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That's interesting. I know Frank loved Seth & read all the books. It is what started his success with phasing. I should read those now. Thank you.

Tom Campbell has also stated that while he was reading everything on this subject and discussing with Robert Monroe back in the 70's the Seth material was the most accurate they found.  Though he has also stated that channel work is a tricky thing and everything is still filtered through Jane's experience and so to take everything at its word could cause issues.  He mostly brings up this point in response to Seth saying time is an illusion and the past, present, and future exist at the same time... which is not a view Tom holds.

Great post and great responses.  building a custom rundown per Frank's technique might be one way to get you there.  Much harder to stay there.  Now I will say the act of attempting very well might lead to some cool regular dreams where you are interacting in the novel setting though.

@Lumaza, I took a look at the pictures you posted and all I can say is wow, those look totally amazing!

I agree William is a great guy and good obe  teacher.  I like that he doesn't shy away from mystical terms like many do these days.

If you are saying the average person is not capable of learning piano or calculus I completely disagree.  Some will learn quicker and can have a higher ceiling based on natural talent but neither is beyond what an average person can achieve with dedication and practice.  Same goes for direct techniques in my opinion which of course is just my opinion.  The problem isn't with direct techniques being a waste of time or not achievable.  Like Xanth said problem is with people not having developed the skills and not willing to develop the necessary skills.

Thanks everyone for the replies, there are some great insights in there.  I can't say for sure what William means by direct vs indirect as they don't go into it but I would define as if you are conscious in PMR and end up in NPMR without a break in that consciousness that is direct.  If you lose consciousness and regain it in NPMR that would be indirect.  I have William's audible OBE course and read his first book.  His teaching style seems to be to do some sort of imagination of having an OBE (walking around your house looking and feeling objects of high importance to you for example) then holding this as you fall asleep which will eventually cause you to wake up in that location or your room "out of body".  So that I would say is clearly an indirect technique style.

Also I would like to just say I feel there is a difference between the statements many people can't do something and many people CAN'T do something.  What I mean is there is difference between saying not many people can play the piano or solve a calculus problem, and saying not many people can jump as high as Michael Jordan or even dunk a basketball.  Both are true statements with the difference being if you work hard and stay dedicated most people can learn to play the piano or do calculus.  No matter how hard you train most of us will never jump as high as Michael Jordan can.  Learning Direct techniques are something that many people can't do but that doesn't mean it is something that is outside of their ability to learn if they work at it and stay dedicated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O14VL82duh4&t=986s

Interesting interview done recently, about 4 weeks ago with William Buhlman.  I think my favorite part is the interviewer does a good job of asking practical OBE questions and keeping the interview on topic.  It was interesting to hear William say in the first 10 minutes he usually has an OBE only about once every 10 days.  It is also interesting at the end William says he doesn't really know anyone that has success with direct methods and he doesn't even "waste people's time with direct techniques".  Do you all agree direct techniques are a waste of time?

@Octave, Welcome to the forums, I myself have recently just come back and started posting again here after being away for a few years or so.  I wanted to share my experience of visualizing because I think it might be similar to yours or if not at least you might be able to gain some insight from it.  Basically I can't visualize for beans.  Tell me to focus on a spinning top and "visualize" it and I'm going to fail if the expectation is I see it the same as if I was watching a spinning top on a table.  I was very discouraged for a long time and figured I just couldn't visualize.  Then I found "Astral Dynamics" by Robert Bruce.  Basically what this book said was very few actually see anything when they visualize and he relabeled it "tactile imaging".  To me it could just as easily be called sensing or imagining.  Basically for me it is the same as how I recall memories.  For example take a drink of water, wait 5 seconds, now remember taking that drink of water.  Do you actually "see" yourself taking that drink or do you "sense" it.  For me it is more like sensing and when I picture the top spinning it is the same way.  Now if I get relaxed enough and far enough into a session the sensing gets to a point where it becomes clearer and clearer and at some point I might actually see it in what is considered a more traditional "visualization" sense.  For others it is different though I know some can close their eyes and actually see things just the same as if it was in front of them, Not I though.

