Messages

>>I'm having a really hard time overcoming the torso energy rush that occurs in my projection attempts. I think it's a matter of overcoming the sensation, but I just can't get my body to keep from tensing up when it happens, throwing me out of trance...

any suggestions? anyone else have a hard time with this?<<

Yes I have this exact same problem, in fact, I think it is the main thing barring me from having an OBE. I've had the same problem for over a year now, and can't find a way to fix it. I also feel a strong pressure on my chest which makes it difficult to breathe and that causes tension.

Maybe it's just those of us named Jonathan

Atlas

>>Ive decided that im going to spend a significant amount of my adult life(Im 13), on trying to prove Out of body experiences and other paranormal phenomena. I will start a corporation that focuses on the spreading of knowledge and the scientific study of OOBEs. There are too many 'coincidences' for all this to be fake. People need to thoroughly study the activity of the brain during an OOBE and the effects on the persons environment. If people would put the effort and money into Astral Projection, it would be proved, and people would finally open their mind up to the paranormal world.<<

Best of luck to you. The OBE is a very difficult thing to prove.

>>As I have said before a number of times, what we are involved with here is a new and emerging science.<<

You have said that and I totally agree that it might be, but as I've said and I think you'll agree, this new science is not above the scientific method. You have said that it may be proved in the future and that might be the case also, but as it stands right now, I see no reason to believe, based on EVIDENCE here, that the OBE is not a vivid lucid dream. I totally understand your position, and I think you understand mine. Only you know that you are having an OBE, and that it is NOT a dream. There's no way to prove it to anyone except in the ways we've stated.

Thanks for the post

Atlas

>>I wont go down the path of telling you how the stock market works<<

I am a stock trader by profession so I don't think I require your tutelage.

>>I can sense you are a fairly defensive & patriotic sort & will choose to ignore what is going on around you<<

I ignore nothing. Yes I defend capitalism when it is attacked because it not clearly understood 99% of the time. Capitalism is a system of voluntary exchange to mutual benefit, BARRING physical force. EVERY other system consists of one group of people stealing/extorting from another.It is the system of a free people.

If you look at what I said, I did not call you a communist. What I said is that the idea that capital is responsible for oppression/(choose your evil) around the world is one of the main ideas behind communism

>>2)You are an employee of the amazing randi or some other debunker or science fraternity that has very strict beliefs & agenda's to push.<<

Haha...the truth comes out now doesn't it? One person desiring proof and reason...that's all, and that must make me a debunker, member of a science fraternity with an agenda to push. My beliefs are NOT strict. I will believe anything if it can be proved. I will believe there are ancient ruins on the moon if you can just show me some evidence. That's all.
But ...apparently this field is "above" proof. I knew I would be attacked sooner or later.

By the way I did not misquote you. Anything you say is in >><<. what's below it is MY response.

I looked back at my last few posts and I dont  know what it was I said that made you so angry and decide to start accusing me, but whatever It was I apologize. I can see this is starting to get under your skin, so I'll give you the last word and we'll call this thread closed.

Thanks for the post.

Atlas

>>I'd say extreme commonality of experience throughout the ages is a pretty good indicator of reality<<

Ok...the problem is that I see the experiences as being NOT COMMON with each other. If you read Monroe, and then you read Bruce, they are TOTALLY different, except when it comes to the projection reflex itself which is pretty similar. For example,
BRUCE
-melting hands
-astral wind
-akashic records
-astral "skins"

MONROE
-loosh

Bruce makes no mention of "loosh" and Monroe makes no mention of any of Bruce's "hallmark" experiences. Bruce makes it seem that most of those things you can count on experiencing if you are truly OBE. Loosh was pretty much the huge discovery of Monroe's adventures and if I remember correctly, the prime mover of the entire earth experience basically, and yet Bruce never mentions it once. Odd.

Atlas

>>Every single one of them despite all their success CANNOT see numbers very well,sure shapes & scenery,but numbers were deemed by all an extremely hard target,2 or 3 numbers yes but 5 or 6 no.I suspect most skeptics have read this also & rely on that one sticking point for proof<<

What if I make them big? numbers are just shapes really. They can't see shapes? even if they are big?

