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Thanks for expounding on that, Major Tom. That's a gem. You're right - and it's a lesson I've been learning (again) recently.

In another example, people tell you, "well you're at the bottom now, but it can only get better." It's not true. Life has endless surprises. Since I've been back, as far as circumstances go, my life has only gotten worse. But the crucial thing wasn't that life was supposed to change and get better - I changed and now I cope better. Life isn't easy, and it's never going to get that way. It's about self-development, not external control.

For whatever reason, I'm strongly optimistic now despite what happens to me. If the ground opened up tomorrow and sucked me down into Dante's Inferno, I'd say bring it on. It's not an easy life that will make me happy, it's who I am that will. I can't lose with that.

A certain kind of "surrender" and "humility" towards a largely unknown wider reality in our current state of mind may be necessary to break out self-imposed limitations

Thank you, Major Tom, this makes perfect sense to me. My (OBE) limitations are self-imposed. I'll have to think about what you've said for quite awhile ... After reading it, I have this feeling like I'm on the edge, almost at that point of eureka for a concept that I need to discover.

This thought I find pops up, but that my current mindset rejects: Let the OBE find me. Relinquish thought of controlling it.

Hmm...

I agree with RJA. From personal experience, facing the fear and understanding what it represents is enormously important.

to Mactombs
Have you experienced an OBE  
A truly profound OBE would leave you with little or no doubt about the issue. Consciousness can separate from the physical body and survive indefinately. If you have not yet had an OBE I truly hope that you do experience one in the near future.

Yeah, I've experienced OBEs. They are profound, but there is still room for doubt. Hallucinations happen that have absolutely no validity. If hallucinations can be constructed by the brain, why not OBEs? Even if OBEs are real, who's to say they don't require a physical brain? I want to believe, but I don't have reason to throw away doubt.

Thank you Tvos and jub jub, I really appreciate it. I'm stable now (they wouldn't have let me out if I hadn't been)   . At the same time, after this experience, I felt like I had come back to someone else's life. I was in the hospital for a week (and lucky to get out that soon) ... when I got out, just driving felt like I hadn't done it in years. I learned a great deal in that time frame, though, a lot more than I can expound on right now.

You know what's eerie, that book you mention Tvos is very similar to the book everyone in the hospital was encouraged to read, called Reinventing Your Life.

Tvos, I will send you a PM about specifics, since you asked.

It's just hard for me to find NDEs and OBEs as convincing, since I know how enormously simple chemicals can drastically change your outlook on life. The brain is so complex, it's hard to fathom what is generated by it, and what is outside.

Tvos, it happened in April. I attempted suicide. There really isn't more to say other than there was nothing, not even memory. If you can imagine a black hole in your life, that's pretty close.

Just this week one of my friends committed suicide. I guess death is on my mind lately. I don't care for sympathy, I just want to know. Not believe. I want to know that all the hell and misery everyone goes through isn't worthless.

It seems like entropy applies to everything - all the good things in life wither and die.

I guess I'm coming off negatively. Actually, since then I've learned that people do indeed make their own realities. I never would have figured out what that meant before. Anyway, as much as I'm intrigued or inspired by other people's validations, it just isn't the same as experiencing them, not even close.

As much as I like to believe in the afterlife, for me, there's just something missing.

Sleeping pills? Yeah, when I tried those once, I was seeing ghosts and all kinds of spirits, plus I thought I swallowed a gallon of fish eggs for some reason. Didn't sleep, though.

The problem with using these as opportunities is the physical memory side of it. You never remember. And if you do, you don't remember much, and it was all out of control.

When you listen to boxed nirvana 2, do you leave it playing in your ears through the whole OBE? and can you hear it when you are projecting?

Yeah, I leave it on the whole time. I've never noticed the entrainment going when I've even been in deep trances ... I just feel really heavy, cozy, expansive ...

Recently I went on a hike I go on every summer up and around a waterfall. If you asked me if I noticed the waterfall sound the whole time, I wouldn't even think of it. Only when am I trying to notice it, then it comes back into my attention. So, no, I don't worry about entrainment being intrusive to my experience. If it became so, then I might just turn it off.

I love the purple blob!

It never even occurred to me that my mantra was funny ... I just started it after reading Job's post about the "O" and when I was annoyed about the monkey chatter in my mind. I guess it is pretty silly - but for me it really works. I guess it's just part of that learning-to-find-your-own-way?

How do we find this Golden Syrup? Is there a map, mayhaps, were there be dragons? It's like the modern Golden Fleece!

Exploration is the big one. I'm curious. It feels good, too ... at least, most of the pre-OBE sensations do. It's neat to think I could leave my body and go places I couldn't normally go (maybe see what some of those deep-sea fish look like?) ... and even in ordinary locations, there's always things visible to you that you wouldn't normally see.

I've always wanted to try to verification thing, but it seems every time I try to do it, I can't get out.

Lately, though, I've found the (so far) most effective practice yet. It's kind of premature to make any statements so far, but both sessions resulted in parts of my body getting out, deep trance, energy sensations, etc. Yesterday, I got into a deep trance fast, then felt my energy body getting sucked under the bed toes-first ... a really powerful sensation. Then I snapped back, so fast that my legs in the physical jumped a few inches off the bed. It was neat.

