Messages

[of at least three different ways to try to obtain proof]

Hi Tombo, first of all, thank you very much for posting your experiments, I find them very interesting and helpful to anybody who might attempt similar tests.

Let me give you a few brief ideas that just occurred to me about it:

- To begin with, I must say I am not an expert with AP, so I could not tell you what is best to do to try to avoid the distortions between the physical plane and the astral plane. I wish some experienced projectors could give some wise advice about it: useful techniques, mental control, mental power, etc.

- In the Spanish Science forum we have thought of at least three different ways to try to obtain proof of the "reality" of these experiences (*1):

1) Watching the physical plane while you are in the astral plane and reporting on it correctly (that's what you are trying to do now). If this could be done, it would be great because it is the simplest experiment. However, it presents the difficulty of the distortions between the astral and the physical planes: the problem of the RTZ (Real Time Zone).

2) Group OBE. Trying to communicate with another person who is also in the astral plane with you (Ex: two experienced projectors... or anybody, really, for instance, some friend of yours who is sleeping and you wake him up in the astral plane). That way, even if you don't meet with that person in the physical plane (perhaps you could meet with him/her in other planes?), you could still communicate with him/her and exchange relevant information that could be verified later, like in this example:

- "Faraway can be so close..." (Post #1):
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=17261

3) Telekinesis (regular or astral). That is, "astral telekinesis" (moving physical objects while you are in the astral plane), or "regular telekinesis" (moving physical objects while you are in the physical plane). Both types of telekinesis will be a valid way to provide proof of anormal phenomenon from the stand point of the scientific community. There are many types of experiments that could be set up if this could be done. For instance, you could use an Analog to Digital Convertor (ADC) to convert the analog signals (of the moving objects) into digital signals that could be input and saved in a computer ("0" and "1"). That's like writing in the hard disk of a computer. We've talked about it in this thread:

- Can you move a physical object from the astral plane?
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21202
Check comments from AstralBorn in page 4 and 5:
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21202&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=30

One question: did you try to touch, move or pick up the butterfly or the bee?

In another post I will make further comments about the three methods.

Un saludo. qbeac.

P.S. 1. (*1) Note: when I say "the reality of these experiences", I mean "reality" from the reference point of the physical plane, because in theory there could be other planes just as real as the physical one. So we are taking about "relative realities."

P.S. 2. Addional info and ideas about Group OBE experiments:

- A single controller could perfectly handle several projectors at the same time. The controller would only need to change the target whenever a projector reads it (or sees it). If the target could be change automatically, such as with a computer screen in which the different images were changed frequently, the job of the controller would be very easy.

- If several projectors work with a single controller, the probabilities of some of them meeting in the same place (right by the target) at the same time, increases. That could be a good and interesting experiment all by itself. Later on, according to the accounts of people who may meet in the astral plane by the target, we may design a more sophisticated set up in order to verify "mathematically significant" information that the projectors may exchange among each other, and incorporate all the necessary security measures. This might require for some projectors to stay temporarily in a control environment (Ex: a lab) so that there is not any possible way the exchange information before the experiment is over... but we'll see how things develop, we'll go step by step.

- Another idea: the "projector" may work comfortably at home. The "controller" may be any voluntary student from any university or university hospital, who agrees to sleep that night in a controlled room (locked up, isolated, with an alarm button near by, of course, etc.). There are many students in the universities, and I don't think we will run short of voluntaries.

Now then, the student would have to memorize a specific target that only he will know because it has been automatically generated by a computer which is inside his room (or in a closed box with a glass on it, so that you can look at it but cannot manipulate it). Therefore, nobody else, besides the student, will know what the target is. And the computer will record the target inside the hard drive. The student will be the intermediary between the information (originated in the computer) and the projector, who will have to come and get it from the student.

If a projector can "talk" to the student in the astral plane and the student can "tell" him what the specific information is, next morning we could verify if both pieces of information coincide or not.... Well, something like that, do you get the idea? What do you think? Any suggestions are welcome.

We encourage any projector to help with this common venture. It will be fun and we all may collaborate to build a better world and a better future for mankind (Please, remember Howard Storm's NDE).

Please, if you may know other projectors, tell them about this experiment. Thanks.

Please, if you may know any serious researcher (doctor, scientists, etc.) who may be interested in the experiment, tell them about it.

This experiment may last for several months, maybe a few years. So, let's take it easy, let's go step by step, and let's enjoy the ride.

[they would have to change, modify or update current scientific books. And that's a VERY big deal for modern science (for medicine, psychology, psychiatry, physics, etc.)!]

... However, for me, I am more micro-orientated than macro-orientated and I just love to learn things for my own development....
Sarah

Hi Selski (Sarah) and everyone else,

Well, Selski, I thought it was a very good description what you said about being more micro-orientated than macro-orientated. In my case, I guess I must be more macro-orientated than micro-orientated, and perhaps that's why I am so much interested in obtaining scientific proof.... although participating in this forum, and even more, administrating it, is also a macro-oriented activity  

But please, let me clarify a few things about my point of view:

To begin with, I must say that I already believe these experiences are real, among other reasons because I have had several ones myself, and I don't need further proof "for myself" (I have my "Level 1 validation" and that's good enough for me). Also, when I say "real" experiences as opposed to "imaginary" experiences, I mean it from the stand point of the scientific community, which only accepts as "real" the physical world (Ex: there could be many other "real" planes other than the physical plane). So, when I say "real" I mean "real from the reference point of the physical plane."

But if these experiences were to be "real from the reference point of the physical plane", that would have a tremendous importance for the scientific community, because it would imply that a human being can do things that they thought were IMPOSIBLE according to current scientific knowledge. Therefore, they would have to change, modify or update current scientific books. And that's a VERY big deal for modern science (for medicine, psychology, psychiatry, physics, etc.)!