>>Why not today decide that the whole thing is a lie & a hoax (OBE's) & never concede the idea again in your life.Get on with things in the physical & even though you believe that microwaves cook your food,have you seen them exactly? they mustn't exist if you can't see them<<

I disagree...there are many experiments you can do to prove the existence of microwaves. I'm not taking issue with obe's because I can't see them and hear them, its because there is NO EVIDENCE. None. No evidence of them occuring or of any effects. And I don't believe that there is ANYTHING wrong with demanding proof or evidence of something to accept it. Just as I'm not going to believe in time travel, until it is proven and repeatable.

>>The reason you don't abandon it,is because you KNOW there is something to it<<

The reason I don't abandon it is not because I KNOW it is true, since I do not, but because I WANT it to be true, because OBEs sure sound like fun and I'd love to have them.

Atlas

>>I think Pe makes a good point about materialism.Most of the human inhabitants of this planet have to become part of the monetary system in one way or another & we seem to be reaching a saturation point very soon.Noticed the rediculously high wages of company CEO's in proportion to the average wage earner?Insurance pay outs in the millions for petty things,banks that have billion to trillion dollar turn overs everyyear?Third world countries that have the same bank balances as a single person walking the streets in a first world country.Because they are dumb? no,because of their religion or colour or race? no, because the ones who have the money,the stuff that virtually ensures success,don't want to change that,they want the money to stay in power utilities,defence utilities, & manipulate where the attention of the majority of the planet will be focused on,while they eat your pants off your arse/butt & don't even turn in their sleep at night in worry.Most people know that money will help a great deal in an individuals success & that of their offspring.Natural intelligence is another,but hard in a third world country to succeed.The other advantage a parent can give a child is to teach them from birth,everything,music, speaking,reading,languages.


The basic dilemma we are faced with here is MONEY,while it exists,there will always be trouble & manipulation.I guess the rebuttal from the top 10 richest on our planet would be ;sure you can't take any possessions with you when you die,but you can make sure your children will be exceedingly wealthy too,at the expense of millions.We all know intrinsically that money is wrong,it stifles life.
<<

Hmmm...these sound like arguments I've heard before....by a guy named Karl Marx. And we already tried getting rid of the ultimate "evil" capital...that was called communism and millions of people were tortured terrorized and killed in that wonderful system.
I love money. In a free society, it is the symbol of exchange and ideas between people, with an absence of physical force. The reason a CEO makes a "ridiculously" more amount of money compared to the average worker is that he has a "ridiculously" more difficult job. The reason third world countries are so poor is because they do not have a system that honors individual rights, property rights, or encourages business and entrepreneurship. They are usually ran by warlords and dictators. But we are getting deeper into political philosophy here and I suggest we don't or this thread won't be 4 pages long it will be 40

>>Atlas you didn't get back to me on what OBE books,techniques or meditations you have tried in your attempts to have OBE's & whether you have a journal & hemi sync? I have taught people guitar & karate in the past & the majority buy a guitar or learn a technique or two & then say "why can't I play as good as you?" "Iv'e bought a guitar or uniform why can't I kick arse/butt?" when no effort whatsoever has been put into actually practicing it & not talking about it.Please tell me Atlas as it would be a shame to hear you have no books,no journal,don't meditate,stretch,try NEW, or some other technique? or you work for the government in your spare time.<<

I have probably about 20 books related to teaching psychic skills. I have Monroe's first two books, and Astral Dynamics among them. I've done NEW, I've tried the rope technique. I play instruments also and have a black belt so it's not that I dont know how to work toward things and I understand that skills don't just appear out of thin air. I've had some "questionable" experiences but nothing i would call a success. I've tried hemi-sync. It was fun to listen to, but didnt trigger any OBEs or anything.

Thanks for the post.

Atlas

>>There are those people "out there" who have to grow-up and realise that what we early explorers are involved with here is a new and emerging science.<<

I agree that that may be true Frank, but it doesn't make this "new" science exempt from things like proof and logic and reason.

