Messages

Hello:

I have no problem, for example, with being accused of it all being a product of my imagination. Personally, I don't know what other faculty it could be a product of, lol. The only bit I have trouble understanding is the accusation part. But I always put that down to people reflecting their lack of understanding upon me. Which is their problem, of course, not mine.

My intention was not to accuse you, but to answer astralspinners question, so I'm glad that is no problem to you  
You are indeed right when saying all being a product of the imagination faculty, but to you believe there is something else behind it that is being reflected by our imagination "objective reality" or do you mean that there is no such thing. The latter would be quite a mind blowing concept, I might add.

I think people should try to understand more the vital role faculties such as the imagination play in the wider scheme of things. We create ALL our reality, physical or otherwise. The imagination plays a vital role in this. Quite simply, if you can't imagine it then you can't create it, and that applies across the board. So everything we create is a product of our imagination.

I can only create what I can imagine, thats true. But can I only perceive what I create? I sounds to me as if you were saying that all our reality is created by ourselves which, in a way, would mean that there  is nobody else around.....   Could you explain why I come to such a statement?

The simple fact is, there is no part of our reality that is not real. Moreover, no reality is any more or any less real than any other. It is simply a question of perspective. When a person has the ability to become totally immersed in another realm of reality, then this physical realm becomes just as "dreamlike" and "unreal" as all the other realms look to someone not so proficient.

I see what you mean. Lets forget the word "real" lets look at it this way:
From my personnel experience I can not stop the sun from raising in the morning. But I can stop the sun from raising in my dream. So there is a difference. If OBE's are a imagination I should be able to change them in anyway I want If I'm experienced enough. If they have a "real" component then somethings will not be in my control. This may be the view of a unexperienced Nobby.....Correct me if I'm wrong......

The physical only looks as real as it does because it captures our focus to an extreme extent. I can now withdraw my awareness, for example, even while walking down the street, so it appears like I take a "step back" from the front-line reality. As such it all starts becoming very dreamlike.

If I cut off your finger in the physical (sorry, couldn't think of a more friendly example) You'll have to live with it, in a dream you don't.

Hi,
Excellent researcher's values you have Tombo.

When you are making the scene and actors, you are creating by thought... and thought is Energy. Noticing whether it is taking an effort on your behalf to create it, tells us that it is only our creation.

Stopping the effort and relaxing to be an observer, enjoying what comes along no matter what it appears to be.. without expectations, will show you what IS there.

This will apply to all and any theories about creating realities from inner emotional issues, simple mind chatter, etc.

I'll try to be a good explorer, but I guess, I need more experience..........

One may assume that imagination and reality operate as seperate faculties in daily life. They don`t, even not in terms of very real and direct effects of the imagination on ``physical`` reality.

So you would say, If we imagine the sun to disappear with enough "energy" then it will do so?
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It would matter for me, cause I would make different use of it. If I know for sure that I can perceive other realms during OBE I would make up different goals then knowing it is all in my head.
It wouldn't stop my interest but it would change it. It would alter my interpretation of the experiences.
I actually find it pretty odd that you guys don't care about it! I mean I can see from you are coming from, "The experience itself is what counts"
But I myself want to know as much about reality as possible and that includes knowing if I make up something myself or not.

Hey Cezyl!

Did you yourself do such partner OBE's? Are your experiences anywhere posted, so I can read them?

Thanks, Tom

Thanks for the great article T.L. !! I was in a motivation hole, wondering if the it is all worth it. and your article might just be the kick I'll need. I'll try out what you describe. And once I succeed I'll contact you. Can I apply the techniques you describe once I become lucid in a dream (natural occurring dream) to start a projection?
One more question:
You talk about Projections and LD's so it seems you see them as two different states.
Could you elaborate a bit on that? Do you see differences between LD and AP? Do you think the two states offer different options? Do they feel different?
Cause as I understand you, once we are in the conscious non-rem-sleep we now can choose whether to induce a LD or to start a projection, right?

