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I dig snake symbolism. Once you start digging, you find that it symbolizes most everything AND it's opposite.

Start with this link: http://www.dreamsnightmares.com/snakes.html

quote:the snake being a symbol of transformation. Snakes are often seen as symbols of life, death and rebirth. In North American native tribes, the shedding of the snake's skin is associated with life and a new beginning.

In writing about Snake Symbolism, Gillian Holloway, Ph.D. wrote, "People who are dying or who have lost a loved one often dream of snakes, at or near the time of death. For whatever reason, these dreams seem involved with the psychic awareness of the transition from this life to the next...."

Carl Jung talks about a similar connection between earth and heaven in his discussion on the snake as a symbol for medicine. In Man and His Symbols, he writes, "perhaps the commonest dream symbol of transcendence is the snake, as represented by the therapeutic symbol of the Roman god of medicine Aeseulapius, which has survived to modern times as a sign of the medical profession. This was originally a nonpoisonous tree snake; as we see it, coiled around the staff of the healing god, it seems to embody a kind of mediation between earth and heaven."

Snakes are also seen as symbols representing evil. The bible uses the symbol of the serpent in the Garden of Eden to represent Satan. In other cases the snakes is seen as a phallic symbol

Then - from http://www.mtroyal.ab.ca/programs/arts/english/write98/hhaberl2.htm

quote: Carl Jung captures the essence of the serpent symbol:



It is ... equally the symbol of the good and bad, of Christ and the devil... It is an excellent symbol for the unconscious, perfectly expressing the latter's sudden and unexpected manifestations, its painful and dangerous intervention in our affairs, and its frightening effects (McGuire 374).



Jung proposes that a fear of snakes is actually a fear of the unconscious psyche. Lawrence's narrator, similarly, shames the instinctual method by which he assaulted the snake:



And immediately I regretted it.

I thought how paltry, how vulgar, what a mean act!

I despised myself, and the voices of my accursed human education (64-66).



Feared is not the snake, but the human psyche, the unconscious will, and the serpent symbol itself. The narrator cannot transcend beyond these instincts; he cannot control the subliminal need to extract the snake from his realm—and this is what he fears. A struggle exists. The narrator cannot escape the unconscious ideological view, yet he wishes to.

Like the snake shedding its skin, the narrator wants to shed his biases. The snake, "deliberately going into the blackness", is free of the psychological restraints of the narrator (53). Unlike the snake, the narrator cannot hide himself from humanity. Symbolically and physically, he is trapped. In his pajamas, standing and waiting, the narrator "felt so honored" (34). However, he must question the danger of cowardice, perversity, humility, and of course dignity. Even in the "deep, strange-scented shade", out of any man's view, the narrator is exposed to humanity's eye. Even alone, he is watched: by himself and the unconscious forces that condition him. Suitably, "Snake" has been described as being about "the failure of man to take an appropriate place in the physical universe" (Hosbaum 133). The narrator does not belong in the underworld of the snake, yet he is frustrated with the symbolic restrictions of civilization.

"Pettiness" the narrator expiates, for his prejudices, his psychological limitations, and his inability to escape the voices of symbolism (74). He regrets: "And I wished he would come back, my snake" (67). The snake, "because it casts its skin, is an [Egyptian] symbol of renewal...", and indeed the snake will come back (McGuire 268). It may not be the same golden snake; it may not be a snake at all, but the symbolic boundary that ensnared Lawrence's narrator will continue to ensnare humanity. Like the serpent symbol, the sense of frustration is rejuvenating and relative, not only "on the day of Sicilian July", but always (21).

Also:

quote:snake the snake is in virtually every mythology synonymous with sex. (Christianity) the snake causes Adam and Eve to discover sex. (tantric yoga) two snakes are thought to run along the spinal chord -- having something to do with spiritual forces, life forces, sexual forces. (Freud, Jung) the snake symbolizes libido, life forces, or sexual forces. (Other) The snake may also represent wisdom, healing (cf. the staff of Aesculaps, the Greek god of healing); libido; Lucifer; birth of consciousness; god-like, but mortal; power over nature; separation from nature; Mother Nature; the mother of life, the one who will ultimately swallow her offspring; rebirth; medicine; renewal, rebirth; is a reptile, phallos; part of gardenofeden

You can find tons more.

Hi!

I have some thoughts about the snake but I'll put them in the other thread that has snake in the title.

