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Many report vision problems ranging from darkness to muddled unclear vision. Of those who can see, a large percentage report tunnel vision. This would be more typical.

Although some individuals may mock up a field of view that mimics the physical vision I would say that not only is this unusual but it is unnatural for the 'astral' realm experience.

If OBE vision were typically like physical waking vision why would there be so much discussion on how to improve vision and clarity, "Clarity Now!" and so on?


Some excerpts to show what I mean;

...  the first few seconds I am always blind, as my physical eyes are closed and the  ...
...  that I learned. I started to rub my eyes together in front of my face, and as I  ...
...  so my vision became clearer. I yelled out the  ...
... ), when I did this I got a MUCH clearer vision of my room, although not as clear and  ...
...  command...however I could not make the vision more vivid after a certain point. I  ...
...  to slowly float up and over my bed. My vision was fixed straight upwards, and I felt  ...
...  black cloudy stuff entering my field of vision from the left side (meaning it would've  ...
... , and I felt like I was starting to lose vision and control. I repeated the hand  ...

Once I was out I was partially blind. I had a kaleidoscopic or fragmented  ...
...  of being in my dark bedroom and saw the light coming from  ...
...  hallway and mentally demanded that my vision be improved. It only improved slightly  ...
...  to run towards it and plunge into the darkness in order to go somewhere else. I  ...
...  was shifting at high speed through the dark void. I was happy with the speed and  ...
...  me while I was gliding through that darkness. I started to think of several  ...

...  dream fade out. All I could see was a dark blue tint and I heard a loud buzzing  ...
...  from one eye, then I'd get a kind of tunnel vision. It ended with a party in an  ...

...  it became black. I got a kidn of tunnel vision and then it just went.
I tried  ...
...  anyhting to do with any type or auric vision or if it's just my eyes being defected  ...

.  experience... I was going through the 'tunnel' or whatever (all dark) and all of a  ...
...  the whole ordeal I do not believe I had vision... at least, everything was black black  ...

...  clarity now!" This may activate your eyesight. Or another trick is pretend you  ...
...  removing something from your eyes pretend you're using your hands as if  ...
...  put a mask over your eyes and you're trying to remove it. worked  ...
...  me two times I was blind. This is what I use and I'm assuming  ...
...  If it's the case you're still partially stuck to your body but partially out,  ...
...  to get you out. And if you're still blind apply those techniques mentioned above. ...

You'll see however you expect to see.  Initially, you'll most likely see exactly as you do right now.

Not quite.

In fact... not even close
(not if the reports of 99% of the people sharing their experience is to be taken at face value)

Do you see things in a 180 degree radius or 360? Is it true or not?

I think the 360 degree viewpoint was an idea first posited by an author speaking of the 'view' from the Atmic realm which is wayyy beyond the Astral. It was given as a metaphorical representation of "perception" and not meant to be taken literally as a physical allegory.

The astral is more like tunnel vision in comparison to the Atmic perception.

From what I read on most of these AP forums it is clear that most APers are getting 45 degree vision at best.

Some Dead sea scrolls were written in 150 BCE and 70 BC which contains  
The Essene Book of Revelation so it was written way before AD.

I did a timeline thing in my reaserch and here's the list:

What is the source of your research? The dating of the Dead Sea Scrolls is controversial. It was originally believed to be about 25AD. But that would make it contemporary with a very popular religious figure and so much of the writing was eerily similar to that particular religious figure... annnnnnd it gave a narrative that differed significantly from the present mythology....

So, grasping at a few straws 'they' managed to place it back at 70BC and it stuck, along with a collective sigh of relief. (Which then introduced *another* problem... it looks like some guy whose life sounds a lot like Jesus' was walking around shortly before Jesus was born... !... holy guacamole... what a mess....)

As far as I know NONE of those other so called "Essene" books have any basis at all in historical or archeological fact. Yes those books were written but assigning authorship to the Essenes is dubious. Some have guessed that maybe some Essenes wrote some things but there is no firm data on which to base those claims with a high degree of confidence.

I have not followed this closely in the last ten or fifteen years so if new data has come to light I would be happy to review it.


Edit; this subject interests me so I looked into it a bit further. It appears that much of these so called "Essene Books" are modern fabrications. Those books don't exist.

