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Whether this was your question or not (I couldn't interpret it that well), this is the question I'm assuming: Why do we waste time talking about APing and not just doing it?

The simple answer to that is this: I have found that your success with APing (or as I like to simply call it.. lucid dreaming) depends heavily upon how much time you spend thinking about it and desiring it. This is one of those create your reality / affirmation linked things. So thinking and talking about it greatly increases your chances of actually DOING IT. Hope that makes sense. Also apart from that, as APing can be so diffilcult to achieve, learning techniques from others gives you more things to try so you can find what personally works for you. Also as these can be such amazing and at the same time perplexing and complicated experiences we like to share them with each other to find common ground and discuss the potential truth to it all.

Also I'd like to share a recent conversation I had in a lucid dream that relates to other posts in this thread. Won't detail the whole dream or conversation, but basically I was told "if its not real why bother doing anything at all?" This struck me on a grand scale because for one thing it was one of the few times I've ever had a seemingly non-expected/non-affected conversation with a character in my dream with which I was even thrown off by what I was told. The wisdom in this is simply that we DO do everything we do when it really all is meaningless isn't it? I mean we don't know what truly is real or not, what truly matters or doesn't. We do things to fill personal needs etc and don't fret the "real" of any of it. APing is no different. All of life is no different. Stop worrying about what's "real". Or to make it simple, I simply say anything you can perceive to be, is real.

Get in shape and improve your hygiene (if you don't have those already), gain confidence, go places where there are girls, and start asking them on dates.

Its an awesome spell, even if its a bit complicated. Works like a charm.

The arguing does absolutely nothing. You guys have completely different opinions, fantastic. Having a serious, pride-free, respectable debate of ideas is one thing, but that obviously isn't the case here. So why not just thank each other for your opinions, and bid each other farewell. It saves alot of anger between not only yourselves but everyone else reading the thread. Think about those other people.

My thought is, all 'negs' are simply what your friend originally thought they were. All the details of the attack give no proof as to them being real. The greatest proof of all that negs are not real for me is this: fear = negs, no fear = no more negs. People should try it sometime.

More importantly, even if they are real why not pretend they're not so you can control your fear and them wham, problem solved. Regardless of how you play the game of philosophy/theory on them the negs have been defeated.

Most everyone gets this. The details vary from person to person but its mostly all the same when it happens. I don't know what the monroe focus 10 technique is, but I seem to reach this scary vibration state (with all its accompanied weird sounds and sometimes visuals) when I try and "relax" and drift into a lucid dream rather than phasing into one with mind visuals. By mind visuals I mean picturing a dream sequence and jumping into it. Phasing makes the changeover extremely simple and painfree. I think this scary vibration state is the result of being inbetween so to speak. When you drift slowly from one state (awake) to another (dream) instead of making an immediate jump, you go through this sleep paralysis / vibration state. That's my opinion on the subject.

That being said, regardless of why/how it happens, if you find yourself in that state do your best to stay calm and unafraid, and try to roll out onto the floor. You'll either roll out successfully and be in a lucid dream state vibration free (if you have lingering fear when you do it things might be scary, so rid yourself of fear) OR rarely you may just wake up in your bed .

What you need to ask yourself is this... what does the cat (or just cats in general) mean to you? How do you feel when its there? Do you want it to be there? Since its been happening, do you now look for it to be there (expectation)? How might it be connected to other things you've experienced in dreams/sleepparalysis/etc even if seemingly unrelated?

Answering these questions may help you find the real answer you want.

Its all so and so said this and claimed this and that. There is never proof. If you know people who have made such personal claims I highly recommend asking for demonstrations- because otherwise you'll never find out the truth.

If you do plan to go ask for some demonstrations, be prepared for some very persuassive excuses =)

Here's a question for you: what do you believe a dream is?

NickJW, just because he comes and insults our beliefs doesn't mean you're in the right to do the same to him. In the future save yourself some steam and take the higher road.

Your assumption that seeing these words while in an OBE state will confirm that the OBE state is "real" (and by real I mean visiting the physical world) is however incorrect. It is still open up to a great deal of explanations and possibilities. In this OBE state we often experience hightened psychic awareness. Even if perhaps this test worked or the infamous card test worked, doesn't guarantee that you actually visited the physical world and instead simply had a pyshic-influenced event during the OBE. *THOSE* happen often.