Hey Cezyl!
Thanks! Have you done it? have you met with a friend what happened?

hi!

let's see how you people can handle some truth...

according to this website and many others astral traveling is a way to explore REAL world and not your subconscious. is it really? try something next time you travel. take a deck of playing cards, shuffle it, close your eyes and draw a card. put that card on a table (or elsewhere) face up, but don't look at it. and now travel away! once you are tuned to your "astral body" take a look at that card. can you see what it is? when you are back in your physical body compare what you saw in the astral world with what it really is. YOU WILL NOT GUESS THAT CARD!

just face it, this "astral traveling" is nothing but a controlled dream. sure it's fun. hey, it's definitely healthier than acid! but astral body is not real and all you see when you travel is the creations of your mind. there is no other dimensions, there is no god. the reality is made of hard work and lies. face it, be strong!

wait, my astral body foresees a lot of negativity coming in response to this thread (hehe). let me emphasize some key points here.

1) try the experiment. if you guess the card it will be a final proof to yourself and others that astral traveling is real.

2) don't weasel out, try the experiment! stop making up excuses!

3) seriously, try this experiment. if you can't see the card - you can't see your body from outside and you can't see anything else. it's all made up.

Your mind is way out of my league I would say........ Your arguments are lame! You want proof and come up with some card trick to decide whether the astral is real or fantasy. hilarious! what would that prove anyway?

Thanks for the help so far. I actually don't think I'm pushing to strong rather the opposite. My routine pretty weak I would say:
-I do some reality check during the day
-I do some energy work
-I sometimes do affirmation to LD when falling asleep
-about all 14 days or so I do 40 minutes of OBE-exercises in Bed
So actually I think my routine is pretty moderate. O.k. maybe I should see it more as fun and not as something one should do, that might be a point a should work on but other then that, I don't think I'm forcing.$
That problem seems more to be that I do not have any real target that I want to accomplish.
I think if Somebody could like give a awesome target and say "Look try this if you succeed your motivation problem will be gone" or something that would help a great deal:

So I think Cezyl your post might do that job and help me get some motivation. I mean if I coul meet with a friend and we both could confirm the experience that would definitely boost my motivation!

Probably I should start to define some very clear goals! Any more ideas?

O.k. I installed the Brainwave generator that comes along with the Mastering Astral Projection Book. I can play the Presets on my computer....
BUT: How can I put them on a regular Audio-CD? Is this possible at all?
Cause I want to listen to the sounds in my Bed via the stereo system and not sitting in front of the computer!

Help appreciated.

I have some LD's from time to time but it needs quite some effort from my side to have them. I had 4 conventional OBE's so far. And I'm loosing me motivation to work on it.
Sometime I doubt if this experiences are real or just a fantasy and this further reduces my motivation to OBE. I don't want to think this way but I do
The LD's are fun but I want more then that! It is just not enough to keep me going. I want them to have a transforming effect! I want to grow.
Should I focus more an traditional OBE's ? What are your coolest Astral Experiences?
Can somebody please help me out of this hole?

Thanks Tom

irrational thinking is responsible for witch trials and spanish inquisition.

Actually, the people that came up with those were being perfectly rational, within their own cultures and values.

I daresay you're aware that the brain is split into the left & right hemisphjeres. The left is logical and 'rational', the right is creative and 'irrational'

Most of the people we regard as geniuses today - Van Gough, Mozart, Einstein, Shakespear - all were very right-sided thinkers.

Logic is all about cause-and-effect and turning the world into patterns and rules. It's no good at creating anything new.

Nicely said!

Thanks for the detailed answer Frank! I'll try to do as you said. Now, is there any way I can discern whether it is my Essence or just a Fantasy when I have a encounter with it? Or will I have a knee-jerk reaction and just know when I succeeded?

I started a Topic a while ago, you may find some tips there. Let me know if you have sucess.
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15487

I have the same Problem: I tried to contact my guide  2 times so far. First time a cat came running into may room (in the Astral) I thought that can't be it and did not pay any attention to the cat. Later I learned that guides show often up as animals, so maybe it was my guide?

Second experience: I wished to meet my guide, soon after that a man entered the room. I asked him what I should focus on. he said I should focus on meditation for 4 months? Was that my guide? no clue!

It is said that one should test the guide, but how do I test my guide?

To the experienced Projectors: Can you give us beginners some Tips?
How do I contact and recognize my guide?

