Messages

Hi Nay, pretty cool dream!

Must be a lot of fun do have these dreams. I always enjoy it when I haved special powers within dreams. This could be some kind of training like a school for telekinesis or something. I'm just reading a book called Dreamgates by Robert Moss which deals with similar things, could probably be of interest for you as well.
Cheers Tom

Hey Xetrov! nice to hear from you again! I was a little shocked about the abrupt ending of our discusion!
Concerning the "post-problem" I believe there is something wrong with the new board server.  There are some other users that report the vanishing of posts and even whole threads! See for example

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15745

as well as this:

Hi Guys....something went wrong with the forums when I was trying to reply to your post, Experimental..... I ended up posting about 5 times, then trying to delete them & for some reason the whole thread has disappeared ! I've retrieved the text (below) & hope you guys can post again !! sorry .....

I had a idea last nite that confused me somewhat ...

It was the fact that if you are trying to proove to yourself you have
left your body , through useing a number or a playing card, which was
previously hidden out of site to you from a freind or someone in the
physical . Then if i was in a Lucid dream , then that number or card
may appear wrong to the true physical counterpart ? , because while we
are lucid the expereince is more subjective...

If i m thinking right , then if i m haveing a subjective expereince ,
i have the power to shape shift the dimension i m percieving ( Lucid )
shapeing the enviroment useing my imagination , even if i m unaware of
that at times , so if i suddenly wake up with the dream in mind with
the number or card in my mind , then it should be the wrong number or
card , because the expereince was Lucid ? . Like for example if i
slightly thaught of the number as being " 57 " lets say , then the
number would appear as that number. ( as aposed to the true number )

But if the number matched up to the true physical number when coming
back awake as i remembered it or seen it , it would suggest that i was
percieving objectivly somewhat , which would explain what type of
expereinceing i was haveing , IE : either astral orientated or dream
related ?

I knows it sounds abit confuseing, its head doing lol , but very intersting

Experimental

: D

So the good news: Probably nobody is deliberatly deleting your posts, the bad news : there is a technical problem with the server that seems to be unnoticed.
Cheers Tom

Hi there!

I would really like to change my username since it is my realname. I unfortunately choose my real name for username when I subscribed to the Astralpulse forum . I now regret this cause I fear for my privacy (when one uses google and types in my real name as searchterm, all of astralpulse posts appear!)
This is quite uncomfortable and hinders my willingness to speak freely about my experiences in my posts.

Is there any way to change my username without loosing my account properties like "post count" etc. ? For example can the Administrator (please!) transfer my active account (at least Password, post count, settings) to a new account?!

Thanks Tom

@Magamba "For instance, there were other cards and objects there that were not really there. (Possibly fingerprints from another time?) I did not know which card to look at and then I noticed there was a box. Inside this box was only one card so I figured that this must be it. It was as if I just knew how to sift through the other stuff"

Very Interesting !So you guessed the right card then? Do you usually get it right or not?

@catmeow

I experience the same, words and numbers always mutate inside my lucid dreams (which is very wired, since the mind knows they shouldn't, if it is a subjectiv reality why does the mind not create it like it thinks it should be?)
I really wonder if Numbers and Writings are supposed to be stable inside OBE's has anybody verified this?
I once did a experiment with an other Projector from Brazil, I tried to guess the name of his mother. I decided to look at a wall inside the dream while aiming for the name I first saw the name "Berta" I think which latter turned out to be the name of his oldest sister which was about 45 years old. Then the word changed into Belta, Beate, Belte etc

Anyways one other lucid dreamer told me that he learned to read correctly inside dreams and sometimes reads books there!

confusing stuff!
Cheers Tom

Click on the link he gave........

Naiad780,

. i take seroquel, lexapro, adderall, and ablify.

.

Hmmm,  if you have serious illness like heavy depressions or other things like, which make your life unbearable without medication then I'll understand you take pills.
Note: I used the word unbearable, everybody has moodswings, anxiety or other problems, you yourself have to decide if you have to numb them since they are to heavy to handle or if you can solve the problem an other way .  If you take pills only cause somebody else thinks you should see, feel or be different then you are -> Not good!
This pills might obscure your mind, which probably does hinder your natural gift do perceive things from other planes of existence.

Cheers Tom

Maybe You  are afraid that something goes wrong during your first real meeting,  she doesn't like you or something and this fears manifest in your dreams?

tom say you were walking down the street thinking of your kids and someone youve never met socially or seen before describes your kids out loud to a friend to make sure you hear or even says their names out loud, but doesnt look at you or say anything to you.

Why should anyone do that? Especially the part "..to make sure you hear..." That sounds a little paranoid if you ask me. I'm not saying you make this up but I'm saying it is likely you are fooled by something (brain, mind, other conscious). Or at least you are tuned into a very different reality then I live in. If I were you,  I'll inform myself about  schizophrenia and be very critical concerning my own experiences. I mean, If you really suffer  schizophrenia you would be the last the notice!

 

what would you do if it didnt matter what you were thinking, but others did it, i mean this is a web site about dreams and telepathy right?
plus i see people impressed by the ideas i think, they admit it, some even flaunt it, famous or not.

??

by lucid dreaming i mean the fact that i notice my dreams while walking talking sleeping, constantly.

What do you mean by "Dreams" ? I only dream at night, or do you mean daydreaming?

pictures sounds feelings everything.  i mean i got shot in the abdomen, didnt go the hospital, did situps days later, went jogging, went to class...i didnt even realize what happened till months later

.

Strange indeed, What you experience is not common reality thats for sure.

 

then after the poison i felt asleep when awake and awake during sleep, a consistent barely alive feeling. im trying to get along with others but if others keep insulting me or attacking me, i wont be thinking about much but my own survival.

Why should they attack you, are you living in a war zone?

 

i feel like i shouldnt really post or talk like this much but this seems to be a proper place to use these words.  some people, such as people who speak out loud to others thoughts, or their thoughts of someone else speaking, in public places hardly seem like their serious about learning about dreams and real reality or want to discuss the dynamics of thought waves and frequencies.

I really do not know exactly what you are talking about. From all Info you give I would advise to seriously inform yourself about  schizophrenia, I mean of course you don't bother and you think it is real, that's how it works, ever seen the movie beautyful mind?
Either go to a doctor or use the shamanic way to go into your dreams and try to meet guides and teachers, ask for help there.

Just my opinion though,

Cheers Tom

So if you couldn't verify your experience by talking with other astral travelers who were there with you - would you be completely sure that it was only your imagination, only in your mind ?

No I actually would have no clue if it is my mind or not!

What if those other astral projectors would agree with you on anything except one small detail.

Then I would start to believe that it is not created by my mind exept maybe the little detail.

Code Select Expand

For example - you saw a herd of flying pink elephants flying around you all the time, but your friends didn't
Who is able to decide whether you saw something that wasn't there or your companions had trouble with seeing the elephants that were there ?
Hmmm, No idea. I guess it is not possible to decide

If their minds couldn't accept the possibility of existence of flying pink elephants, they wouldn't be able to see those elephants.

Yeah, thats indeed possible

And "experienced enough" would need to mean 100% objective.
If not - he would probably distort the reality and mix your perception of beauty with his.

Well yeah it probably would mean 100 % objective (if thats possible at all...)

Well you got me confused! Maybe there is no such thing as objective or real in the astral, Maybe it is like a merging scale. on the other hand there seem to be real (Not created by mind(s)) things there like other Spirits, Projectors, guides etc... there.

Code Select Expand

http://www.afterlife-knowledge.com/what.html

http://thegatewayexperience.com/monroeprograms/exploration27.htmlThanks paker7!

Cheers Tom

Hoi catmeow

Hoi tombodenmann!

(Look that's as good as it gets!)

Wow! I'm impressed! How do you know that?

Actually, I've just ordered the book...!

Oh good, I wonder what you think about it.

What do you do in all your LD anyway?

Good question...  Actually I love to just explore the environment.  I will usually just set off flying across the countryside, and marvel at the detail and clarity, which is usually just mind-blowing.  I don't do anything in particular, I just enjoy the experience, especially the flying/floating part.  I'm a bit embarrassed that I don't do anything more spiritually significant... but hey! I just enjoy the experience

!