So all I'm saying is, it can be used as evidence, but not proof. If you're looking for proof of the existance of psychic prediction, almost everyone on this board probably has a personal OBE story for you about it.

Proof of God comes from personal experiences alone. Quotes from scripture, while very possibly could be the true word of God, from a philisophical standpoint are still in fact words in a book written by human men and in that sense are generally not taken well by "intellectuals" who seek spiritual knowledge or whatnot. "Intellectuals" tend to rely on experiences and personal logic to create their beliefs and thus even if Christianity were the path they'd choose its often through alternate methods than the bible that they arrive there. In that respect intelligence is quite a hinderance.

In any case, I think you'll find over time with lots of experience in the field of out of body experiences that there is in fact a supreme BLUR between dream and real-time-zone. I have found that they are all 'dreams' and it is simply that the possibilities of location/events/people/futureprediction/metaphysical is just a grand variability in these dreams.. Proof, again, will always be highly personal and very subjective. There will always be the what if factor (what if its still not what I think it is).

Wow how to respond to this. The easy answer is he cannot watch you. Astral projection is really just personal mind space. Even though it is possible to see real existing environments or people they are simply created copies. Basically, none of it is real in the sense that the you that he may see isn't really you, just his mind's creation of you. People who 'astral project' as many like to call it may in fact spy on people and watch them or take part in immoral behavior like having sex with everything that moves HOWEVER it is completely separate from this physical world. You have nothing to worry about..

If I may offer a hypothesis, I think maybe I know why this works (or seems to work well). Some people lie down, or sit, and stare blankly into the distance or up at their ceiling with eyes open as a form of meditation. Ideally in darkness as well. As you relax your eyes and do that open eyed stare through-the-distance not really focusing on anything but very much alike to a day dream stare, you essentially start phasing when you focus on mind images. I think the greatest difficulty with normal phasing IS in fact closed eyes being uncomfortable. Thus with eyes open in a relaxed stare you can phase comfortably. However...... when staring straight out into the middle of a room or up into the ceiling there's alot of space for light/dust/wind to bother your eyes which ruins it.

This is where that scrying part comes into my hypothesis. Perhaps it isn't so much the importance of what you're using to scry with, but instead the different position you're using to stare with your eyes open. Instead of staring out into the distance where lots of things can aggrivate your eyes, you're staying downard at the floor, or perhaps straight forward but with very little space between you and the object which means there's an obstacle to reduce light/dust/wind straight into your eye. Basically rather than some scrying object being the unique cause of success, its just you happen to be doing something to reduce eye irratation and thus make the relaxed focus to phase with easier.

Example- when the sun is extremely bright, you stare at the ground.

Who knows...

Still normal..

My honest advice to you is this: everything you're experiencing is perfectly normal. We get various weird sensations during meditative / sleep practices. It comes with the territory. Don't bother with all the 'neg' ideas. Whether we know if they're real or not, which I don't think they are, humoring the idea of negs just multiplies your fear of them and makes you experience more negative things.. As for the girl you saw- simply put, things look weird out of your side vision. Nothing odd about that at all. Everyone experiences that.

I recommend you relax, let everything be. Don't worry about anything, just be easy with yourself and enjoy life some without all this 'supernatural' stress.

In the morning right after waking I just pull back the memory of the dream I was just having before I woke. I focus on it really hard and put my emotions into basically, and I'm simply pulled in and it becomes my real surroundings again. Takes a split second assuming I didn't wake up 'too' much. A key part is not physically moving after you wake up.

I've never managed to have an OBE from straight up meditation from being fully awake in the couple years I've been trying. That doesn't bother me too much actually. All my OBEs aka Astral Experiences aka Lucid dreams have happened during or after sleep sessions. Most of them happen after waking from sleep and going right back in. For a while I felt as though I had mastered them- I'd actually just pull the previous dream imagery into my head and focus on it which would suck me in. This was always generally easy if I remembered to actually DO it.

Nowadays I don't do that anymore. My lucid dreaming slowed down imo because of the culmination of understanding I was taught by them which is ultimately they are not that important to be focused on. Don't worry about all the elusive answers of greater reality and start LIVING YOUR LIFE. So my whole path led me to personal growth in the way of realizing its all about living this life to its fullest. All the spiritual understanding is in fact a fundamental part of that, but its not meant to be the main focus by any means. Its a means to an end basically.