Anyway, the practice is pretty simple: I lay on my back, arms to the side, put on the headphones and listen to "Boxed Nirvana II" (this entrainment for some reason works really well for me). I try a mantra (thanks, Job, for the post on this) ... my mantra, however, goes like this: "Blah blah blahblahblah blah, blah blah blah. Blah blahblahblah blah." (I tried "O", but it didn't work as well). It's like I'm saying the monkey chatter that's normally there, except I'm just cancelling it out and saying "blah". I keep the back of my mind focused on saying it, and it works very well for keeping my awareness into mind-awake-body-asleep.

I'm feeling very enthusiastic about this.

I think your goal, jub jub, is definitely realistic. I'm fairly certain you can achieve it. Then we can all go meet Tvos and Selski for treacle tarts!

As compelling as NDEs are, I think they're the exception experience rather than the rule.

I have personal experience with the NDE. What was it like? Perfect nothing, not even memory. The atheist's death.

I have to doubt that OBEs and NDEs are good evidence for life after death. I think it's impossible to know until you're dead (in which case, you might never know anything again). It is possible validations are either mis-reported, or memories changed to fit facts, or simply a function of some power of ESP that only lasts as long as the brain.

It's possible when your eyes kept trying to open, that you were already in a deep trance, and your astral eyes were trying to open. It's happened to me several times before. That would explain why you saw the lights ... are you certain that your eyes were physically open?

[not]

El-Bortukali, eugenics may be the stupidest idea smart people ever believed in (yes, I know the long list - you forgot Telsa in there, too). Did you know that scientists still don't know the first thing about genes, why certain genes manifest and others don't? A person is not their genes, and anyone who tells you science says so is full of it (Dawkins does not speak for science, BTW). What kind of philosophy is it for you to believe your genes aren't worth passing on? Astral projection has nothing to do with your genes. If eugenics ever happened, humanity would be doomed to extinction - you really need to learn something about mutation, etc. But this is not for this thread. I think I'm just getting riled up because I used to believe the exact same thing as you ...  

Donal, it sounds like your shyness has a lot to do with the atmosphere you had at school. Maybe you don't think you're thinking negative things, but you are - you still have the voices of all those bullies telling you you're fat, etc. inside your head. You need to look deep inside your thoughts, analyze them. Ask, why do I feel this way? Realise there are good reasons, and there is the honest reason.

Awesome, and first conscious OBE, too, that's a double bonus!

I was jealous when I read "Ok, I was getting really frustrated because this morning I had trouble inducing Sleep-Paralysis. After being in for 10 hours, I somehow managed to induce it FINALLY." I can't willfully induce paralysis at all (yet) ... I only get it when I wake up in the mornings (sometimes). That's really neat you can do this.

I thought that was a good picture of the robe. I like seeing illustrations to go with things ... anyway, it sounds like an entity, alright. I've never seen a normal-looking one before. When you come across them, if you want, you can just look at them steadily, try with your mind to make them disappear - if they don't disappear, look at it with a neutral intent asking what it wants. I've heard stories where these "scout" entities wind up taking the projector for a ride to some really neat places.

When you're OoB, generally things never look exactly the same as when you're awake. My guess is, you were in an astral representation of your bedroom. No clue what the specific imagery meant.

If you demand "clarity now!" (affirmations work great for me) and keep saying it, you'll probably morph into an "etheric" RTZ area. The first time I ever got out, I kept demanding clarity until things were realer than real life. It was unbelievable.

You have to be careful, though, that you don't make the mistake of thinking that you accidentally woke up and just go back to sleep, when you're actually in the RTZ. I've done that so many times. Once, I was so angry that my eyes popped open and I "woke up", I went to turn the fan off, and my hand went right through it. (If your eyes spontaneously open, check to make sure you really are awake.)

Lots of good times ahead for you! I hope your brother has success as well.

Well, actually there's the 360-vision in there, which is a neat side-effect of not being limited to your physical ... the trapped-in-your-body feeling could be several things: sleep paralysis; the reality of your belief that you must be trapped in your body; possibly a lack of etheric energy (for those who go with the theory that energy/chi is needed for projections); or, you may have been aware seeing hynpogogic imagery.

My guess is, you were in Monroe's Focus 12. If you don't know anything about Monroe's consciousness road-map, that's okay, because it's just a road-map with focuses for milestones - just a model. It's the equivalent of a deep trance, with astral overlays.

Seeing as you did this in a study hall, and you can call the vibrations "the normal vibes", I'd say you're doing very well.

I've never flown in an OBE. Usually have a hard time moving at all, like my body is made out of lead, or I run around. I bounce off walls and doors instead of going through them, too.

Argh, it just makes me that more determined to get OoB so I can work on some fun skills like this ...

... it's another reason why I prefer traditional OBEs to Phasing ... it's the hard way (to move around), but I like it.

Definitely not a party drug.

For me and those I've sat with, 5-10 minutes for the peak, it lessens after that, after effects lasting for maybe 30-45 minutes.