Well, I don't think there is much wrong about enjoying a nice experience. I just suppose there are some even more mind blowing things to do, like meeting guides, travel to earlier lives and stuff like that. The book gives some nice directions how to do that (If it works    )

How can I learn to wake up slowly

Hmmm.... Don't move.  That's the advice.  Don't move!  When you wake up in the morning don't move any part of your body, don't shift your position to get more comfortable.  Definitely don't open your eyes.  Don't even twitch your finger.  Also, don't think.  Don't start to analyse anything because you will engage your "critical faculty" and before you know it you will be wide awake.   Let yourself drift back to sleep.  When you begin to see hypnagogic imagery, this is the time to try an exit procedure.  There are many exit techniques, such as imagining floating up, rolling over, spinning (around a vertical axis), "beaming" across the room, using RB's "rope" technique.  Sometimes I find it useful to try to move my dream (astral?) arms and wave them in front of my face.  I can actually feel them moving and see "transparent" arms in front of me.  For some reason this is a useful stepping stone to a complete "exit".  Once you can move your dream (astral?) arms you will almost certainly succeed at an exit.  It's useful to try all of this at the weekend, when you can have several attempts at "waking up slowly".

If you try this, then probably the first time nothing will happen.  But if you keep trying over and over again it will work.

I'll try it, thanks for the explanation!

Absolutely.  I agree, and I've thought (for some time) that the key is to learn and practice RB's NEW energy methods.  But I'm a bit lazy and I haven't really had the time to apply his techniques.  But I do intend to do this.

I started with NEW again as well, It takes a lot of time though. But I'll keep it up this time for at least 6 Months, lets see what happens.

I'll just quickly expand on what I suspect is happening with the "memory download".  I do think there are two copies of consciousness operating, one in the physical/etheric body and the other in the astral body.  When the atral returns to the physical body, there is some "combining" of the astral and physical/etheric memories.  The resulting combined memory may be perfect (and hence "utterly real"), imperfect (hence "dream-like") or somewhere in between.   Those people on this board (there are some) who describe their OBE's as "completely unlike" LD's have perfect download.

As you say there must be a way of perfecting the download!

Cheers!
catmeow

[/quote]
Thats a good explanation, it is very similar to what Robert Bruce says. I just wonder how the brain is able to mix two copies of memories without creating a total mess.  
Have you already tried to remember the OBE's inside the Lucid Dream?

Tschüss, Tom

Catmeow,

I posted the stuff alright, and I even looked at it afterwards, and even a day after it was still there. A friend of mine has read it too. So it did not dissapear at the moment of posting. I posted it right after sampson's post of Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:49 pm, and before your reply to him.

This happened 1 time exactly the same before, when just a few lines of text had been lost (deleted???) from one of my posts. I dont want to be paranoid but this is really weird, and something I never had on any other forum. Its a shame either way, if the forum isnt working right and randomly deleting (parts) of posts, or if someone is deleting it on purpose (did I violate any rules? would be nice to get some message if I did).

Anyway, weird.

Very strange.....But why would anyone delete your posts?  Maybe it just was a a strange coincidence. If it happens again I would contact the Mods or the Board Administrator, I think his name is Adrian

Well. I would like to help you and I guess some others to but I have great difficulty to understand you. What you mean by "constant lucid dreaming"? at night or day? What you mean by "People speaking to your thoughts" etc.
I would recommend you explain exactly what your problem is in order to get useful help.
Cheers Tom

I have a question for you:

What do you think is real and what is unreal ?
My expanded definition of these words :
Everything that happens or exists is real and there is no such thing as an "unreal thing

".

O.k. I try to answer this delicate question. I agree that everything that you experience is real for you per se. But is it real for others? Real is probably the wrong word to describe what I meant but I'll try:
I consider something real (in the context of LD/OBE) when it is perceivable by two independent consciousness, since it then appears to have a substance on it's own which is not generated by my consciousness.
On the other hand if this is not possible I have no reason to assume it has a substance on its own. I then would it label unreal/ fantasy/ internal experience. Without demeaning this internal experience I want to add.

For example : imagine a beautiful lady standing next to you - you just created her in the astral dimension and she is as real as you are, she exists in the astral therefore she is real.

If I imagine a beautiful lady and then somebody, experienced enough can go to the astral and find out her hair color how she looks etc.. then I would consider it to be a real lady in the above sense. If that is not possible I would label it unreal lady.

You can even create your physical reality - first create something or some situation in the astral and then pump it with energy and will it to the physical dimension.

In the astral reality people very often think that if the environment is perfectly stable then it must be more real than some other completely fluid area.

I have a theory:
The stability of an astral area is proportional to the number of entities in that area.

When you are alone in the astral - you can do everything, but if someone is with you there - his subconscious mind may think that it is impossible to do something that you want to do and this can potentially block some of your creations and your private "reality fluctuations".

Nice theorie, It should be possible to test if you are right.

If you can, just go to The Park in F27 (always very crowded place) and try to change something big and important - i'm pretty sure that you will fail

What is F27?    How can I get there?

Cheers Tom

Reply to catmeow

Hi Tom

This is getting tough!

I know!.........

I'm sorry but I missed your reply to my post...  not sure how

, but I did... so here are some answers:

And btw your English is much better than my Swiss (and Xetrov's English is much better than my Dutch!)

Hehe, don't hesistate to try though...

Not a chance! lol

lol..Chuchichäschtli.....

[Well your viewpoint with the merging states is close to mine, how would you define the line between LD abd OBE, How do you recognize it yourself when having the experience?

That's tough.  In the RTZ I think it's probably simpler, because you can check your immediate environment with what it really should look like.  This is an especially good test if you go outside into the street, make some observations and then come back and wake up.  You can then compare these observations with what is really going on in the street, eg did you see the cars parked there properly? was the weather correct? etc

O.k. I see. Now I wouldn't be so hard with myself; as soon as real things appear that I could verify afterward I would call it Obe. But I admit, that this is indeed a bad criterion. Now, have you ever experienced this completely stable Obe's were writings don't mutate nothing fades or suddenly appears and things turn out to be exactly in the real world as they appeared in the Obe. This would be a awesome experience which would indeed separate LD and Obe. unfortunately, from what I experienced and heard Obe's rarely ever are this way.  But if you have this kinds of Obes that would be quite something .

Most of my experiences fail this test, ie there is simply too much fantasy for me to consider them to be real experiences, so I assume these are just an internal dream experience.  Only occasionally has there been a good correlation.  On these occasions, the experiences also felt much more realistic, than in the other cases.  So these would perhaps be OBE's and the rest were LD's.

But wouldn't it probably be more correct to assume (like Robert does) that Obe's and dreams kind of mix. So it is usually neither a completely exterior nor a completely internal experience but a mixture?

My definition of subjective is "private" and objective is "public".  In other words a subjective experience is a personal, private experience, not shared by others, occurring in a private reality.  On the other hand an objective experience is a public experience, occurring in some sort of shared or consensus reality.   There has to be a very strong degree of consensus for something to be classified as "objective", in other words a lot of people have to share the experience, not just two (as in the dream I shared with my mother).

o.k. I see. I actually would define a experience as (at least partly) objective as soon as other people (like your mother) confirm it. But I respect your viewpoint as well.

The physical world is truly objective, since we all agree on it

.

Things are (unfortunately) not this simple (At least thats what they teached my in philosophy of science at the university) but this would be a long discussion again and I wanna save your free time

Hmmm I sense that you demean alittle the LD-experience itself, There are very good books on this for example "Dreamgates" by Robert Moss

Yes, maybe I do demean it a little, I'll get his book and read it! (I will)

I suppose you won't regret it. What do you do in all your LD anyway? I used to do fly around alittle do some experiments and well just do anything I guess. But as i now learn (from the book mentioned) there seem to be quite some useful things one can undertake when lucid. I will use my future LD's more carefully now. You are really a lucky person having these LD daily!