Author Keith Akers[5]  says the health concepts such as raw foods and colonic enemas in Szekely's claimed translation reflect vegetarian and naturopathic fads of the early twentieth century rather than historical practices.

When University of Lund theologian Per Beskow investigated Szekely's claims in Strange Tales About Jesus, both the Vatican and the National Library of Vienna denied that the original manuscripts existed. The Vatican also denied that Szekely had ever been admitted to the Vatican Archives in 1923. The third claimed manuscript source was the library at Monte Cassino, which was destroyed during World War II.[6]


"colonic enemas" ... heh.

  yeah, right.

what about tarot cards

:NoY:

  I was thinking the same thing!  Maybe just the Major Arcana, pull one at random and place it on the nightstand. If you actually remember to look at it while OBE you could then explore the symbols in that altered state.

You could shuffle the cards and then 'intend' to pull the one most helpful for you in dealing with some present dilemma... and take it from there.

I've questioned this for a while...
Negative thoughts, fears, negative emotions- worrying, etc.. when these arrive in your mind/life- are you suppose to experience them?- think about them, let them ride their course until the thought ends-

No. I don't think so.

or are you suppose to do your best to completely avoid the thought. For example, when i feel a negative thought/emotion coming on am i suppose to immediately divert my attention to somehting else?

Yes, this is what most Schools that I am familiar with teach.

or would it be best for me to let the negative emotion/thought ride out until its gone?

No, I don't think so.

what's the best technique to get rid of them from happening? Sometimes i feel like we have negative emotions/thoughts for a reason- that reason being because we're suppose to have them?

If you need to defecate or urinate there is a proper method for dealing with the problem that varies according to circumstances and local custom. Just letting it happen au naturel is usually not the best course of action.

The "best" technique would likely depend on your present situation and your 'goal'. A poorly motivated hedonist would likely choose a different technique than the aspiring Magi candidate.

let's put it this way my good friend =D
if the prophecy is real and to be taken seriouslly then why did the writers of "john" changed the stars into a constellation of 12 stars? It wasn't "his" visions and the hole Jesus thing wasn't even in the original text written by the Essene. And people are looking at the bible prophecys for signs in this reailty but how can they if the bible version is written by a fake?

Lots of Mystics have visions. If they are different, does that mean one is a "fake"? If we take it as a given that 99.99% have no clue what either vision version means... what difference does it make?

How do you know that the "original text" was 'original' or even written by the Essenes?

The Aramaic version written by John of Patmos claims it was during the reign of Nero when he had the vision and wrote the account. That would place it before 70AD which is pretty early imo. (not that it makes a whole heckuva lotta difference to me).

"Notised how many stars were changed from 7 to 12? "

...?...  but what does that mean to you?

along these same lines... I am tempted to ask, did you know that 'dog' spelled backwards is...
oh well, nevermind. Back to my waking mantra


.


    Row, row, row your boat,
    Gently down the stream.
    Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily,
    Life is but a dream.

[exploring]

This is a really good question and I am surprised that you only got one reply.

I was almost 18 when I first started reading about the Hindu/Sufi Masters and their travels in the Inner planes. I was very much attracted to the notion of exploring the unseen realms of consciousness and the sheer adventure of it all.

Astral Projection was frowned upon by the particular Yoga School I was practicing in but after many years I wanted to try it just so I would know and understand from experience what people were talking about. In the course of my practice and studies I had more than a few spontaneous projections that I thought might have been AP events but without more direct experience I couldn't be sure.

I am learning a lot with regular AP practice and success.

Very simple question. During astral projection, does time slow down or speed up? I've feel like that there is no exact law of time for the astral. Any answers of maybe experiences?

People report both but I think the most common experience is that a one minute projection feels more like 10 minutes or longer. I think even Robert Monroe described very eventful projections that would seem to require almost an hour to complete but then he returns to his body and checks the clock to find that about 7 minutes elapsed.

That's the problem with you- you immediately made it personal.  My 'claims' (I never made any claims, I simply mentioned well-known historic incidents) were not refuted, they were denied with ad-hominems- "ignorant anti-catholic people" and when I revealed that I had an extensive catholic background, then you insulted me (and other nonpracticing catholics).