Further more, in the case we could obtain scientific proof that AP are "real" experiences, and considering that nowadays just about everybody can have easy accesses to this "new" knowledge via the modern means of communication (specially via Internet, forums, etc.), it seems to me that we may be on the verge of an evolutionary change in society, or an evolutionary leap forward, and I mean a positive change. In other words, we may be on the verge of a huge paradigm shift, probably bigger and better than the previous ones (Ex: Galileo, Newton, Einstein...).
 
But in order for that change to happen, or to not be blocked, or to proceed, or to happen with a greater speed, or to consolidate itself, in my opinion, it is necessary to obtain empirical proof, or scientific proof, or conclusive proof that these experiences are "real" and not imaginary (please, remember, "real" according to the physical plane).
 
The scientific community has the key to facilitate or to promote that change, or the contrary, to block it or delay it. Because if the scientific community officially validates these experiences, that will open the door for the public recognition and acceptance of these experiences by the rest of humanity, and vice versa.
 
This situation is kind of similar to what happened in Galileo's time: first a great deal of opposition and rejection, but later on, and as the evidence kept piling up, it was simply impossible to deny it.

Therefore, if the final goal we all seem to agree upon is for just about every body in the world to have access to this new knowledge and to try to AP for themselves, so that they can spiritually grow and together build a better world, a happier world, with more justice, more tolerance, more solidarity, more love, etc.... if that's what we all want, it seems to me that the scientific community, for better or worse, has an important role to play in this process right now, because if the scientific community validates theses experiences as "real", the process will accelerate and more people will be able to practice AP sooner. But if the scientific community keeps on believing these experiences are "imaginary", the process will slow down or even be blocked during who knows how many more years or decades.

So, that's why I am personally so much interested in the scientific proof, more for macro-reasons rather than for micro-reasons. Scientific proof could facilitate or even speed up the whole process. But, that's only my personal opinion, and I might be wrong, I am not sure.

I would like to add one more thing:

Regarding the experiments we are doing, we are willing to adjust every single experiment to the circumstances and particularities of any projector, since we are very much aware that this is an experiment with "human beings", and each person may need a different environment to feel comfortable. Also, we believe natural phenomenon does not need to adapt to Science, on the contrary, it is Science the one that should try to adapt to natural phenomenon.

Un saludo, qbeac.

["appeal to authority."]

Hi Ben K, I understand what you are saying, but in my opinion, one of the key elements that are still missing is serious research studies about this topic published in prestigious scientific journals such as Nature, Science, The Lancet, etc., etc., etc.

It is true that right now there are plenty of anecdotal evidences about these types of experiences, but at the same time, there are not very many serious studies published in those types of prestigious journals. And no matter how many anecdotal evidences there are, they will never be enough in comparison to a few very rigorous articles published in those scientific journals.

The article in The Lancet from Dr. Pim van Lommel (year 2001) has been one of the pioneers of its kind, but there need to be more similar ones, which all together will be more conclusive. That's what happens in science with new findings, that a single study is usually not enough... the scientific community needs time and very solid proof to rethink the current paradigm (the current body of knowledge they think is the right one at their time) and consider the possibility of a paradigm shift (a new paradigm based on the new findings and discoveries).

And in my opinion, those serious scientific articles have not been published yet in those scientific journals for different reasons, but at least one of them could be because of a lack of the necessary strong and frequent collaboration between the scientific community in general and experienced projectors. I think there has been "some" collaboration, but maybe not enough.

Therefore, one key element in these types of situations is what they call "appeal to authority." Scientific prestigious journals do have enough "authority" among the scientific community, but anecdotal evidences do not.

We have talked extensively about this matter in the following link:

Pag. 8, starting from the top of the page or in Post #4:
(Thread: Whats your proof?)
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21011&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=70

Un saludo, qbeac.

[FACETIME- Dr. near-death: Greyson's heart-stopping studyPublished SEPTEMBER 9, 2004, in issue 0336 of the HookBY LAURA PARSONS ART@READTHEHOOK.COM]

Hi Ben K, you can also check this interview with Dr. Bruce Greyson about a similar experiment they are now doing in the operating rooms of the Hospital of the University of Virginia:

http://readthehook.com/stories/2004/09/08/facetimeDrNeardeathGreyson.html

FACETIME- Dr. near-death: Greyson's heart-stopping study

Published SEPTEMBER 9, 2004, in issue 0336 of the Hook

BY LAURA PARSONS ART@READTHEHOOK.COM

A woman hovers above her own lifeless body, detached and at peace, before moving through a dark tunnel toward a dazzling light.

Whether a believer or a skeptic, chances are you recognize the standard markers of a near-death experience. But in 1975, when Bruce Greyson was a newly minted psychiatrist, this was new terrain.

At the time, Greyson was working in UVA's emergency room with a psychiatric resident named Raymond Moody, who had just published the soon-to-be-runaway bestseller, Life after Life, in which Moody coined the now familiar term "near-death experience" (NDE).

Greyson, who was already exploring brain-mind anomalies, became fascinated by the countless letters Moody received from people relating to the surprisingly consistent reports of what clinical death survivors recalled about their flat-line time.

"They were astounded and often relieved to find out they were not alone," he remembers.

Almost three decades later, Greyson, 57, is still fascinated. This director of UVA's Division of Personality Studies began a new project earlier this year designed to verify reports of out-of-body NDEs. Greyson, in collaboration with UVA cardiologists, is conducting an investigation that focuses on patients receiving automatic heart defibrillators who must endure a brief cardiac arrest to ensure that the units are functioning.

