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Personally, I don't like this emphasis on "slaying the slayer" or trying to break the illusion. We must be in this reality for a reason, and I believe this is to learn. Although perhaps the thing we have to learn is to break the illusion? or maybe there are a lot of things to learn, and plenty of time to do it?

Adrian forgot to mention the terms of the "free" aspect of it. It is free if you cannot afford it. I personally can afford it, but I'm not going to buy it. I just didnt have the heart to lie about not being able to afford it, and then buy it! so think about it!!

Very good. Thats all I'm gonna say.

What is the purpose of doing the 5 rites? Like I said, it seems like you are freeing up the spine, but there must be more to it, i.e the spinning bit.

I'd have to agree with timless, it's very hard to explain because it's such a unique experience. Once you've had one, it changes your whole perspective on life, your priorities and how you percieve others.

Tom, I've never come across this before. Why shouldn't you meditate lying down? I have been meditating lying down for about 7 months now, and I can silence my inner-voice for a fair while, but not as long as I would like.

Thats strange, because I can probably do 21 repeptitions of the spinning rite without trouble, although I only did a maximum of 10 for each to start with. Although I felt a bit ill for 20 mins afterwards!

Timeless, that was a good post, I understand what you are saying.

Some interesting points have been raised in this discussion. However I would also like to add something that has been neglected thus far. Human beings have a range of emotions and reactions, both "good" and "bad". I really don't think it is beneficial to our human development, even our phsyical and psychical well being to push down those emotions that are not passive. Let me explain, anger is a very healthy emotion and it's healthy to release pent up anger to avoid problems. A major teaching of many  spiritual systems is to obtain a balance between your passive and agressive sides, and this will help you reach enlightenment. For example, if your too passive and go around apologising for everything, then you exue a certain nature and people are going to take advantage of that and it shows a very weak nature in that person . Likewise, if your too aggressive and go around rubbishing everyones opinion then you are certainly not going to make any friends or learn much.

This method translates to life in this forum on a day to day basis as well.I wrote this because I believe there are people on this forum, in fact everyone, who need to remember this from time to time (myself included!) Instead of tip-toing around people and letting them delude themselves you can provide helpful tips, sometimes being a bit firm in your responses. And on the flip-side, there are people, plenty of them, who can benifit from taking a step back, thinking before you speak, perhaps listening to something someone is telling you and generally not being as abrasive as they come across.

Am I making sense? do people disagree with me on this?

Sounds good but just one thing, if you are going to use traditional mail, try to make sure you use paper from a sustainable forest , I think thats what they're called. Its where they plant a tree to replace the one they cut down. Or even use revcyled paper. good Karma and good for the environment!

Yes Enderwiggin, I aggree with your point. I do think though, that there is a danger in this forum of big headedness from some people. It is something that is just starting to develop, a cliche of people who seem to believe they exude wisdom. It is worth remembering that everyone is human and makes mistakes and has faults. everyone!

Ah, theres a bit of cultural difference here though, Tabloids in Britain are different from those in th U.S and perhaps Canada. The Sun Newspaper is the biggest selling newspaper in Britain, and I'm 99% sure it wouldn't make up something like that, I remember reading about it too and the story had quotes from the police force as well. What I believe you understand by tabloid (correct me if I'm wrong) is something like the enquirer or one of those strange papers that make up ludicrus stories about celebrities etc?

In one dream I was bitten by a poisonous snake. I felt the poison inside my body, spreading and I thought to myself excrement I'm dying!! and faded away.

to answer the other question, there was once where I was shot in the head, made it home then died. After that I was in heaven it was very white and people were all queing up, although I got this from a movie I think! to quote bill and ted "dude this is most atypical!" - refering to heaven!

I'd just like to share a technique with you that I find effective. It involves the use of tarot cards. Pick a card and scan it from the top right to top left, about 1/2 inch to 1 inch at a time. Once one strip is done go to the next section and do the same all the way to the bottom. Once you have scanned the whole card, place it aside. Recreate this process in your head. Recreate the card strip by strip. Once this is done you should then proceed to deconstruct the card in the same manner. Strip by strip see it dissapear, after a bit of fiddling around with this technique I found that imagining ripping the card off strip by strip is more effective than just seeing this disspear.

