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I see where you guys come from. so ill approach from there. The fear you feel when attemting to obe can be considerable. The only thing to get me past this was reading so many other stories about it being done. Those people are still with us (most of them) so they are either lying to us or they were not harmed while in obe. Now since i know forst hand it can be done i know the later is true.
One thing that bothered me when in very deep was i could feel that i was barely breathing. Upon further investigation i realized that its a natural occurance while in obe practice. This the types of fear you refer to?

I love this planet and it is beautiful. These are not things that are up for interpretation unless you disbelieve in god. And trust me he exists.

Thanks rob. Im sort of stunned here really.
Here is just one more fact that good and evil exist. In Genesis adam and eve ate from a tree. The tree was what? It was the tree of knowledge OF GOOD AND EVIL. God did not want us to have to worry about balance in life. He prefered that we not know.
You see Lucifer is mad at all of us. He hates the fact that we are eternal (as angels and demons are) and the fact that we in the end would end up just like him (angelic and live forever with god) as he did was just to much. Why do you think that we have the ten commandments and the seven deadly sins? Because these are the temptations. These are literally the demon that tempt us every day of our lives. The original sin. Now look at our world and if you cant tell me who's in control than you have some serious issues.
God means for us to live in this world not OF this world. We are truly not of this earth. It is as i have said but one of many of the lords mansions.   

What is fear? Fear is lack of knowledge. Its what is unknown.
Do you ever feel the "rush" you get from fear? The adrenalin. The chemical change that occurs is obvious. But only when you are sensitive to spirit do you begin to realize this is when your senses are heightened. Including our sixth sense.
Take control of this just as you would any other form of energy. Once you realize and accept that we are all going to die no matter what than what is left to fear? Nothing.
Ever been in a car wreck? ever notice that in serious wrecks "that you walk away from" that things seem to be moving in slow motion?  Thats the fear and the adrenalin. If you can harness just that one ability just that one thing it would change your life totally. Imagine being in a fist fight or a meeting that is really important but also makes for some real tension. If you could use that same "ability"you did while in the accident it would be of HUGE advantage. Just remember that any experiance that you have had in your life can be actively recreated at will. So the slow motion is not such a "amazing ability" at all.

The choice of drug makes a huge differance here. If its natural (from or of this earth) or man made.
Literally some drugs do through off you assemblage point and thus give you a taste of what can come. But i do agree it must be done "naturally" to have future affect. Drugs are only a window.
The shaman used them in the past to give humans an idea of what altered conciousness and dreaming is all about. But in the end there were many addicts as a product of. Drugs to the shaman were considered to be allies.

Balance is the key. Jeesh dont any of you listen.? Ok some of you do so dont smite me...lol
Really seriously in ALL HONOSTY. There is a god and a devil. There is good and evil. Dont any of you have experiance in dreaming at all? Have none of you ever met a demon? How do they look lol they look like us (or whatever they want) but normally just like us. Come on open your eyes and your minds and your hearts. All the bibles in existence are not lying.....All the religions of the world are not wrong. See for Jeaash im hanging out at an astral forum and none of you can say you have net a demon or a angel? What the heck you been doing? Are you just all talk? There is no REAL dreamer among you? 

The American government is totally 100% corrupt, the congress is 100% corrupt. A revolution would be healthy at this time

Only if a few million more people fealt like you and i do.                                                                                                                                                                   So in reality what your saying is that even people on strike fit this category?  This is off topic, But did you ever notice that war protesters are always considered to be against our soldiers?  Thats such bovine excrement. War protesters (most of them) are against what our broken butt government is doing. Not our soldiers that are in harms way.
But every time it gets twisted too look like they are protesting the soldiers. How much b.s is that? 

Do it yourself. After all its just a neg. Heck they cannot even stand to be around prayer and positive thoughts of god. White light makes them crazy too. Ummm but the best thing you can do is find what its grasping too. Speak to this little beasty in your dream and find out why its here. Than send that bad boy away. They really are quite whimpy as long as whatever you are doing wrong you take care of. So anything you feel guilty about?  thats probably it. When did it first show up? Any habits you need to change? sex? smoking? materialism? Just asking im not saying its one of these but its usually a very related problem that the neg grasps on to your energy with. Find out why its there and get rid of it you can do this.  