You are wrong again, CFT. Yet another unsubstantiated accusation. I made no ad hominems. Why do so many people falsely accuse me like this?... I have a theory but then I would only digress even further were I to explain. I did not make it immediately 'personal' at all. I merely made a general comment about the generic anti-Catholic bigot's standard modus operandi or a comment about the neurotic self loathing often seen in certain groups. I did NOT accuse you directly of any such thing... but if the shoe fits... you a free to wear it -- if you could find a pair of cajones to match! 

I think covert bigots lost in deep denial (and perpetrating their destructive lies behind a facade of respectable ideological pretense) are far more objectionable than open, honest bigots.

I never made a reference to "ignorant anti-catholic people" like that, CFT! Your accusation borders on an outright aggressive destructive LIE. I too was raised Catholic and educated in the Church by nuns and at the age of 18 simply stopped going to church and shortly thereafter took Initiation in an Eastern Yoga School that I practiced for nearly two decades. So... if you don't mind... get off your HIGH and ridiculously absurd "I was raised Catholic so I have the right to spew all the most putrid, stinking, destructive LIES about the Church that I dang well please" horse. !
okay?
I've heard that one before and it is pure BS.

Basically it was "if they say it it must not be true because they are so- and so".  That's not a refutation.

Ummm... basically NO it wasn't that at all. If you actually had a valid point based on fact you would present it or quote something I actually said and ask for a source or show outright how it was not so... but you did not do that because what I said was true. And what you said was FALSE. Like it or not CFT, I soundly refuted your anti-Catholic bigotry in no uncertain fashion.

(I have also noticed over the years that those lost in deep denial can not even recognize when their cherished falsehoods have been clearly refuted).

I didn't single out catholic events, I included them in instances in which religions perpetrate acts on 'others'.

You sorta did - you mentioned the completely justified  act of self defense commonly known as the Crusades and referenced it in the same breath with some whacked out connection to some completely irrelevant death contract.

Anyway, I'm leaving this conversation, not because of any 'facts' but because you have made it about something else altogether, and insulted me and a bunch of other people, making it personal.
Bye.
Sorry Ryan, for continuing, but now I'm done.

I insulted no one and did not make it personal. I pointed out blatant bigotry and falsehoods. For those who take their bigotry to heart in a personal way it may come across as a personal insult but it is really just a simple communication in objective impersonal fashion about a very DARK SIDE of modern Western society.

Those with the heart to face it honestly will not be offended.

For this commitment to Truth I make no apologies.

It seems to me that you are being very good at missing the point.  But anyway, I'll just add that  in modern times the last 'acceptable' prejudice is gay-bashing- from mostly everyone, religious or not.

I got your point just fine. My point is simply that in the course of making your point you were perpetuating bigoted lies and hate speech.

Note how you never acknowledged my refutations of your falsehoods and my clear demonstrations of just how FALSE your claims were. How hard would it be to say, "gee! thanks... I did not know that. I guess I had been completely duped by all those anti-Catholic bigots out there but now I know better".  ?

I have always found that the more bigoted people are, the more obstinately they cling to the lies, falsehoods and hate-speech that they use to give themselves permission to hate.

I think someone would have to be delusional to think, "that  in modern times the last 'acceptable' prejudice is gay-bashing- from mostly everyone, religious or not."   

One does not even have to make a bigoted comment about gays to be condemned as a bigot. Simply disagreeing with any tiny part of the gay agenda is enough to be labeled a homophobe! and attacked poste haste from all sides within minutes, if not seconds. But spew anti-Catholic bigotry all day long and almost no one will mention it.

[Nicholas, a shepherd from Germany, led a group across the Alps and into Italy in the early spring of 1212. About 7,000 arrived in Genoa in late August. However, their plans did not bear fruit when the waters failed to part as promised, and the band broke up.]

As someone who grew up in the catholic church (my father went to seminary school, and I went to catholic church from kindergarten to highschool.)- so if I learned something about the catholic religion I did it from the catholic church.