My friend had one of those, live a different lifetime in 5 minutes kind of experience with it. Most people forget all the details of their experience quickly, however.

The way things are going, this will probably a scheduled controlled substance in all the U.S. fairly soon.

i get this spinning sensation when meditating sometimes.. is that the same thing you are talking about

I think it is related. It means your mind is separating from your physical sense of balance. You become disoriented. If you're doing an OBE exit at the time, I could see this turning into actual out-of-body spinning.

That's really cool you managed to stop spinning, Selski, with using your thoughts. I really need to do this instead of struggling to move - stop and use my mind.

Yes, I see eugenics as negative. Hitler was a great believer in eugenics ...

Donal, you're 19, so I wouldn't worry too much. I think you'll get less shy as you become more comfortable with who you are and what you want ... and knowing that will make you attractive.

The method you gave sounds pretty cool.

Another one I might suggest is, anytime you think about something negative, like, "I'm scared this person will think I'm stupid," immediately cancel the thought out and replace it with a positive one. Do this for all negative thoughts. It's worked out great for me - especially if you pair that with total honesty with yourself.

well,in my opinions relationships are not worth all the hassle and possible complications.
also I'm an eugenicist.
i believe that only the best specimens have the right to reproduce.

Ever been to a trailer park in Kentucky? The best specimens reproduce far less.

Eugenics ... you really have a negative outlook, don't you? Try have a positive attitude for once. Don't hang so much worth on being un-single. There are plenty of other things to worry about ... Why focus on being co-dependent on someone who isn't even there yet? I think people are attracted to people who have their lives together. I'd work on that. Women can smell desperation.

Heat would mean the expenditure of energy. Probably a lot of it, if we're speaking theoretically here with paranormal things - to manifest in the physical, or to do paranormal acts, it would take energy, and therefore the sensation would be cold, not hot.

It is more likely, in my opinion, that a feeling of heat would come from your own body, or maybe from your own mind. I think this would be a physiological or psychological effect.

Yeah, there's a lot of forum drama. It's interesting stuff. If I were going for a doctorate in sociology, I might form my thesis around it.

How would you find out for sure if you are an indigo child and also how do you find out what color your aura is? If anyone can check mine, please tell me cause it something that I would like to know.

Why not check your own aura out? Look in a mirror. The wall behind you is probably white, so that's good, the easier to notice colors with. Just relax and focus on a point about a foot past you. Retinal fatigue is

not

seeing auras ... you can test if it's retinal fatigue if it's the opposite color of whatever you're looking at - for instance, red things will look green, yellow looks blue, etc. Retinal fatigue happens fast (I agree that it probably even happens instantly). So don't get confused there. Don't try too hard, either. Practice all the time. It's easy to develop.

How often do you hear someone putting the blame on their ADD whenever they do something wrong? "Sorry for lashing out at you, I have ADD" "Ya, I cnt realy typ beter cuz i hav ADD"

I have ADD so I don't believe you. Nah, just kidding. It doesn't matter if you have depression, ADHD, or cancer - using it as an excuse is self-defeating. If anything, ADHD is an asset.

No, in Frank's model, the way Job describes the causal "I've been there, and things have been clear (as clear as my most heightened level of consciousness in the physical world)." - it sounds like Frank's FoC3.

The key of the prolonged vowel (a form of meditation) is to bring about 100% concentration and mental performance (to short-circuit random thoughts). This doesn't have the effect of reducing the wits, only temporarily sharpening them.

Makes sense. I still think I'd go crazy trying to focus on the sound of a vowel for an hour, though. That's not easy at all. I find that once my mind clears, if only for a moment, I hear voices and conversations. If I pay attention to those, it's the same as getting lost in my own inner babbling.

I'm trying to find the ADHD's way to mental clarity ... I know it's not fashionable on these forums to believe in such things, but even if you think of ADHD as a grouping of symptoms which occur most of the time (everyone has some of the symptoms some of the time) ... Anyway, I think the clue is not sensory deprivation, but sensory overload. Watch 3 TVs at once, plus play a video game and listen to music while simultaneously doing progressive relaxation exercises. Much easier for me than focusing on one vowel ...

ok, i always hear about how ghosts and such are usually sensed as a coldness. are they ever experienced as heat?

Not that I've ever heard of. However, "hot flashes" that aren't really hot flashes can sometimes be a prelude to a seizure.

The theory behind ghost and paranormal activities having coldness is that energy is converted out of air molecules, and whenever you take the energy out of something, it becomes cold.

It was enjoyable, but not brilliant. It still leaves me of the opinion that there's yet to be a movie made of a book that's as good as the book

I donno ... I felt that book was one of the worst hack jobs I've ever read. His writing style is atrocious. The movie was better ... the only way I could see the book as being better is because it had more content and puzzles.

If Jesus got married and had children, how would that be any different? It would be for the dogmatic - but, they have a protective shield of denial up at all times, anyway, so not to worry. Besides that, how would it be like to know someone called Jerry Christ who installs cable for a living and apparently can't find a pair of pants that will sufficiently cover his hind end when he crouches?