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Thanks for the definition and your work but not sure about the definition above.

i have had many EXTRAORDINARY experiences and feelings during what i would term dreams 

Hi newmethod - have you considered the possibility that the 'extraordinary' experiences were more than dreams?  See list below re other Alterned States of Consciousness (ASC) which I copied from my notes.  (Apologies if I'm repeating something you know already)

ASC phenomenon
1.   Clairvoyance (Clarus-Videre = to see clearly in Latin). 
2.   Remote viewing
3.   Telephathy
4.   Bilocation
5.   Animism (anima = soul in Greek)
6.   Mediumship
7.   Channelling
8.   Auric coupling
9.   Intuition
10.   Deja-vu
11.   Retrocognition
12.   Precognition

THE SLEEP CYCLE

ok here we go!

from my course notes under 'Altered States of Consciousness':

Dreaming is a function of the physical brain.  It occurs when the brain "defragments" (in computer terms), i.e. removes unnecessary memories to restructure the brain and create available space. 

Brainwaive patterns during sleep - SEE DIAGRAM BELOW:
1) Beta - waking state, 2) Alpha - hypnagogic/hypnapompic state, 3) Theta - light sleep, 4) Delta - deep sleep

Dream:
- only happens during sleep and particularly during increased REM (rapid eye movement)
- is a normal mental activity
- has none or low rationality
- no recollection of the reality of physical life
- is an altered state of consciousness with ordinary experiences and feelings
- is frequently permeated with distorted images
- is easier and clearer to recall than projection which happens outside the physical brain
- images could be generated by sensor stimulation
- doesn't relate to sensations or preliminary phenomena
- dreamer is a passive observer of images and his/her perceptions are subjective

Dream cycles:
- Sleep stage 1: small irregular brainwaives
- Sleep stage 2: appearance of sleep spindles
- Sleep stage 3: appearance of data waves
- REM: rapid eye movement when dreams happen.  During REM you can dream or have an out of body experience up to 4 times a night (during 8 hours of sleep - see diagram below)

From IAC's book 'Projectiology'
page758:
"The person who is able to learn to recall natural ordinary dreams, improves the recollection of lucid projecion experiences"

page 662:
"If, during the development of a dream, your consciousness tells you that you are dreaming and that you are going to separate from the human body, your dream will end and give way to a lucid projection.  Upon interiorizing, simply tell yourself that you will leave again and this will end up happening."

CFTraveller - this is why I don't agree with what you said about dreams - specifically, if you don't perceive an exit, then you decide that it's a dream.  From the quote above, plus the classes I have taken, and my own experience, dreams can serve as 'bridges' to lucid projections.  At least on two occasions, I have "woken up" during dreams, became fully conscious and decided to go explore the astral.

I'll post more quotes as and when I find them, but I hope this is sufficient for now.

Best wishes
Venus

Interesting.. when you said

Where were they when they thought they were dreaming??

By this definition were they projecting at a lowish level of lucidity?

So am i.. Thank you,

Newmethod

hi both, I know what the definition is but would like to quote it directly from my notes and their book, so I'll come back to you shortly.  Thanks for your patience.

Venus

Venus, you have been misinformed. I think you have never had an OBE, you have just had lucid dreams. Or the other way around, you have never had a lucid dream and only had OBE's, because they are distinctly different from one another. Your comments about "people can't make conscious decisions in dreams" well they cant when there not lucid. Seems like your institute is just telling you that lucid dreams are projections (which they are not).

read up on lucid dreaming so you have something to compare your self proclaimed projections to.

Thank you for your comments but I respectfully disagree.  I know my own experiences better than you, so I'll trust my own assessment.  I suggest you take up your own advice and 'read up' about the differences between OBEs and dreams as well as about respecting others rights to perceive their experiences in their own distinct ways, without trying to influence them to meet your limited expectations.  We are all here on a learning path and not to judge each other.  As the owner of this thread, I'd like to say that I don't welcome negative and patronizing comments so if you have any more of them, please keep them to yourself. Thanks again.

hi guys - CFTraveller, Stargazer and Newmethod

Let's agree to disagree.  If you ask me, I would say none of you were dreaming, you were projected with low lucidity.

I have taken all 4 modules of IAC (international academy of consciousness www.iacworld.org) run by very experienced OBEers, and the first thing they would tell you is that projection is no big deal - WE ALL LEAVE OUR BODIES EVERY TIME WE FALL ASLEEP.  The thing is when you fall asleep your astral body leaves your body to rest (that's the purpose of sleep) and - for most people - most of the time, the astral body hovers just above the physical when they're resting - all night through.  Sometimes their astral bodies go to places but they have little lucidity (not awake in the astral), so they think they were dreaming when in actual fact, they were not.  I have read projection diaries of Dr Vieiera (founder of IAC), Monroe and Buhlman about places in the astral where humans unconsciously visit in their 'sleep'.