This is an old line of baloney that I get from ignorant Catholics all the time. Neurotic, self-loathing Catholics have the right to wallow in self hatred all they want but publicly spreading destructive hate mongering, lies about Church history is NOT okay, in my book. You may have learned that the Crusades happened but it appears you have forgotten why. "Cultural expansion"  !! hahahahahahahahah!! what a joke! The Muslim expansion was violent WARFARE bent on military CONQUEST and an attempt at world domination. (Amazing just how DEEP the denial can run).

You are nitpicking about the catholic church and acting as if I were attacking it.

Refuting a giant, bald faced, bigoted LIE is not a nitpik. And spreading hate-speech *is* an attack on the Church.

I am talking about religion in general- about what happens when religion has the power to dictate laws, as it happens in islamic nations nowadays.
I could have easily added reformation persecution to the mix- the persecution of catholics by the newly-started protestant church- the existence of the Malleus Maleficarus, and other fun things- but I didn't because I didn't realize everyone had to be included before some devout person would spring up to defend the religion of their choice, because that is almost besides the point.

Again, you are wrong. I am not devout by any means and I am not defending the religion of my choice (I chose to leave my childhood religion decades ago when I turned 18). I am pointing out giant bald faced lies, hatespeech, bigotry and neurotic, self loathing pathology.

The fact is that the crusades began as 'self defense' against cultural invasion- what is known as bigotry nowadays- and it went from self defense to religious war and killing people for the hell of it

No. It was a counter-attack against a full on Muslim military invasion of Europe. Read your history again.

- to the point of horrible things like the Children's Crusades.  Are you going to tell me this was not blasphemous in and of itself?

Not only was it NOT blasphemous, most of what you think you know about it probably never happened;

According to more recent research there seem to have actually been two movements of people (of all ages) in 1212 in Germany and France.[1][2] The similarities of the two allowed later chroniclers to combine and embellish the tales.

In the first movement, Nicholas, a shepherd from Germany, led a group across the Alps and into Italy in the early spring of 1212. About 7,000 arrived in Genoa in late August. However, their plans did not bear fruit when the waters failed to part as promised, and the band broke up. Some left for home, others may have gone to Rome, and some may have travelled along the coast to Marseilles, where they were probably sold into slavery. Few returned home and none reached the Holy Land.

The second movement was led by a 14 year old French shepherd boy named Stephan of Cloyes, who claimed in June that he bore a letter for the king of France from Jesus. Attracting a crowd of over 30,000 he went to Saint-Denis, where he was seen to work miracles. On the orders of Philip II, on the advice of the University of Paris, the crowd was sent home, and most of them went. None of the contemporary sources mention plans to go to Jerusalem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children%27s_Crusade



I have long suspected something odd about the blatant and rampant anti-Catholic bigotry in the world today. Then I saw a good book that offers some astute observations on the phenomenon;

The New Anti-Catholicism: The Last Acceptable Prejudice  written by Philip Jenkins

Anyway, you are misdirecting this thread, pushing ideological points that are not adding to this,

I was not trying to *add* or pile on to the long running hate fest that I saw emerging -- I merely tried to subtract a common lie and set the record straight.

If the moderator wants to move this to the religion area, I would be fine with that.

[Bigotry]

The Albigensians in the Cathar regions HATED Catholics and started that war. It should be called the Albigensian Crusade against Catholics! (only once war started it did not go well for the Cathars). The Roman Church was in many years-long and continual peaceful negotiations with the Cathar nobles over how to stop the murder of Catholic priests and burning of Roman Catholic churches in that region. The murder of the RC Papal Legate in Languedoc in broad daylight was an open act of war and the last straw that broke Rome's patience.

The reason the Spanish Inquisition is called the "Spanish" Inquisition is because, Yes! CFT, it was started by Isabella, Queen of Spain, AGAINST Rome's expressed wishes and direction. You didn't know that? She had sent multiple requests to Rome requesting a ROMAN Inquisition but it was refused, multiple times. After a few years Rome did send a delegation to rein in a certain Dominican named Torquemada. Word reached Rome that he over-zealously served his queen in her plans to solidify the Conquest of Spain by expelling the Jews who did not lift a finger to help her expel the Moors. (That was not an uncommon response to matters of that nature in those days. Actually, it was quite generous and tolerant when compared to other Conquerors in history... look at Genghis Khan, for example).

For those who can set their Bigotry aside, history takes on a whole new look!