Wearing a conservative yellow tie as he leans back in his chair, Greyson says there's nothing to report yet, but he smiles and mentions he's considering extending the two-year study.

"Bruce is a very careful, cautious researcher," says Dr. Michael Sabom, an Atlanta-based cardiologist who also studies near-death experiences.

Greyson points out some of the anesthetics used on the cardiac patients interfere with memory, so he rigged a computer to generate images visible only from the ceiling.

"If people can remember what's going on," Greyson says, "then that's very hard to explain."

Scientifically proving NDEs' occurrence, however, is not what most interests Greyson as a psychiatrist. He's excited by how near-death experiences change people's lives. According to Greyson, near-death survivors share no distinctive traits prior to their NDEs, but afterward they generally become more spiritual, more altruistic, and less materialistic.

Having pioneered a path-breaking study of suicide survivors who reported having NDEs, Greyson discovered that, unlike other failed suicides, his subjects were less likely to repeat their attempts. According to Greyson, "What they tell you is once you're not afraid of death, you're not afraid of life."

Unaware of any chemical capable of creating such a life-altering effect, Greyson suggests NDEs have important implications for psychiatry, noting, "We work very hard for a long time to make very small changes."

Has his research has affected his own outlook? "It's given me a different perspective on what's important in life," Greyson says. "It's also made me a lot less willing to dismiss crazy ideas out of hand."  

[Near Death Experience In Survivors of Cardiac Arrest: A Prospective Study in the Netherlands, Dr. Pim van Lommel (cardiologist), et al, THE LANCET • Vol 358 • December 15, 2001 , 2039-45.]

Hi Ben K, one of the reasons why we "believe" there must be some type of connection between the physical plane and the astral plane is because of what they call the "verifiable NDEs" or "veridical NDEs". Also, some prestigious scientists have started to investigate this topic using modern means (EEG study, etc.) and have already published several very interesting articles in prestigious scientific journals... so, that's the first step in the road and we think there are going to be many more.

Let me give you just one example:

Near Death Experience In Survivors of Cardiac Arrest: A Prospective Study in the Netherlands,
Dr. Pim van Lommel (cardiologist), et al, THE LANCET • Vol 358 • December 15, 2001 ,  2039-45.
http://www.thelancet.com/search/search.isa
http://profezie3m.altervista.org/archivio/TheLancet_NDE.htm

This is an example of a "verifiable NDE" from that article:

During the pilot phase in one of the hospitals, a coronary-care-unit nurse reported a veridical out-of-body experience of a resuscitated patient:

"During a night shift an ambulance brings in a 44-year-old cyanotic, comatose man into the coronary care unit. He had been found about an hour before in a meadow by passers-by. After admission, he receives artificial respiration without intubation, while heart massage and defibrillation are also applied. When we want to intubate the patient, he turns out to have dentures in his mouth. I remove these upper dentures and put them onto the 'crash car'. Meanwhile, we continue extensive CPR. After about an hour and a half the patient has sufficient heart rhythm and blood pressure, but he is still ventilated and intubated, and he is still comatose. He is transferred to the intensive care unit to continue the necessary artificial respiration.

Only after more than a week do I meet again with the patient, who is by now back on the cardiac ward. I distribute his medication. The moment he sees me he says: 'Oh, that nurse knows where my dentures are'. I am very surprised. Then he elucidates: 'Yes, you were there when I was brought into hospital and you took my dentures out of my mouth and put them onto that car, it had all these bottles on it and there was this sliding drawer underneath and there you put my teeth.' I was especially amazed because I remembered this happening while the man was in deep coma and in the process of CPR.

When I asked further, it appeared the man had seen himself lying in bed, that he had perceived from above how nurses and doctors had been busy with CPR. He was also able to describe correctly and in detail the small room in which he had been resuscitated as well as the appearance of those present like myself. At the time that he observed the situation he had been very much afraid that we would stop CPR and that he would die. And it is true that we had been very negative about the patient's prognosis due to his very poor medical condition when admitted.

The patient tells me that he desperately and unsuccessfully tried to make it clear to us that he was still alive and that we should continue CPR. He is deeply impressed by his experience and says he is no longer afraid of death. 4 weeks later he left hospital as a healthy man."
----------------------

For more examples of "verifiable NDEs", or "Veridical NDEs**" see this link:
**experiencer acquires verifiable information that they could not have obtained by any normal means

- The Division of Perceptual Studies (DOPS) is a unit of the Department of Psychiatric Medicine of the University of Virginia's Health System.
http://www.healthsystem.virginia.edu/internet/personalitystudies/case_types.cfm#OOB

Un saludo. qbeac.

[we need four "ifs":]

Hi Ben K and rest of participants,

In order to obtain scientific proof of these experiences we need four "ifs":

1) "If" there are some experienced projectors who are willing to collaborate with scientist in laboratory experiments according to all the control and security measures of the Scientific Method, and...

2) "If" there is a strong enough connection between the astral plane and the physical plane (not too much distortion, maybe a moderate distortion but not a high one), as to allow those experienced projectors to read two words correctly, and ...

3) "If" those positive results can be published in a prestigious scientific journal (Ex: Science, Nature, The Lancet, etc.). This point is VERY important, it will make the big difference, and ...

4) "If" the same experiment could be replicated by several other independent scientists...

... if thoses four "ifs" happen, "then" we will be able to obtain scientific proof for all humanity about the reality of these experiences.

We have started that process in Spain with an experienced projector. We are about to start doing some serious tests, and our intention is to go for it till the end of the road. The more experienced projectors who participate in this process, the sooner we will be able to obtain that proof for all humanity.