Some people are able to 'wake up' in their projections - but at different levels of lucidity.  The more lucid you are the more you're convinced that you're projected.  And obviously some people are advanced enough to plan and execute their projections while fully conscious.

The IAC has a definition of 'dream', and teaches about its nature and purpose, which I find sensible.  I therefore am able to tell when I dream and when I project - with either high or low lucidity.  My aim is to wake up and take control when I'm projected. 

I still dream, and I know what the dream is about when I wake up in the morning.  I don't pay much attention to dreams.

Thanks for your comments.  Questions for you - Can you fly in a dream?  Can you make conscious decisions in a dream?  I doubt it.  From my experience, in dreams, I am passive, things happen to me - I don't make them happen.  In dreams, I don't think and articulate.  However, in a projection, I am in control, because I'm conscious and am able to make assessments.

Although things were a bit hazy in this projection, I was assessing the environment around me, feeling compassion for others, and making decision to concentrate my energy to jump up and fly.  The most lucid moment was when I came across my old friend - the first thing I thought was 'what's she doing here in the astral?' (that's because the last time I saw her she was more into physical things than spiritual).  And then when I had doubts if that was her, I said to myself, it doesn't matter because I will help her anyway.  And thought that she might not be aware that she's projected.  In my opinion this is an indication that I was thinking with my 'astral' mind, not my physical brain - because I knew that it didn't matter who I helped as long as they want to be helped - we are all parts of the same energy.

Also I am partly at fault because I should have recorded it immediately while it was still fresh in my mind.  I wrote it down at the end of the day when I came back from work, which didn't help to remember the details.

happy to hear your thoughts

I was definitely OOB this morning.  I was flying - oh how I enjoy flying!

I obviously did not have much lucidity, which is why I can't remember much.  Although I know I was in a building (college, I think), and trying to help people.  I was walking down a corridor when I saw the back of someone who I thought I recognised, a childhood friend.  But when she turned to face me, I had doubts if it was her as she looked different.  (I didn't know you can bump into living people in the astral!) She seemed worried about something, and I said some encouraging words to her.  Then went out of the building and jumped up and flew around.  The students looked up and saw me with amazement.  (was I showing off?  )

Two things I learned from this OBE: 1) early mornings are the best times (at least for me) to try to project.  Fyi, after I got up in the morning, I did some energy exercises, and went back to a light sleep just before I projected (so it wasn't all spontaneous!).  2) I felt like I was there in a helping capacity - I had some confidence in myself, and understood people's worries including my old friend's.  And somehow I was quietly proud of myself.  That's also why I felt like I was showing off, because I knew the others couldn't fly.

Please let me know if any of this makes sense to you!  I'm still trying to remember the rest.

Thanks
Venus

I'm fascinated about the development in this thread! 

Really sounds like it's the same place.  It is quite a popular place as there are always lots of students there.  Can't wait to go back!

am in London too.

I am going to put a sticky perm topic for people having problems projecting as a point of reference. This is a section that I am working on and writing for "InvisibleLight" book currently being developed.

Hope this helps.

Tvos

Tvos, I think a sticky perm topic is a great idea.  One thing that I noticed is new members asking the same question, not knowing that it has already been answered.  One that comes to mind is the question of 'heart pounding' while attempting to project.  There are several threads on this posted by new members (including mine when I first joined last year).  And they all got the same replies.  This issue could be resolved if we have a joined up method such as having a central location on the site for common problems experienced by beginners.

Thanks Grey.  The problem is not just lack of OBEs on the site but actual help given to beginners.  I see lots of threads by new members asking for direction, checking if what they're doing is right, etc and they don't always get replies.  I do my best to respond to some of them but my knowledge and experience is limited. 

So what I'm suggesting is that we support each other by providing information if we can, and moral support  because these are the reasons people come to networking sites like this one and it is harder for beginners as they may well be frightened or doubtful about their next steps.  I also believe that 1) with knowledge comes responsiblity, and 2) everyone's life purpose involves some kind of assistance (sooner or later), and this is a good platform to practice that. 

Apologies for the directness but I thought it would be good to shake things up a bit to bring up changes in the New Year.

best wishes
Venus

Thank you tvos!  What a fantastic website!  I look forward to reading about all your experiences.

Dear Astral Pulse Pros

This is an appeal to you to spend a bit more of your time to help beginner and struggling APers like myself, by sharing your experiences and responding to questions and pleas.

Thank you for what you're doing already. 

Happy New Year and may we all have fantastic OBEs in 2009!

Venus

Thanks CFTraveler.  That's very interesting.

hi Ki Aura, I wouldn't recommend the use of drugs for OBE.  Yes they might help you project.  But the question is where do you end up. 

From what I've been taught, projecting while under the influence of drugs will attract beings of similar inclination (law of attraction).  And you will not be at your best to defend yourself or make decisions, which is critical for maintaining OBEs (it's hard enough without the drugs!).  Remember the law of attraction is a lot stronger in the astral than here on Earth.  When you take drugs, you lower your vibration and easily enter into the world of psychotic post-mortems. 