Oh... and you didn't really reply to my facts about the Crusades. So, what do you think about the Crusades now? Is self defense okay with you?

Edit; seriously -- a HUGE pack of lies has been spread about Church history for so long that complete lies are now taught as actual historical fact in schools.
The Knights Templar were not destroyed by the Pope as that idiot Mr. D Brown said. It was scattered and destroyed by King Phillipe Le Bel of France. Rome vigorously opposed the action and tried to reverse what the King had done but Phillipe won out in the end. He even advanced his armies on Rome three times to drive home his point. The Pope reluctantly dissolved the order about 5 years later after its demise was already a de facto fait accompli.

Also, The Inquisition NEVER threw Galileo in jail and certainly never tortured him. The Inquisiton action with Galileo was REQUESTED by Galileo through his good friend, the Pope! (they were old drinking pals way back when).

And when you have religious groups condemning practices others have or believe in, well, we know what happens next.
Crusades or death Fatwas..... based on interpretation.

!? The two actions are not even the least bit comparable!

Fatwas are a mafia/cosa nostra type contract to have someone murdered.

The Crusades were a plain and simple act of self defense. Many recent attempts by objective historians have made this fact clear. Yet, for some reason the Crusades are continually misrepresented by anti-Catholic bigots as a war started to kill pagans. The reality is that it was a simple counter attack against marauding, conquering Muslim armies sweeping across not just Africa and southern Asia but also into Spain and Eastern Europe, Sicily, Italy, France, etc.

The Crusades were a brilliant counter attack that stopped violent Muslim expansion dead in its tracks.

I've never understood in all my research of AP, what it is exactly that people see when AP'ing.

I am not sure what sort of research you have done but I would say that what people "see" varies widely from person to person.

Does it seem like a normal waking state? Can you see the same colors/objects, etc, as if you are awake? Or is it more of a dark/shadowy type of thing - outlines/shadows etc.

For me it doesn't. I know I am not in a "normal" waking state when I go OBE. Sometimes you can see the same colors/objects, etc, as if you are awake and apparently many do most of the time... but my early OBE's were very unusual in these aspects and I only started having some of these more common elements in my journeys when I consciously used "intent" to explore the types of experiences that I was reading from other projectors.

Is it like a conscious dream (I know this refers to Lucid Dreaming, but I know that AP is different)? I mean do you see things like you would in a dream? Humans, textures, colors, landscapes, etc.

Sometimes. If I am having frequent OBEs they begin to take on dream-like characteristics. If I have only one or two OBEs per month the first projection is strong and more Astrally or Causally-ish in nature. If I project multiple times in a row the second will be similar but shorter. The 3rd and 4th projections start to get darker and weaker. The 5th or 6th will be very dreamlike and usually degrades into a long and very engaging Lucid Dream and then I just wake up normally rather than consciously return to the body.

How do you stop reincarnation, is it possible to do it within one lifetime? I would like to think that it is.

I might even bet you a nickel that it is not possible to stop "reincarnation". Sure, maybe someone could... someday... but I doubt it.

But for the Individual I think it might very well be possible to stop 'reincarnating'.

Maybe even within one Lifetime. In fact, for a few it is probably the case. Though, for most of us it will more likely be a matter of choosing our best course and struggling to do extraordinarily well in this lifetime and with the consciousness gained therefrom enter the Bardo regions in full consciousness with strength and power and Full Awareness and then, choose consciously a subsequent Lifetime whereby a propitious Life might be lived and a True Teacher might be encountered and Liberation from the Wheel might be attained.

As for what to do with the present situation?...

Play the hand yer dealt partner...play it well... to the very best of yer ability... maybe you'll get lucky.

At the very least, give this one lifetime here and now, your very best shot. Enter the Bardo with some small measure of Consciousness and with the blessed power conferred upon those who do so, choose well for your next go 'round.

If nothing else... at least try to stop being an idiot. (Most do not bother. You can set yourself apart with this one small effort)

*sigh*

Ruddy... one day you're gonna learn to NOT be a prick during a conversation.
You might find that people are a bit more open and nice to you. 

You've got a massive attitude problem, my friend.

My participation in this is over.