Now the explanation. As your mind has been so busy doing this, once the last strip of the card is gone, you mind has nothing to do. So theres silence, nought there! It may only work for 3 seconds before your internal diolouge starts up again "there I'm silent" is always a frustrating one!!

It should work with anything, but tarot cards are good for two reasons.1they are complex so better suited to western society and the way our brains work. 2/ if you are studying the tarot it is a brilliant way to get better aquainted with it.

today, for the first time, I managed about 3 minutes with no internal dialogue, or at least only 1 or 2 interuptions which I quickly sorted out.

I lifted this technique from Donald Michael Kraigs "11 lessons in the higher magickal arts" but it was modified, so its at least part mine.

It definitly wasn't a light, i picked it up and it had a smooth texture.

also, sweet-celestial-sounds, thanks for the tip, I will certainly try it next time I get a chance to.

I really cant. I can barely remember it myself. It was small, about the size of the palm of my hand, possibly angled with sharpish edges. It may not have been pure green, perhaps it was encased in something more solid or just black around the edges.

why do you ask? have you seen something similar?

The way that I always think of it is that energy comming from the crown is more spiritual, from the divine self and much more difficult. The energy from one of the physical elements such as earth (through the ground), air, fire, water is much easier to channel as you have experienced the physical manifestations of it.

thing is though, spritual energy may be more difficult in my opinion, but it is good because you get a kind of clensing while you activate the chakras.

. It sometimes makes me wonder how many people here have actually read "Astral Dynamics". My guess is that the percentage was higher a year ago.

This was a comment madeby Tom earlier on in this thread. I have to admit I was a bit taken aback by it. I do eventually plan to read astral dynamics, but there are so many other books I want to read, you never have time to read them all. I maybe mistaken, but it sounded a bit like you were dissapointed more people havent read it. Is it that good a book that it can replace a mountain of others? I really have never read it so I would like to know. I apologise to Tom if this sounds a bit confrontational, as it is not intended in this way, or not exactly anyway.

I have decided to buy two papers for the duration of the conflict. The sun, because it is the most popular paper in Britain and therefore in theory represents the "thinking" of a vast ammount of people. I am also buying the independant every week which is a fantastic paper which rasies some important arguments. I suggest that anyone looking at english newspapers during the war buy the independant.

Poems, good idea. Here are a couple of poems by a little known artist... me!

Blown away by the pointlessness,
the fields of red,
it all happened so quickly,
and they're so quick to forget.
All in the name of peace,
for the good of mankind,
kill the devil! the tyrant!
machines that chop, dice and kill,
and all in the name of peace.
Will they remember in 50 years, 25 or 5?
another headline forgotten,
another tear-jerker,
another subject for dicussion and disection,
just another T.V news special.


Our father who art in heaven,
who hath made us in his image,
what a joke your religion has become,
we have squandered what you have given,
blasphemed in your name.
We'll protect your covenant,
by imposing it on others,
and killing the rest,
don't worry, its all in your name.
Love thy neighour, but don't get caught,
though shalt not steal, very much,
live by the sword,
ashes for ashes, its all for nothing,
the pious men have all lost touch.

Jack dee did something similar for comic relief (British fundraising event on BBC1) It was quite good and it must take some endurance for him just to have done it for those few hours, let alone however long Blaine did it for!

(the argument below is pasted from another topic i started without realising someone had already started it! so ignore the other one.)


I woke up this morning and went to the pub for a pint and a sunday roast. I checked my watch and then to my horror I realised that it was the 16th march. Tomorow my country could be at war. What did I have to show for 6 months deliberation? Nothing, I still hadn't decided which side of the argument I was comming in on. I have to admit it wasn't easy.having considered both the arguments for supporting this war and then the arguments condemning it I have reached a decision. I have decided to be anti-war. This is slightly humerous to me as I often find myself fuming about anti-war protestors, just going along to hold up a placard and gain some "street cred." Yes, there are plenty of these people around and it makes my blood boil watching them being interviewed, grinning away harping on about how war is bad, but not even giving a reason. I am far from one of these people. It was agony to chose a side as I believe there are good points made on both sides. I do however hold the belief that in any situation, you have to chose sides. Sitting on the fence is not an option, but sadly many people do just that. sitting on the fence achieves nothing apart from a useless talking shop, and the world didnt get to where it is today by talk.