>>Just like those who believed the world was flat, or that the sun revolved around the earth: no-one can convince these people any different. So why should I (for one) waste my valuable time trying?<<

Well, when people refused to believe the world was round and that the earth revolved around the sun, the scientific method was still relatively new and not understood by people. At this stage, a lot of people are familiar with and respect the scientific process, so comparing todays world with Galileo's isn't quite accurate. More people respect what science is trying to tell them today than they did then.

I also think that you are assuming that "people who don't believe in OBEs never will and are just stubborn skeptics who will never change no matter what I do". I don't think that's true. Yes there are people like that, but I don't think it's the majority. Me for instance. All I want is a little proof.

I am torn between the sincerity of people like yourself and Robert Bruce, and the obvious lack of proof combined with completely inconsistent stories and accounts in this field.

You know, here's something, I will give ANYONE here FIFTY chances, over as spread out a period as s/he wants, to come read a 5 or 6 digit number on my front door. If someone gets it right just ONE time, I will accept that as proof, since even with 50 chances it's close to impossible to guess a 6 digit number.
You wanna bet how many takers I'll have? My bet is ZERO

Atlas

>>thats as good a reason as any for those of us who OBE to prove it<<

Yes it is. In my opinion, pick a reason, as there are many reasons to prove OBE.

>>Ive tried it for two years in the past and failed...but Im not going to do the "susan blackmore" thing and reject it cause it cant be proved right now<<

I really like your post Michael but this brings up another point. You've tried for two years and failed to prove OBE (I respect your honesty). Couldn't it be *POSSIBLE* that what you think is going on is NOT going on? I know how real it seems...but my dreams seem completely and totally real too, when I'm in them. I guess what I am thinking is that it isnt possible to prove that an OBE is NOT a lucid dream experience, UNLESS you can get information you previously did not know about the real world through the OBE, that (in my opinion) would have to be its defining characteristic. And that's all I'm asking for as proof really. Come read my number!

>>but she is not wrong in claiming the burden of proof is on us who say we have experienced OBE's to prove it or at least be prepared to attempt to prove it..the objections to doing this or at least be prepared to do this are increasingly hollow sounding <<

I agree.

Atlas

>>If you don't guess the number I have in the box,not only don,t you not win $1 Million,but it will PROVE you don't have a connection with these deities & your religion or beliefs is a lie.<<

I'm not sure this is the same thing as asking an OBEer to read a number in a box. If you did it through a religious deity, the success of the experiment relies on the deity, not the person communicating with the deity, whose claim it is you are trying to prove. So I may be talking to jesus every day, but he may not want to read your number.

With an OBEer, the success of the experiment depends purely on him and his intentions(granting that the person doing the experiment with him is objective and upright and following the correct scientific protocols), not some intermediary.

>>Check out this link & more importantly the bit near the bottom where it talks about physicists working on atoms & particles found that their own thoughts or focus affected the experiment.<<

This is very true especially in the world of quantum physics. No small number of scientists are pretty freaked out by what they are finding here. What they are finding seems to be that consciousness has a direct effect on physical reality. A quantum particle can be 0 AND 1 at the same time, take path A AND path B simultaneously, until a conscious observation forces that particle to decide which path it actually took. It's called quantum decoherence when the particle "makes a decision".  It's very strange and fascinating if you ask me. It seems that all of reality is constantly being rendered by conscious observation.

Atlas

>>You never know, sometime soon I might take you up on your offer. <<

hey man, if you are ever ready, just let me know.
That goes for anyone else too. No reward money here though hehe

Atlas

>>It is not encumbent on OBE capable people to prove anything at all to anyone - because they are not disputing anything, and they know OBE is a fact, not speculation. It is science that is skeptical, because OBE is, for the most part, outside of their sphere of understanding, which for the most part is within the physical universe. Accordingly, the burden of proof that OBE and other dimensions of reality does not really exist is with them, if that is what they prefer to believe.<<

I am not saying OBEers have a duty to prove anything. HOWEVER, i do believe that if the burden of proof rests on anyone, it is on the OBEers, not the scientists to DISPROVE it. It's not that they are disputing anything, but they are putting something ENTIRELY new on the scientifiic table. They are claiming there is a second "energy" body that dislogdes during an obe and travels around. The burden of proof is on them, otherwise, scientists would be busy 24/7 trying to disprove claims about time travel, ufo's, dragons, moon bases, unicorns, and leprechauns. If someone can obtain FACTUAL data about the physcal dimension through the obe experience (through real time zone exploriation), s/he should have no qualms about proving it under scientific conditions. I know I would.