Similar things have happened through out the history of human kind. For instance, during many centuries (even thousands of years), humanity thought the Earth was the centre of the Universe, until Galileo came along with a small and rudimentary telescope and saw for the very first time a few small satellites (I think Jupiter's satellites) that did not circle the Earth... he told about it, encountered a lot of opposition based on the scientific paradigm that most people believed at the time, went through all the above process (the four "ifs" of his time), and finally his observations became "the new paradigm." A paradigm shift is not only possible, it is necessary.

Paradigm change, scientific revolution (wikipedia):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradigm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_revolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Structure_of_Scientific_Revolutions

So, it is going to be difficult, but it is NOT impossible. All we need is a lot of people working together towards one goal: to improve the future of humanity, to work together for a better future for every human being.

We encourage all of you to think about it and to help out, because it is worth the effort.

We have extensively talked about this issue at links:

- Whats Your Proof?
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21011

- Post #8, pag. 8. Comprehensive and complete explanation of the Agnostic Method:
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=180207#180207

- Method to verify if OBE are real or imaginary experiences
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=20907

- Can you move a physical object from the astral plane?
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21202

Un saludo, qbeac.

P.D. By the way, one of our biggest doubts right now is if it is possible to obtain a good enough connection between the astral and the physical planes, without too much distortion, so that the two words can be read correctly... I believe that's what you call the RTZ (Real Time Zone)...

Do you think it is possible to obtain that good connection? Is there any thing you could do or should do to improve that connection? Thanks.

[- Whats Your Proof?]

Hi Beyonder and the rest of people, as some of you already know, in a Spanish Science forum we have developed a method to try to verify if these experiences are real or imaginary, and we believe this method is a valid one in order to obtain that verification.

In Spain we have recently started to work with an experienced projector who believes he can read them... at least he is going to give it a try. After many delays due to different circumstances external to the experiment itself, we are now (16-dic-05) almost ready to start doing some serious testing. So, we'll see how things unfold in the months to come.

We encourage all of you to do similar tests, either all by yourselves at home, or with the help of your friends or family members. And if anybody feels ready enough to read the correct words of the Agnostic Method, we will be glad to engage into further talks with you in order to do an experiment in a controlled environment (lab, etc.)... and if everything goes well, we would love to be able to publish it in a scientific journal.

You'll find lots more information about this experiment in the following links:

- Whats Your Proof?
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21011

- Method to verify if OBE are real or imaginary experiences
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=20907

The following one is somewhat related to the above and it is also interesting:

- Can you move a physical object from the astral plane?
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21202

Un saludo, qbeac.

P.S. This is the same information in the original Spanish Science forum:

- Post #301 y #302. pag. 31. Instrucciones del Método Agnostic de verificación astral.
http://www.100cia.com/opinion/foros/showthread.php?p=38484#post38484

[- Whats Your Proof?]

So I have been messing around with OBE meditations for almost a year now. I have gotten the vibrations very easily, infact I got vibrations even before I knew what they were, or even what an AP was. I am an extremely open minded person, but still somewhat skeptical. Believe me, nothing would make me happier than to know that APing is possible, and I think it is, but I would still like to hear your opinions and arguments. The reason I am still questioning its existence is because I have never had one before, and am starting to give up on it. Any info/advice would be most appreciated.
Thanks Ya'll

Hi lo_ri_der, in a Spanish Science forum we have developed a method to verify if these experiences are real or imaginary experiences. You'll find this information in the following links:

- Whats Your Proof?
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21011

- Method to verify if OBE are real or imaginary experiences
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=20907

The following one is somewhat related to the above and it is also interesting:

- Can you move a physical object from the astral plane?
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21202

Un saludo, qbeac.

P.S. The same information in the original Spanish Science forum:

- Post #301 y #302. pag. 31. Instrucciones del Método Agnostic de verificación astral.
http://www.100cia.com/opinion/foros/showthread.php?p=38484#post38484

[- Post #4, pag. 1. INSTRUCTIONS OF THE AGNOSTIC METHOD]

Hi everybody, some people have asked us several questions about how to perform the experiment with the Agnostic Method. For instance: how and where they should place the words written on the paper, etc. So, these are some clarifications about how to do the experiment:

The instructions in English of how to do the Agnostic Method experiment are in the following link:

- Post #4, pag. 1. INSTRUCTIONS OF THE AGNOSTIC METHOD
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=20907

Also here: - Whats Your Proof?
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21011

But those are only partial instructions, since we have not been able to translate everything to English yet. The whole thing in Spanish is in this link:

- Post #301 y #302. pag. 31. Instrucciones del Método Agnostic de verificación astral.
http://www.100cia.com/opinion/foros/showthread.php?p=38484#post38484

So, let me add a few things about the experiment:

Our idea is that the experiment could be performed in three different levels:

Level 1: Personal level. A single person could try the Agnostic Method all by itself at home. You would only need the help of a friend of yours (or family member) to choose the words from the dictionary and write them on a piece of paper. Your friend would give you the papers inside a folder or something, so that you cannot see the words. You could place the paper in any appropriate place inside your room or near by and without looking at the words during the process. Of course you would have to place the paper somewhere totally outside of your physical visual reach (Ex: on top of a tall piece of furniture, or on top of a book shelve, in a near by room, or something like that).

Level 2: For small groups of people. Ex: The projector could do the experiment with the help of a few friends. The friend would choose the words and place the words in his/her own house. And the projector will have to "travel" to the house of his/her friend to try to read the words written in the paper. The next morning you talk to each other to verify if the words coincide or not. The person who controls the projector we call it "the controller", and it could be a friend of yours, or anybody else who would be willing to do the job.