I agree. If you live on a game system or computer of course its going to affect you. It leaves no time for good meditation which does help dreaming. The time you could be solitary is spent gaming. But its no differant than a television addict.
Its all about the here and now. If you are not living in the moment than you are not helping yourself to dream better. The trance state you reach while gameing is not a good one. Its like opening your mind for the influence of the game to flow in. But dont get me wrong i love to game on pc (dawn of war addict) . I just make sure i leave time for meditation and for real life.
I also agree that the trance state you achieve while gameing can be most interesting.   

I think its easy to do both because they are one and the same thing. With the exception that we are out of body already in a lucid dream and the energy that we waste while trying to achieve obe could be better used to stay astral longer and to be clearer in dreams.
If you insist on calliing them two seperate things than start off by wakeing in a dream it is much easier to grasp. After that you have no need to project because you already are. 

When you have an obe you take your energy body with you. when you lucid dream you dont but you can bring it to you or go back and retrieve it. But why? you can accomplish and do the same exact things in both. And in fact both are just sending your concious self to a differant place is all. Displaceing the assemblage point for you shamans out there. Ok so there not identical but it got your attention right? lol
Really there is no need to project other than to waste energy. Two of the greatest mystics of our time would agree with me 100% Mr Carlos Castaneda, and Robert Moss, ive learned more from these twos books than almost anywhere else. And as i said they agree leaving in your energy body is just a waste of energy and to much work.
If you insist on obeing do it while your awake now thats an accomplishment.     

http://lilacsky.proboards39.com/index.cgi?board=dreams&action=display&thread=1147809260

There you go. Enjoy.

Demons and hell are part of the mind yes. In return for being part of our minds they exist. Just as this world exists through our beliefs and the energies that we can see and feel.
It makes perfect sense that lucifer would try to prevent spiritual progress. It matters very little if humans realize spirit to satan. In fact it makes his job easier. You have one but never spend time in life to aknowledge it. So you have a stagnant spirit and are filled with the sins of this plane. Gluttony,lust, greed, materilaism, you name it. Yes the united states is very good at being sinners with little regard to there spirit and growing up under a "lost" government that only makes gains for every soul satan recieves. Our earth is a beuatiful place but its also full of lucifers minions. It is but one of gods mansions that we live in but we should not be so grounded that all we see is the gifts the world offers and not spirit.
If you are a dreamer the lower states can be reached by leaving (obe) through the lower chakra. And also by just living as most people do it is natural to not even realize we are but a step away from hell. In return though we are but a step from astral or the higher planes as well.
For me to say this has quite a bit of meaning really. Because im no christian by any stretch of the imagination, yet i know that god and jesus are here for all of us.
Dont be fooled just because you dont see demons. They are here and some are physically here. They thrive and become more powerful by the sins of man.   Men can also be vessels for the demonic and the angelic. But again satan works very subtly he does not need you to be a mass murderer he just needs you to sin enough that you are his. 
For more information on the higher and lower planes and demons read up on the tree of life, the tree of knowledge, and solomons writings. 

Its funny that christians find it so easy to celebrate life. But death (not evil) which we must all face in fear (mainly because of christianity by the way) is ignored. Easter on the other hand is a celebration of the reserection for christians. It may have some pagan tradition mixed in but in the end its for the christians.
Halloween actually is to if we could just put an end to the linear thinking of the church they would not have to live in so much fear of death. Ive tried many times to join christian forums but with little luck. No matter how polite and easy going i try to be with explaining, it seems there just to brainwashed. Its a pity that through christianity all but them are WRONG.

Demons are as real as angels, jesus, and god.  The lower plains that you travel while dreaming will verify this fact. Lucifer has many demons and in return his demons have legions that follow. If you believe in angels and god than certainly you can see the fine balance of good and evil that exists everywhere you look. The lower vibrational states are some of the easiest to reach for U.S citizens(and most of the world really). Hmmm wonder why? 

First off eqaul thoughts lets try and look at this as helping not being a know it all. Because trust me you dont know it all. There is a box and if you dont know what i mean go back to school. or at least dont be so rude until you have a clue.
The box that i refer to is the one most of you live in day to day. Its the robot mode that most of the world lives in all the time with little or no clue.
Second the only differance between ld and obe is that with obe you wake up as you are leaving your body with lucid dreaming you wake up already out. The only differance that mystics and science has come up with is that its possible that ld is mearly an projection of your concious self where as with obe it is a projection of you concious self with full energy body attached. Either way they are no differant as far as what can be done and prctices to get better are the same if you ld or obe. Than might as well finish this off with remote viewing. which is projectiing your concious with focus and enough control to go where you please. This is sometimes seen as a window or with scrying also.
Please do explain the major differances by the way? thank you.
You realize it is very common to have a "dream in a dream" to wake up in obe or ld and have another while dreaming is VERY common. It also coincides with passing the second gate of dreaming when you do this.