Cheers Tom

Well I think the more we learn about reality the more it gets obvious that a deterministic view is wrong. There is no way to exactly measure things in the subatomic scale (http://www.thebigview.com/spacetime/uncertainty.html)
Not only that but things seem to be completly alien to ourselfs (nor Particle nor wave)
It is impossible to calculate the future cause it is not possible to measure the actual state of the universe. If I look at it very scientifically I must say if something is not measurable and not possible to calculate it is within the world of science not REAL. Therefore it is  a matter of believe. I believe the universe is not deterministic, Period.

On the other hand I must say if could even imagine a deterministic world and a free will coexisting: If we could step out of time it is imaginable that we decided (using free will) what Life we wanne live including all the decions we wanna make. Then we stepped into time and now we go thru it.

In the quantum world the biggest factor against a deterministic universe was loss of data in such places as black holes. The reason relativity works on the macro universe (even though it doesn't on the micro) is that very large systems of uncertainty average themselves out. A crude analogy is in casinos, the only way to beat the house is to have a few very high stake bets, because over time they will win.
Have you read into blackhole entropy? The aspect of universe which seemed to rule out determinism (the loss of data into a blackhole) looks like it could have been resolved. It is thought now that blackholes get smaller and smaller until they disappear and space-time is reverted to its original form. If looked at as a p-brane, the black hole will store all data which fell into it, so this information is not lost. This is very important in predicting the wave function of every partical. This also puts determinism back onto the map.

Just because we don't understand enough of the action of QM at our current state, hasn't stopped us putting it to use, and is not a reason to assume we will never understand it Another note, QM is a system of describing the micro-universe. The terms and theory used is not how things actually are. But us picturing things that way help us to work thing out better. A very good example of this is imaginary time, which is a construct used extensively in science. We create this new time form to help us build a model. It doesn't cause the time form to actually exist. A lot of people have taken these ideas to extreme in the QM world, such as moons disappearing,and reality instantly constructing itself on our observation and then reverting back to wavefronts etc.

Agree! But I think you missed my point. For example if we have a single Plutonium Atom we can not predict when it will decay. If this is not possible at all or if our current knowledge is just not good enough, I think, is unclear.
So, you do not need a black hole, if a decay is truly random then the universe is not determined!
Of course it may be possible that someday we completely understand QM, but I can just talk about the current situation, not about what might be.
Your note about QM not, being the reality but just a help to picture reality is important. I think Einstein summed it up well once: "Math can only talk about relations between concepts but not about relation between concepts and reality" I think the same is true for all of science.

Another note: As long as we do not understand consciousness (and I doubt we ever will) it is not possible to decide whether the universe is determined or not.

I agree completely. It would more than suck the essence of life out of the universe, it would automatism us. Even our horror reactions at such a thing would not be 'ours,' we would not be 'ours.' But. Just because something is scary and looks terrible, it doesn't mean we should ignore it if evidence starts to point towards it. On a quest for truth we can't ignore the truths we don't like  
I just find it hard to define consciousness in relation to the cause and effect reality it exists within. How can an independent thought be created? What is the mechanism which causes it to be? The problem is that once a choice is made the choice cannot be changed. Each action, reaction, though, and emotion etc in our life is a forever one of a kind event. So even our progress through time seems to suggest a deterministic view of the universe.

Well I think the more we learn about reality the more it gets obvious that a deterministic view is wrong. There is no way to exactly measure things in the subatomic scale (http://www.thebigview.com/spacetime/uncertainty.html)
Not only that but things seem to be completly alien to ourselfs (nor Particle nor wave)
It is impossible to calculate the future cause it is not possible to measure the actual state of the universe. If I look at it very scientifically I must say if something is not measurable and not possible to calculate it is within the world of science not REAL. Therefore it is  a matter of believe. I believe the universe is not deterministic, Period.

On the other hand I must say if could even imagine a deterministic world and a free will coexisting: If we could step out of time it is imaginable that we decided (using free will) what Life we wanne live including all the decions we wanna make. Then we stepped into time and now we go thru it.

I now have no feeling of acting with free will, although the feeling took many years to ebb away.

But what happens? People say I'm lying! They say it's impossible and so I must be deluding myself to preserve my theory. And what can I do or say to challenge them? I have no idea—other than to suggest that other people try the exercise, demanding as it is.

