body) and get bounded. I've observed the formation of my bioplasm cable close to the body in RTZ (some breath work was needed to).

But the main point is that the exteriorised F12-copy is still free to decondensate into the astral totally independently from its originator that plays the main role in the phasing process, alone. Of course, in reality there are no original and child-field, but differencies in the amount of energy they having - corresponding to the "amount of consciousness." The personality cannot sustain itself in a carrier that running on a lower energy state without being object of some shematization (think about broken holograms: their parts become faint, but keep the whole picture).

To keep it short, the most important issue: if the decondensed "external" F12-copy get lost through an astral projection, I mean before the recondensation process (returning from the astral) and the reintegration of the condensed field takes place memories will be lost. If the returning is hurried up by waking up prematurely for instance, then memories would be week. The reason is simple: they are some cascade type reaction in the cone that required to be intact for sucessfull memory-transmission. However, the cone is very unlikely in OBEs. If it exists, it would be connected to an external condensatum that could persist only as a result of unconscious application of the twin method.


4. practical aspects

I think the ideal method for going home from an astral trip would had a similar structure with the djinn experience I've described at the end of my previous post. First, by concentrating the space around the body we should remotely reaching back and get contact with an expanded but body bounded field of energy, then second, we should try to spin up that energy to trigger the retraction process.

quote:I personally use the focus 21 to establish focus 10. It exerts a stronger pull for me than the focus 10 tape, and my body mutes far quicker. I don't pay any attention the instructions on the tape.

I suppose F12 wave pattern is only let the natural expansion of the consciousness-filed to unfold while the F21 wave pattern excerts a pull from the other side by facilitating the brain state measured just before the onset of REM. Perhaps F21 is efficient but F12 is more mysterious, because it is an "unnatural" state between waking, REM & deep sleep.

If you own the tapes not the CD version it would be a good idea to preserv them by playing them onto your computer. You could also loop a segment and burn it onto a CD to get rid of voices of the Monroe family. But if you have the patterns on our HDD, it would be very difficult to surmount the temptation and not to analysing them. As far as I know (sources contradict each other) there are at least 2 (3?) types of F21.

I think, speculations about the dynamics are not important in our current state, even they could be detrimental by setting up self-limiting barriers. But one thing I know for sure: more close for the reality the models we construct, more adept we become to manipulate reality. Perhaps in the buisness of OBE is even more true that there is nothing as practical as a good theory. For example, by imagining a modified process of phasing, we could serve the process for our intent to hook into. Another: by defining the fundamental vectors of projection (centrifugal, centripetal, horizontal) we could travel by, our navigation would become more easier.

Also, I see a couple of direct practical applications looming up in the distance. First the twin technique and the polarity flipping manoeuvre. They are practical solutions for getting phasing into work from ordinary lucid dreams, second, making secondary, terciary, etc. internal projections by multipiled twin methods (something I'm currently on) and third, appling the reverse phasing process I've described in my previous post. Due to the fact that you have already emphatised, that is, after F10 everything goes very fast, perhaps the most important thing we migh need to understand is the underlaying regulation of our waking consciousness (ultradian hypothesis of state alteration) and timing our attempts accordingly.


5. F12 to F21 field decondensation & the 3D-blackness

quote:Characteristically, if you are in focus 21 you will have a very strong of self that is in 3D blackness with an astral screen effect not far around the corner. This strong sense of self is often less apparant in becoming lucid through dreamlike images in my experience. However, I'm sure it's possible to move towards focus 22 (lucid dreaming) directly from focus 10 by going deep and partially lucid into some dream vignettes, which easily occur in focus 10. However, this strong sense of self in focus 21, which if one is very proficient at phasing can be held throughout the focus levels until the point of 21 where there is a true astral screen effect.

I understand your point perfectly and I think you have just summarised all the characteristic features of the Phasing Process!

However, I'm afraid that we still don't understand each other. I mean the language barrier - I understand English very well yet I'm unable to express myself -, but the main problem is the lack of consensus in the terms we use to describe our experiences. At first, for me, I cannot consider the F22-dreaming as a typical lucid dream scenario at all. As a result of progressively increasing my awareness, a couple of times I was seen the desintegration of the landscape into a dark, surreal space filled by house-ship like objects like soap-bubbles in tha air. When I project in the opposite direction, moving away from the RTZ by ordering my energy body to move "centrifugally" I saw the disfigured version of my "landing unit" when I look back. Like an abstract and constantly changing mixture of a house and a spaceship. The landscape seems to be a more interpreted version of this level that associated with lesser lucidity. This is the layer where one form of shared dreaming is supposed to takes place. Many would call it as lower astral, I suppose. It is a twilight zone without nights and days where the space as we know is just collapsing. One could reach this zone by stepping into a fantom wall then stabilising the surreal space behind by carefully moving attention between the palm and the darkness. At one point perception would open up and darkness got depths. Perhaps the result is similar to the 3D blackness. Second, the body feeling one may hold through the induction process is part of our unconscious defense. It's only maintained by the direction of your awareness. If an induction method would not include the act of monitoring the body for at least time to time because it is visually oriented like phasing one would not experience any body at all. Third... there is no third.

quote:I either could wait for an astral screen, or fly off into RTZ.