I don't think that's what you're aiming for?? 

Venus

Hi Stookie, thanks for replying.  But as you said it's not what I'm looking for.  I know about intuitive thinking and the law of attraction - and I do practice these as much as I can.  What I'm talking about is the activities that take place in the astral dimension in response to our thoughts, and the fact that these are visible to astral travellers.

I am fascinated by this idea.  I've read short descriptions about it but would like to understand a bit more.  From what I know, apparently when we think about something, we start creating whatever it is we're thinking about energetically and this can be seen by APers somewhere in the astral world.  This area is packed with partly formed thought energy...

If you know more about it, have seen it in the astral yourself, or can recommend a book, I'd very much like to hear from you!

Thanks!

Venus

hi guys, do you believe in synchronicity? 

Since posting this OBE, I went to Spain over the Christmas period.  I was exploring a beautiful city when I came across a very impressive old building.  I wanted to see the entrance to find out what it was, so I walked round the building, holding my breath.. and on the front it said Church of San Martin and the Apostles.  My eyes were fixed on the Apostles bit.  Made me think - is someone trying to tell me something?  Or am I just being silly?  Later, I found out there's a museum next door to the church.  It has the most beautiful entrance I've ever seen with large alabaster sculptures of men.  The house was owned by a Marquee, and built in the 15thc.  As I went up the stairs looking at very sumptious surroundings and beautiful pieces of art, I remembered my OBE, when I was doing something similar. 

Then, on my way back home, some guy came and sat opposite me on the train.  He was reading a book and I didn't give him much attention - until he held the book up and I was able to read the title.  It said "Ghandi" and something about his life and history.

OK, now you tell me.  Have I gone completely mad or is somebody sending me a message?

Hi Explorer, if I had 2 weeks to myself, I'd do lots of energy exercises every day.  I've been taught very simple exercises to induce vibrations and ultimately OBEs by experts - so if you're not sure, let me know and I'll do my best.

Venus 

You're right Explorer.  My projections are hard to come by, but when they do they're pretty amazing. 

Wow, thanks Grey.  Now that you said it, yes it must be a BST.  Is the energy quite low in there?

Oh, and one more thing... I noticed that I was wearing a jacket I had on during the day (not my PJs) which I thought was weird.  Also sensed that most people go there in their sleep, but don't realise it...

Hi all

I'm 90% sure this was an OBE, and am still putting the pieces together...

This morning, I woke up to an alarm, closed my eyes again for a few minutes and instantly I was semi-lucid in a place that looks like a typical Western city, and I was instantly aware:

- that I was out of my body, in a place 'far away' from Earth and very keen to experience moving in my astral body
- that I was NOT totally lucid (I wished I had more clarity), but then again, I was also convinced that this is just the level lucidity you would get in this place.  It's the energy of the place. And the people I saw there looked kinda bored.  I even sensed that they envied us Earthlings just a little bit...
- that I was a visitor/tourist, and being shown around a place of worship (Church) with other 'tourists'
- that the other tourists also APed like me, and that I should expect them to (and actually wanted to see them) dissolve in front of my eyes when they wake up in their physical bodies. A bit like what happens in Matrix.

There were around 3 of us who I 'knew' also had left their physical bodies 'so far away on Earth'.  There was a local priest whose face I couldn't see but was showing us around, and a keeper/receptionist lady who looked really bored.  (I knew that no one worked in this place, as there's no such thing as a paid job.  People worked because they had nothing else to do.) 

The church was deserted.  We walked up a narrow carpeted staircase.  On the way were various small sculptures behind glass.  Our host asked us to identify them.  He explained that this is more than a church, that Earth's greatest men and women are celebrated here.  He mentioned the Apostle (?) amongst others, then I saw a jewelled sculpture and shouted out 'that's Ghandi!', to which the priest seemed pleased because I was right... We arrived at a large spacious room full of colourful drapes and carpet at which point the priest gave me his 'business card' so that I know this is not a 'dream', it's real and serious.  It probably was the end of the tour.  I said to the others that I would repeat the number over and over so that I'd remember when I come back to my body and know this was for real!  The receptionist overheard us and said something like "the EC is very real".  That's what they call this place, the EC. I looked at the card again and it was not a business card anymore, but a small promotional material, but it had the same number on it.  I read the number out aloud so that it will register... then felt my physical body vibrate gently and opened my eyes instantly (it wasn't like waking up from sleep). 

The first thing I did was ring the number.  Incorrect number it said.  I tried another combination.  Again incorrect number.  (I knew I wasn't ringing EC, but either a branch, or someone who probably knows about this place...)

I've been intrigued all day long.  First time I brought a London number from an OBE! LOL

What's your view?  Have you been to this place before?  Any insight?

Thanks!
Venus

excellent! Thanks Token. I'm going to try again and remember your advice. 

Thanks again guys.  Will keep on practicing.

I sometimes ask the Universe why it has to be so difficult!?  Grrrrrrrrr....