When the feeling is gone, decisions just happen with no sense of anyone making them, but then a new question arises—will the decisions be morally acceptable? Here I have made a great leap of faith (or the memes and genes and world have done so). It seems that when people throw out the illusion of an inner self who acts, as many mystics and Buddhist practitioners have done, they generally do behave in ways that we think of as moral or good. So perhaps giving up free will is not as dangerous as it sounds—but this too I cannot prove.

As for giving up the sense of an inner conscious self altogether—this is very much harder. I just keep on seeming to exist. But though I cannot prove it—I think it is true that I don't."

But nevertheless decisions take place, where does a thought come from? I have no clue, but it must be somewere I guess.
Maybe free will is a illusion. But only cause you have no control of things (your apparent decisions) doesn't mean nobody (God) hasn't! it leads to paradox situations were the rational mind starts to fail. Things stop making sense and probably they aren't supposed to make sense! But what do we do with this insights?
Somewhere must be a real Core of reality! Particles are unreal, free will is unreal, self is unreal............What is real then?

Quantum science suggests that they Universe is not divisible into seperate things. The universe is a whole and we are part of it. Doesn't that fit together perfectly. Any view of a independent self must be wrong according to Quantum Phyics. And I think that is the most logical solution: There is just one hugh consciousness that we are a part of.

Regarding entanglement. It's considered now that faster than light communication is not needed. For example:
A radioactive particle decays and sends out two particles in opposite directions and with opposite spins. If an observer measures the spin of one particle he can say with certainty what the spin of what the other particle is even if it is on the other side of the universe. This is where Einstein became confused. Observing the spin of one particle does not instantly change the spin of the other, as the observers could no more choose the spin of the observed particle (S. Hawkins.)
I'm not sure how this implies free will is an illusion though. If the deterministic view of the universe was proved (with methods such as p-brane theory of black holes) then it could suggest that free will is an illusion - although I'm not sure how the determinism of particles could transcribe to seemingly complex humans/consciousness. It is something that concerns me though.

In my view, If the deterministic view of the universe was proved that would suck the very essence of Life out of the world. A predeterminate Universe would be a dead meaningless Universe. I refuse to believe that.

O.k. this may sound annoying but sorry ,I have to ask:
How can you be sure it will happen? Do you exactly know like, in 1 year it will happen or do you just wait and see?

So basically, You just know on the bottom of your heart, that it will happen, right?

Your experience kinda reminds me of Deja vus, there is this theory that says, Deja vus are future events that we saw in Dreams.
My sister has a lot of them. She usually can decide whether she wants to change the experience or let it happen like it is supposed to.
Do you think, you could change the future, you experienced? Or do you believe it will happen exactly like you saw it, no matter what?

O.k. I'll give in!
Xetrov I must admit: Your Theories on Astral Travel are at least as plausible as the ones Robert Bruce has, or any other I have heard of.
I'm curious for your new article though. I think you should start a new Thread once you post it, cause I doubt any body else is still following this interesting discussion:

BTW: I hope Catmeow has some good arguments against you, though........

Catmeow- I am not missing the point. You are

I think none of you  is missing "the point", the two of you just talked at cross purposes. But I think we should focus on what you experienced Leyla, cause that is the interesting part!

I had an overwhelming desire to speak with my grandmother.

No surprise then, that I found myself astrally transported to her house. I hung around in my invisible state, eaves-dropping on her conversation.

I then felt I had overstayed and my body was trying to pull me back in- problem:
I got lost in time.

A series of portals opened up in front of me:
1) me at age six walking across my great aunts living room
2) me at age twelve laying on my other aunts couch
3) me in this apartment, in bed
4) me in the future, some kind of traveling artist

I could have walked into any one of them!

I did not know where I belonged, until the future me informed the current me that I was "still back in that little apartment." (portal #3)

I got back, sick and dizzy from my overstay. Also I was miserably hot and feverish, burning up with waves of heat.

I rolled over to write down what I over-heard at my grandmothers house. I realized with shock that it won't take place for five or six more years!

I had traveled forward in time!

This is a awesome experience! Now can you explain one thing in more detail, please: Which one is it?
-You wrote down what you heard at or grandmothers house and then it happened 5 years later, then you pulled out your Notebook and voilà it was exactly as you wrote down? Or
-The experience is not  long ago and what you wrote down will happen in the future ? And you just know it will happen like a Déja vu.