If you separations indeed occur in F21 as mine are supposed to then I doubt that it's the RTZ. For me there is not real separation, no efforts are involved in that state. I just get out of my bed and move like I do when I need to take a leak. The only difference that I couldn't see. I call that state F22-dreaming. How did you come to the conclusion that it is the RTZ? Furthermore, what do you mean by 'flying off into RTZ'? Perhaps you have governed a more flexible belief system than me by using the key concepts of Phasing. It could be that you directly "separate" into that space that I could see behind F22-walls.

What grabbed my attention is your observation about the 3D blackness that seems to manifest after you lifted upwards. I found an even more interesting assumption of yours when you asked Frank that weither he would "simply starting to move around in the 3d blackness as if it were your bedroom?" I have to say it's a fascinating concept, something that could unite our different views. I've already thought about what if the blackness I'm experience after getting out of my dream bed is actually the 3D blackness!

Once again, the difference lies on the direction of our awareness: yours is visually oriented (Phasing), mine is kynestesic (OBE). I use to periodically check my body while attempting an OBE. When time of F21-separation has came I still focus on the sense of my dream body because I believe I have to walk away from the bed to stabilize the dream by touching funitures, walls. Perhaps I not stabilize the dream but more precisely I trigger it into existence. To finish that I need to get my vision by focusing little details on my palm or any given surface I could touch. Sometimes I use my palm to get vision on without getting out of the bed, but basically it is the same. I never tired to look through the darkness [a]right after[/a] separation because years ago I came to a conclusion that the only thing I could see is the usual entopic light patterns.

But I had some experiment with "teleportation" in that state that support this theory. Perhaps you have observed as well that some "F21-separation" takes place in a room that is not you actual bedroom but most likely a place you slept before. It could be part of an another house that even don't exist by now. The "teleportation" trick is simple: before you have your vision you could pretend yourself anywhere. After you got the confidence that you are indeed at the place you want to you could anchore yourself with the wall contact trick and trigger visuals on your palms. If visuals are alredy on you could step into a wall to deprive yourself at first. This tricks works because F22-places are just mental represenations in the F21-space. They are projected from the centre of our self quite unconsciously in order to protect ourseves from the uninterpretendable (this word is copyrighted).

We are blinded by pictures we project around but walking on nothing. Our decondesed energy bodies work like spotlights for guidence and for those whom energy fields hold the similar condensation degree. Phase specific perception could manifest by turning attention away from dream pictures by stepping into walls for example and by establishing a real outwardly directed perception. See my point? I can't explain myself better.

Frank wrote:

quote:As I see the 3D blackness I hold off a moment and the starscape effect will change texture and form a kind of screen. So it becomes like I'm sitting in a cinema watching a big screen from a short distance away.

Yeah, it could be the REM-window before the general 3D-background of F21. Generally this window could be interpreted as the narrowed version of the entire astral bedroom.

quote:So I'll place the Intent to do this and flip-through a number of scenes of various places on the screen. When I see something interesting I'll step into the image. A few moments later I'll find myself at that place within the Astral.

Yes it's pretty much like my old "WILD." I need to practice it again. I think it quite possible to reach the astral through the various windows of F21 similarly as I do it from the surreal space type dream version of F21. But I'm curious: Frank, have you got some evidence that made you sure about that the result of that type of phasing you described is indeed an astral projection? To avoid misapprehension, by astral projection I mean shutting down of the brain into deep sleep (no REM or activity in the visual system), and various degree of time distortion (the felt experience seems more longer than its real time compound), and most importantly: because of the deep sleep there is no cognition possible by the brain. Or could it be F22-dreaming? By F22 dreaming I mean the state which you would experience after getting up from your bed into the darkness. It is REM-sleep.

quote:3) At the 3D blackness stage, I hold off moving towards some kind of effect as in (1) and hold off the Astral Screen effect as in (2). Then I'll think of myself gently rocking from side to side. At first nothing will happen and when I was first trying this I'd think too much of my physical, end up back there and have to begin again. So I have to think of myself rocking gently from side to side *as if* I were in the physical, but not actually... if you see what I mean. Then, after a few seconds, I'll get the sensation of being in a body. Again, when this first happened I thought, oh no, back in the physical (because that's kinda how it feels). But much to my surprise I wasn't. Once I feel "locked" within this "body" I can simply roll a couple of times to one side and find myself in the real-time zone.

It definately makes sense for me, and pretty consistent with my experiences (too many tossing bodies around the time of separation). If indeed the further deconsdensation process of an already "expansed" F12-body would be responsible for the 3D-effect and phasing in general than the rocking body experience either could be the "root of the cone" (the dense part of the F12-field in RTZ), or its decondensed upper end. The latter is the energetic background of the dream/astral body that could be either in F21 (3D blackness) or in the astral representation of the bedroom (beyond the astral screen effect of F21).

I think our evolution as individuals point in a direction of getting able to sense this "cone" as a whole, which is actually our totality that seems to be dispersed along the continuum of consciousness. We are going from below C1 and headed to F-God or kinda like. Seems we are at a threshold beyond which would be no more houses and walls just pure awareness...