You know what, we can't possibly "know" for certain whether something is a neg or not, so that leaves us with the choice of whether to treat an experience like the one described, on instinct or not. Leyla's instincts are that this punker and her ghost are both harmless. Faceless' instincts seem to be otherwise.

I think as long as each of us are doing their best (trying to act out of decent motivation and so on,) we shouldn't get caught up in defining every spirit that comes along. It's a waste of energy. Besides which, plenty of people NOT on this board, would say that NONE of it was any more than a weird misfiring of neurons causing some strange hallucinatory states. Well, their instincts tell them that! There are a lot of opinions in the world!

Hi Jen,

I am curious what your motivation is for going outdoors. My motivation has been in the past, to go outdoors because I am trying to get somewhere distant, that is not in my house. Ex, last time I tried to visit a friend. But, I didn't know the way to my friend's house. I thought the trick of focusing on the friend would bypass the need for a specific route.

I think that rooms in the house stay fairly solid because we are familiar with them - but if the goal somehow involves passage through some unknown (like my trip to my friend's house) then maybe the conscious knowledge that we don't "know" the way throws a kink in the system.

Next time, try going outdoors simply because you want to see the paint on the house (something you know.) See if there is a fluctuation when you are outdoors looking at the paint. If there isn't, then you know that it isn't the act of going out that matters, but rather the act of going somewhere known vs. unknown.

Well that's my theory anyway and I'm sticking to it.

Two separate experiences.

In one, I was awake all night praying to meet my guardian angel. Finally fell into a fitful sleep. Woke up the next mroning early and continued begging to meet my guardian angel.

Nothing, nada zip. Kept begging for anything - looked around and noticed two arcs on the wall. I was at a hotel and the arcs were shadows from the morning sun but I couldn't figure out what made them. SO I went to stand between the shadows and the window to try to figure out what those two arcs (I was thinking wings) were from. I looked at the window, couldn't figure it out. So I turned my head to look at the wall behind me, see if I was lined up with the arcs. I saw my reflection on the wall, with an arc sprouting off each shoulder.

Interpret it however you like. My interpretation is still fuzzy on it, something like your angel is as close to you as you are to yourself.

Second experience, same time frame but later --- I had heard that you can know your angel's name. So I started praying to dream my angel's name.

I woke up the next day with a memory of a name - Ashmarrath. No clue why that name. No memory of the interaction, just wonke up knowing that I had learned the name the previous night. A few months later I was in a store and all these angel pins were out - each had a name on it. They all started with "Ash-" which really struck me. None of them were "Ashmarrath."

I asked Ocallah (online spiritualist who sometimes visits Afterlife Knowledge) what the name might mean, and she said "Ash-" means to destroy through fire. She suggested I look up "Marrath" in the dictionary.

Turns out it is the name of a Biblical city, it means Bitterness. So Ashmarrath, I believe, means to end bitterness through fire.

This fits well with my life.

I don't really know the answers to your questions, but my guesses are:

Have you met him or her yet?  - Yes, sort of.

Do they live normal lives just like us?  -No

Are they evolved beings?  -Evolved? Maybe, different? Yes.

What is our connection with them?  - Maybe they care about us?

How can she be looking over me if she is living her own life?  -see answer above, they aren't living lives like us.

What did you learn from him/her? - that (s)he is THERE. And the name.

Any thoughts about my experience? -I'm curious what happens next!

Hi Amber,

I don't know if you can use it directly or not. I think it is the crown chakra you feel. When I cleared my throat chakra last year I started feeling the higher chakras including the crown much more easily.

I try to expand the feeling, hold the energy sensation there for periods of time, that sort of thing. The last few days I have taken to doing the energy circuit again, and have felt the energy sponge through most of the chakras including the crown. I think that doing the circuit led to the experience I posted yesterday over on "OBE experiences."

Bottom line, in my opinion its great that you feel this, and you can use it to sense energy patterns in your body, but if there is a way to use the sensation to trigger an OBE directly, I haven't found it yet!

I don't get this idea of meditating/sleeping. I thought the two were different? SOmeone asked about meditating all night. You said you were meditating and then woke up. I am very puzzled.

If you are in a deep trance, is that like sleep?

(Sometimes my pre-exit vanishes for no reason, sorry I can't help you out on that.)

Hey there.

I like eavesdropping on other's conversations in my head too  - I agree with David, it's interesting.

But about holding a quiet mind. It is easier the more you do it, and that is true whether you're practicing for the first time ever or again after a break for some time. I am having trouble finding that quiet spot as easily as last summer, but I think I can get there with a little more dedication.