Thanks for the post,

Atlas

>>It's also rather comical to me, being a scientist, and who recounts to this BBS my controlled, consistent attempts at performing various obe states that you would ask for further "proof".

Faith is sadly lacking in you, my friend. <<

Frank, no offense meant here mate but I find your claim at being a scientist questionable if you mention "faith". Faith in something requires that it not be provable or have evidence otherwise you "know" it and it is no longer a matter of faith. Science is about facts, reason, rationality, evidence. NOT faith. Faith is the realm of religion and mysticism, not science.

Experiments performed by you on yourself can't just be accepted you know. There's no way to avoid bias in that circumstance. Here's an experiment. I will give you my address, We can use TerraServer so that you know how to get here, and I will paste a 5 digit number on my front door. Go into the real time zone and come read it. Now THERE is an experiment!

And like i've said, my FAITH , for better or worse, is STRONG! BECAUSE, despite my 0 success rate, despite my issues with this in terms of logic and rationality, I STILL believe this a true phenomenon. That's pretty much faith, since everything rational is telling me this is a load of malarkey.

Thanks for the post. Cya

Atlas

>>Why do people need a scientist to say it's true?why don't people put some time & effort into it's validity for themselves?<<

Well, I for one have spent hours upon hours trying to test its validity for myself with 0 results, so by that I would have to say it is not valid. However, i do believe it is a real phenomenon, that's why for confirmation I would like to see some controlled, consistent successful tests by a scientist who has access to a successful OBEer since I do not.

>>As far as I know the scientists still havn't taken up the offer to prove that it DOESNT happen (OBE,s) a $1 million reward as well,why don't they enter into the debate on a level playing field?<<

Well, I think the burden of proof here is on the OBEers. I mean I could say i think Saturn is made of cheese but it's up to me to offer proof, not the scientists to prove that it ISNT.

cya

Atlas

Hi Mobius

>>with all these lights & camera's rolling & T.V set<<

Again, I think this is an assumption that is not necessarily true. I can't imagine a scientist wouldnt afford the test subject all the conditions they require to do the OBE. It's not like they'd through them in some studio with a spot light and an audience.


>> which is stacked highly against the astral traveller.So that naturally the subject will fail & they can announce to everyone "Well that proves it folks,we can see that statistically & scientifically,there is no basis to this OBE concept whatsoever,so all the sponsors & financial institutions have nothing to worry about,keep the money rollin. OK now that we have Mr Bruces head,we can tell all the people he has helped,that it was all in their heads,who's next?".<<

The other problem here is that you have people like RB, who I respect, but who make their bread and butter with this stuff. I can understand why he might not want to subject himself to this kind of test because if he fails or can't perform, his living goes down the drain. It's only smart for him to say no.  BUT...not everyone who successfully OBEs regularly is making a living off of it or has some kind of "guru" status, nor do you have to be some kind of ascended spirit to have frequent/controlled OBEs. These are the people I would think would gladly come forward, at least ONE of them, and take this risk to win a bunch of money. So you fail the test...big deal. All you have to tell your friends was that you were hoping you'd luck out and win a million bucks.

Atlas

You make good points distant bell.

I used to be a fairly devout catholic, but then everything broke down for me about one year ago. I just started asking myself what i really DO believe and why.

In my opinion, everything is about power over you. Everyone wants a piece of your pie, just one more dollar. If they can't get it out of you willingly by offering you something in exchange (free market) then they will coerce/extort it out of you (government) or scare it out of you (religion). Just a simple statement like "faith is good" was something I never questioned until I recently analysed it. What does faith actually say about your character? Nothing, except that you are gullible. Because in order to have faith in something, you can't have evidence or proof otherwise you KNOW it, which is different (and bad!). You must believe without proof, which to me sends up the red flag of a charlatan.