For instance, we (a small group of scientists from the Spanish forum 100cia.com) are now controlling an experienced projector who is trying to read the words. This projector is trying to go from his house to the house of one of us. In case he gets positive results, we may change the controller a couple of times just to make sure there were not any errors in the process (mistakes, fraud, jokes, etc.).

Level 3: Experiments performed in a controlled environment, in a laboratory, and following all the guarantees of the Scientific Method. This is the final step and the hardest one to pass for any projector. Although for any real projector, it would be as easy to succeed with Level 1, 2 or 3 experiments. We would be willing to test in the lab any projectors who can pass the preliminary stages (Levels 1 and 2).

Therefore, our intention is to go from very low and loose security measures (Level 1), to give every projector the opportunity to practice in a very relaxed and comfortable manner (at home, with his/her own friends, etc.), to the opposite end: very high and tight security measures in a laboratory (Level 3), and to go from one extreme to the other in a very gradual way.

We are willing to adjust every single experiment to the circumstances and particularities of any projector, since we are very much aware that this is an experiment with "human beings", and each person may need a different environment to feel comfortable. Also, we believe natural phenomenon does not need to adapt to Science, on the contrary, it is Science the one that should try to adapt to natural phenomenon.

Well, that's a brief summary of all the things we have been saying in the Spanish forum. If you have any questions, please, feel free to ask.

Un saludo, qbeac.

[- Post #4, pag. 1. INSTRUCTIONS OF THE AGNOSTIC METHOD]

Hi everybody, some people have asked us several questions about how to perform the experiment with the Agnostic Method. For instance: how and where they should place the words written on the paper, etc. So, these are some clarifications about how to do the experiment:

The instructions in English of how to do the Agnostic Method experiment are in the following link:

- Post #4, pag. 1. INSTRUCTIONS OF THE AGNOSTIC METHOD
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=20907

Also here: - Whats Your Proof?
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21011

But those are only partial instructions, since we have not been able to translate everything to English yet. The whole thing in Spanish is in this link:

- Post #301 y #302. pag. 31. Instrucciones del Método Agnostic de verificación astral.
http://www.100cia.com/opinion/foros/showthread.php?p=38484#post38484

So, let me add a few things about the experiment:

Our idea is that the experiment could be performed in three different levels:

Level 1: Personal level. A single person could try the Agnostic Method all by itself at home. You would only need the help of a friend of yours (or family member) to choose the words from the dictionary and write them on a piece of paper. Your friend would give you the papers inside a folder or something, so that you cannot see the words. You could place the paper in any appropriate place inside your room or near by and without looking at the words during the process. Of course you would have to place the paper somewhere totally outside of your physical visual reach (Ex: on top of a tall piece of furniture, or on top of a book shelve, in a near by room, or something like that).

Level 2: For small groups of people. Ex: The projector could do the experiment with the help of a few friends. The friend would choose the words and place the words in his/her own house. And the projector will have to "travel" to the house of his/her friend to try to read the words written in the paper. The next morning you talk to each other to verify if the words coincide or not. The person who controls the projector we call it "the controller", and it could be a friend of yours, or anybody else who would be willing to do the job.

For instance, we (a small group of scientists from the Spanish forum 100cia.com) are now controlling an experienced projector who is trying to read the words. This projector is trying to go from his house to the house of one of us. In case he gets positive results, we may change the controller a couple of times just to make sure there were not any errors in the process (mistakes, fraud, jokes, etc.).

Level 3: Experiments performed in a controlled environment, in a laboratory, and following all the guarantees of the Scientific Method. This is the final step and the hardest one to pass for any projector. Although for any real projector, it would be as easy to succeed with Level 1, 2 or 3 experiments. We would be willing to test in the lab any projectors who can pass the preliminary stages (Levels 1 and 2).

Therefore, our intention is to go from very low and loose security measures (Level 1), to give every projector the opportunity to practice in a very relaxed and comfortable manner (at home, with his/her own friends, etc.), to the opposite end: very high and tight security measures in a laboratory (Level 3), and to go from one extreme to the other in a very gradual way.

We are willing to adjust every single experiment to the circumstances and particularities of any projector, since we are very much aware that this is an experiment with "human beings", and each person may need a different environment to feel comfortable. Also, we believe natural phenomenon does not need to adapt to Science, on the contrary, it is Science the one that should try to adapt to natural phenomenon.

Well, that's a brief summary of all the things we have been saying in the Spanish forum. If you have any questions, please, feel free to ask.

Un saludo, qbeac.

[In the year 2005, how is it possible that these types of studies have not appeared yet in prestigious scientific journals such as Nature, Science, The Lancet, etc.?]

qbeac, I go up to the object and pick it up as though im picking it up normaly... So no, somthing else would not move unless i actuly touch it....

Hi AstralBorn, thanks again for your clarification, I am really interested in this subject, I believe it is worth discussing about it.

Hi everybody, I would recommend everybody to take a close look at the document skropenfield indicated in pag. 3, Post  #1 of this thread, which I include bellow. But before that, I would like to ask all of you one question:

In the year 2005, how is it possible that these types of studies have not appeared yet in prestigious scientific journals such as Nature, Science, The Lancet, etc.?

- List of scientific journals: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scientific_journals#General_science

This is the document skropenfield indicated in pag. 3, Post  #1 of this thread (I have only included here its abstract, the complete document is quite longer):

Some kind of research http://www.fas.org/sgp/eprint/teleport.pdf  

Teleportation Physics Study
Eric W. Davis
Warp Drive Metrics
4849 San Rafael Ave.
Las Vegas, NV 89120
August 2004
Special Report

APPROVED FOR PUBLIC RELEASE; DISTRIBUTION UNLIMITED.