It sounds odd, but I did this by reading, reading, reading....  I became so obsessed by LD and OBE that I read every book I could find on it.  When you live, eat and breathe a subject it stays with you day and night.  So when I went to sleep and started to dream I would just become lucid automatically.  Not every night but perhaps once or twice a week.  I just developed this conditioned reflex.  

I also had other techniques.  The most successful was (and still is) to catch myself waking up in the morning, and then simply go back to sleep, but remain lucid.  Once again, to do this you have to train yourself to wake up slowly.  It's no good if bang! you wake up suddenly and are fully alert.  You have to wake up slowly and become aware in the "mind awake body asleep" state.  You can then enter the LD state easily.

Nice, How can I learn to wake up slowly  

Strangely, by far the easiest way (for me) to do this is to go through an "exit" procedure, ie to imagine myself floating into the air and then landing on the floor.  When I used to do this the only sense I had at this time was one of movement.  After landing I would feel for the wall behind me, then feel for my bedroom door.  I would then actually open the door and step out of my bedroom.  At this point I usually obtained full vision, hearing and all the other senses.  Nowadays I can actually see whilst I float up to the ceiling.  It's a very curious sensation.  I have several other "exit" techniques to use if this one fails.

Cool...

I must admit that it is curious that the best way for me to get into an LD is to use an OBE exit technique, but this is the case.  And yet I claim that this leads to an LD rather than an OBE!

Funny indeed!

 

But to me the resulting experience is too fantasy-laden to classify as "real".  Well usually that is.  It's still a great experience though.  I do think the reason for this is incomplete memory recollection ("memory download" - RB) as described in my earlier post.

This is interesting, So you would say, You have a Obe but fail to download the experience completely and therefore this demeans the Obe into a LD... hmm... I'm sure there is a way to improve that download process.

That's an interesting idea, I'll give it a try!

Let me know what happens!

Cheers Tom

Reply to Xetrov

Ok I will try to explain my view on this as clear as possible. First of all I strongly suspect there is more to our consciousness then a mere physical body. ESP, near death experiences, working with energy etc show to me that most likely there is a duality: a physical body and connected to it, the spirit.
With that last word I mean the entire collection of non physical substance (not (yet) explained by science), that exists as part of an individual. It would be interesting indeed to know for sure what this exactly is.

A lot of native religions actually work with 3 Parts: Body, Spirit, Soul, just a thought.....

Is it like Bruce claims, possible to separate different "bodies" and thereby transferring different "copies" of consciousness into multiple bodies? To me, consciousness (and indeed the body-spirit system generating our consciousness also) is an integrated whole and not dividable into different parts that seem to lose connection to each other, as Bruce says. I do agree that splitting consciousness is possible (as in ESP, remote sensing), but when you do this all parts of consciousness stay linked together (it stays integrated as one whole), so what actually happens is we are expanding our consciousness beyond its ordinary physical boundaries.

From what I know this seems not to be the case (unfortunately), at least not if we assume the Mind-split-effect to be real. Now, I havent experienced it, but I guess there are people here on the board that have.
If this is true, then you cannot say that conscious just expands cause that would mean you must be conscious of all "parts" of it at the same time (by definition) which is not the case. If there are really multiple copies of conscious possible, operating at the same time, which are not aware of each other, then I would call it "a splitting of conscious" if that is not possible I would call it a "Expansion of conscious". However, I do not know how many people have experienced the mind-split-effect.

Although I would prefer an expansion of conscious, like you describe it, cause it sounds more "calming" If you put Soul into the equation one could come up with the following scenario:
Conscious, Spirit (like you defined it) and Body are generated by Soul. Spirit and Conscious can indeed split into apparently independent parts but the Soul this connected with all  this parts at anytime, So we in a way stay integrated as one whole like you said. Well just a thought anyway.

 

That is also why I do not call the Bruce OBE's 'real' OBE's because consciousness stays integrated and at all times linked to the physical body.

o.k. I see. I, on the contrary, would still call it real, even if this is the case.

To me an out of body experience is the equivalent of a NDE because here the entire spirit is set free of the physical body, and set free in the astral

Well but this would lead to a dangerous situation, somebody could kill you physically, you could get lost in the astral, other entities could take your body.....all this can only be prevented if there remains a connection between spirit and body.

That said I can, however, imagine the following viewpoint of the people here: when going into a RB type OBE we clearly (certainly those who are quite advanced at it) experience "astral phenomena" (By ESP, but what exactly "astral phenomena" are and what matters fall under this definition, is a new discussion again).So if we experience astral phenomena and these are not part of our physical bodies, then we clearly experience something from beyond our body, thus labeling the experience OBE.

O.k. I can agree with that.

Besides this, if we define OBE as the following (as a lot of people seem to do here) "any moment where our consciousness is not aware of our physical body and/or its current local surroundings", then indeed a RB type OBE definitely classifies as OBE. It has already been said that in this case we are almost always out of our bodies or perhaps even never really "in" there at the first place. To me however being in the body means that our consciousness is connected to and/or generated by it.

No I don't think that this is labeled OBE since you are still aware of your physical body and don't perceive the eviroment with the feeling of being completely some were else. As soon as you do, though, I would label it as Obe.

Imagine the following theoretical situation however: as human beings we keep evolving, our awareness and consciousness of ourselves and of the universe keeps growing (a likely possibility i think). When this happens there will be a point when your definition of OBE will be no longer of relevance, since our awareness by then always includes our physical body and our physical location. Well just a thought anyway....

If that would happen, the term Obe in the above definition would be pointless indeed. Won't happen anytime soon I guess  

I think our disagreement here stems again from our differences on what OBE is, I hope this is cleared up by now. But still i don't see why a RB type OBE would not be possible in deep sleep if what Bruce says is true

.

If Robert is right Obes in deep sleep should be possible BUT inducing Obes while in deep sleep don't have to be possible.

However if I am right it (strongly, I think) points to the idea that LD + ESP can explain all RB type OBE. Perhaps I could ask Bruce's opinion of this matter and see what he comes up with.

Please do

Cheers Tom

Hello people,

Just a quick question

Bruce stated that "The only way to tell for sure is if there is no break in consciousness from start to finish. "

Does he mean here that to be sure it is an OBE, you have to be sure there is a continuous flow of consciousness? Or not? (im confused)

As I understand it, he means that your conscious never blacks out (Falls asleep) Meaning that you are awake then you lay down induce a Projection and afterwards you come "back" stand up and remember the whole thing without a gap.
On the other hand I don't see any difference between WILD and Astral Projection then (I'm confused too...), so I might be wrong here.
Cheers Tom

[nothing is real]

Let's define what we are talking about:

Dreaming:
Being in a different reality (The Astral) without being aware of this fact.

Lucid dreaming:
Knowing that what you see/experience is not a physical reality and most often believing that it is all created by your mind and happening "inside" (and therefore believing that nothing is real).

Astral travel/projection:
Exploring non physical realities and knowing that everything that you experience is "outside" - and no matter if created by you or not - everything is real.

OOBE:
Two definitions.

1. For me OOBE is every experience that does not involve my physical senses (dreaming,lucid dreaming,astral projection,real time projection etc).

2. For some people being out of body is exclusively being in Robert's "real time zone".



So if you meant to ask how to convert LD to AP - my answer is:

The only difference between LD and AP is a false opinion of being "inside" (LD) and a proper knowledge of exploring the "outside" (AP) - that is why IMHO LD and AP are exactly the same thing (just different terminology).

But if your question is how to convert LD to OOBE definition #2 then my reply would be:

Will yourself near your physical body and/or say loud "i am in the real time zone", be absolutely sure that you are here and you will be.

So, you said that on an Astral projection one knows everything is real while in a LD one believes it is no real (although it is), did I understood you right?
So my question then would be: How can I know (see/realize) that everthing in the LD is real? (Since that would make it a Astral Projection, right?)

Cheers Tom

Hi!

I would be extremely interested in knowing how any of you know the difference for sure.

All of my out of body experiences have so far been into what is called the RTZ (Real Time Zone) below are a some of the symptoms and attributes that I feel separate this experience from a dream for me:

Precursors to the projection are clear crisp sounds that resemble ripping Velcro and a sound similar to somebody walking on a gravel path - I experience sounds in my dreams but these are quite unlike the above and do not share their clarity.