So whose religious system without proof are you going to believe for no reason? That's the question. And since what....probably like 95% of people are the same religion as their parents/geographical area, it seems the whole issue is decided pretty randomly (where you happen to be born).

well, this might be rambling, I'm just writing down a few of the issues that have been on my mind lately religious-wise. It's 3:11 am here hehe

What *I* am getting a chuckle out of is watching all these people come up with all these excuses about how not ONE PERSON out of the 4 billion in the world can come forward and claim one of these rewards. But we've already been over all this in the Osama thread so I'm not going to hash it all up again here....

>>But the Occult, Paranormal, Supernatural, Metaphysical, Spiritual fields are nothing to do with conventional science.<<

I agree with this statement in terms of the astral dimensions and higher, but if the real time zone exists, as many claim it does, then it should be EASILY provable scientifically.

Atlas

>>I'm sorry Atlas, please forgive my seeming to appear rude, with the deepest respect, I regard your statement as just an excuse. If you honestly wanted that ability, and if that desire was truly burning in your heart... you would do it. I know you would. The reason why you don't is because you don't desire it that badly.

Though what you are saying is entirely valid. In the sense that I firmly believe that some time in the future it *will* be possible. I cannot for the life of me say when. But I just feel it that it will. Slowly but surely, groups will form with the courage and determination to search the Astral and seek the answer. Such an answer will be found, piece by piece, over *many* years of dedicated effort. It will be a truly monumentous task; akin to the discovery of DNA, for example, in the physical world.

Before you is a golden opportunity to be part of it... or you can sit on the sidelines and moan: it's your choice my friend.<<

Well, I am glad that you at least accept the fact that what I'm talking about is a legitimate question and SHOULD be possible

However I disagree that what I said was an "excuse". I'm not offended, but trust me, I would LOVE to have an OBE. I've had a few close calls. But I've been trying to do this for 4 years and I wouldnt have spent that much time on something if I didn't want to do it.

Atlas

>>For the answers you need to read through your post and substitute the word YOU when you talk of questions about why do not others... etc., etc. <<

Frank I don't see your point. I WOULD do all those things, if I had the OBE/RV ability. That's why i'm wondering where all the action is. I mean if i substitute I for all the "theys" in my post, it just confirms what I'm saying because it seems to me any normal person would use their abilities to help out others in cases like those. Trust me if I had the means to find a kidnapped little girl, I'm 100% positive I would do it. Thanks for the post.

Atlas

>>Whoa there - thats quite an absolute and sweeping statement! How do you know that? There may well be lots of very skilled psychics and OBEers discreetly helping the world, doing all the things you have said but:
a) You would rarely hear about it, all the little miracles these people may achieve would go completely unreported.<<

So what you are saying is that OBEers or RVers would AVOID high profile cases? they need as much help as anyone. It seems to me they would just take the cases where they thought their abilities would be of best use. I mean if an OBEer solved a high profile murder/ kidnap case, I doubt it would be "discreet". Your a) appears to me to be just as much of an assumption as mine, and also a sweeping statement. How do you know we aren't hearing about it because it's NOT HAPPENING?
Thanks for the post.

Atlas

Hi guys
Ok here are my thoughts. First, I think that's fine and dandy that Joe Mcmoneagle saw through a japanese woman's eyes. In fact, I saw him on a show a few years ago and was very impressed. However, that to me seems like a parlor trick. Why doesn't he look through OSAMA'S eyes (just an example). Why doesn't he do something USEFUL with this skill, if he has it. and I know i'm going to get the "but what is useful?" question. You know what I mean. Why doesn't he save someone's life with this skill? Why doesn't he ever "find" someone worth finding?
Those scientific tests are interesting, and I completely agree that there are many scientists who are NOT objective, and do not judge claims based on the evidence presented to support them but rather disregard them outright because of subject matter. Not very scientific. My problem is, regardless of scientific tests, if people had these abilities there would be MANY profound ways they could help human lives, and they don't. Locating disaster victims. Locating kidnapped persons. Locating criminals. Don't you think oppressive regimes like soviet russia or china would have legions of these people to locate political dissidents or find underground cells of rebels so they could be wiped out?
I really am not that concerned about whether someone is ACTUALLY leaving the body and not just having some sort of esp experience that SEEMS out of body. What I am interested in is knowing whether anyone can actually receive knowledge that they did not have beforehand regarding some fact or object or location in the PHYSICAL WORLD through the OBE experience. I guess that's the heart of what I'm after.
Jo, I totally believe that it is possible for things like hemisync to change the level of consciousness. Proof of that isn't really what I'm after personally, I think thats been pretty well documented.

