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Enlightened men wouldn't obsess over the fact that they're enlightened, if they recognized it at all. It is not a status anyway, but an evolution.

I'm not saying I'm enlightened.  I am saying that it is is OBVIOUS to those who are Enlightened that they are Enlightened, and it is CLEAR to everybody else in their circle, that they are indeed special and set apart.

There may be some Evolution involved in getting there, but all of the Traditions, but yours, apparently, agree that Enlightenment somes suddenly and totally, presenting something of a Quantum Leap from one state to another.  Ofcourse, once Enlightened there may be growth at that Level, but it is on a whole other continuum from what us ordinary mortals experience.  From the first moment of Enlightenment, the Enlightened are a complete Level above everybody else.  

There is no such thing as being a little bit 'Enlightened'.

Leo, you're confusing me a bit here.  Are you saying that every group of people who think that their "leader" or "master" is enlightened are correct in their assumption? I'm assuming you can't really think that that is the case.
For example, Hitler had charisma in spades. I've seen shows on the History Channel, where people who lived in Germany at the time had it in their minds that Hitler was their Father, and therefore everything he said MUST be true, MUST be right, and MUST be for their own good. He was literally like a deity for those people.
I assume, for an enlightened person, of course it's obvious for them that they are enlightened. However, I don't think the very fallible, typical human being is a very good barometer.
I'm certain that there have been many, many small groups of people (groups that history never tells us about) who thought that their leader was The Enlightened One. But it was nothing more than a joke. This is what a cult is. And we've heard about cults so often. I believe our human minds are way too faulty to know, in general, who is truly enlightened and who is not. I think you'd only know for certain if you yourself were enlightened.
One other thing: you're basing your definition of enlightenment on popular historical figures.
Number 1, you must know that history is faulty, because it has been recorded (and manipulated) by faulty minds.
Number 2, just because you're enlightened, it doesn't mean that you'll become popular enough to be recored in the history books. I'm sure there are way more enlightened persons that have existed that aren't in history books than are.
Number 3, I think we, as UNenlightened beings, have a tendency to think that enlightened persons are all the same, or very much the same. So we look at the popular criteria that has been established (by our faulty, human minds) and say, well if you're like this, then you must be enlightened, because that's how enlightened people act. If however, you don't act in accordance with these established criteria, you are not enlightened. I think this is silly... and typically human. I've read many things that would suggest that enlightened persons are, or can be, as different as any group or population of people. Those Zen masters I read about really crack me up with their antics! They're nuts! I've heard stories of zen masters beating the crap out of their disciples, in order to help those disciples reach enlightenment themselves. What the master is trying to do is get the disciples mind to stop by doing something outrageous and totally unexpected. The goal is to get them beyond their ordinary mind, and the masters are known to do some really crazy things in order to try to make that happen. But to a typical human being, can you imagine that they'd consider someone who'd attack another to be an enlightened person? Of course not! In our limited human minds someone who'd physically attack another COULD NEVER be enlightened. But that is because we are UNenlightened, and therefore we do not know the full scope of what enlightenment is.
Number 4, any unenlightened person might only identify someone else as enlightened based on some criteria. But where has this criteria come from? It's comes from someone or somewhere else. Or, in other words, it's comes  from outside of you. It's all based on what you've heard or what you expect, and comes from your limited experiences. Any information that comes from somewhere else is faulty. Because you don't know it. You've just adopted it because either it sounded good or because it was forced on you. This is why I believe that only an enlightened person can know, for certain, when another person is enlightened. He just knows. It's just there. And it's no longer based on criteria or expectation. The knowledge goes beyond those things. But all an unenlightened person has is criteria and expectation, and that's why he's unenlightened lol. Therefore, he's not a very good judge of who's the real deal and who is not. Sure, you may get it right some of the time. But how do you know how often you've gotten it wrong? You don't. Because you couldn't identify all of those enlightened people who passed you walking down the street, you never thought about them. You never even knew that there was something you were missing. So it was impossible for you to tally up all of the times when you missed the mark.  

I totally understand what you're talking about Brandon. By now I've had a lot (but not a HUGE amount) of OBE's. When you said that you're almost like a different person, that hit the nail right on the head! It can be very frustrating, because when you're back in your physical body, you think about all the things you could, or should have done. And even worse, you can't just leave your body again whenever you want. It's like the experience is controlling you, and not the other way around. This is what I'm working on right now- trying to have the experience at will, and trying to have total control of it. I assume it all comes with practice.