I always exit through my head - I never experience this strange phenomenon when I dream.

I always have the same dimensions out of body, which are about the size of a tennis ball - In the dream state my body feels as if it has the same dimensions as it does in the physical, although on occasion this can change.

I always project into my bedroom - I rarely have dreams about my bedroom and when I do they are never as clear and vivid nor as simple and ordinary as when I leave my body. Another note here is that I have had an RTZ projection whilst staying away from home in a hotel, I projected out of body directly into the room in which I was staying.

Awareness and sensitivity to my environment is extremely heightened in all aspects - Although I experience my senses in the dream state they seem dulled in comparison to when I am out of the body.

Projection ends with a blackout - My dreams either tend to merge or fade into the next or I awake naturally after a REM/Dream cycle.

I suppose one could argue that an experience with characteristics of the above could be said to be a 'special kind of recurring dream' with very specific qualities.

I have had lucid dreams where I have projected too, these dreams served as a good comparison to what I would call my true RTZ experiences. The lucid dream projections shared all of the characteristics of a real projection but were much more toned down and felt false and a weak copy in contrast.

In these lucid dream projections it's almost as if I am applying my own interpretation of how I feel the projection experience should follow rather than experiencing the associated phenomena as a separate accompaniment to the true experience. The lucid dream projections also took place in locations other than my bedroom, these locations were vague and unfamiliar and very dream like.

I feel that dreams always serve a purpose of some kind, but when I project I tend to just sit in my tennis ball like form near my head, feet or in another part of the room in the quiet and just peacfully observe, this is quite unlike my dreams and is a very conscious experience.

I feel that I know the difference between the two for sure mainly through having the experience itself, I wish I could share that feeling with others but unfortunately I can't   .

Cheers

S

Nice Post, I do not have much time right now to reply.

Sampson would you mind copie your post and post it again in the following thread in the dream forum, I started? It would fit perfectly there too, especially in reply to Paker7. Thanks
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15487

@catmoew

Tee hee.....   Yes Tom, I do work and am very busy, and this is eating into my free time!!

Yes indeed! So I'll try to write short.

And btw your English is much better than my Swiss (and Xetrov's English is much better than my Dutch!)

Hehe, don't hesistate to try though...

I consider NDE to be a type of OBE.  From what I've read and heard about NDE, it does appear to be a "real" experience, as opposed to LD which (IMO) is a subjective fantasy experience.

So I distinguish three experiences:

LD = subjective, fantasy, "dream" experience
OBE = objective, real experience
NDE = objective, real experience (?)

Well your viewpoint with the merging states is close to mine, how would you define the line between LD abd OBE, How do you recognize it yourself when having the experience?

So you believe that OBE can happen without NDE then?

Absolutely.  This is where I suspect I disagree with Xetrov.

Yes indeed, thats what I meant when I said you have conflicting viewpoints, but enough of that.

Yes, I have experienced this myself.  The best was a dream I shared with my mother.  This was an LD which I initiated via my normal "exit" procedure.  I travelled to my mother's home and met her there.  I did a few tricks like walking through walls and floating around.  Later when I woke up I phoned her to discover she was in a state of shock.  She had had EXACTLY the same dream as me (at the same time) and was sure I must have died, since the dream was so strange.  

But to me, this experience felt like a dream.  It did not feel real.  I explain it as LD with ESP.  It was an internal subjective experience, but shared with my mother via ESP.

Interesting I gave some comments on the problems of definitions in the reply to Xetrov. What do you mean by subjective and objective?

Regarding LD, RB talks in great detail about this in chapter 23, and in fact his position is identical to mine.  On p323:

As the physical body and mind fall asleep, a copy of consciousness is reflected into the etheric body, and from there into the projectable double as it is generated, and later into the astral and higher subtle bodies.  While this is happening, the physical/etheric copy of the mind begins sliding toward another type of projection, an internal projection into the dream environment

This is exactly my position.  Whilst we LD, we are using a type of consciousness which is still bound to ("residing in" if you like) the physical body.  RB actually mentions the term "physical/etheric" body.  This is an old Theosophical (Eastern tradition) concept.  The "etheric" double is supposed to be a type of ultra-gaseous physical double.  It's the physical "aura" if you like.  But I digress.

Well fine I have not enoughexperience to say much on this

So we have a copy of physical/etheric consciousness which is "dreaming" in an "internal" (fantasy) world, and at the same time we have a copy of astral consciousness which is having an "external" (real) experience in the astral world.   When the OBE finishes, the memory of the OBE is lost because this memory fails to re-integrate back into the physical consciousness.  So all we remember is the "dream" experience, rather than the real astral experience.   In my case this is an LD, because I am conscious during my dreams.

Hmmm I sense that you demean alittle the LD-experience itself, There are very good books on this for example "Dreamgates" by Robert Moss

So all I'm saying is to be more critical of your experience.  If it seems like a dream, it probably is.  As I said in an earlier post, there is plenty of research into LD and OBE and the differences are:

LD:  Low level of consciousness, poor memory, low critical faculty, many fantasy elements, tendency to slip back into a normal dream, low sense of "reality", impaired senses, etc

OBE: Heightened level of consciousness, often described as "expanded consciousness", no or few fantasy elements, sensation of "utter reality", heightened perception, sometimes 360 degree vision, additional senses, communication via telepathy etc

But there seems to be a very thin red line between them, which nobody can really gasp.

Ever since the age of about 15 I started to practice LD.

How?

I'm fairly certain that I'm active "astrally" pretty much every night, because my astral experiences reflect into my dreams which are usually of flying, swimming, running effortlessly great distances, leaping effortlessly, skiing, spinning, moving at high speed in various different ways.  These dreams all have a very special quality which distinguishes them from ordinary dreams.  Quite often I just float around in my dreams, and then I realize I'm dreaming (because I'm floating).  But as I say, these are all "physical/etheric" memories.  The actual astral memory is lost when I wake up.

other LD-dreamers said to me that if I would Try to remember my OBE's during LD's the memory would easily come, maybe You should try this, I haven't so far.

Cheers Tom

@Xetrov

Hi again

I must say, as your viewpoint becomes more clear to me I see that I agree with you on must parts, definitions seem to be the main Problem.

You put words  into my mouth i didn't use. Of course not all of Bruce's ideas are wrong! Anyway, good idea, i might ask this question to him on the QA section By

I didn't mean to say you said that. I would enjoy reading your questions on the QA-section, I have been active there too.

agree totally. Since the experiences in the astral while the body is alive are processed by the active physical brain too (Clark has some interesting idea on this by the way), physical limitations should have some influence on our astral perception while we are alive. I say this is because, while our spirit is connected to a physical body, our perception and awareness is both influenced by the physical body (sensory input, for one, processed by the brain before it enters our awareness) and by our spirit. So we see that there is a difference between perception in a NDE-OBE and in a RB type-OBE, differences caused by the fact that during the first we are really out of our bodies and perceiving the astral through our astral senses entirely, while during the latter we are not out of body and perceiving any astrally related information through ESP, thereby also processing the information through our physical brain. That is why I say we are not really 'placed' in the astral in the first place during a RB type OBE, since if we were we would be in a NDE (spirit leaving physical body), which is clearly not the case since brain activity stays normal and the heart keeps beating regularly.

From me personal experience I would conclude that the experience itself is not so much limited but the ability to remember after waking up is in fact limited by our physical body.

Clearly it looks as if NDE-OBE and RB type OBE are two totally different phenomena? You said yourself that as long as the physical body is alive the Astral experiences are limited, and yet you claim that your spirit has left the body at RB type OBE. How can these experiences be limited, if we are totally free? Being totally free clearly negates the limitations, which happens in NDE-OBE. Why are these limitations then still in place with a RB style OBE?

Well in this area I think we still have some misunderstandings. Being really out of body and being totally free, why should they belong together? I mean you now really sit in front of your computer, does that mean you are completely free? I don't associate Out of body with being totally free.