Sorry for the length guys, i'm just very interested in this area of the subject matter

Atlas

Ok you guys...I swear sometimes you guys TOTALLY miss my point haha. Ok , FORGET osama bin laden. I didn't mean to stir things up with any anti-US anti-christianity folks here. It was merely used to illustrate a point of why can't this ever be DEMONSTRATED. The lid would be blown sky high if someone out of body OR RVing found Chandra Levy (or an equal situation). Simple Test. No takers though...hmmmmm....

Roger, I don't see why you think I was implying that you were irrational. I was simply saying that it didn't make sense to me, and if anyone HAD found a rational explanation for these questions, I would like the answer because I haven't found it yet and I won't accept wishy washy/new-agey answers that don't have some logic/reason backing them up.

Roger you said, "You can also take into account the proven scientific facts of those studies where projection has been tried under university-controlled circumstances to discover hidden objects in another room. It was a resounding success."

How come I've never heard of it then? This would be HUGE news. If you could give me some links or something I'd appreciate it because as far as I'm aware, there have been no credible studies of this phenomenon that were consistent and convincing.



Frank you said "You say you are rational, logical and pursue things scientifically... then why are you making an exception in this case?

I am a scientist, and the way I set out was to accept the phenomenon was real and try and disprove it."

I don't see where the exception here is. I also am accepting that it's true and trying to disprove it.
A) I have never had an OBE despite years of effort.
B) I think it is disheartening that this can't be proven and used for more practical purposes, SUCH AS finding survivors of crashes. Finding kidnapped people, etc. After all, advanced projectors are supposed to have access to the Akashic Records right? Where every thought idea and action has been recorded?

A I can understand. B I find fishy...

Thanks for the replies guys.

Atlas

See, it's weird for me because one minute I will totally believe all this astral projection stuff, and then the next I will have some serious doubts. This is one of them. I am a rational, logical person who pursues things scientifically. If this was REAL, if you could really travel around in the real time zone, then couldn't Robert and Romero and all the hundreds of others I'm sure exist like them, EASILY find Osama bin Laden? Couldn't they have quickly pinpointed survivors at the WTC? Couldn't they find where Chandra Levy is? And I'm aware that Robert says the realtime zone quickly fluctuates into the others, but with skill and discipline the real time state can be maintained for an extended period. Actually you don't even need the real time zone, just make a hop skip and jump over to the akashic records and look up our man osama. Sounds easy to me. I guess this gets back to the question, if this is real and not in the mind, then why can't anyone prove it?

>>If one were to consider "work" as pertaining to The Great Work, spiritual enlightenment, etc., then causing a holocaust, or raping someone would not "work" very well.<<

Well, but what is The Great Work and spiritual enlighenment? It's completely subjective. To you it may be one thing, to me it may be something else, it's only opinion really. I imagine Hitler only had the best intentions for Germany when he conducted his cleansing. So that also makes the idea of what "works" completley subjective. That's why I believe it's dangerous to a society to try to do away with a concept of an objective "right" and "wrong" because then it's no holds barred to achieve whatever one wants, so long as someone, anyone, believes it "works".

I think you are right on. I have encountered that A LOT in new age/spiritual forums. Actually I don't believe most of them are actually being tricked by any being or anything either. I think it's that they have severe self confidence and esteem problems and so create some bizarre scenario where they can have above normal importance to the destiny of the universe. Certain truths are only revealed to them, because no one else is "ready", that kind of thing. Again, I'm not necessarily saying that I've encountered that here, but you do run across a lot of people with messiah complexes in these types of places.