But I had a realization a few days ago - There is a quiet space before you reach a completely quiet mind, where it's not that the messages are gone, but rather that they aren't articulated into words. I think it is words that are so distracting, this insistent voice saying "Okay, after I finish here I need to make dinner for the kds..."

I am fascinated by the progression from one state to another, and I think it's neat that there is a place after the words stop, where the ideas are still there - right on the edge - almost presenting as impressions - but they don't take you away in that form, they just sit there quietly.

I wonder if learning to keep the running dialog in a state of impressions on the edge, rather than as words that demand your attention, is a way to become aware of impressions that can't be easily articulated. (i.e. I wonder if this is a useful state in its own right.) My few experiences with RV, for instance, seemed to involve a state of being able to discern impressions, not words or dialog. I suspect these states are similar if not the same.

And I know that you can go into a limbo quiet place beyond that, I just wanted to mention this stopping point along the way since I have been seeing a lot of it lately! Maybe if you look, you'll see it too.

(Squeak, I love the Simpsons.)

A lot of the following is stream of consciuosness, hypothetical. YOu may consider it a waste of your time.

An interesting exercise to try: See how you behave when with different people. Don't simply reflect on it now, but rather spend the upcoming day seeing if you can be aware of your thoughts, behaviors, and beliefs through your interactions with different people.

I am finding that even what I believe changes depending on who I am with.

I think, what I "am" is incredibly flexible. (I think James said something like that too.) Maybe I am just a relative stable continuity of awareness. I'm aware of what this body was experiencing 30 years ago, but I am not that person anymore.

Why are we separate? Well, we aren't really. We are a group, we agree on things. How about the cells in our body? I think we are just a larger analogy of cells in a body. Do our cells have individual consciousness? Not the way we think of consciousness. Does our group society have consciousness? Not the way we think of consciousness. But you know, maybe there are different levels. We perceive separateness only because of the level we are at. Now, part of this particular paragraph is pretty silly, but whoever is enjoying thinking about these questions might like to think about levels of individuals and groups and how maybe we only perceive our consciousness and separateness the way we do --- because of the level in the system that we are at.

I "am" also --- enjoying the mystery unfolding.

In my experience, attempting a projection (without success) can interfere with my sleep over the course of days/weeks. I get more tired.

In my experience also, successfully projecting is a blast but drains me in a different way. I buzz around all day on the high, but can't project again for some period of time and it feels like I have exhauisted my etheric energy stores. It feels like a different sort of energy than what gets replenished by sleep.

Your experience may vary.

My opinion is - hemi sync helps, but is not necessary. My best experiences were not related to technology. They were just me and intent and very strong need.

Technology will not get you out of your body on it's own. I don't think. It will help, if you have a start in that direction.

At the moment, if I am really intent on projecting I will put on hemisync and have a 50/50 chance of success. But usually I am not intent on it, so most nights I just go to bed. I still project during the "normal" nights, for one reason or another. Let's say one night every few weeks I'll project, not trying. If I AM trying and put on hemisync, the odds go up that I'll succeed.

And these experiences still are not quite what I "want."  But they are quite adventurous.

I think you should see what you can do on your own. The bulk of the work is stuff like identifying personal restrictive beliefs, fears, learning to quiet the mind - it depends on you, but the bulk of the work is just that - personal work.

In my opinion.

Hiya, Frank.

In one breath you say my child didn't die, in the next you say you are with dead people every morning.

[]

I appreciate what you're saying, but recommend against that approach in general with the bereaved, particularly out and about.

But using that philosophy, no pain is real. Well, that's fine. But it doesn't help whoever it is that's hurting. It has been over seven years since our child died, I don't really hurt from it anymore, but I do recognize that such an event threatens most people's 'belief systems' pretty profoundly. (Those people who experience a devastating event first-hand, that is.)  So when the context is relevant I mention how I got started in OBE, because if my belief system hadn't been damaged, I never would have exited in the first place. It was relevant here because we were discussing my use of the word 'trauma.'

Finally, I 'see' my child frequently.  'Tisn't the same as raising her in our consensus reality.

Love,

Patty

Hi Dani,

Welcome!

Umm,,, I sometimes (specially in the morning) believe I'm awake - I see what I think are my arms, or legs. I feel them, they feel solid and real. Then I realize that I wasn't in a normal state of wakefulness, because I become really awake and see that my arms or legs were on the bed the whole time.

I think those are partial separations.

I don't know what the second one might be. Maybe third eye vision? Maybe someone else knows.