@Lumaza, That makes me sad that people think doing stuff like this is a waste of time.  It seems the fad in OBE these days are these quick and easy methods, known as indirect methods that manipulate your sleep state.  "The Phase" by Michael Raduga as well as most all of William Buhlman's techniques are centered around this.  I am not a fan.  Sure if you want to have an OBE they are great, you will have your first OBE sooner with way less effort than learning to do it from a conscious state.  But is this the best?  As Tom Campbell puts it in one of his videos (wish I could remember what one to reference it, he has so many now) "Start from a fuzzy consciousness, you will have a fuzzy NPR experience.  But you don't have to, you can learn to start from a clear consciousness and have clear NPR experiences".  That is paraphrased but I agree 100% with him.  However if you aren't willing to do focus exercises and practice things like Frank's Rundown or I believe it is Xanth that has the noticing technique in his ebook, then you are not going to be able to get the most out of your practice.  Plus you are going to miss out on all the other physiological and psychological benefits you get from doing relaxation/focus/meditation work.

Just to finish I would like to state I'm not trying to say you should ignore sleep, dream, LD, indirect nighttime phase states and not work with those experiences.  What I am saying is that this should not be your entire practice in my opinion.

Thanks for posting this is a great subject.  Although most people probably have a similar view of this as merely a warm up for the main show as you put it, there is much that can be gained from these experiences.  Monroe talks in his books about being able to from I believe this state play back "rote" complete with rewind and pause functions, I believe this is in his second book Far Journeys.  He also talks, I believe in his first book, about a valve hiss movie screen type experience where he sees scenes from the future.  According to Monroe these became true with quite high accuracy although some he shared never appeared to come true.  This is also the state I believe Tom Campbell talks about frequently where he received many of his insights for work problems.  He talks about basically how you can from here ask a question to the LCS and then receive an answer, which is really just exactly what you are doing with remote viewing.

Though I don't recall seeing faces very often I do see outdoor scenes same as you.  My thoughts on this are that either through meditation or OBE you are try to liberate or be free of constraints, in meditation it could be the constraints of your thoughts or the illusions of PMR, the "ignorance of Samsara" as a Buddhist might say.  In an OBE for a long time and for many it is still viewed as literally "getting outside" your body.  So to me it makes since with this intent you would produce or channel or see or remote view (however you would like to label it) outdoor themes.  As I was trying to elude to in the first part of my post though this doesn't have to be all these are.  If you change your intent, as many of the more advanced practitioners do regularly, you can actually turn this state into a very practical tool for everyday life.  Indeed an argument could be made this state has the ability to produce at least equal practical knowledge and insight for everyday application than fully phasing or a traditional projection.

Thanks for sharing.  I have not personally read the Seth material myself, though I know many who have found it very enlightening.  One day perhaps I will get to it.  Part I found most interesting was about the concept of there being an individual consciousness in your cells that maintains your body during an OBE.

I wish you all the best as you move forward and will keep you in my thoughts.  Hopefully you are at the tail end of whatever this is and will be feeling better soon.  If you are into things like qigong I suggest you give something like that a try.  I find it very relaxing and is good for "energy balancing" especially if you go into it with positive intention and affirmations.  "Yoqi Yoga and Qigong" is a youtube channel I like for some good qigong flows.

Hi Sacolucci,

I had effects much the same as this when I originally listened to the gateway series 10 years ago or so.  I can't tell you what exactly is happening but I do have some theories based on my own experience with it.  My symptoms were just about the exact same as yours, I was probably listening to maybe 3 exercises a day at the time so probably hour and a half time wise, and it was probably after 3-4 days I really started to notice the effect.  At the surface the most plausible cause at least to me was some sort of effect of the hemi-sync technology with my brain which was leaving my brain waves in an altered state after listening to the exercise.  To put in Monroe terms I wasn't completely returning to C1.  This seemed to make sense since I would say these symptoms are somewhat similar to a deep relaxed, very early trance state or more accurately when you break directly out of one of these states.  It was just for me they would stick around for a few days without leaving, I don't recall anything lasting over a month though and certainly not 7+ months like you are experiencing.

I have a few reasons though I am skeptical about this being the cause.  My main one is I had at the time listened to several non gateway hemi-sync products for several years prior without any similar issues also since this gateway experience I have listened to many other binaural beats without any issues.  So unless there is just something about the tones they use in the gateway series I'm not sure the audio is the issue.  Another thought I had was it could be due to a reaction to the hypnosis nature of the tapes.