I suppose that your overwhelming desire to speak with your grandmother caused you to time travel and that you can't do it on purpose. Can you do it on Purpose?

And here's the creepy part. The times that I was looking in on, as a little girl aged 6 and 12- I *remembered* having an extremely spooked out feeling in those moments of my childhood that I was being WATCHED.

It just goes round in circles. Man, I could go nuts trying to figure it out.

Pretty creepy I would say! This is though to figure out! Although if we assume that conscious itself is not bound to time (Like Robert Bruce and other believe), or in other words time is a illusion, then it starts to make some sense. Still not  a lot of sense though! I guess I have to think about what you said............. Did you have more experiences like that? If yes I'd like to hear...................

[astralspinner wrote]

astralspinner wrote

No. When an entangled particle communicates with the other particle, it does so instantaneously, ie at the exact same time. Even if one has moved around really fast while the other stayed still.

They can send a message from A-now to B-now.They can't send a message from A-now to B-five-minutes-ago.

I don't understand what you mean. I thought the point of relativity is that there is no absolute time scale.

Lets picture the following experiment: We have 2 "white" entangled Particles in a Laboratory. So lets say if we switch one of them to "black" the other switches to "black" instantly as well.

Now let  Einstein take one Particle (A) and fly around the earth with 99.9999% of the speed of light for one year, the other Particle (B) stays in the Laboratory with Heisenberg. After one year Albert returns to the Laboratory with Particle (A).
Particle B is now 1 year ahead in time relative to Particle A.
Now Heisenberg decides to switch Particle B to black.
What will happen?

1)He already knew I'll do it cause he saw that the Particle A Einstein was carrying when we entered the Library was black. Thus free will is a illusion

2) The Particle A is still white as Einstein entered the room and switches to black the very same moment Particle B is switched to black . Thus the "switching-signal" travels 1 year into the past, relative to the Laboratory time.

What will happen if Einstein decides to switch A to black first, once he enters the room?

1) Particle B is already black as Einstein enters the room thus free will is a illusion

2) Particle B switches to black as Einstein switches A to black, thus the signal travels 1 Year into the future relative to Einstein




Leyla wrote

I will try to put this as simply as I can:

If time travel isn't scientifically possible then I wouldn't have been able to do it.

O.k. I think I now understand what you mean. When you say "Laws of nature", "scientifically possible", "physically possible"  or such, you mean the "real world" you mean: "what in reality is possible"

But if I or  catmeow say "Laws of nature", "scientifically possible", "physically possible"  or such we mean: What, according to our current knowledge, which is accepted by mainstream Physicists, seems to be possible.

We are trying to say: "Travel into the past might be possible but it is not a accepted fact by Physicists"

Now you claim to be able to travel into the past. Are you sure about that? Can you change something there? Are you sure that you not just visited a realistic duplication of the past that was created in the Astral based upon thoughts by people that lived there?
Or easy put:
Is looking a documentary about the second World war on TV time travel?

This might be very rare and unusual... but I'm finding the more I meditate and try to evolve spiritually the more it's making me depressed, down, misserable and sad...   I had such a great personality before I started getting into all this but now it seems my personality has changed and I'm not so much fun to be around, I'm noticing it and so are other people.  I'm getting to serious.

Somedays I'm happy and full of energy and others I just feel I don't belong here... and it's getting harder to be around people to, being much more sensitive I pickup on alot of negative energy.   I try I really do try to look on the bright side of life and be positive but there's just so many things happening in this life it difficult to stay positive.

I JUST WANNA BE HAPPY  

*Maybe this post should be somewhere else...*

I can relate to what you are saying. Now, I think meditation is not meant to bring you down! You are probably doing something wrong! There are a lot of things that can go wrong when tring to grow spiritually. Mediation is a powerful tool that like a knife can do good or bad. It  is not meant to make you serious, a lot of old meditation teachers are pretty witty and seem always happy. If meditation is bringing you into the wrong direction you have to change something, or stop it! An older Monk once told me: "Every time, Practice seemed difficult and sorrowful, I, in hindsight, realized that I was doing something wrong."
Maybe you got more sensitive due to meditation and now the negativity of other people is bringing you down? You should probably seek the council of a good meditation teacher, or pick up some books that deal with the issues.
I think it is not uncommon that meditation is bringing you temporally down but that there are techniques to get you out of this. I do not have the needed experience to help you, though.