Your english is much much better than my ... ummm,,, I don't know your native language. But your english is fine.

Hi Again,

My two early experiences...were not immediately post-traumatic. in brief, our child died, it was emotionally devastating. Looking for a way to survive this strain, I sought help from a higher power. I began to feel "energy sensations" for lack of a better word. I thought I was being possessed. I fought it. I made it eventually go away.

Several years pass, I decide the sensations were pre-exit symptoms. I try to re-create them, within a week I have two very brief, fairly convincing (oh my god, here I am, complete, fully aware, standing in my bedroom without a body) experiences.

I had never meditated, and attribute those experiences to something like "need to know" and perhaps some sort of etheric unbalance or overload that allowed the experience.

I suspect that part of the subsequent difficulty in having as strong an experience is because I am more balanced. Is that good or bad? (rhetorical).

but I began meditating and all that, and have had an active, inspirational, and satisfying series of odd experiences since. When I try to verify them I succeed in small ways.

At any rate - with regards to the idea of having all of one's faculties - I don't know if folks here have that or not. As for myself, usually the experience is too brief to test all the systems. on average I could probably report on two or perhaps three systems per experience, and they vary. I regularly have problems - like not seeing early on, or not being able to fly.

I rarely hear - or rather i hear in odd ways. Sort of buzzing quietude. Motion seems slow-mo. I don't make sound when I walk that I can tell, but I often feel the carpet under my feet.

Things tend to be far more tactile or sensate than in dreams, but more hazy than in "real" life.

My only experience with hyperrealism was in-body. I was trying to perceive what was on a high shelf. (I was trying to leave my body to accomplish this.) I 'heard' a helper say "Just BE at the shelf!" so I did that, and my perception was that my hand alone was at the shelf feeling what was there in minute detail. (My awareness was still firmly planted in my head.)  The object that my husband had placed there - I could feel so easily and completely. more real than the keys I'm typing on. I verified it afterwards.

But no, I have not had an experience where I am fully assimilating from all my systems (sight, hearing, feeling, etc) in a hyperreal way. I have to direct my attention to one system at a time and wherever my focus is, I can make something out. Often it is NOT as real as waking consciousness, but still verified later.

One thing these experiences lead me to - is the realization that even IN waking consciousness we are not aware of all the input that is coming in. We focus on one area or another. I see parallels with altered consciousness.

I am presently happy with where I am, and you are happy too - Thank you for clearing up your position for me! I am not concerned with convincing others either, and am content with calling my experiences as I see them.  You asked what my goal is - I guess my goal remains to grow (making progress) and to verify (stuck in a holding pattern presently.) I'd like to more fully know that I will survive death, because I think that will help me feel more unfettered to live more fully. Sort of like the fear of death seems to affect my choices in a persistent, almost unrecognizable way. I'd like that not to be the case.

Thanks -

[]

Way to go! I love reading these - don't now how I missed yours before.

About different techniques, and the idea that if we just get good enough we'll be able to produce this sort of thing more often....like we're making a personal recipe....

I keep finding that it changes. What works, what doesn't, what practices lead to what sensation, etc etc etc.  Waking up mid-night used to work great. Naps used to be a prime time for projecting.

Now, not so much. My sleep has changed. other things work. I don't think i have advanced necessarily, but my opinion as a result of the ongoing changes is that ya gotta go with the flow.  

jouni, this is so cool. I will definitely stay tuned.

Welcome, Adam (got that off your profile)!

I was maybe 32 and under severe stress when I started projecting.

Besides ROPE, you can try what works for me sometimes - Allow your body to fall asleep as you try to keep your mind alert.

What happens for me is that my mind will drift off to sleep along with my body, then will snap back to awareness - this will happen again and again. Eventually when my mind snaps back to awareness, my body is so far gone that I can pull out of it.

I know I'm separating because I can feel myself pulling away from my body. It's like taffy, all sticky as the two parts separate. Sometimes I can see a single body part lifting out of body - and it's clearly not physical, I can see through it or something.

There's lots of variations.

When I'm out, things arent what I expect. Example, usually the experience is much shorter than I would like. things don't always match up to the physical world, and I don't realize it til later, I can't do all the things I expect - like fly, etc.

But it is still really fun, and you will experience your own thing anyway so don't let me get you down. One other technique that helps me is dream journaling. Write down your dreams - every time you wake up, middle of the night or morning, write them down - Your recall will improve and you will start to have more awareness while your body is sleeping.