I think we neglected the most important factor of our discussion which is:
What is "You" what is "Self" what is "Spirit"? the question whether we really leave our body is dependent on this definitions. If we do not understand the same thing as "Self" we never will be able to reach common ground. In my view "Self" is conscious, awayness, there for I actually would say: when I sit on a bench daydreaming of my girlfriend I'm out of my body. This may sound odd, but it is a matter of viewpoint.

Now, how do you define "Self" or "spirit" ? Do you believe in a solid entity which could be labeled "soul" or maybe you say "self" is "all your memory, your awayness, your physical body and your current conscious"  then of course you can only really leave your body when dead. You see this question is I believe the most important. If we discuss whether or not one leaves his body we have to know exactly what we mean by "YOU", What are "YOU"?
If I had realized that point earlier I would have brought it up and saved us some time, sorry about that.

Here you touch upon a very delicate point. I know it could be interpreted as demeaning when i say, no we aren't really free out of our body. I would most likely feel exactly the same way as all of you when i was in your position. But so what if the experience would be "limited" because of the fact that its partly generated by the physical brain? So what if that does limit the scope of it? Really, there is still so much interesting stuff to explore and experience before you in the end will be able to go into an NDE-OBE. All the experiences posted on this forum,all the experiences of all the members here show this to be true. Also I have not said  that no "true" astral exploring can take place, since you can still perceive it through different ways, for one by ESP and by feeling the astral around you (energy, entities, whatever). To really grow spiritually and to expand your consciousness and your love from within yourself, you have to be patient.

I'm glad to see that we agree here.

It isnt for nothing that Bardon's followers and Yogi's train themselves for ages and ages before they can really at last leave their physical bodies.

this comes back to the defition of "leave body" I guess

Yet it seems  to be a characteristic of most contemporary western spiritual movements to get the most results as fast as possible, which is understandable because we are curious to explore!  But spirituality isnt fast food (no insult intended at anyone here). We should not lean on our desires (to advance as fast as possible) when explaining our experiences, doing so will only hold us back. You know, I do not say that I have to be right per se in my ideas, but at least it provides a congruent alternative viewpoint which all of you should consider carefully, and not dismiss right away because it would not at once meet with your current desires.

This is indeed true I'll think about it.

I will show you the logic behind the argument I gave, why the visual cortex is inactive during deep sleep so no RB style OBE's take place. Besides from experience this argument goes as follows: dreams are initiated during normal / REM sleep by the neurotransmitter acetylcholine. This is common knowledge but I will link you to one random site that mentions it (there are many more) :

(http://www.todaysparent.com/toddler/sleep/article.jsp?content=20040210_105446_3120)

Here it states that "The release of acetylcholine in the brain switches on the furnace that fires dreaming". What happens with this neurotransmitter in deep sleep (also called low wave sleep)? Levels are significantly decreased. For example see:

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/101/7/1795

Which mentions deep sleep and "the accompanying low levels of acetylcholine". I could give a more extensive amount of links that go into the matter, but the point is clear this far i hope. The deeper we go into deep sleep the less active this acetylcholine becomes. So when we are fully in delta wave deep sleep (brainwaves << 4Hz), there is no dreaming and no visuals, thus the visual cortex is not giving signals to our consciousness anymore. I and many others who can sustain lucidity during deep sleep have verified this. It is true that in the initial phase of deep sleep still some dreaming occurs. This is because brainwave activity overlaps, during the first stages of deep sleep there are still theta brainwaves (besides the delta waves), so dreaming is still possible although already diminished. When only delta waves remain, no dreaming whatsoever is possible and it is not possible to go into a RB style OBE.  
You can also not force yourself into a dream from pure delta sleep unless brainwave frequency goes back up again to theta and higher (this can go quite fast).

This whole argument is based on the (possible false) premiss that the dream state must be present in the brain in order to experience OBE's. Thats why I said one had to do tests to explore this.
For example somebody that is very good in OBE staying outside the body until Brainwaves indicate "No dreams" then a Physical sign is revealed and then the person must describe this after he woke up. But this kind of experiments are way too hard to do.

First of all this argument to me seems an elaborate invention to circumvent the logical and proved arguments I gave on dreaming in deep sleep. Perhaps your argument goes as follows: we are in normal sleep, we initiate RB type-OBE and thus a copy consciousness is released, and our original copy goes to deep sleep, thus proving that RB type-OBE during deep sleep is possible. Perhaps this is true, but my original argument is that according to RB it should be possible to initiate a RB type-OBE from within deep sleep, which it is not. Once in deep sleep, there is no way to go RB style OBE without going to higher brainwave levels (theta and higher). This fact does seem to point into the direction of my ideas.

Were did RB state it is possible to induce a OBE during deep sleep? I wouldn't be surprised if your viewpoint is true, but don't see the relevance for our argument whether we can leave our body our not. You yourself say:
"we are in normal sleep, we initiate RB type-OBE and thus a copy consciousness is released, and our original copy goes to deep sleep, thus proving that RB type-OBE during deep sleep is possible. Perhaps this is true"
Thats all I'm saying.

OBE's hard to achieve cause they need deep trance

You dismiss my entire argument in that section by saying the above. Feel free to think so, but RB type-OBE's are extremely easy to initiate compared to NDE-OBE and astral wandering. And yes it does take a deep trance to get there, but getting into a deep trance is not so hard since we all do that each night when we sleep. Sleep and (lucid)dreams, from which a lot of RB type OBE's are initiated by many people including those on this forum.

Well what I meant is that OBE's (from "waking" via vibrations are harder to achieve then LD's during night) which is true for the majority of people.

."..the Body is dead, which in RB view it means that the dream mind is gone and that alot of subtle energy is transfered from the physical body to the Astral body which gives him a lot more stability."

Looks to me as though he says here that his OBE's are initiated by the dream mind (thus the OBE's are dreams) and that at death indeed the whole spirit (all the subtle energy) leaves the body. I would agree with this.

No not exactly. The dream mind is gone therefore it no longer affects the OBe-mind, which it usually does, when active, meaning that the memory's of the copies get mixed up, which sounds a bit odd to me as well, I must say.By the way I realized that catmeow basically shares my viewpoint so maybe He/She can explain better.
The dream-mind and the Obe-mind are however two separate things the OBe-mind is not sustained by the dream mind (In RB-view as I understand it). At death  a lot of subtle energy transfers to the Astralbody, giving him a lot of stability and clarity. However this can also be done while still alive if one trains this.

First of all in our dreams a lot of unexpected stuff happens all the time, but it depends of course also on what you would call "unexpected". I for one would certainly say that some things that happen in my dreams are quite unexpected by me. Also, we dream about many things during our lives. What if we would ever unexpectedly dream of seeing ourselves in our bed? This would be a shock to anyone, and could probably explain why it would happen again to these persons. Given the huge amount of people on earth and the huge amount of stuff they dream of, it would not be impossible that these natural "OBE's" occur randomly once in a while by accident.

This is possible but I don't think it is true.

IMHO Lucid Dreams are Astral Projections.

The only difference is in the perception - if you think that you're in the astral - then you most probably are in the astral.
Thought = Reality  

Another interesting thread:how to go realtime?

What does you make to believe that? I mean, it is very well possible that the two are the same thing, but just to say it is so, is a bit easy I think. So could you please explain your viewpoint? After all it is certainly not a matter of course since there are quite some experienced Projectors like Robert Bruce as well as others who seem to be sure it is not the same thing!

Cheers Tom

[Edit]

Since when is a simulation more extensive then the thing simulated?

Quite often, actually.

Postmodernist philosophers have labelled this phenomenon "hyperreality." Some philosophers, like Jean Baudrillard, go so far as to claim that our original reality is gone and has been replaced with the hyperreality of modern commercialism, where everything has a sign-exchange value to something that isn't real.

Some examples of hyperreality from Wikipedia:

• a sports drink of a flavour that doesn't exist ("wild ice zest berry")
• a plastic Christmas tree that looks better than a real Christmas tree ever could
• a magazine photo of a model that has been touched up with a computer
• almost all video games
• a well manicured garden (nature as hyperreal)
• Disney World and Las Vegas
• pornography ("sexier than sex itself")
• The stock market

All that's left, according to Baudrillard, are simulations and simulacra. Actually, this was the book that Neo used to store his data disks in the opening scene of The Matrix. (That was the joke -> it was a book being used to simulate a container for data. In doing so it was no longer a real book that contained data on its pages, but a hyperreal book that housed more varieties of data on optical disks.)