Well Trent, you've only been trying for a week. Being able to have a fully conscious OBE at will is very difficult to achieve. If my understanding is correct, most peoples OBE's are spontaneous. I think its all just a matter of persistence. Keep trying NEW and you will eventually see results of some kind.

You are right about discovering who we are, Nostic, but why most of the higher level entities known as demons have ego? Ego is not about positivity or negativity, it is like a manifestation of who you are...

I can't say I know too much about demons, so I'm really unsure how to answer your question.

ego is sum of our experiences, everywhere, at all levels
you high self has ego, you bet it
i would also argue that source has ego, because it has all experiences, the fact they are ALL experiences doesn't change anything
in fact you do not transcend your ego, but your unconsciousness, the fact of transcendence is integrated into your ego, enlightened incarnations remember more, but they are not enlightened from birth

we are here to solve problems of higher egos , namely oversoul, high self is rather irrelevant in the big picture, although VERY helpful
so for me it is boot camp, and i enjoy it

i want to be
no harm meant, but most people aren't
they simply react

Define unconsciousness for me. I think we may just be playing with words here. This is why language is so problemental. Even though we may use the same words, we may not mean the same thing. When I say ego, I mean our limited human identities. And that definition is based on practically everything I've read concerning the ego. It seems that you have a different definition. Which is fine really. I'm not gonna argue over who is right or wrong.

Yes, ego can be described as an "false identity", because we use it only in this life, but who we really are then, and why we need to learn anything? What if we didn't choose to incarnate to learn some lessons, but mainly for fun, what if this is like a computer game and higher self(me, but from a higher "perspective")  enjoys it. When someones life is filled with suffering, it doesn't mean that it is not enjoyable from his/her higher self perspective.

Who we really are is beyond words, beyond description, and beyond our logical, dualistic minds comprehension. That is why it must be experienced. It is for each individual to experience for themselves.  And in order to experience who we really are, we must transcend the mind.
You ask, why do we need to learn anything? You yourself said you like discovering who you are. Well, that's the whole point of leaning- to discover more about yourself.
I think life can be looked at however you like. I too look at life as a game, or a play, or a cosmic movie. There really is no wrong way to look at life.  There are just certain ways that cause more suffering than others. Life can be seen a playground, or a boot-camp, depending on your preference. And also, learning lessons can be fun. There doesn't need to be any separation there. I think on earth, we've made learning our lessons an ordeal because of our over-identification with our egos.

Why we would choose to have an ego if it is not necessary?

Well, the ego is very important. Through the ego we learn about ourselves, but not in the obvious way. The only way you can know who you are, is by first knowing who you are not. The ego is a false identity. But it something that we all need. The problem comes when we identify ourselves with the ego... when we assume that we are nothing more than the ego. But without our false, temporary identities, we'd have no way of defining  ourselves, no point of reference to define life.

Well, I don't agree when you say that males are the same. The way I see it, men are becoming more feminine. They're becoming softer. Now, there is more of an emphasis on men being caring, nurturing fathers, and on being able to express their feelings, etc.
Everything else you said I agree with. But, you know, everyone has to learn their lessons in their own way, and in their own time. Of course, balance is most important. But history tells us that humans have to learn things the hard way; the very hard way. Why should that change anytime soon? LOL

there is no difference between the 2, in fact they are one and the same

Well I agree with u, but I wanted SoulDragon to think it through. I wanted to see how he defines those things and how his mind works.

And the other thing is that after destroying your personality you probably would be able only to experience constant bliss, and you would not need to do anything. I think that this is not really a good way to use your consciousness. For me discovering who I really am is a great fun, and I can't wait to see what my past lives were.

Well, ya know, there is bliss, and then there is bliss. Meaning, there are different definitions. You can think of bliss as the opposite being depressed, or as some kind of drugged-up feeling. But there is another type of bliss that goes beyond all definitions... goes beyond all words... goes beyond all expressions... and goes beyond all human understanding. To attain such a state... I, personally, cannot imagine a greater accomplishment.

And one more thing, I don't mean ego individuality. I mean personality individuality.

How do you distinguish the 2? Meaning, what is your definition of each?

I think that I am here to understand that I have no way to know why I am here...