Lucid dreaming and astral projection are one and the same. If you wake up in a dream out of body or if you conciously leave your body. The only differance is the huge amounts of wasted energy during concious obe that could be avoided and used for other things like a longer stay or better control. Or even to use the energy to see if you are in a real dream or a made up scenario. either way we are trying to accomplish the same things. Two dreamers that i respect very much would agree Castaneda and Moss.
         We are the people that see from outside the box. So PLEASE lets not be like all those "others" and argue over such petty things. Even if ld and obe are differant (there not) we need to be the ones to find what they are and HELP each other.
     

Pretty cool. Im actaully surprised we cannot bend light yet. Seems like an easy one compared to what we have accomplished. Interesting and yet scary to thing of a home intruder with something like this.

Earth is what we make of it. But hell and heaven are close, Very close. Remember my friend in the later ages of this planet the believers are all that stand between humanity and hell. He lives amongst us but that does not mean we need to make the sins of this planet ours. we only live in this many of the lords mansions for awhile. Look at the earth as being the "womb" for our soul. We can choose to stray with the flock or we can be the black sheep and tread our on path and destination.   
Lucifer wants the large majority and he does a good job of it.

Silver there is a link i posted earlier in this thread that will help you so much if you really want too see auras.

Sorry equal its been a very long week for me. Although i would love to be i would never pretend to be some master. The first level of heel by the way is sort of what you would expect. Simple sinners go there. It would be called purgatory and many other things depending on religion and history.

Actually yes. Ive been on the first level of hell quite a few times. You more than likely have as well while dreaming. To bad with an attitude like yours your never going to remember the trip. Please make sure you know the facts before you speak. Im the firthest thing from a noob your going to meet. Just because someone does not have alot of posts here does not at all mean there a noob. So please as i said watch what your saying.
Religion does not bother Jesus in the least. at least with religion we have a slight chance of saveing some of the fools that live here. Most people will not even except what i do and am so like i said they have religion. No matter how far from the truth it may be people get a chance to feel a side of there spiritual self. What does bother Jesus is the profit makeing (above and beyond just makeing a living) that religion has produced. But with all do respect in the end of times religous leaders and politicians will be the first overcome by the darkness. Who better to manipulate. 

I like what you say and maybe we have the same ideas just written differantly. Its hard for me to answer this as i have so many ideas why we are hated. I know that we cannot continue to try and subtley take over the world (ok not so subtle sometimes) and change peoples religions. If we are no allowed to have religion involved in our own government. Than we have no right to take a country and send in missionaries.
I see that iraq is a bad place for the citizens. I realize most of them appreciate what we are doing. But in the end its just for the control and the money. We have so much work to do here we need to concentrate on ourselves some.
what really botherrs me in all this is us. Its Homeland security that now places any and everything we do under the category of terrorism so they can manipulate and do as they wish with the people here. We removed the leadr of iraq they have there own security in place and much help from us. Now lets move on. Your never EVER going to be able to eliminate terrorism. Its like saying your going to eliminate drugs totally. Its just not feasible.
If someone comes to my country goes door to door takeing weapons and poeple that are questionable. Than blows bombs the excrement out of me (no matter how accurate). And Than sets up its own government you gonna be calling me a terroist to when i hit the streets with my rifle.
I dont have all the answers but i do know what we are doing is not right. We are to fast to draw weapons and to dangerous to be unleashed by the people controlling us at the moment. No secret society people should be makeing any decisions about this country.   

Science has a long way to go before it catches up with thousands of years of dreamers and spiritual studies. 
The only thing that really bothers me are the ones who say that its not possible and not real. Well ok if my soul is not real than so be it. But really just test it for yourselves. epecially those scientists that have to base all on facts or else its not true.
No one and i mean no one knows enough about the mind and the soul to be a critic. Just as some thought it would be impossible to fly and some swore the world was flat.
 

we are made to be spiritual people. When you finally find that out its very hard to let go again....But why would you want to. Read what you like but remember in the end its what you learn for yourself that counts. If its from a book or from experiance alot of what we read that goes against science and this worlds beliefs and yet feel in our hearts is so true.

I have also experianced these places first hand. And yes many leaders besides our own are bad. But in the end we are the worst. Freedom to be spyed on my entire life because homeland security now exists is no freedom. And trying to take over the world piece by piece is not democracy.