Edit: I'm convinced AP et al has something to do with humanity's tendency towards hyperreality. Lucid Dreamers often comment that their dreams are "more real than real," regardless of whether they believe it's the product of their imagination. I don't know quite how to describe this relationship, however - other than lucid dreaming can be skillfully used to simulate something you want to do in real life (giving a speech, etc.).

Interestingly, however, there is a group of posthumanists who believe that technological advancement is heading towards a "singularity," where artificial intelligence achieves our level of sentience and becomes, as Badrilliard would say, hyperreal human. We ourselves would also become hyperreal as our brains and biological systems are augmented with nanotechnology. Aided with nanotech, we would be able to communicate wirelessly in a virtual reality. The way these posthumanists describe virtual reality, you'd think they were talking about the astral plane. Ray Kurzweil seems to gather the most press about this prediction and has a very extensive website kurzweilai.net, along with a few books. My username in the forums over there is "Cyprian."

More Edit: If you want to get really gee-whiz on simulation being more extensive than the object simulated, check this out. That's a NASA gallery of carbon nanotube models. Scroll down to where they simulate proteins and neurons. They're intended to perform better than the object they're simulating.

ok. I'll see what you mean. My claim was indeed false, I would say.
What I acually meant is that If the simulation delievers experiences Impossible in the real thing I then no longer would consider it a simulation but a new thing. I don't know if that makes sense to you.
Well Dreams beeing a least partly a Simulation of reality I would not deny but the simulation beiing done by the brain I found strange

@catmeow

"Hello tombodenmann

First of all, in your critique, could you please address myself and Xetrov separately.  In this way I can answer questions directed to me and Xetrov can answer questions directed to him."

Please call me Tom. Yes, I will reply separately

 "The following observation:

First of all you seem to agree but actually support conflicting ideas:

is utterly meaningless.  Xetrov has his opinions and I present mine independently.  To attempt to negate our opinions by combining them and then saying that we disagree with each other is meaningless."

Indeed That wasn't to smart to do, I'll stop that.


"At the same time, I would say that I have a lot of respect for Xetrov's opinions and I think he has a very valid viewpoint.  He is entitled to express his ideas without, as I see it ungracious, and frankly, rude (I don't direct this at you tombodenmann) critique.  I think his ideas are interesting and certainly worthy of attention."

If I sound rude it is cause my English is not good enough. I apologize.

"Personally, I think I have presented a consistent and valid analysis, ie that of a "sliding scale" from LD to OBE.  To me it is self-evident that when I am LD'ing I am dreaming and this is a subjective reality, shared only by myself .   On the other hand OBE is an objective (ie concensus) reality, shared by other consciousnesses.  "

No I don't understand that. Do mean you have both LD and OBE and that they are not the same thing? If you say NDE's you don't mean NDE right?

"I do not say that OBE doesn't happen.  It does.  "

So you believe that OBE can happen without NDE then?

"I just happen to believe that LD is NOT a collective reality.  In my opinion LD is a personal experience."

Have you ever heard of shared dreaming. there are actually people on this board that say they can enter other peoples dreams. It also seems to be possible to perceive real world things . For example native Americans searched for Prey during LD.


 "This is not to say it isn't a marvellous experience.  It is, I know I've had thousands.  They can be extraordinarily detailed and quite frankly, beautiful.  I had several this morning (as usual).  These were brought on by going through an "exit procedure" involving vibrations, floating (apparently out of my body) etc.  But I am pretty sure these were just personal dreams.  So to me - LD seems very similar to OBE but is really just a personal reality."

See above, it also possible that you drift into dreamworlds after exiting the body.

"I can't see why this should be such an emotive concept to some members of this board.  As I said, this is the traditional viewpoint, and has only recently been superceded by the notion that LD and OBE are one and the same thing."

Now you are aware that Xetrov believes LD =OBE are you?

"I can't speak for Xetrov, but my own opinion is that our entire world is clearly a "mental construct".  This probably applies to all lower states of being - eg physical waking consiousnes (PWC), LD and OBE.  Our subconscious minds actually construct a representation of the world, and our conscious minds then experience this construct.  This construct is based on the information we gather from our senses.  During PWC we use the physical senses.  During OBE we use astral senses.  During LD there is not much sensory input and the experience is largely fantasy (IMHO).  But basically the world we experience is a mental construct."

I agree



I would like your inability to see 3D while out of body. As from all I read I would conclude that it is very well possible for you to see 3D when out of body but as long as you believe you can't and search for a way to do it it won't happen. This is just my theorie though, maybe I'm completely wrong.
How do you manage to get all this LD anyway?

Cheers Tom

@Xetrov

Don't you work o.k. I'm a student too (Physics), so I'll take some time to reply.
First of all, I do not wanna sound rude! If I do it is cause my English isn't good enough and cause I'll try to come straight to the point.


"Sorry if that looked so, this is because when i replied to you (the piece you quoted) i meant RB-type of OBE, which is the same as LD to me (and mr catmeow). Catmeow however, in the quote you gave of him, speaks of the 'real' OBE (which i prefer to call NDE-OBE). So you see, we actually agree but because of the different terms and definitions we are using it becomes all a bit confusing. However i knew exactly what Catmeow meant in his last post and i can tell you it is the same as i see it."

O.k. I'll consider you two to agree then.

"First of all I showed you a study that shows most blind people (in that study, 15 out of 23 people were able to)  CAN see in NDE-OBE. This fact alone is NOT explainable by Bruce, since he claims it would not be possible. There certainly are blind people that cannot see during a NDE-OBE, but that was beside the point of the argument. However, i agree it would be interesting to check out more studies in this area and see what they can tell us. "

That is true the studies indicate some problems with RB view. However That doesn't mean that Roberts comments about OBE and LD are all wrong.  It would be very interesting to see what Robert replies to this. I would suggest you sum up some key points and post the questions direct at the Q/A- Board. Robert usually comes up with some very good explanations.


"By and large, examples of people born blind might show us that during an RB type – OBE, they cannot see. This is probably why Bruce writes the above in the first place. I am not aware of people born blind that perhaps have visual abilities in their dreams and RB-type OBE's. If such people do not exist, Bruce and me are both right since I say that these RB-type OBE's are dreams, and in dreams our mental blueprint considering the senses isn't negated  by our astral senses (i will come back to this in a moment). Bruce in his idea is also right because for him it proves his point (people born blind cannot see). But what if people born blind could see in RB-type OBE? This would disprove Bruce's theory in the first place. For me it would be new information too, and i should think carefully to incorporate this in my view on these things. (On)fortunately there are no researches that i  know of  that show us any people born blind can see in their dreams or RB-type OBE's."

I really wonder if there are born blinds that can see in dreams, that would be quite important. After all there still would be a possible explanation if they can't. This could be that as long as the physical Body is alive the Experiences in the Astral are somehow limited but once it is dead that limitation is gone. Robert has some good explanations on that as well but I can't exactly remember.
For some more interesting imputes see

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2320/is_2_64/ai_67718675

"So a partial negation of the mental construct means, that this part is being replaced by a new piece of mental construct, namely the ability to see (astrally). Upon entering NDE-OBE, a person born blind can all of a sudden see and this new vision ability is then incorporated into his or her mental construction, thereby negating the previous construction of being totally blind. That's what i mean. Of course not that the whole mental construction falls away (although i would not know to which degree this mental construction stays put after death, since obviously I'm not death). To make an easy comparison, if you thought that the Chinese people's skin color was pink, but you see a Chinese guy and his skin is not pink but yellowish, your old mental construction of the Chinese will have been negated. That is what i meant, not that the mental construct is gone."

I see. So what is generating the mental construct in the NDE's then? the Brain is out of the game. So I would then consider possibility that the same thing that generates the mental construct in the NDE's also generates the mental construct in waking life. Which I believe is not the brain but the mind itself.



