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[I I suppose I already did that, but will get a bit more explicit. This is however a peripheral belief and as you all know something I have never before felt a need to share with the AP. However since you ask so directly, here I go. I do ask that you respect my views and those of my fellowship as Beth has requested. We (I) believe that sex is a gift of God. His gift of love to us. The Devil actually hates sex, as it is a creative process. Sex however, without love (without a desire to love someone else) is meat without potatoes. To some this might sound as if it is a kind of holier than thou kind of sex but we believe that sex is erotic and should be exiting yet loving, we do not accept the fundamental mishmash about lust and love. Sex is sex, exiting, erotic, lusty and great. We accept sex before marriage if engaged in by consenting adults, and believe that even adults can have sex outside marriage, if it is in agreement with your partner, and within the bounds of what we term the law of love¨. (the greatest of these is LOVE)]

Please explain your Christian based attitudes toward sex.

I I suppose I already did that, but will get a bit more explicit. This is however a peripheral belief and as you all know something I have never before felt a need to share with the AP. However since you ask so directly, here I go. I do ask that you respect my views and those of my fellowship as Beth has requested.

We (I) believe that sex is a gift of God. His gift of love to us. The Devil actually hates sex, as it is a creative process. Sex however, without love (without a desire to love someone else) is meat without potatoes. To some this might sound as if it is a kind of holier than thou kind of sex but we believe that sex is erotic and should be exiting yet loving, we do not accept the fundamental mishmash about lust and love. Sex is sex, exiting, erotic, lusty and great. We accept sex before marriage if engaged in by consenting adults, and believe that even adults can have sex outside marriage, if it is in agreement with your partner, and within the bounds of what we term the law of love¨. (the greatest of these is LOVE)  

How about toward birth control?

We leave that up to folks themselves to decide. Though we are categorically against abortion which we consider murder. We do feel however, that contraception is different. If you use it you are OK, if not you are OK. I have been married 2 times and have 15 children. I love them all and see each one as a gift of God.

Toward women in general?

Though we believe that the sexes are loved equally by God, we believe women have an ¡ "advantage". They are smarter (and certainly prettier) ha aside from that we believe that at this time in the earth's history it is a time for women to lead, through a superior sensitivity to the spirit. They are however not to use this in pride but should be humbled and sweet and consider it their responsibility rather than getting all uppity. Only in working together and esteeming each other (the sexes) better than one self will we ever be able to get where we are going.  

Your position on the Eucharistic meal, aka, The Lords Supper.

It was the only real tradition or shall we say or formal worship, that Jesus asked us to observe. We are not bound by what we eat and drink and can do it with water and cookies. The spiritual idea is the point.  We are the body of Christ all believers, and through partaking in faith we receive unity and healing. As to the timing it says ,as often as ye to this you do it in remembrance of Me, so we sometimes do it weekly or every day and sometimes not for a year. Depending on the setting.

If your view is transubstantiation, i.e., magical transformation of bread and wine into Christ's body and blood, explain how you understand this to occur. Or if this ritual is only a symbol, how does it fit into your overall belief and practice?

How about hell, purgatory and the afterlife?

We believe that Purgatory is one of the doctrines that the Catholics got right. We believe in Universal reconciliation, that eventually all will come to understand the Love of God. That by praying for departed spirits we can still help them and that salvation in the spirit world is a possibility. Hell is a continuation of the hellish lives people live on earth not a punishment for sin as in the 10commandments. All have sinned and come short, but rather it is a very basic learning level the cellar of heaven you might say and upward progress is possible. The belief system territories are not only inhabited by Christians and we expect to find a few from the pulse there as well. Ha.

How does your Christian belief support or discourage astral investigation, or other topics that this forum addresses?

We encourage it but leave it up to the individual. We do however practice Prophecy (Channeling ) and live our every day lives as individuals, by it. Visions and spiritual exploration is encouraged and we believe that a person is judged by their motive not only their action. There does seem to be rules of attraction and behavior like attracts like like yet angels mostly stay incognito. We believe in Spirit helpers and that departed believers act as helpers for the ones asking their help

Certainly include any other beliefs that differ from the well-known conservative beliefs that you would like to share with us.