Just more projection, Ryan. I am not the one being a "brick" here, pal. I am not the one being rude and crude. I am being straightforward and honest. Unlike you.

I think the latitude of my attitude is far more ethereal than yours.

Honest decent, traditional types are more open and nice to me. Deceptive, dishonest, leftist down n dirty, tyrannical, so n so's however, do not like me very much.

I have gotten used to that.



Have a nice day.

I put it in quotes cause I wanted to differentiate "physical conflict" from just "conflict". 
Since we're talking about "fighting" and "struggling" here... I'm assuming we're talking about it on the level of physicality.  If I'm wrong, then that might be the source of my confusion of your stance.

But for the time being, yes, I don't understand your position in the slightest.

Conflict isn't something that grows out of spiritual growth... you *never* have to be in conflict with anything.
But meh...

There you go again...

"Conflict isn't something that grows out of spiritual growth"...

I did NOT say that it did. Why do you comment on things no one is saying and reply to points that no one has made?

Were you born with this special talent to warp and twist the words of another ?  or did that require a little special training? 




(edit: wait... I think I may see the confusion here. Spiritual Growth in this physical realm may be the result of the 'conflict' that is built-in to 'the system' when right effort is made... but Spiritual Growth itself does not necessarily create conflict. In fact it can and often does defuse what might seem to be inevitable conflict.)

"I do think that dream recall techniques will actually help you to remember more from your astral journeys as well.  "

Yes, I also think that for the average beginner, this is true.


(all "proof" aside... given that we are speaking about human psychology here... and "proof" is exceedingly difficult to come by in that particular arena).

[I also think it would be helpful if more folks understood the difference between "proof", "evidence", and "data"]

Ok, so you call it a struggle.  What are you struggling against and why?  What do you believe comes out of the struggle?  Do you grow spiritually through it?

So am I reading it right that you seem to have a connection between "physical conflict" and "spiritual growth"?
You're gonna have to help me, Ruddy, cause I don understand what that has to do with the question.  >_>

Those who are making progress must struggle through that which is naturally rising up to oppose progress.

Yes, Spiritual Growth results from well chosen goals and right effort in dealing with the obstacles that naturally rise up in response.

So Ryan, why did you put "physical conflict" in quotes with respect to what I just said? (that phrasing does not occur in the words of mine that you quoted. I did NOT say "physical conflict". 
My BS meter pegs out when I see people try to pull this semantic trick. So of course you don't understand what that has to do with the question... because it has nothing to do with what I actually said.


I suspect you do not understand the obvious relevance of my last paragraph there because it is in conflict (  ) with an a priori assumption that is simply not true.

Obstacles and conflict are built-in to this Universe at the most basic level. Yet that does not prevent the deep-denial community from trying to pretend otherwise.

I simply don't understand the need to "fight" in the non-physical...

What exactly do you think you're doing?  "HURTING" something?

For the people who enjoy "fighting" in the non-physical... let me ask you something: What is your goal for "fighting"?

Yes, it is clear that you do not understand.

It is not necessarily a "fight" so much as it is a struggle. It certainly has nothing to do with "hurting" anything. (The fact that this is what you project onto the scenario might be worth a little future introspection).

Non-physical, for most projectors is not non-duality.

Anyone with an ambitious goal will inevitably encounter resistance and conflict will arise naturally for those moving forward and making progress.

Those wasting their lives satisfied with the status quo and lacking the motivation to improve their condition may never come to understand this. Many fall into this condition as soon as a resting point in life can be found. I think the Monroe description of how most Souls incarnate into planet Earth and discover that they have bitten off wayyyy more than they can chew, is truly what we see most often.

Just from my personal experience --

When I put strong effort into conscious AP yet fail to AP I get a big increase in LD experiences.

When my attempts at conscious AP are successful I get nearly a complete cessation of LD's.



probably just a stage I am working through...

Rudolph, after your last post directed to me, I figured it's pointless to continue further, but I will refer to one more thing you posted there.

Thanks for the wrap up there Stan. You are a man of manners.

You said how you didn't see any changes in people using Samael's method of dying to egos. The elimination Samael taught is based on understanding an ego in fullness and then once this is done, one should direct a petition to one's own Being to eliminate it. This version of technique, in itself, is not beneficial for progress because an ego such as fear for example, has many thousands of manifestation, and it would take a lifetime to understand it fully.