You might want to try and play around with it and when it comes on or if it is there always just pick a moment and be mindful of it.  One of the things I found is I wasn't really dizzy in these states of mind, I didn't have any of the physical effects of dizziness such as balance issues etc.  It was more like there just was a feeling in my head which reminded me of how I feel when I am dizzy.  I personally don't think this is anything to worry or be freaked out about, though I understand those feelings as I was when I first experienced it as well.  Like I said I'm not sure exactly what the cause is but my guess is you have changed your energy requirements of your body and this is an effect or hangover from that, which as you put it could be looked as a spiritual balance issue.

Just out of curiosity what have you been doing the last 7 months?  Do you still listen to any binaural beat style tapes, do you listen to any guided meditations, are you doing any meditation or energy work or have you just stopped everything and are still having these feelings?

Thanks again for sharing it was interesting to see someone having a very similar experience to what I had to the same product.

Hello Chris and welcome!  Thanks for sharing your experience, your heightened sense of awareness is really cool.  I think Lumaza's response was really well worded.  Only thing I will add is just incase you were wondering a little more on the science side what SP or sleep paralysis is basically it is just when your body releases a chemical which stops your voluntary muscles from firing.  Many suggest this is done so that you do not act out your dreams.  For many reasons, in your case the ingestion of a foreign substance, your body can become confused and this chemical either continues to be made, or what has already been made does not go through the normal 'uptake' process clearing it from the system before you become physically 'conscious'.  Important point in all this is it happens every night as you sleep and is a natural process which won't hurt you, it just is very scary when you actually are awake to experience it since it is designed to happen while you are not physically conscious.  Many people actively try to get into this state and most of them in the beginning still find themselves scared when it happens even though it was what they are trying to accomplish.

Great post!  I love it.  It might be a possible idea to work this into a monthly series where the challenge changes each month and then comes back around again so you can see x number of months down the road how you have progressed.

You make a great point about losing the pulse, I love the way in which you phrased that statement.  Honestly I believe it is just a winter season for consciousness exploration as a whole, at least in the society of which I am a part (Western).  This does not surprise me as there was a clear 'fall' period the last few years after the 'Summer' period that was the late 90's through late 2000's.  I however strongly feel we are primed to start climbing out of 'winter' and into 'spring' though and am exited to see what this new 'summer' will bring.

Cool experience thanks for sharing.  That def. falls into the "classic" style obe exit.  I really like the part where you bumped into the ceiling.  I always find things like bumping into objects in an obe state to be slightly funny.  Though perhaps the same could be said for bumping into stuff in physical life.  Reminds me of a saying I heard from a Buddhist teacher.  He pointed to a wall behind him and said "the only reason I can't put my hand through this wall is not because the wall is solid, but because I am."  The power of the mind never ceases to amaze.

Thanks again for sharing and I hope if it is right for your growth you continue to have a resurgence of experiences to share with us.

BTW I'm not sure who the teacher is that quote is from but I heard it as retold by Andrew Holecek in his audible presentation of his book Dream Yoga: The Tibetan Path of Awakening Through Lucid Dreaming.

Very well written post

@Luffy that is what you are looking to do, or the what.  I meant more what are you looking to get out of the experiences, or the why.  Both are important but the why is overlooked much more frequently.  What we do is not as important as why we do it.

This can be personal and by no means needs to be shared here.  But tackling your personal why or intent will be a huge step regardless of what technique you decide, and might help point you to which technique.

I believe left handed devil connection goes back to the early Latin church days.  I believe sinister means left handed.  I know it is still used in chemistry to describe "left handed" isomers of molecules.

Luffy if you really don't care if the methods you learn are evil or harmful you might consider thinking on that some.  Not caring about the state of your consciousness can lead to some serious blocks and limitations.  I guess one question might be what are you looking for out your ap experiences.  knowing this might make knowing what techniques might work for you easier.

Lots of people find it easier to use a voice recorder instead of writing it down.  With how popular smartphones and the like are it makes voice memos much easier.

Something that popped up as an idea when I read your post was mixing the two.  Do a voice recording instead of doing the writing part while drawing the picture.  Might be worth a try.

@Xanth

Just because my conclusions are different than yours does not make them wrong.  But thank you for spitting in the face of my opinions, very nice of you.

astralm, having come from a Christian background myself, I'm curious to know what ways you think religion might play in all this. Is it simply an attempt by ancient peoples to quantify deep experiences they had? Or is there something more to it than that? Its interesting to me that much of what Jesus taught meshes with concepts people are learning from meditation and non-physical experiences. And I'm not talking about "Heaven is for real" stuff.