We believe that Church Christians i.e. Fundamentalists are an abhorrence to God. Lukewarm hypocrites, and that the Churches (maybe especially the American Churches have led more people astray than any drug user or whatever. We are in constant battle with churches and religious people and receive profound persecution from fundamentalists, who have taken our kids away and lied about us to instigate the powers that may be against us. We do however rejoice and count it an honor though it is often hard to endure. I have myself on different occasions been jailed and tortured for my faith. Maybe that is why it is so dear to me. WE are by most Churches considered in error and misguided, yet see ourselves as average Christians............we are just having more fun and getting more done. Ha Our fellowship number 10.000 active missionaries. Membership without service is not accepted. Everyone is expected to be a Missionary and engage in loving folks into HEAVEN, and minimizing ungodly influences and certainly try not to get too self righteous ha.

Hope this is a help

Regards Mustardseed

Thanks Beth ..........well I am Danish. Also I am a Christian of  a different kind............wanna know how different ...........all you have to do is ask................We all have different lives and stories to tell.

Regards Mustardseed

Ha .........yea makes one think doesn't it......hmm  

Your post is well put Beth it is a very refreshing blast to read your own opinion as for what it is.........your opinion.

I do agree that the chickens are home to rost, it comes to us all at one time or another. What is it about getting back what you give out.

Regards Mustardseed

Well ........that is very interesting maybe I do have a bit of that whatever it was. (after all I have been married for 30 years)  So let me get back to being openly hostile then.  

Let me restate my point and explain how I see it being on subject. It is my opinion that very "rigid" folks (such as yourself) often find contradictions where there are none. Even getting to a point where they get aggressive and hostile and extremely sensitive if others challenge their beliefs. (as in fundamentalist )

They define things very rigidly and subsequently, if they do not understand something, they often throw it on the "contradiction" pile and as a result end up quite negative and doubtful about many things. Since they consider their very dogmatic views the absolute TRUTH, against which they measure everything they also get involved in many mind battles and arguments, instead of debates and sharing observations.

Like I said, often this is very intelligent people such as yourself Beth and they often resort to very unkind cutting remarks to put down folks they consider misinformed or ignorant or misguided.

This attitude is shared by not only religious people but also academics, and only tend to further cloud up the real issues...... The actual contradictions, or what appears to be contradictions. I guess it is a common ailment of man........pride.

So all though my post is not on contradiction in religion as per se, I find it is still on subject. I find it very interesting and yet disheartening that you get so off keel by my post, that you start to question my mental health.

I hope you understand what I am trying to say. Incidentally I seem to find this attitude very strong in the USA, it permeates society to a much larger degree than in other parts of the world. It seems that the by product or the other side of the coin, of the American aggressive and innovative spirit is a very hostile attitude to people they consider in opposition to. themselves.

It is my opinion that you define things too rigidly and judge too fast, and often miss out on the points others are trying to make. Like Ann Oakley was that her name.........she was pretty trigger happy and could match any man or woman, yet could never see the real issues in life. I loved that old movie, saw it as a kid.

Ahh what will the future bring, what insults cutting remarks and slights you will be sending my way

As I said I do appreciate your input I have learned a lot from you but you do come across a bit dogmatic and at times quite high on the hog.

Regards Mustardseed

PS as I said in my PM it would be fun to meat you maybe at a venue somewhere. Don't go freaking out about that now

Dear Beth

So sorry that you take it that way it was not intended. I will be quiet.  I think that what you have to give is way more important than then points I brought out, just thought I could help. My apologies.

Regards Mustardseed

Dear Beth

I have a few observations if you don't mind. I think that often the issue is not so much in a difference of belief but rather definition. It seems to me that you as a scholar are used to defining things very strictly. "If this is what you believe you go in that box, if that then that box" etc Much like earth science separating living things into groups mammals amphibians etc. This is apparently the only way you feel that a logic argument can be made, and maybe what we all miss..............but maybe not.

On this board as you well know it seems however that folks do not always know what they know so to speak, they have ideas and inspirations yet do not know the terms and definitions of said ideas, and you then spend long posts telling them "what they believe" so to speak.