I do not think I made an evaluation about anyone else's "changes". That would be almost impossible to state with confidence. I said one honest practitioner told us that he admits that after many years of practice, he had very little in the way of improvement to show for it. He was still plagued by negative states and he could not go OBE.

I did make a general observation that I saw a veritable parade of negative states on one forum after a public site made a few minor accusations against the "master". The firestorm of negative emotion that followed was an obvious display of egos run amok and it was nearly universal. It was openly and plainly visible to all that even many years of practicing the "Three Keys" of The Death of the Egos, Sexual Alchemy, and Service to Humanity (which actually means service to Belzebuub)  had done very little to advance the state of consciousness -- even among long time members and teachers. As I said, the anger, hurt feelings, aggressive tone and calls for revenge, etc. revealed just how little maturity and detachment the faithful had gained in five and even ten years of practice.

There were a few voices of reason that chimed in occasionally but they were quickly drowned out by the angry mob. I know that among the Surat Shabd Yoga groups there would have been a quick slap down on all that complaining early on, from the experienced Initiates and chelas.

I noticed how over time, the Samaelian groups are growing more and more closed and freedom of honest expression is suppressed. At Glorian and other sites there used to be open chatrooms for people to discuss their Work and progress, or lack of progress, etc. But these were shut down when discussions of topics that did the organization no favors were brought up. Both the Glorian and then the GM chatrooms were shut down and then even the open forums were closed down. I went to a Spanish (Osacar Uzcategui leader, I believe) chatroom and when the chat turned into a giant, angry Anti-Catholic bigotry party I began injecting facts and data that showed most of the comments were not true. The moderator was fine with it until I started correcting the record and then he quickly stepped in and kicked everyone off saying he had to reboot the server... heh... yeah right.... The anti-USA sentiment also bordered on outright hatred. So much for their ego death practice....

Whenever facts are introduced that make elements of the Doctrine appear less than perfection the moderators would quickly shut things down, lock and even delete threads. I found this to be common on both the Gnostic Movement and the Glorian sites. This is not how Sincere Seekers of Truth behave.

I brought up issues and questions that often caused a stir on these forums and I was given repeated warnings to back off. In the GM classes Senior Teachers even would simply make up a bald faced lie when it suited them in order to "control" the information flow. This is NOT how enlightened Disciples behave. In fact, it is a sure sign of something very, very wrong among the authority channels there.

There were many questions that I had that simply were not allowed as part of any discussion;

* Samael made a prediction of cataclysmic destruction around the world (primarily in the USA  ) that was supposed to hit before 1980. When that didn't happen he moved it to 1999. When that didn't happen the powers that be moved it out a few more decades... what joke. [from Rings of Alcyon -- shortly after I pointed out this discrepancy the free download for this book was removed from the server].

* I have pointed out blatant errors of historical fact in the group propaganda and provided sources to back it up but the anti-Catholic bigotry (and even anti-USA hate speech) continues unabated. A most unenlightened condition.

* Rabolu apparently abandoned his wife and small children on a little strip of dirt that he called a farm in order to pursue missionary work for Samael. This supposedly was forbidden by Samael. Men are supposed to support their families, according to Doctrine. And then Rabolu attained "mastership"...?... but ... who was his alchemy partner? How could that be? His wife was far away in another country. No one discusses these things.

* Rabolu also predicted cataclysmic destruction (also primarily in the USA  ) that did not happen. He even predicted that "Sea Monsters" on the bottom of the ocean, now surviving on atomic energy, would rise up and devour coastal cities. This was all supposed to happen ten or twenty years ago. Funny how *that* part of his writings never got translated into English. 

* After Samael's death Rabolu informed a large gathering of the faithful that a miraculously Resurrected Samael was walking around among them in his preserved Egyptian Mummy body! and he added, "Didn't you notice the man walking around here wearing a 'turban'?" only... hmmmm... Egyptians didn't wear turbans. 

* Belzebuub claimed valid descent of Master lineage through Rabolu but Rabolu had expelled/excommunicated Belzebuub for megalomania and this was hidden and kept from his followers. When documents showing this were produced some unlikely stories of how "it was just a test" were spread around.  ?! You gotta be kidding me! And the credulous faithful BOUGHT it! Swallowed it whole... pure Cult-Think. Their slavish loyalty to the Master borders on neurotic.