"I do not assume anything about anyone, at least no less then any of you people do."
There are so many examples of RB-style OBE's other people have had, but which you have never experienced yourself (perhaps this includes your following comment: "people claim to have OBE's that are not very prone to thoughts.") Still you assume they are truthful."

Yeah but I wrote "claim" to indicate that.

".Your reaction also shows that you might think that i think these RB style-OBE's to be of less value or in some other way demeaning, but that is not the case. I am just arguing that it is not what it looks."

Yeah but it feels demeaning cause it would mean that they are generated by our brain which would limit their scope somehow. It would mean that we should strive for the real Astral and all our efforts so far were "in vain"
At least it kind of fells so and that's one of the mean reasons people don't like your ideas, to me they just don't feel right, but this is of course no argument (or is it?)

"Do you think it is coincidence that when people's visual center in the brain is active, during RB-type OBE, they can influence the astral by thought? Like, just as in dreams, which are the same or very close, not  only to me but also to RB? Do you say that, it is coincidence that when you go to deep sleep and beyond where this visual center is not active (if you want proof ill search it for you), this is no longer possible?"

That would actually mean that OBE's are indeed Dreams and that Dreams are indeed produced by the brain (and spirit). But is that really so? I would need to know the exact experiments that have been done the results and the numbers of people involved to draw such conclusions, So please could you give me the link.


"Go and try this experiment: In your next LD or RB style-OBE, go and meditate. Try to sink deeper into yourself, into deep sleep. Try to wake yourself up quickly, if that doesn't work, and there are also NO visuals whatsoever, then you know you are in deep sleep stage. Now when you are here, induce your kind of RB type-OBE, and tell me what happens. I have tried this as well (as have several people I closely know, some even while monitoring brain waves so they were 100% sure in deep sleep) and i can tell you, no OBE whatsoever can take place here. Would it be coincidence that the visual brain center is not active here? To me, not, yet I agree it doesn't prove anything beyond doubt, it just shows in which way we should seek the answers."

Yes in RB view it should in fact be possible to have OBE's  in deep sleep if that is not the case your viewpoint seems more logical, but remember. In RB's viewpoint  LD and OBE are not the same, there are multiple copies of conscious possible, there is a dream mind and a copie of conscious having the OBE, So he probably would say that your experiments are done with your dream mind which can not operate in deep sleep but that OBE's are possible in deep sleep. Now one would need to do alot of experiments with brain wave monitoring and people that say they can differentiate between OBE and LD to see which viewpoint is true.

"Besides this, I also strongly believe indeed that inducing a 'real' NDE-OBE from beyond deep sleep is possible, although i have not yet experienced this yet (i am working on it though). But the fact that REM sleep is so completely different from deep sleep and certainly from stages even deeper shows that there must be differences between RB type OBE's and NDE-OBE's. Also take note that reaching this level to get into NDE is very hard and might take years to learn. I can further underscore this by taking Clark into my argument (some nice articles i lately read, his comments on Bardon's work). His ideas are very similar to mine and his astral wandering is what i call NDE-OBE. If you read carefully you will see that free astral wandering can only be reached after many years of intensive training. Yet the RB type OBE can be done by almost anyone, in any case many people do not even need to practice it at all. This is logical since to go lucid beyond deep sleep (or like Bardon, in very deep trance), takes ages of practicing, unlike RB type OBE's.

See above, RB says LD and OBE are not the same LD are easys and OBE's hard to achieve cause they need deep trance

"Lastly your point about expectation and NDE experiences which you claim can not point us in a direction of an astral dimension that would be solid. 1st of all there are a lot of striking similarities between NDE's all over the world, not depending on what religion anyone has. These experiences are all different from an average RB type of OBE. This in itself shows us only that we might be on to something which is actually not the same at all!"

Well there certainly isn't! the Body is dead, which in RB view (well probably I should say as I understand it since I'm not RB and I don't want to misrepresent him here) it means that the dream mind is gone and that alot of subtle energy is transfered from the physical body to the Astral body which gives him a lot more stability.

"So well  now on to the astral, when people die. I cannot really tell you what all the stuff is what is going on there, but people frequently report at NDE that they are welcomed by all kinds of astral beings, be it their lost families or friends, etc. Who says that any of the astral beings can't take the shape of Jesus? This might sound hilarious, but before you laugh at this, let me make my argument here. I meant to say, the astral is not prone to the CURRENT thoughts of the person experiencing NDE."


As far as i know people in NDE have never been able to THINK jesus away, or to change his appearance, etc. So although the astral might in some sense confirm to the mental image someone has of it, it is not prone to change by thought whenever this person experiences NDE, which is what the argument was about. Namely, to show that during an RB type OBE you can shape  the world mostly as you wish (depending on skills though), and during an NDE you cant.

O.k. good point which actually makes me think something completely different, sorry for changing subject but: What thinks anyway?! I always thought that the brain thinks and that one can measure this with brain waves now if people with no brain activity can think.........well I'm confused. What does the brain do anyway? it is not needed for mental constructs it is not needed for thoughts hmmmm is it only needed to transfer info's from the physical to the mind and vica versa?

"Its indeed easy to say but that doesn't mean its not true. I'm not sure why you would give these examples anyway? To show that a mental construct doesn't exist? I can give you some idea however in what direction you should seek the answer. During sleep and dreams you are in a closer connection to your subconscious self, which allows you to give significance to dreams in the first place. Creativity is extremely increased for example, many people including myself have reported being able to make the most wonderful music in their (lucid)dreams. Would it be so hard to imagine that your dreams can take form according to a mental model you have of how it should approximately feel to be a flower, or to be multiple persons?2

No is not but it is somehow strange for me to assume that the brain can do all this, the mind yes but the brain?

"Also i have never said that in a dream you cannot experience things alien to your mental model. First of all your subconscious can bring on such experiences, second of all contact or a connection with others (astral beings perhaps) can bring you sensations like  unconditional love.

Well so far my thoughts on your critique on my thoughts, have a nice day anyone who dared to read this far, and to the rest of you also ... "

are you always this polite
Just one last thought. People knowing nothing about OBE's and dreaming for years , suddenly report that they wake up floating above their bodys which lay in the bed. they get very scared and don not understand this at all, never the less it happens from time to time (I know alot of this people) No if We assume that OBe's are Dreams , we would this experiences all be so alike why should the brain suddenly simulate this which is really not like a dream were events happen usually like you expect them to happen (in a way, you are afraid and voila there is the monster...) but this experiences are completely against their expectations and alike, why does this happen i wonder.

Cheers Tom

PS your viewpoint is after all very good and I respect it.

Don't you work o.k. I'm a student too (Physics), so I'll take some time to reply.
First of all, I do not wanna sound rude! If I do it is cause my English isn't good enough and cause I'll try to come straight to the point.


"Sorry if that looked so, this is because when i replied to you (the piece you quoted) i meant RB-type of OBE, which is the same as LD to me (and mr catmeow). Catmeow however, in the quote you gave of him, speaks of the 'real' OBE (which i prefer to call NDE-OBE). So you see, we actually agree but because of the different terms and definitions we are using it becomes all a bit confusing. However i knew exactly what Catmeow meant in his last post and i can tell you it is the same as i see it."

O.k. I'll consider you two to agree then.

"First of all I showed you a study that shows most blind people (in that study, 15 out of 23 people were able to)  CAN see in NDE-OBE. This fact alone is NOT explainable by Bruce, since he claims it would not be possible. There certainly are blind people that cannot see during a NDE-OBE, but that was beside the point of the argument. However, i agree it would be interesting to check out more studies in this area and see what they can tell us. "

That is true the studies indicate some problems with RB view. However That doesn't mean that Roberts comments about OBE and LD are all wrong.  It would be very interesting to see what Robert replies to this. I would suggest you sum up some key points and post the questions direct at the Q/A- Board. Robert usually comes up with some very good explanations.


"By and large, examples of people born blind might show us that during an RB type – OBE, they cannot see. This is probably why Bruce writes the above in the first place. I am not aware of people born blind that perhaps have visual abilities in their dreams and RB-type OBE's. If such people do not exist, Bruce and me are both right since I say that these RB-type OBE's are dreams, and in dreams our mental blueprint considering the senses isn't negated  by our astral senses (i will come back to this in a moment). Bruce in his idea is also right because for him it proves his point (people born blind cannot see). But what if people born blind could see in RB-type OBE? This would disprove Bruce's theory in the first place. For me it would be new information too, and i should think carefully to incorporate this in my view on these things. (On)fortunately there are no researches that i  know of  that show us any people born blind can see in their dreams or RB-type OBE's."