I have made my decision based on numerous factors.
(1) the plain and sickly alterior motives of the "allied forces", if they wanted to topple Saddam Hussein for humanitarian reasons then why did they not do this over the last 12 years? answer= they now have the perfect oppertunity to do whatever they like post sept 11th. They have a blank cheque and the tools to use to enforce their will upon others.

(2) The bare faced hipocracy of the "Good Guys" Accusing Saddam Hussein of being a tyrant is one thing. Accusing him of treating people inhumainly is plainly another. Since when has the U.S.A ever stuck to the lines laid out in the Geneva convention (the Geneva convention met in the late 1950's at the end of the Korean war) We have the examples of the murder of countless Vietnamese, citezens of Laos and Cambodia with absolutly no proof that they were doing anything wrong. And lets not forget the use of economic sanctions! what a wonderful and humanitarian tool these are!! the only people who have suffered through sanctions in Iraq are the ordinary citizens. In Cuba, economic sanctions have crippled them, and all for what? being caught between a rock and a hard place in the 1960's. Whichever side they supported in the cold war they would have been in trouble. And finally, lets not forget the prisioners at Guantanamo bay (Cuba!!) these people are being held with no proof, chance of appeal and practically forgotten by the world.

(3)Iraq is a disgusting sideshow which is an attempt to make it look like something is being done about the war on terrorism. Wheres Bin-laden? and why havent they caught other key al-quieda figures? (okay so one or two they have caught but come on!)

(4) If the U.S and U.K etc are attacking Iraq for their human rights records then thats all fine and well. But why don't they attack Israel, China and various despicable regimes in Latin America? Let me attempt to answer that, its because there are allied interests there! They won't attack Israel because they are an important ally, America's "project" they are geographically positioned to help America's postion in the world. China is a keyu player in the U.N security council and too powerful for the U.S to defeat so they're left alone. There is a important word which sums all this, Appeasment. This "bad word" brings up images from the past, 1938 to be exact. The Munich conference where it was decided by world leaders in their wisdom to let the Nazi's get on with it for a few years and go to war later on!

Anyway I've gone on for long enough. I am well aware that I have only scraped the surface and not even covered the other side of the argument, but I am going to leave that to others over the next few weeks. I am also aware that America has been scapegoated here. This is intentional as its the U.S that is the worst offeneder, followed closely by as disgusting, immoral weasley Tony Blair of Great Britain, not to mention others. So I would appreciated a good argument on this issue.

"This method also makes a huge amount of sense for the reasons you mention. I just wanted to ask you how successful you have been in achieving an Astral projection with this method, and how reliable you have found it to be?"

I have to say, I havent managed a full projection before by using this technique, however I did get strong exit sensations a couple of times. One time I immagined performing a ritual known as the lesser banishing of the pentagram, but I think the sensations were due to the fact that I was effectivly "confusing my mind"into wondering if I was stood up moving around or laying down, rather than the content of the ritual.

If You mean what I think you mean then maybe I can offer a bit of advice. Long before I read anything on the idea, I decided that, rather than picture a body outside of your own and then transfer your conciousness into that, you should imagine yourself in that body. Let me clarify, Walk around then room in your imagination, a room your familiar with, perhaps your bedroom. Do things you would usually do in your room, turn on your P.C or play your guitar or whatever, but do it in your mind. Use every sense! smell what you'd smell, feel the texture of your guitar, the taste of your dinner or whatever. Make it as real as possible. When I do this for about 20 mins I find that I begin to experience exit sensations.

Now as I mentioned, I decided that this was a good technique before I read anything on it, Through personal experience (which is a rarity on such forums as this as people tend to regurgitate what they've been told in an attempt to be helpful!) Then lo and behold I read something 3 days ago that backs up this idea on some hermetics website.

SO in answer to your question, in my experience, it is not as effective to be aware of your "astral double" as a seperate entity as this is incredibly difficult to hold for more than a few minutes, instead imagine yourself walking around.

Hope this is helpful.

If you want my advice as a magician just starting his journey, I would suggest you create your own symbol and leave the pentagram to one side. The pentagram is a complicated piece of kit when you really start to delve deeply into the realms of magick, so perhaps not best suited to your task.

If your creating your own symbol you want to charge, try making it something you can relate to, perhaps something that is unique to you or something that has defined you throughout your life. Maybe you could constuct one out of the letters of your name? just a few suggestions. The most important thing is that it should feel right for you, if you think the pentagram would do this, by all means go for it.