Anyhow, recently I've been wanting to bring my lucid dreaming back to regular levels. Just for the unbelievable enjoyment I get out of them, and plus there's still so much I want to experiment with. My life is in order nowadays, so its not by any means going back on what I've learned. Anyhow, I seem to have lost the old way I used to do things. Not that I can't, but I started doing it differently and suddenly the experiences started changing. Instead of that 'phasing' approach where I focused into the dream, once I wake from sleep I simply relax and empty my mind and let myself fall into the dreamstate. However, it seems everytime this happens now I get an EXTREMELY violent sleep paralysis experience where it feels like my chest is about to explode as well as everything around me. At first I was thinking this is the whole natural fear thing causing a bad experience but the thing is I've gotten over fear completely because of previously long trend of bad lucid dreams and sleep paralysis. I can shutoff bad experiences by simply calming myself. But these now which were actually just raw uncomfortableness and overwhelmingness, didn't seem like negative attackers quite- especially since I was focusing on not being afraid so as not to spawn that stuff. So why were they still happening?

That's what I think I've figured out.. Are these vibrations, just really violent ones? It kind of makes sense.. Instead of directly phasing which is known for its ease and general lack of virbrations, I'm doing something that is in a sense making my mind fade away my body and let the dreamstate come to me, which could make sense that the vibrations exist in this kind of action. Which means next time it happens (tomorrow morning probably) if I can just hang on and stay completely calm through it I'll make it to the end. But I'm not sure if its worth it, perhaps I should focus on trying to go back to the phasing-type technique I used to use.

Easy way to find out what you want to know... confront the black hole next time. Take it head on and find out what happens.

If you don't mind, I'd like to take a jab at your dream Telos-

Perhaps the dream is wanting you to examine the details of your behavior, reaction, and so on a little more closely. You seek information and hold great importance to it. The dream dangled that knowledge over your head (in the way of offering this wise appearing man for you) and then snatched it away to get a reaction out of you. So look at your reaction, fear/anger that you have lost the information you held to great importance.. Maybe the lesson here is simply that the information is not as important as you think. Don't worry about knowing all the details of 'existance' and dreams and just enjoy it. Imagine if you had entered that castle and decided to simply sit and enjoy the scenery with the old man instead of desiring something out of it. I think the outcome would have been drastically different. Often we find the knowledge we were seeking when we do in fact STOP seeking it.

Very VERY nice. It would have been nice to read that a year ago, as I had to learn all of that by myself. And alot of it well described things I've been doing that I've barely been able to understand myself beyond "ok then I do that ONE weird thing..."

I think the most groundbreaking part of that is near the beginning when you talk about that mindstate you get in where you feel sounds. This has been the most intriguing part of my lucid dream process and I've never been able to describe it. I would compare it close to sleep paralysis in some ways. Weird things happen there. Its almost like reality itself dissolves much like how the lucid dreams later dissolve.

Let me give you some advice that I think will help you. Keep your eyes open for the next week while you meditate. Play with your focus a little. You'll very likely get scared out of your pants over and over. Nothing will ever happen though. You'll eventually relax and get over it.

Does it make sense to say that you would be unable to project from a position that you cannot fundamentally fall asleep from? Such as lying on my back.. It is simply impossible to fall asleep from there.. It means I don't fall asleep while meditating, but then I wonder if its also hindering me in that same sense in that I can't get deep enough? Because as far as I've realized, projecting is pretty much the same as falling asleep. So projecting from being fully concious (as opposed to waking up after sleep) is basically putting yourself to sleep and that is something I definately can't do on my back.

Nothing out of the ordinary. Our eyes can do very odd things when we give attention to them (which most people never do). Staring into space and relaxing your eyes and playing with your vision you can get all kinds of weird effects.

I've had 2 projections.. First one had no visual problems. Second one started out dark and blurry. I had totally forgotten such a thing was even possible. I first said clarity now, remembering the suggestion. It didn't work. Then I simply pulled in some energy, and voila.

"I myself tend to keep an altered awareness of the physical during the deepining of the trance in a mix and blend of things. Then again, my projections tend to be of the RTZ type."

I think this is really it.. While in trance I often have split second moments where I gain 100% vision of a scene in my mind. I would put it in comparison to say a 1 second glimpse of a lucid dream / projection type vision. So I guess that's pretty much the same.. You might see an RTZ image in that one second of sight or instead just gain one second complete clarity of whatever random dream imagery was in your mind at the time.