Hey Ricochet,
I see religion as models of how everything works.  However many just see the impact of them, for example how they have been used to control countries and oppress people.  Which they have been used for but so has science, however if you look at some of the models themselves, and attach them to the time and place, wow they are really impressive.  For example Tom Campbell didn't make up that this reality is not real and virtual.  Long before computers and science this concept in seen in the bible, Greek philosophy and many many other religions going back who knows how far.  The idea that this reality was created by something, those are concepts that came from the fact we are spiritual being and our spirit resides outside this reality.  We may have forgot and are shielded from much of this knowledge while here, but somewhere deep down we know the basics.  And we explain it with models.

Just because some of the older religions are simpler or more basic models doesn't make them garbage or wrong.  In order for a model to have value it must make sense, a model more advanced than the culture would be just nonsense.  Giving a model like Tom's or Frank's or Monroe's to someone 3000 years ago would not be revolutionary, it would just be gibberish on the page, they didn't have the background to understand it.  So given all that I think it is a little ignorant to look at those models and say they are wrong and dangerous.  That is pretty much the same thing as saying learning about electron clouds is wrong and dangerous because we now know this is a limited and not entirely accurate model of how electrons really behave.

Best Regards

I have studied Tom quite a bit.  I believe he has some amazing points, if nothing else there are two great takeaways in my opinion.  The first is that the best model of this reality we have is it being a virtual reality.  The second is all we have are models, and MODELS ARE NOT REAL.  Tom doesn't believe his views are true, he just thinks they are best model.  But the real takeaway is whatever the model, once you believe it to be real and not just a model of reality you have put a limit on your growth.

Once again to repeat what the model, once you believe it to be real and just a model of reality you have put a limit on your growth.  (If you take nothing away from him than this I think he would be happy.)

The biggest problem I have with Tom's TOE is that he comes from a scientific background and yet does not talk at all, except very briefly at the beginning of his first book about his experiences.  This essentially means he is presenting the conclusion of his experiments without letting anyone see or have any idea of the experiments or resulting data which got him there.  Without seeing the experiment that led the conclusion you really have no way of making a judgement either way on the validity of the conclusion.  I understand his explanation for why he does not share this, but still it weakens his TOE quite a bit.

Second problem in particular that Robert Monroe and Tom Campbell (Who learned under Monroe) seem to have is a very tainted view of the models of reality presented by religion.  To the point of ignorance.  They seem to not grasp the idea behind religion at all.  Best example I can think of is Tom writes about how he dismisses the idea of God and the Holy Spirit and the notion they care about you or interact on your behalf at all.  I believe he says something along the lines of it is as silly as thinking you personally care about a single bacterium in your gut.  However in like the very same chapter he goes on to say how the greater computer or whatever he calls it, is open to and willing to help anyone who asks for it.  Wow an interface with what created us that can give us aid and understanding and help us, sounds like kind of a spot on analogy for the Holy Spirit.  It's not like 2000 years ago they would present the holy spirit as a computer interface, being they had no idea what a computer was.  Tom himself warns against having a predetermined bent against an idea and how that will limit your views, however he clearly has not taken his own advice and I believe this leads to a particular view of his experiences which are tainted by that.  But who knows since like I said he won't share the experiences which he makes his views based on.

Shoot I had one last point but I can't remember it.  Oh yes at the end of the day I really don't think Tom cares at all about giving people a true view of reality.  His goal is to have his Big TOE spark something that leads you to what he calls 'bettering your consciousness.'  His TOE is just the model he uses to try and jump start you to making a change to go about that.  So at the end of the day don't take too many of the fine points of his theory too literally or seriously, because I'm pretty sure he doesn't.

@Xanth

First your quotes are all messed up, makes your message hard to read.

Second on your very own site under lesson 1 you have a very good video from Thomas Campbell.  His advice for getting into the larger reality?  Simple, "meditate to a point where you let everything go, there is nothing but you and your consciousness".  Pretty straight forward way to describe being in an empty mind state.  From here he recommends simply using your intent to go where you want to go.

You seem to be a little confused on the process since your own post which states your mind should never be not doing something is very different from the advice given in your own lesson video on your website.

Anyways I am done, hope you guys all find good luck and much success with all avenues of consciousness growth you embark on.