* Other charges were made and backed up with legal documents on public record but lame refutations were made with no documentation as support and the credulous disciples again, swallowed it whole. "Gosh, I am sure glad that has been cleared up"...  ... nothing had been cleared up! Most of the accusations of moral, ethical and sexual impropriety were not addressed at all!

Why can't people just look at the facts objectively and deal with them. Personally none of the revelations of multiple sex partners, property transfers, donation and money mishandling, and other such soap-opera details really bothered me as much as the simple, obvious, in-your-face reality that most disciples and followers were not making significant progress. The ability to Astral Project is presented as a key tool but the inability to get a conscious OBE is nearly universal. There is constant discussion of struggling with lust, and severe reactions to eating pork (  :? ). The regular discussion that goes on appears to the objective observer to be more than a little crazy.

Why not just admit the facts and say, "so what" and move on. ? Focus on results and making progress. But they do not do that because there is very little of that going on. The focus is on the Master's amazing Astral Adventures. Here, read his book. Make donations and support the Cause.

Egos also manifest at every moment, and if one doesn't eliminate them, they just feed and get stronger. Rabolu, his student who raeched mastery, said that none of Samael's students were truly eliminating egos, so he pondered over what Samael meant when he said "we need to die from moment to moment", and realized that one should actually apply elimination every time an ego surface. Then Rabolu's student Belzebuub, who also reached mastery, revolutionized this even more and combined this new version of death from moment to moment, with meditation on an ego. Usually all groups that follow Samael's teachings only do meditation on an ego, and as you may noticed on Glorian forums, people there react very negatively towards Rabolu, Belzebuub and the new version of applying the death (from moment to moment).

That is a well presented summary, Stan. Yes, the Glorian folks do react very negatively towards Rabolu, Belzebuub and the new version of applying the death (from moment to moment). In their defense I must admit they have very knowledgeable teachers but they can be quick to anger and are often overbearing. They got very upset and downright rude and abusive when I pointed out that their exalted Tibeten Monks were celibate -- i.e. they did NOT practice sexual alchemy, so how could their practice fit with Samael's teaching? They made the most ridiculous claims that they practiced sexual alchemy in 'secret'. Yeah, right....
It is all just so absurd. Since Samael lifted much of his Doctrine from Gurdjieff they must promulgate a story that Gurdjieff practiced this odd form of sexual alchemy too. But there is nothing Gurdjieff wrote to support that claim, and Gurdjieff wrote a LOT. And there are writings that outright refute such a claim. But these facts are ignored.

Ditto the Robert Monroe shore story. The Samael Doctrine states that sexual Alchemy is absolutely required to attain Mastery. So the credulous disciples must create some scenario where that must have been practiced. Even though Samael himself had so many children it seems impossible that he was copulating without orgasm, but to do so means the Master would 'Fall' so they must make excuses or the Doctrine is revealed as false.

I do not know what you mean by super secret at all.  I have not tried to hide anything at all. 

Really?
I asked you outright, directly and in a straightforward manner, Do you practice sexual Alchemy?
If so, what School or branch? and...
How long have you been practicing?

You replied ambiguously and answered none of the questions.

As far as reading the Fama and the early Alchemists, if it seems like blabber to you, then ok.  It does seem like that to many people at first.  So do many other types of writings.

I did not say it seemed like "blabber" (as a noun) to me - I used the word as a verb. Are you going to try to play word games with me?

The topic of discussion was Sex and religion.  Not bona fides.

The topic of discussion was sexual alchemy. The Subject heading is "sex and religion". No one asked you for bona fides... just personal history with the subject matter. (more childish wordplay).

Did the analogy of saving money make sense to you?  Can you see that there is a similarity between what you create mentally and the power that we use for generation?

good grief...

What was it I was saying a few weeks or months ago here?... one of the problems commonly seen among those who begin the esoteric work is, "delusions of grandeur".

What is your point gdo?

I was recently asking Stan to back up his claims about orgasms and wasting energy...

?

What does your recent contribution have to do with the price of tea in China?