I can't really add to the great information put across by Catmeow and Telos. But I think Leyla is referencing entanglement when she talks of particles communicating across large distances (sorry if this has already been said.)
Just because we are made up of particles doesn't mean we inherit (on a consciousness level) potential properties of them.

No this has not been said, I think. And yes entangled Particles seem to be able to communicate over indefinite distances without time delay. This is highly confusing and suggests the whole Universe might operate as ONE. Does entanglement allow time travel into the past? Might be! But as I said, it is yet to be explored.
If one entangled Particle is moving at a higher speed then the other, time is moving slower for it. Therefore the other Particle should be in the Past relative to the one that moves faster. Can we now send info via the particle in the future to the one in the past? I do not know? Interesting thought, I think.
I think this discussion has to make clear what it is about. Do we talk about what might be possible or do we talk about what the current laws of Physic allow?

I have the third edition, updated. 1991.

I don't know if I would go so far as to call Buddhism "metaphysics."

The same information on particles is available in my copies of "Metapatterns," "The Holographic Universe," "and "The Dancing Wu Li Masters."

All are pretty good books as far as Physics goes.

As for my "youth and inexperience," I am 29 and holding  

Although it should be obvious my writing is not nearly so arrogant in tone as one of these know-it-all teenagers. I would not sarcastically throw about the word "cheers," for instance. That would make me sound haughty and pretentious.

How about yourself?

Why don't you use a real book on Physics, instead of a pseudo-Physic-book ? You wouldn't use a Book by Stephen Hawking to read about Buddhism, would you?

And no Particles usually can not travel back in time. A Particle needs to exceed the speed of light travel back in time, for any particle with mass, this would need indefinite energy.
I know Micheal J. Fox did it but you can not!

CHEERS     Tom

have by the way come across a very interesting article to show you some more scientific evidence that my viewpoint is no-nonsense. I would highly suggest for anyone to read the following:

http://www.geocities.com/franzbardon/virtuallimbs.html

I never thought your Ideas are nonsense.But In my view this article does not in any way show evidence that a neuromatrix is more likely then a Astral body existing besides the physical body. All observed Phenomenon are explainable with both Theories.

But this is equally true of NDE-OBE. There is no evidence to definitely prove that NDE-OBE is "spirit leaving body" either.  Ultimately these things can not be proven, and we can argue in circles over this for months. Given the fact that we both accept that "spirit can leave body", it seems that you then place an additional and an unnecessary constraint that "body must be dead". Why? I don't understand? You talk about "evidence" but the overwhelming "evidence" is that "spirit leaves body", even when the body is alive

I agree.. what evidence have we any way, to assume there is a spirit? I think none,  that one could not explain away If one is a little creative with theories one can easily explain all experiences a human being has without a spirit. (  most scientists do exactly that! )
What evidence do we have that spirit leaves the Body, well this question is the wrong way, I think. Let me ask this: What evidence do we have that conscious is not the more appropriate description of what we are then spirit? Conscious can leave Body during sleep, that we know, so if we are not Spirit, but Conscious (a more plausible assumption I think) the discussion would be finished.

I think the Problem is the following:
We do not understand what the mind really is nor do we have any good explanation for conscious itself.  But ultimately we are "mind". If we focus our conscious to remote places and become conscious of things there, we have a fact that modern science can not explain! You can use ESP (unexplained I think!) Neorimatrix etc.. but ultimately we do not understand conscious and therefore this theories are , in my view,  not satisfying cause they fail to explain the most essential part.
It seem s to me that explaining Conscious with science is like explaining a melody with words.....Not possible
So I guess, our dispute is doomed to fail (    @ Frank)





To FreeChile

Also, Xetrov, it appears that you and most people on this site make a few other assumptions I would like to express now.

1. The assumption that there is a mind. Not explored here.
2. The assumption that there is such a thing as consciousness. Also not explored here.

It seems to me like you are saying, It is a assumption to say "We are"    
What do you mean? I don't get it.......

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2921&highlight=hyperdimensional+resonator