I have tried to follow your arguments many times but often fail to relate to your points. Your intelligence and knowledge in your field is unquestionable and very inspiring, yet I find that with all your learning you sometimes miss a few things here and there. This is not said as a criticism of you but seems to be the by product of being a learned person.

In some ways Robert Bruce in his books, and also here on the net made a great break through in this area. He somehow was able to transcend established structures and discuss the issues themselves. He stayed away from "boxes" and definitions like Chakras Karma etc and just discussed the content of the box.

I don't know if I make myself clear it is just an observation, but it seem that in your area of expertise you have created a belief system or rather a non belief system with a very rigid support grid.

The idea that God can be in a box and even that he can be explained is IMO ludicrous in the first place. I think we all agree that there is a guiding force and we are all concerned with tapping into it, like a giant reservoir, but it seems that you often get into "how it will not work" or "what is not true" instead of what is and what will, making you the "judge or referee" in various discussions, rather than a player.

This emphasis on the more negative aspect of beliefs, seem a common pitfall to academics. It is not a big deal and is not said to minimize all you have to share but just a observation.

Regards Mustardseed

All joking aside..............I think the beef is that Religious folks feel offended and feel that their FAITH is being unfairly judged. The movie is fiction but like so much fiction today it is clothed in something resembling the truth as it "could have happened". It basically blasphemes against the tenants of Christianity as accepted by millions of Christians and they get afraid that their God cannot handle his own reputation.

The situation is in every way the same as the pictures of Mohamed, all this shows is how the different religions deal with blasphemy.

Regards Mustardseed

We in (CREAP) Christian Run off the mill Evangelical Average Pholks) (that's our name) hereby solemnly swear that we will bomb every single movie theatre and video outlet store that shows rents or distributes the movie.

We (CREAP) furthermore demand that Mr Brown be handed over to US to be publicly executed by "sermonizing" (12 Fundamentalist pastors have all ready volunteered their services)

Furthermore we state that anyone who replies to this post or post anything about this unfortunate incident be executed as well.

Kids who ask questions will receive candy before execution to soften the blow with a sugar rush.

So people lets all agree this was no good and repeat after me

There is no mystery we know all there is to know about God

There is no mystery we know all there is to know about God'

There is no mystery...................

PS thanks to our Muslim brothers for showing us how conflicts such as these are handled

Hi Beth
thanks for the emoticons . Very interesting post I will have to read it again as it is quite the argument. I loved the last quote and agree

Regards Mustardseed

Contradictions in religions..............hmmmm lets see. Do I have anything to say about that.Yea I guess I do. I find it quite amusing that a religion is seen as "faulty" and subsequently dismissed as false because it contains contradictions. I find many contradictions in life but not all of them means that life is false.

People are enigmas as well yet not false but often ignorant of the wider implications of different issues. Like a famous ogre said "ogres are like onions" maybe its all about layers. Maybe instead of trying to dismiss religion and religious people with sarcasm and put downs or equally patronizing, intellectual correct and well formulated arguments, (see we all do it )   we should try to just reason together. Just talk together and see what happens.

Arguments and force full dismissals of fellow travelers views seem to be futile. Now THAT is a contradiction. People who want to enlighten others think they can do it by "darkening" their path with unkind cuts and remarks. All an argument proves is that there are 2 people present. Often it would be help full to define that the debate is about as well. Does a contradiction in a religious book prove anything about the nature of God. It seems equally absurd to prove or disprove God from the pages of a book.

Maybe that is not what irks people.....maybe some just gets upset that people are ignorant and stupid or CHRISTIAN ( admit it it really P***** you of dosn't.t it). Well live with it, and deal with it. Africans that beat drums to dispel the power of spirits are held in scorn by Americans who blow their horns to break up traffic jams. Ha or Christians that are warned of the falseness of their religion by republicans (or Democrats) who have full faith in the just cause of some crazy war somewhere, or maybe by smart intellectuals who have a hard time sleeping at night for fear of death!!!!!

Contradictions come in many forms and runs deep in humanity, so does self righteousness a judgemental attitude.

Come on all together now......all you need is LOVE da da da da da all you need is LOVE.......