Hello BigRaider,

There are many different styles and way to achieve the obe.  There are already some great ideas and responses in this thread.  One of the problems, as has been brought up, is that most of us suck at the whole empty mind thing.  You can try to get around this with using a state where your mind is already sort of in a quiet mood (morning/middle of night).  This works great for many people as a way to get around the empty mind block.  It does work very well for me.  I would recommend considering looking into the Frank Kepple phasing as well as William Buhlman's version of it.  I believe these are great for beginners because you are holding your focus outside your physical body, which is the important part, but also doing something (active imagination/visualization), which allows you to not lose 'interest' as quick.  For example you said since your breathing never changes you find yourself losing focus on it.

I personally combine the two.  I use the rundown scenario that Frank Kepple used (my own version, but his style) however I usually do it with the timing that William Buhlman suggests (at night before bed, not in the morning).  This is what works best for me, I believe everyone has their own 'magic hour'.

Frank Kepple used a Gateway tape from the Monroe institute to structure his rundown.  I created my own audio file.  If you have a microphone for your computer this is easy to do.  Simply find a quiet and relaxing mp3, could be binaural beats, white noise, or just ambient music.  Try to find something that is very mellow and doesn't have any dramatic noises in it.  Download audacity, it is free.  Then simply record your own prompts and load them at the markers you want in the mp3 (after importing the mp3 file).  I simply use very brief prompts at key changes, this keeps me on track or gets me back on track when I waiver but I find if I do audio for the whole rundown, or if I use the wave I cd (Monroe Gateway), it is too much talking and distracts me.  I do not do well if a full guided meditation, but again some do.

An example is I will start off with 'you are approaching a tropical island'  This prompts me to imagine myself coming up to a tropical island, then I go through my release of physical worries etc, and then the next audio on the mp3 is me saying 'you begin to relax' this prompts me to begin a full body relaxation and countdown to focus 10 (that is taken from Monroe).  I add another prompt which is just '5' halfway through the coundown.  This simply brings me back if I have drifted off.  etc., etc. you get the idea, hope it helps.

Another thing you may consider doing is William Buhlman has an audio course, which is not too bad and works on visualization a lot.  It is 40 dollars I believe, however, it is on audible so if you sign up for a free trial you get a free credit which you can use to get the download for free, not a bad deal.  I recommend it for beginners.  Just a side note, he does use what I feel is a pretty outdated model for the why of obe, so I personally don't give much credit to this explanation portion of the audio course.  However his how's are pretty solid, probably the best audio course for having an obe.  I have not read any of his full books so can't speak to them, I believe the audio course is based off the practical section in his second book though.

Good luck and keep at it!

Is there a reason why you feel it is better to have your lamp off during your attempts?  I never use a completely dark room.  Not that I am afraid of the dark, just that I am a fan of seeing, also the more you distance yourself from what your body associates as normal sleep conditions the better.  This is why many suggest a chair or a couch instead of your bed.  Along these lines I think a room lightly lit will help "you" differentiate between sleep time and consciousness work time.

There have been many authors who theorize some of the negative aspects of a spontaneous obe are due to the fact they tend to happen when people are in their beds at night in a dark room.  In an obe state, especially when one is not familiar with it, things such as shadows or just the normal unknown that darkness brings can easily be turned into monsters or the like.

Just an observation on what Xanth said.  When dealing with this level of work fear takes on a new meaning.  Much more subtle fears can manifest.  In life we can, and usually do, ignore small fears or bury them.  This does not work here.  So if darkness even gives you that slightly unsettled feeling, in normal life if someone asked if we were afraid of the dark we would say no.  I mean it is not like we can't handle the dark or have a panic attack or anything.  However in this world of work, yeah that is a fear that should be addressed.  Be prepared to face fears you honestly never knew you had.  They are there and they will come up, for everyone.  Nobody gets bonus points for not having or accepting their fears, it is kind of a main point, if not the main point, to all this.

EDIT:  Last little thought.  Also I think we need to get rid of the view fears are an on/off thing.  Either you have one or you don't.  I think a much more accurate model is that they are a moving scale always changing.  For instance I said earlier I am not afraid of the dark.  That is true and also not true.  Generally I am not afraid of the dark, however some days something may happen, maybe I watch a horror thriller or read a dark book that gets to me a little bit.  That night I might have a little fear of the dark pop up.  Point is you don't either have a fear or you don't.  It is very much based on your state in that moment.

This question has been debated and discussed to death, from philosophers thousands of years ago to lines/plots in a handful of movies every year.  No one can prove anything, anyone can 'say' whatever they want.  Everyone BELIEVES in something, the Belief in nothing is no different and with no more proof than the belief in something.