The big thing is firm committed intent, in my opinion. Be determined, for example, even if you are lying there and sleep seems so attractive - you might think "I'll give up for tonite and try tomorrow" - DON'T. Don't give up. Maintain firm intent to become aware while your body is dead to the world.

Hi.

We all come to these sorts of questions from a unique/individual perspective. I am currently of the opinion that life is a process of individuation, each of us individuates into our own unique self.

For example, in my perception of self and existence, there is not a lot of room (or experience with) "negative entities." I don't really believe in them. They aren't in my landscape. But they ARE in other people's experience. I don't know how to reconcile this except to think that perhaps we each have our own path to growth, and my best path doesn't (currently) involve "negatives."

A possible conclusion of this perspective is that I can't answer specifics of your question for you. But your ongoing self discovery is obvious!  

That being said and for what it is worth, your observations are consistent with my own experience. But also, for what it is worth, I personally believe that one of the major contributors to personal growth is precisely the sort of tension that you see between "David" and your sense of more pure conscious awareness. (I personally believe that tension between any two ... umm.... opposites? can contribute a lot to growth.) So in my opinion, we don't benefit from eliminating one or the other. Maintaining awareness and dynamic balance between two discrete states (awareness of self vs daily David) in my opinion is more likely to persist, and more valuable, than somehow 'merging' the two states into one (or abolishing one state in favor of the other.)

Finally, my views are simply my views. I hope this post does not sound like I am trying to impose what is currently working for me, on anyone else.

Rodentmouse:



You are wonderful.

The way that meditation is not what you expected ---- is similar to  the way that reducing the chasm (allowing the knowledge of self during normal daily grind) manifests.

It may not be what you envision it will be, but one day you will realize that it is happening in an unexpected way.

(Ex, it is currently easy for me to remember to breathe and focus on breath frequently during the day. The act of focusing on breath reminds me of what I experience during meditation.  As recently as a few months or a year ago, remembering to periodically focus awareness on breath as a matter of course - was very challenging. It was a chasm between one state of awareness and the other.)

I absolutely love your posts. You strike me as so honest and forthright and wonderful, and it is clear that you are determined, committed, and making consistent progress, growth.

Is Ki the same as Chi?

If yes, then from what I have heard - pressure when you push it (I have only tried to hold it in a smaller and smaller space) either means there is blockage, or alternatively that you are a natural at whatever you are trying. Take your pick, or maybe see if both apply.

Yellow and orange foods tend to have more beta carotene in them. And vitamin A, a related compound. You could search for these compounds on google and see if any health-related sites come up that ring true for you.

As to color and the chakras. I heard a few months back, that each chakra has it's own color. I'll dig around to find it. This is a bit removed from your question but may be of interest. Oh - found it, it is a series of posts on another mb, I started the string:

quote:
You mentioned color relating to chakras. Wow! You know, I have seen (through impressions, not strong visuals) different colors while meditating. What I found so interesting was that I can recall seeing the colors up through the throat chakra (most frequently reds and blues), but I have not seen the higher colors (purple, golden, white.) The reason this is so interesting is because the last blockage I cleared was the throat chakra! And as I mentioned elsewhere, since that clearance in May I have had much better sensation in the higher chakras. I haven't approached meditation with the interest of seeing color since then, and now I am most eager to see if I will see purple, golden, and white.

I wonder why different chakras would have specific colors. Naturally there is association with white = purity, and red = blood/life force ---- so those associations make sense. But why would the throat = purple? Etc.

How interesting. Gemeni, thank you for pointing me towards your post on CPL. I'd love to hear more about your meditations, your technique, what you have found through the practice. You sound disciplined. I was good for a couple months through the summer, and then I entered a dead zone where every meditation was flat and empty. After a few weeks of that I decided to take a break - and I need to recommit.

Anyway -

patty

quote:
Patty, I don't know if you've used music while meditating, but that's what I've been doing. Not sure if I'd see colors if I didn't have the music to listen to, but I do know that it seems to help in seeing the colors - I regularly see purple and yellow that way, occasionally green or white.
In yoga class the other week, we were all lying on our backs during the meditative part at the end of class - and yes, the teacher put soothing music on - and she was going around to each person and pressing down on our legs to gets us more centered with the earth (her words). As she pressed on my legs, the purple I was seeing in my mind immediately switched to green. I thought that was kind of neat.

My 2 favorite CD's for meditation are Benjamin Iobst's Seven Metals (singing bowls of Tibet) and William Buhlman's OM (by Tom Carey). Deborah had recommended the latter one.