I agree 100%. Or should we really try to understand it all now? Or wait till the day comes? We just don't know

You know, it is said that ultimate reality is beyond the comprehension of the mind... because ultimate reality is absolute, whole... while the mind is split, because of its dualistic nature. This may cause some people to say that it's useless to even try to know what creation is all about. But Eastern mysticism tells us that you and your mind are 2 separate things. Western culture teaches us to heavily identify ourselves with our minds. Eastern mysticism, on the other hand, treats the mind as a barrier to knowing ultimate reality. It says the cause of all suffering stems from our identification with our minds, or egos. It's the very nature of the mind to be in conflict, because it thinks in terms of opposites- what we'd call duality. For instance, try to define *good*. *Bad* will always be a part of that definition. The 2 are inseparable. And this causes a great deal of conflict. In a dualistic world (or mind), it's impossible to live without conflict, because your whole foundation of understanding is based on opposites. So, in order to understand ultimate reality, and to move beyond conflict, you have to transcend the mind. This is the purpose (the original purpose) of such practices as yoga. Yoga is a science. You do certain exercises, or experiments, and you end up with certain results. This is why Buddha told his disciples, don't believe what I say just because I say it. Find out for yourselves through some sort of meditative practice. It's really a shame though that western culture, in particular, has turned yoga into nothing more than a fitness routine. Its potential is so much greater.

Both individuality and "oneness" have their place. But if you're only on one side of the dividing line, then there will be a sense of being incomplete. This is why we chose to incarnate in the first place. Because if you're only ONE with the whole, it has no meaning. Only being an individual gives it meaning. But only being an individual, you're still just on one side of the coin, and you feel restless, unfulfilled; or at best, you'll have moments of fulfillment, and then you'll keep going through life looking for that thing that is missing. Both "oneness" and individuality are important. They need each other to even have any meaning. But the ultimate potential for a human being is to transcend them both... so that you become both and neither... then there is no longer any conflict... you see the whole picture... and you are whole.
Of course, I only believe these things in my head. They're only lip-service really. I have yet to transcend the duality of the mind and verify all of these things experientially.

Yes I've thought about this before... that the spectrum of visible light directly corresponds to the colors of our chakra system... ROY G BIV... just like we learn in school. The story/legend that really strikes me is that of the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Where else could that have come from! You have to make it to the end of the rainbow in order to receive the ultimate... but the rainbow within, not without.

OMG Leo, I was realizing something like this just yesterday.  Recently the energy around me has been strong enough that I can hear it reverberate in my ears. Here's the thing though: if I focus strongly enough, the wavering reverberation  blends into a deep humming sound, and I can feel the force of the energy raising. The deeper I hear the humm, it seems, the closer I get to passing through my crown chakra.

I once had a dream in which a Wise Old Alchemist was teaching me about The Energy.  He showed me a chart and told me that if the Vibrations are too slow, then the Power will burn up the legs -- and he showed me a chart in which it appeared that the upper legs and hips would be injured by slow vibrations.  The Old Alchemist recommended that if the same energy were made to vibrate at a higher rate, then the nerves would not be so stressed.

Hmmmmmm.  I just thought of a few things.  That old Alchemist said something about 16 cycles per second, and then he showed me this Airplace Propellar with a hub with a corkscrew painted on it.  When it was revolving at less than 16 cycles per second, you could discern the corkscrew design, but at faster rates it would resolve into a 'blur'.

So maybe my mistake has been to focus my meditations on energy that I could perceive to oscillate.  That Point in the Swivel Point of the Head, where I tell everybody that it oscillates back and forth -- perhaps that slow oscillation should be sped up until it becomes a perceptable 'blur'.

Great story Tayesin. Your insight is greatly appreciated. I've been working on energy/kundalini raising for 10 months now. And there are times when I think, what am I doing, or, is this really leading me anywhere? So it helps to read "success stories" like yours.
At this time, I can feel the energy raised to the top of my head, but it has not been released yet. It feels like a bubble is forming in my head, and all the blockages I once felt are slowly being dissipated. Sometimes I feel like a volcano about to erupt, but there is still this force at the top of my head that keeps everything in.
One thing I'd like to ask. Do you felt a liquid energy surrounding you? I feel this all the time, like I'm in a tub of water. By will, I can even direct this liquid energy in waves up to the top of my head. But there is still a force holding it all in... like a dam that I'm trying to break. This "dam" seems to be shrinking though.

Cool. Thanks bro! Much appreciated for both files!

Hi gnomad,

I've listened to the track once. However, at the time, I was also reading through these forums, so the track didn't have my full attention. Even still, I could feel energy being pulsed through my body (particularly my head), and at times I had the distinct feeling of floating. Tonight, I'll give the track my full attention and see how it goes.

Also, I'd like to know (from anybody who can help), how I can get my hands on the Abyss mp3. The file is no longer located where it originally was. Any help? I'd really appreciate it.