AIR FORCE RESEARCH LABORATORY
AIR FORCE MATERIEL COMMAND
EDWARDS AIR FORCE BASE CA 93524-7048

14. ABSTRACT

This study was tasked with the purpose of collecting information describing the teleportation of material objects, providing a description of teleportation as it occurs in physics, its theoretical and experimental status, and a projection of potential applications. The study also consisted of a search for teleportation phenomena occurring naturally or under laboratory conditions that can be assembled into a model describing the conditions required to accomplish the transfer of objects. This included a review and documentation of quantum teleportation, its theoretical basis, technological development, and its potential applications. The characteristics of teleportation were defined and physical theories were evaluated in terms of their ability to completely describe the phenomena. Contemporary physics, as well as theories that presently challenge the current physics paradigm were investigated. The author identified and proposed two unique physics models for teleportation that are based on the manipulation of either the general relativistic spacetime metric or the spacetime vacuum electromagnetic (zero-point fluctuations) parameters. Naturally occurring anomalous teleportation phenomena that were previously studied by the United States and foreign governments were also documented in the study and are reviewed in the report. The author proposes an additional model for teleportation that is based on a combination of the experimental results from the previous government studies and advanced physics concepts. Numerous recommendations outlining proposals for further theoretical and experimental studies are given in the report. The report also includes an extensive  teleportation bibliography.

[THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR CLARIFICATION!!!!!!,]

Well, AstralBorn, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR CLARIFICATION!!!!!!, and I am sorry too if this post seems rude, but I am just thankful to you for clarifying that little bitty doubt I had before.... just kidding, ok?  

Now then, let me ask you something else: when you move the physical object, can you differentiate among several objects which are close by, or not? For instance, imagine you want to move a particular pen (a red pen), but there are two other pens by its side only a few centimetres apart, let's say 5 cm. apart (Ex: a blue pen and a green pen). My question is this one:

Can you selectively move only the red pen? Or when you try to move the red pen the other two pens will also move because they are somehow affected by the same force you are applying to move the red one?

THANKS AGAIN!!!!!! (Note: just kidding again    ). qbeac.

[AstralBorn]

Hi AstralBorn, do you mean that you can move a "physical object" while you are having an OBE? Is that what you mean? For instance, a regular pen, if someone of us were awake and conscious, and we were looking at that pen, will we see how it "mysteriously" moves all by itself without any thing apparently touching it (no wind, no magnets, no nothing)?

[What the BLEEP Do We Know!?]

Hi everybody, as an aside, I would like to inform you all that the following is a good movie which talks about topics related to some of the things we have been talking about in this thread and in this forum in general:

What the BLEEP Do We Know!?
http://www.whatthebleep.com/
Groups: http://www.noetic.org/community/groups.cfm

SYNOPSIS

WHAT THE BLEEP DO WE KNOW?! is a new type of film. It is part documentary, part story, and part elaborate and inspiring visual effects and animations. The protagonist, Amanda, played by Marlee Matlin, finds herself in a fantastic Alice in Wonderland experience when her daily, uninspired life literally begins to unravel, revealing the uncertain world of the quantum field hidden behind what we consider to be our normal, waking reality.

She is literally plunged into a swirl of chaotic occurrences, while the characters she encounters on this odyssey reveal the deeper, hidden knowledge she doesn't even realize she has asked for. Like every hero, Amanda is thrown into crisis, questioning the fundamental premises of her life – that the reality she has believed in about how men are, how relationships with others should be, and how her emotions are affecting her work isn't reality at all! ... (it continues)

-----------------------

I recommend it to anyone. Enjoy it!!!

Un abrazo, qbeac.

[rimme]

Hi rimme, Draege, thank you both for your comments, because in both cases it makes sense what you say. As I see it, we are all learning from each others. And thanks also to AstralBorn.

Now then, rimme and/or AstralBorn, please, let me ask you something:

How far or how close from the object do you have to be in order to be able to move it? Does physical distance has any influence on telekinesis or not? Can you move an object which is 1 metre away from you? Or 2, 3, 100 metres away...?

How easy or difficult it is to move it? In a scale from 1 to 4 (1: very easy, 2: normal, 3: difficult, 4: extremely difficult), how easy or difficult would you say it is to move it?

Is telekinesis something that anybody can learn how to do it (like, for instance, astral projection), or you just have to have that special gift to be able to do it?

Thanks. qbeac.

Hi rimme, that's quite impressive, at least for me . Please, let me ask you something else: can you also have controlled OBEs? Have you tried already to move a physical object from the astral plane? Thanks. qbeac.

Moving an object in the physical world around while you are in the Astral Planes is extreamly simple...
It's just like going through a wall... If you think about it to much you will find it hard to get through, If you believe your hand wont just go through the object strong enough you will find it wont and you can move it...

Hi AstralBorn, are you sure it is so simple? I've heard it is not so easy. Have you ever tried it? Were you able to move the physical object from the astral plane?

[(SP) Muldoon, Sylvan - Proyeccion Astral]

Hi everybody, I have found two chapters from an Astral Projection book in which the author talks about moving physical objects from the astral plane. The problem is that I have the book in Spanish. This is the title of the book and the specific chapters:

(SP) Muldoon, Sylvan - Proyeccion Astral

Chapter 9
Chapter 14

Please, does anybody know how to find the same book in English (or other similar books about this subject)?

Thanks. qbeac.

so could i bring a grill from the astral plane if i just imagined it?

note: a grill is a platinum cover for your teeth, usually covered in diamonds or other gems. most rap superstars have them such as: Lil Jon, Paul wall, mike Jones, Nelly, and both of the Yin Yang Twins.

Very clever, dmoney, we could extend your idea to gold ingots  If somebody finds the way to do it, please, let us know.

[12. Paul's NDE. Two vietnam soldiers hit by gun fire at the same time.]