Love to you all Mustardseed

Interesting points. I agree with you Beth about the way that Christians in your country seem to feel about sex. It is however worth it to note that this attitude of extreme "sexual phobia" or fear of eroticism also seem to be a very cultural thing. I always find it problematic when a group of people are described like a homogeneous entity. I am as you know Christian and do not share these views as a matter of fact in my country which was the first to lift the ban on porn in the 60s, sex is seen as a gift of god. Christians speak openly about it and freely admit to and promote using toys and all sorts of things to enhance their very active sex life. You seem in my opinion to have a very limited vision of Christianity but I can assure you that we are very different all over the world.

How about these

Hidden

the urinal

overthewaterunderthebridge

and the one on the opposite side of the canal

underthewateroverthestreet

both are spelled in one word

Something tells me Kim might be male..............methinkest

Dear Stacey

I apologize for not having replied sooner I have been out on the great Ocean cruising and have not had Internet access for some time now. I am not able to take up the thread at the moment and even if I did your questions are very confusing to me. Somewhere in the thread I explained how it works for me. It seems that "God" if we assume it is God, uses my intellect and mind for the formation of the sentences he speaks to me. Often I try to get something about a personal situation and my "channel" seems obstructed or somewhat colored by my minds knowledge or lack of knowledge of the situation. This is also the case if I ask something that is above my intellect's ability to comprehend, it sort of freaks my mind out in a sense, and I lose my "balance". A bit like Peter walking on the water and looking down and starting to sink. I get in the frame of mind that "this is just impossible" and just like when moving around in the astral, I create my own impossibilities. Hope you understand.

Regards Mustardseed

 oh bummer .......... Tossing Lolas statement in the bin marked "promises I reserve myself the right to break if I feel like it" .....OK then you can have your promise back.............I guess that's why you did not moderate the sweet little Nicky boy who called my faith "bovine excrement"....... it all depends on who's religion is being "slurred"      take this with a smile Lola, its just funny that's all. I still think your tights and glasses are cool

I do see your line of reasoning and agree to a degree .............however, the fact that we are not living in a past world of ignorance but a world where information is available to most folks,  seem to complicate this very reasonable argument. It appears that the clerics of the Muslim religion KNEW the truth, that the drawings that enraged the masses were not even published but a hoax, and also knew the difference between the two social structures. Yet they seems to want a cultural war to result. In the Dark ages people apparently never knew nor did they have access to information to see for themselves not clerics nor commoners. This seems more like a voluntary victim type of situation with lots of hidden political agenda.

Incidentally I just had a 3 hour meeting and discussion with the artist that drew the picture where The Prophet has a bomb in his turban, a very sweet and peace loving old gent, with no ulterior motive.

Regards Mustardseed

Changed my mind

I believe in freedom of speech
but not when it hurts people

Sorry just popped in to get me a quote I will keep it with me as a sort of insurance Lola  

PS It is a possibility that I would actually have something to add to your "knowledge bank" Leyla, facts maybe ideas or new understandings and viewpoints. Maybe to you it does not seem likely but still it is a possibility you cannot deny.........right.

That is .............Unless you have made up your mind that you know all there is to know, and that you have the full picture. This is what I find so interesting, you seem to be a very well read person and quite intelligent as well, why would you not want to learn more and explore other points of view........I can only assume that you think you know it all.

Mustardseed-

I thought it was against Christian prinicpals to lie. Yes, I am calling you out as a liar.  I have not slandared or name-called you.

Your fight is not with me. You were taught certain Biblical misinterpritations. Take it up with your parents, or your pastor.

I am not to blame for the fact that Jesus never said he was God, or that Jews don't bury their dead in a tomb.

This is a classic case of "Killing the messenger."

Come on Leyla In this conversation you are the aggressor.  I don't want to fight you. I have no problem talking to you but for you to call me a liar is not fair, it is by definition slander. I may be misinformed but lying indicates one knows the truth and are omitting it, it is not just having an opinion that is not shared by others.

About what I have been taught you have absolutely no idea. You do not know me at all, but assume that I am the run off the mill Christian that you are used to encountering. Assumptions are not necessarily truths, at least not till they have been confirmed, and this one is wrong.