BTW, I got my blood pressure checked yesterday as part of a fitness program our church is starting. I've disliked getting my BP checked since I was put on bedrest at 31 weeks due to pregnancy-induced hypertension. (it had gotten as high as 160/108 at the time of diagnosis) Recently I've begun exercising again, but have been meditating fairly consistently since the spring. Well, my BP reading yesterday was a respectable 120/78! I'd like to think that meditation had helped in keeping it down.

quote:
Hi All,
I usually get a golden light while meditating, sometimes brilliant white too. Very rarely I have gotten purple. One cool thing I ran across: Imagine yourself as vividly as possible standing on water (I use the ocean with vivid blue water, but you could use any color), and when you have a good feel of it, start scanning the horizon. Look for a figure coming toward you, and don't freak out, but engage it in conversation. This gets interesting......
love, wayne

quote:
Hi Patty! *S*S
Quick thoughts - the 5th chakra is blue (throat), the 6th chakra is purple (third eye), - the reason for the colors has to do with vibration (*S) sound and light are one in the same. (Will explain more when I get home) -- Vibration resonates at different frequencies - thereby producing what we precieve to be colors.

The last submission on the topic, I take to mean that as one goes higher in the chakras, one ascends through the colors of the spectrum. Whether this has any validity or not I couldn't say, but I found the fact that I had no knowledge of this yet only experienced the lower colors prior to clearing my throat chakra, most interesting.

I had something similar, Jacara. I used the pull-down menu called "Change category group!" (look near top left corner of your screen) to "All categories you have access to" and this gave me a more familiar forum starting point.

Then I bookmarked the new URL. Try it, see if it works for you.

David! Cool!

SOrry to hear that you couldn't control things as you hoped. I'm sure there are many ideas about why that might be.

For what it's worth, I don't always find things to be the way they are 'supposed' to be from books and other people.  I am basically finding my own way with my own experiences....

What I see for myself, is that the more aware I am, the more concrete the environment is. So  very lucid dream is harder to change than a mildly lucid dream. But your experience may be different in the future.

Also, my first LD was very very lucid (and concrete) because of the startle of being dreaming and conscious at the same time. Since thenm to my dissappointment, the LDs are not as concrete --- more like ---- "Oh big deal, another LD."

Anyway, keep at it, see what you find.

Patty

Patty

I personally believe that the very young and very old have the easiest time with projection.

Kubler Ross has said that the 'spiritual quadrant' is wide open for the young and the old. In between, I believe, is the hardest for psychic experience and projection.

Tom - My baby died when I was 29. Transformative indeed. Now I need to see what Saturn represents.



Patty

Why does the choice need to be sensible? For God's sake! Expand your horizons! Exercise your free will! Don't be constrained by convention! We can create whatever we like!

In that spirit, letting the member decide for him or herself seems most appropriate.  I'd personally vote for something along xehupatl's line of suggestions for myself, I like "Chakrator.".

"Postmaster general" received the most votes (I counted 7.) If that is too weird, it could be abbreviated to simply "P. G."  It's really no more nor any less meaningful than "Premier member." But a hell of a lot funnier.

Patty

Hi Jeni,

In my experience, some experiences are clearly OBE's, some are clearly LD's, and some are clearly in-between. I personally therefore think of these related states of consciousness as lying on a spectrum or continuum.

I have read here and there on the web - people who seem to have clearly one (OBE) or the other (LD) and they say with much certainty that the two states are quite distinct, and never the twain shall meet.  

It may well be so, for them. But in my experience the two are related and some experiences fit in-between.

When you then add the distinction of RTZ OBE's vs astral OBE's, again some people begin to say that an OBE experience is either one, or the other.  But I don't believe that a person could distinguish a RTZ projection with reality fluctuations from an astral OBE in a similar-to-reality locale. And some LD's may pull in factors frmo an astral plane that a person has experience with, confusing these states even more.  Finally, I don't personally think  that an experience was NOT a 'real' OBE simply because there were reality fluctuations, although I appreciate the wish to be able to define an experience as it comes along.  

Anyway, good luck on your journeys -

Patty

Hi Tisha.

I've only recently put any effort into consciously re-entering after an obe.  So frequently, now, I will consciously re-enter, and then wake up. Two steps.

My earlier experiences - if they had decent lucidity and control - would frequently end in a snap back to C1. I'm in the OBE (seemingly RTZ) and then instantaneously  I'm awake in the bed. I don't remember waking up, because "I" was OB.

Was your experience a "snapback" sort of thing? I think Bob Peterson has written about this....

Patty