Thx for the NDE-report qbeac! Very interesting!

You are welcome, Tom. These are some other group NDE examples:

12.  Paul's NDE. Two vietnam soldiers hit by gun fire at the same time.
http://www.nderf.org/paul's.htm

Brief excerpt:

"I turned around and went back towards where he lay moaning, screaming for a medic the entire time.  I had crossed the fifty feet between us in what seemed like seconds when I was shot down by machine gun fire.   Pain ripped through my legs and I fell forward.  

The next thing I knew I was viewing the scene from about sixteen feet above my body. I saw that my body had been hit several times in the right leg and once in the left. I was convinced that I was going to bleed to death and felt tremendous sorrow that I'd never see my wife and our unborn baby.   My sadness was joined by a growing  confusion and curiosity.  So, this is death? I thought. No pain! No fear! How weird, I don't feel any different. I still can think.

I stared at my body and wondered what was coming next. My buddy, Pete was lying next to my body. I was shocked to see a mist leave from his head, which instantly turned into an exact duplicate of his body. I noticed that his spirit or new body was whole and glowed a bit. (His physical body below was missing his hand and part of his forearm due to being hit by the same sniper.)  Pete looked dazed and I called to him.  He immediately flew to join me and we discussed what was going to happen from that point.  

We noticed that a young black medic had discovered our bodies. First he checked Pete and then me. He began working on my body and Pete commented that he guessed that meant he was dead, but that I probably still had a chance. He reached out and shook my hand and said, "I want to thank you for being a good friend and for trying to save my life.  I don't know why, but I just get this sense that I am not staying here.  I am going someplace I've been before.   It feels like home.  

I know this sounds crazy, but I think it's not your time to go yet.  I think I'll try to say goodbye to my mom now, but you go on and have a groovy life and if your kid is a boy name him after me. OK?" I said, "You got it Pete!" I reached over to give him a pat on the back, but he vanished in a blink of light.  I watched several soldiers below help carry me  away from the scene while the medic continued to work on me."

Jake's NDE: a group of fire fighters trapped in the same fire.
May, James, and Rashad: three friends hit by lightning at the same time.
http://www.near-death.com/group.html

Tom and everybody, I am going to open a new thread to talk about the possibility of moving physical objects from the astral plane. It is based on the account of an experienced projector, Jerry Groos, who says he can do it. This is the link:

Can you move a physical object from the astral plane?
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=181019#181019

Un saludo, qbeac.

[Jerry Gross,]

Hello everybody, perhaps some of you may have heard of Jerry Gross, an experienced projector who teaches people how to project. I've read he is able to move a physical object from the astral plane.

Jerry's interview: http://www.near-death.com/gross.html
Jerry's HOME site: http://hometown.aol.com/rgross6162/

Brief excerpt from Jerry Gross' interview:

"In my workshops, I teach you to astral project by having you sit in a chair and go out and turn around and look at yourself. If you are lying in bed, you can rise up, turn around and look at yourself lying on the bed. You'll have proof enough when you are able to look at your physical body, from outside of it. I've been asked to prove this many times, in radio shows, and at the Whole Life Expo at the Los Angeles Convention Center where I traveled astrally from St. Paul, Minnesota to Los Angeles and moved a box they had set up on the stage for me. Once you learn how to do this you'll have proved this to yourself, and that's why I call my little group, Search and Prove. I want you to prove this to yourself for that's the ultimate proof. Don't take my word for it, prove it to yourself."
-----------------------

Please, have any of you ever tried to move a physical object from the astral plane? Were you able to move it?

This is a very simple test you could do: Take an empty Coca-Cola can or bottle (typical aluminium can, 11 cm. tall by 6.5 cm diameter) and put it on a flat and smooth table. Those cans weight very little (only a few grams), and so, they are very easy to move from the physical plane, just give them a slight touch or blow and they'll start rolling.

You could perhaps try to push the can just enough to make it roll and fall down from the table, or push it so that it goes over a very small bump on the table (a tiny grain, or a thin thread, or something like that). That way, the can will not be able to roll back, and later on, when you wake up, you'll be able to check out if it really moved or not.

Do you think you could move the Coca-Cola can just a little bit from the astral plane?

Thanks. qbeac.

[NDE of May, James and Rashad, three friends with three different religions united in the same NDE.]

Hi Abraham, Ben K, Lente, Adun, MindFreak and everybody else:

The following is an excerpt from the NDE of May, James and Rashad, three friends with three different religions united in the same NDE.

Group NDE Example #2
http://www.near-death.com/group.html

The following group NDE appears in the International Association for Near-Death Studies publication Vital Signs (Volume XIX, No. 3, 2000) and is described in a greater way in Eulitt's book, Fireweaver, published by Xlibris.

During the fall of 1971, when I was 22 years old, I shared a near-death experience with my cousin, James, and his best friend, Rashad, who was from India. Both young men were on a break from school and were staying with my family on our farm. One afternoon the three of us went to the cornfield to cut fodder. To get to the field we had to go through a metal gate, and we took turns climbing down to open and shut it. By late afternoon a storm started brewing in the west, and we decided to quit for the day. It was James' turn to open the gate, and as he did so, he reached up for my arm to climb back up onto the wagon. I was leaning the wrong way, and his weight pulled me toward him. Rashad grabbed my other arm to steady me, and we were in just this position when the lightening hit us.