Actually you assume too much, I have no pastor and my parents......that was a good one. Ha.

It just blows my mind how good you are at this little game. You know just what buttons to push, just like my teenagers you have perfected the art of arguing, without learning anything, it appears that for you winning means a lot. Proving your opponent wrong and shooting his arguments full of holes gives satisfaction to your ego. It is my opinion that such a attitude on a long term is detrimental to a person, in other words it might come back and bite you in the butt. Just friendly advice.

Regards Mustardseed

Hi Leyla
Well ........ha how do I say it. I guess I have to be honest with you. In the course of our conversation I have not really felt we connected, not even on an reasonable level. Most of what I said has been twisted and it is becoming clearer to me that you are not actually interested in a respectfull debate but find debunking through slander and name calling a better way. So have it your way Leyla. To me my dear you are just proving my point, a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. You seem to adhere to Wicca and most likely very anti Christian in your approach to life. ( besides not being Bangladeshi) That is not a problem for me, but I personally do not share your opinion. Is that OK with you...........without abuse:-) you seem biased bitter and almost vengeful, but what do I know I am a Christian .....by definition, (your definition) I am a deluded and manipulating individual.

I wish you all the best in life, as much as you allow yourself to enjoy.

Regards Mustardseed

Dear Leyla

Sorry you feel that way...........this however is your conclusion alone, not mine and I do not think..........Gods. I have often seen you express feelings of love and concern for others and a lot of good humor as well. According to the God I believe in He is then not absent from you............but very present

1 John 4:8 - He that loves not knoweth not God; for God is love.  (that would mean = he that loves knows god for God is love)

1 John 4:16 - And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwells in love dwells in God, and God in him.  

I love you too

Regards Mustardseed

Dear Leyla

Thanks for the reply. I realize that you are probably pretty ticked off and-........ well in your own way maybe a bit hurt at Gods seeming absence in your life.........always pretty irritating when he leaves you to make up your own mind.

I can't give you a lot, I honestly thought that you did not understand this issue and the controversy surrounding the old and new testament and it seems I was wrong. You however are also wrong if you assume it was arrogance that prompted me to answer you as I did.

The issue to me is not whether you can "crack" me or not...........much to your disappointment I was cracked a long time ago by people and loving wisdom which spoke to me on its own...........lets just say God cracked me.

The truth of God (as I see it) is not to be found in the church....nor in its very narrow minded interpretation of the Bible..Crack crack The truth is much bigger than most Christians realize , so maybe we do not disagree that much.....

The Truth tells me Leyla that a word of love spoken with kindness and with respect can bring souls together-----------it tells me that words great and swelling spoken in anger does nothing but hurt people....in my opinion and only mine..God loves you as much as me and Osama Bin Laden as much ad George W  Bush, he is not willing that any should suffer , for he is love true love and does not see right and wrong as we do.

Also anger and aggression are vain, they bring nothing good with them they are all together a waste of energy

Thanks for the instruction and setting me straight I wish you all the best

Regards Mustardseed

Dear Leyla
I am wondering if you are really interested, if you are I shall be glad to explain the issue but it is a quite involved issue and would require you to read some for yourself.The Bible is comprised of 2 books and in order to understand it in its entirety you would have to read what it says, any thing else would be hearsay.

I can assure you that the most raging religious controversy between Christians is exactly on this issue. Christians are not expected to keep the law laid out in the OT, but are expected instead to keep Gods law as described in the NT, which in essence is to love.

This is a problem for many Churches who feel their power over people would smolder , and so they ignore this and stay with old making their Church a mish mash of various OT and NT doctrines.


Explaining this from the NT is not complicated but I do not feel comfortable about doing it in this forum. I hope you understand.

If you are very keen just approach any Christian board and ask <"do I have to keep the 10 commandments to be pleasing God" the debate that unfolds will hold every doctrine for and against.  

Regards Mustardseed

I guess I was not so much asking about the pictures as the fact that the Mideast is spiraling into a crisis about it and threatening Fatwa as well a boycotting all danish goods. They are expecting the prime minister to put the cartoonist as well as the newspaper editor in jail