I really wonder if there are born blinds that can see in dreams, that would be quite important. After all there still would be a possible explanation if they can't. This could be that as long as the physical Body is alive the Experiences in the Astral are somehow limited but once it is dead that limitation is gone. Robert has some good explanations on that as well but I can't exactly remember.
For some more interesting imputes see

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2320/is_2_64/ai_67718675

"So a partial negation of the mental construct means, that this part is being replaced by a new piece of mental construct, namely the ability to see (astrally). Upon entering NDE-OBE, a person born blind can all of a sudden see and this new vision ability is then incorporated into his or her mental construction, thereby negating the previous construction of being totally blind. That's what i mean. Of course not that the whole mental construction falls away (although i would not know to which degree this mental construction stays put after death, since obviously I'm not death). To make an easy comparison, if you thought that the Chinese people's skin color was pink, but you see a Chinese guy and his skin is not pink but yellowish, your old mental construction of the Chinese will have been negated. That is what i meant, not that the mental construct is gone."

I see. So what is generating the mental construct in the NDE's then? the Brain is out of the game. So I would then consider possibility that the same thing that generates the mental construct in the NDE's also generates the mental construct in waking life. Which I believe is not the brain but the mind itself.



"I do not assume anything about anyone, at least no less then any of you people do."
There are so many examples of RB-style OBE's other people have had, but which you have never experienced yourself (perhaps this includes your following comment: "people claim to have OBE's that are not very prone to thoughts.") Still you assume they are truthful."

Yeah but I wrote "claim" to indicate that.

".Your reaction also shows that you might think that i think these RB style-OBE's to be of less value or in some other way demeaning, but that is not the case. I am just arguing that it is not what it looks."

Yeah but it feels demeaning cause it would mean that they are generated by our brain which would limit their scope somehow. It would mean that we should strive for the real Astral and all our efforts so far were "in vain"
At least it kind of fells so and that's one of the mean reasons people don't like your ideas, to me they just don't feel right, but this is of course no argument (or is it?)

"Do you think it is coincidence that when people's visual center in the brain is active, during RB-type OBE, they can influence the astral by thought? Like, just as in dreams, which are the same or very close, not  only to me but also to RB? Do you say that, it is coincidence that when you go to deep sleep and beyond where this visual center is not active (if you want proof ill search it for you), this is no longer possible?"

That would actually mean that OBE's are indeed Dreams and that Dreams are indeed produced by the brain (and spirit). But is that really so? I would need to know the exact experiments that have been done the results and the numbers of people involved to draw such conclusions, So please could you give me the link.


"Go and try this experiment: In your next LD or RB style-OBE, go and meditate. Try to sink deeper into yourself, into deep sleep. Try to wake yourself up quickly, if that doesn't work, and there are also NO visuals whatsoever, then you know you are in deep sleep stage. Now when you are here, induce your kind of RB type-OBE, and tell me what happens. I have tried this as well (as have several people I closely know, some even while monitoring brain waves so they were 100% sure in deep sleep) and i can tell you, no OBE whatsoever can take place here. Would it be coincidence that the visual brain center is not active here? To me, not, yet I agree it doesn't prove anything beyond doubt, it just shows in which way we should seek the answers."

Yes in RB view it should in fact be possible to have OBE's  in deep sleep if that is not the case your viewpoint seems more logical, but remember. In RB's viewpoint  LD and OBE are not the same, there are multiple copies of conscious possible, there is a dream mind and a copie of conscious having the OBE, So he probably would say that your experiments are done with your dream mind which can not operate in deep sleep but that OBE's are possible in deep sleep. Now one would need to do alot of experiments with brain wave monitoring and people that say they can differentiate between OBE and LD to see which viewpoint is true.

"Besides this, I also strongly believe indeed that inducing a 'real' NDE-OBE from beyond deep sleep is possible, although i have not yet experienced this yet (i am working on it though). But the fact that REM sleep is so completely different from deep sleep and certainly from stages even deeper shows that there must be differences between RB type OBE's and NDE-OBE's. Also take note that reaching this level to get into NDE is very hard and might take years to learn. I can further underscore this by taking Clark into my argument (some nice articles i lately read, his comments on Bardon's work). His ideas are very similar to mine and his astral wandering is what i call NDE-OBE. If you read carefully you will see that free astral wandering can only be reached after many years of intensive training. Yet the RB type OBE can be done by almost anyone, in any case many people do not even need to practice it at all. This is logical since to go lucid beyond deep sleep (or like Bardon, in very deep trance), takes ages of practicing, unlike RB type OBE's.

See above, RB says LD and OBE are not the same LD are easys and OBE's hard to achieve cause they need deep trance

"Lastly your point about expectation and NDE experiences which you claim can not point us in a direction of an astral dimension that would be solid. 1st of all there are a lot of striking similarities between NDE's all over the world, not depending on what religion anyone has. These experiences are all different from an average RB type of OBE. This in itself shows us only that we might be on to something which is actually not the same at all!"

Well there certainly isn't! the Body is dead, which in RB view (well probably I should say as I understand it since I'm not RB and I don't want to misrepresent him here) it means that the dream mind is gone and that alot of subtle energy is transfered from the physical body to the Astral body which gives him a lot more stability.

"So well  now on to the astral, when people die. I cannot really tell you what all the stuff is what is going on there, but people frequently report at NDE that they are welcomed by all kinds of astral beings, be it their lost families or friends, etc. Who says that any of the astral beings can't take the shape of Jesus? This might sound hilarious, but before you laugh at this, let me make my argument here. I meant to say, the astral is not prone to the CURRENT thoughts of the person experiencing NDE."


As far as i know people in NDE have never been able to THINK jesus away, or to change his appearance, etc. So although the astral might in some sense confirm to the mental image someone has of it, it is not prone to change by thought whenever this person experiences NDE, which is what the argument was about. Namely, to show that during an RB type OBE you can shape  the world mostly as you wish (depending on skills though), and during an NDE you cant.

O.k. good point which actually makes me think something completely different, sorry for changing subject but: What thinks anyway?! I always thought that the brain thinks and that one can measure this with brain waves now if people with no brain activity can think.........well I'm confused. What does the brain do anyway? it is not needs for mental constructs it is not needed for thoughts hmmmm is it only needed to transfer info's from the physical to the mind in vica versa?

"Its indeed easy to say but that doesn't mean its not true. I'm not sure why you would give these examples anyway? To show that a mental construct doesn't exist? I can give you some idea however in what direction you should seek the answer. During sleep and dreams you are in a closer connection to your subconscious self, which allows you to give significance to dreams in the first place. Creativity is extremely increased for example, many people including myself have reported being able to make the most wonderful music in their (lucid)dreams. Would it be so hard to imagine that your dreams can take form according to a mental model you have of how it should approximately feel to be a flower, or to be multiple persons?2

No is not but it is somehow strange for me to assume that the brain can do all this, the mind yes but the brain?

"Also i have never said that in a dream you cannot experience things alien to your mental model. First of all your subconscious can bring on such experiences, second of all contact or a connection with others (astral beings perhaps) can bring you sensations like  unconditional love.

Well so far my thoughts on your critique on my thoughts, have a nice day anyone who dared to read this far, and to the rest of you also ... "

are you always this polite
Just one last thought. People knowing nothing about OBE's and dreaming for years , suddenly report that they wake up floating above their bodys which lay in the bed. they get very scared and don not understand this at all, never the less it happens from time to time (I know alot of this people) No if We assume that OBe's are Dreams , we would this experiences all be so alike why should the brain suddenly simulate this which is really not like a dream were events happen usually like you expect them to happen (in a way, you are afraid and voila there is the monster...) but this experiences are completely against their expectations and alike, why does this happen i wonder.

Cheers Tom

PS your viewpoint is after all very good and I respect it.