I saw the lightning sparkle along the top of the gate. The next thing we knew, we were in a large room or hall made of dark stone. The ceiling was so high and the gloom was so thick we couldn't see the top. There were no furnishings or wall hangings, just cold, black stone all around. I knew I should be afraid, but I just felt peaceful, floating along there in the gloom with my two friends in the great, dark hall. The stately walls of this place loomed above us and seemed to radiate both great power and also great masculinity. I remember thinking it would have suited King Arthur. It was at that point that I realized that the three of us were united in thought and body. Images of Arthur came to me from James and Rashad. James saw only a cosmic version of the king. Rashad seemed to [be] envisioning himself in the time of Arthur. As we all became conscious of each other's thoughts, I suddenly knew James and Rashad better than I have ever known anyone else.

We realized there was light coming into the chamber from an archway at one end. It was more than just light. It was a golden, embracing warmth. It gave off a feeling of peace and contentment more intense than anything we had ever felt. We were drawn toward it. We weren't talking, but we were communicating with each other on some other level, seeing through each other's eyes. As we came to the archway and passed through, we entered a beautiful valley.

There were meadows and tree-lined hills that led to tall mountains in the distance. Everything glistened with golden sparks of light.

We saw that the sparkling lights were tiny, transparent bubbles that drifted in the air and sparkled on the grass. We realized that each tiny sparkle was a soul. To me, the valley appeared to be Heaven, but at the same time I knew that James and Rashad were seeing it differently. James saw it as the Gulf of Souls. Rashad saw it as Nirvana, and somehow we knew all this without speaking. The light began gathering at the far end of the valley, and slowly, out of the mist, a pure white being began to materialize. I saw an angel with a strong, bright face, but not like you'd usually imagine. She was closer to a strong, Viking Valkyrie. I knew she was the special angel that watches over the women of my family, and I perceived her name to be Hellena. James saw this same being as his late father, a career Naval officer, in a white dress uniform. Rashad perceived the being to be the Enlightened One, or Buddha.

The being spoke first to Rashad and welcomed him. He said that Rashad's time on earth was done. He was worthy now of Nirvana. Rashad asked why James and I were there and was told that we were part of the reason why he was worthy of Nirvana. His two great friends loved him so much that they had willingly accompanied him on his last journey. At the same time, however, James received a different message. He had been worried about what his father would think about his anti-war protest activities, and his father told him he was proud of him for standing up for what he believed. He knew he was not a coward because a coward would not have made this journey with Rashad. I received yet another message in which Hellena told me she was glad I had remembered the example of strength, honesty, wisdom, and loyalty taught to me by my family.

We spent what seemed like an eternity in this place as we talked to our separate, yet joined, entities. They said they appeared to us in this way because back in the real world we were physically joined when the lightning struck us. They said it also symbolized the joining of all religions and doctrines. They said I would live to see a new age of tolerance, that the souls and hearts of humanity would be joined as the three of us were.

The guides taught us that doctrine and creed and race meant nothing. No matter what we believed we were all children joined under one God, and that the only rule was God's true law - do unto others as you would have them do unto you. We should treat all people as if they were a part of our soul because they were. All living things in the universe were connected to one another. They said that soon humanity would mature enough to assume a higher place in the universal scheme of things, but until then we must learn acceptance and tolerance and love for each other. They said there would come a new age when people would not be able to endure seeing others homeless and hungry. We would realize that only by helping each other could we truly help ourselves... (it continues)

Hi Abraham, Ben K, Lente, Adun,

In my opinion, it is indeed possible to obtain and to provide proof. There are a number of different ways in which it could be done. For instance, take a look at Post #8, pag. 8 of this thread to see one of them (not the only one):

- Explanation of one of the several possible ways to obtain proof:
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=180207#180207

The question now is: Should we or should we not provide global proof to the scientific community?

I personally think we should (I believe it could benefit all humanity), but some people think other wise for other reasons they think are also good reasons, and maybe we all should debate upon this issue and try to find out what is the best option. We are talking about it at link (see Post #12):

http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewtopic.php?p=9299&sid=dfb41431f4365f58ebdadc435d78c991#9299

Un saludo. qbeac.

[To provide proof or not to provide it? That is the question!]

Hello people, there is a participant in the astraldynamics forum, called pmlonline, who says it is possible to provide global proof of OBEs to the scientific community, but nevertheless, it is not wise to provide it due to "karmic" reasons (this is a summary, he has given a longer explanation about it).

To tell you the truth, it was very surprising to me to hear such an argument based on karmic reasons. So far, I have been very much in favour of providing proof. In Spain we have designed a simple method that could provide it (I have explained it in this thread, and it is not the only method that could be used), and we really believe it could be done. We also believe it is important to provide global proof, because that way, many people in the world will realize these experiences are real (I already think they are) and will also be able to benefit from them. But now I am wondering whether what pmlonline says is correct or not.

The question has shifted from: "Is it possible to provide proof?" To, "should we provide proof or not?"

As Shakespeare would say:

To provide proof or not to provide it? That is the question!

Please, what do you think? This is the link (starting at pag. 2, Post #13):
http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewtopic.php?t=927&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

Chao. qbeac.

Hello everybody, in relation to the issue of trying to obtain scientific proof, I would like to pose a question for everybody. So far, it seems there are several distinct opinions, for instance:

1- Some people did not know it was possible to obtain scientific proof.

2- Some people think obtaining scientific proof is possible, but it is hard, therefore, it is not worth the effort.

3- Some people think obtaining scientific proof is hard, but it is possible and it is also import to do it for the benefit of human kind, therefore, it is worth the effort.

4- Some people think that even if it is possible to obtain scientific proof, it should not be done due to karmic reasons.

The following is an example of an opinion based on karmic reason (Post #13 & #15, pag. 2, by pmlonline):
http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewtopic.php?t=927&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

Please, what do you think? My opinion is number 3, as I have tried to explain in this thread. Anybody thinks the same way, or perhaps has a different opinion than the ones above?

Thanks. qbeac.