Messages

Don't you work o.k. I'm a student too (Physics), so I'll take some time to reply.
First of all, I do not wanna sound rude! If I do it is cause my English isn't good enough and cause I'll try to come straight to the point.


"Sorry if that looked so, this is because when i replied to you (the piece you quoted) i meant RB-type of OBE, which is the same as LD to me (and mr catmeow). Catmeow however, in the quote you gave of him, speaks of the 'real' OBE (which i prefer to call NDE-OBE). So you see, we actually agree but because of the different terms and definitions we are using it becomes all a bit confusing. However i knew exactly what Catmeow meant in his last post and i can tell you it is the same as i see it."

O.k. I'll consider you two to agree then.

"First of all I showed you a study that shows most blind people (in that study, 15 out of 23 people were able to)  CAN see in NDE-OBE. This fact alone is NOT explainable by Bruce, since he claims it would not be possible. There certainly are blind people that cannot see during a NDE-OBE, but that was beside the point of the argument. However, i agree it would be interesting to check out more studies in this area and see what they can tell us. "

That is true the studies indicate some problems with RB view. However That doesn't mean that Roberts comments about OBE and LD are all wrong.  It would be very interesting to see what Robert replies to this. I would suggest you sum up some key points and post the questions direct at the Q/A- Board. Robert usually comes up with some very good explanations.


"By and large, examples of people born blind might show us that during an RB type – OBE, they cannot see. This is probably why Bruce writes the above in the first place. I am not aware of people born blind that perhaps have visual abilities in their dreams and RB-type OBE's. If such people do not exist, Bruce and me are both right since I say that these RB-type OBE's are dreams, and in dreams our mental blueprint considering the senses isn't negated  by our astral senses (i will come back to this in a moment). Bruce in his idea is also right because for him it proves his point (people born blind cannot see). But what if people born blind could see in RB-type OBE? This would disprove Bruce's theory in the first place. For me it would be new information too, and i should think carefully to incorporate this in my view on these things. (On)fortunately there are no researches that i  know of  that show us any people born blind can see in their dreams or RB-type OBE's."

I really wonder if there are born blinds that can see in dreams, that would be quite important. After all there still would be a possible explanation if they can't. This could be that as long as the physical Body is alive the Experiences in the Astral are somehow limited but once it is dead that limitation is gone. Robert has some good explanations on that as well but I can't exactly remember.
For some more interesting imputes see

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2320/is_2_64/ai_67718675

"So a partial negation of the mental construct means, that this part is being replaced by a new piece of mental construct, namely the ability to see (astrally). Upon entering NDE-OBE, a person born blind can all of a sudden see and this new vision ability is then incorporated into his or her mental construction, thereby negating the previous construction of being totally blind. That's what i mean. Of course not that the whole mental construction falls away (although i would not know to which degree this mental construction stays put after death, since obviously I'm not death). To make an easy comparison, if you thought that the Chinese people's skin color was pink, but you see a Chinese guy and his skin is not pink but yellowish, your old mental construction of the Chinese will have been negated. That is what i meant, not that the mental construct is gone."

I see. So what is generating the mental construct in the NDE's then? the Brain is out of the game. So I would then consider possibility that the same thing that generates the mental construct in the NDE's also generates the mental construct in waking life. Which I believe is not the brain but the mind itself.



"I do not assume anything about anyone, at least no less then any of you people do."
There are so many examples of RB-style OBE's other people have had, but which you have never experienced yourself (perhaps this includes your following comment: "people claim to have OBE's that are not very prone to thoughts.") Still you assume they are truthful."

Yeah but I wrote "claim" to indicate that.

".Your reaction also shows that you might think that i think these RB style-OBE's to be of less value or in some other way demeaning, but that is not the case. I am just arguing that it is not what it looks."

Yeah but it feels demeaning cause it would mean that they are generated by our brain which would limit their scope somehow. It would mean that we should strive for the real Astral and all our efforts so far were "in vain"
At least it kind of fells so and that's one of the mean reasons people don't like your ideas, to me they just don't feel right, but this is of course no argument (or is it?)

"Do you think it is coincidence that when people's visual center in the brain is active, during RB-type OBE, they can influence the astral by thought? Like, just as in dreams, which are the same or very close, not  only to me but also to RB? Do you say that, it is coincidence that when you go to deep sleep and beyond where this visual center is not active (if you want proof ill search it for you), this is no longer possible?"

That would actually mean that OBE's are indeed Dreams and that Dreams are indeed produced by the brain (and spirit). But is that really so? I would need to know the exact experiments that have been done the results and the numbers of people involved to draw such conclusions, So please could you give me the link.


"Go and try this experiment: In your next LD or RB style-OBE, go and meditate. Try to sink deeper into yourself, into deep sleep. Try to wake yourself up quickly, if that doesn't work, and there are also NO visuals whatsoever, then you know you are in deep sleep stage. Now when you are here, induce your kind of RB type-OBE, and tell me what happens. I have tried this as well (as have several people I closely know, some even while monitoring brain waves so they were 100% sure in deep sleep) and i can tell you, no OBE whatsoever can take place here. Would it be coincidence that the visual brain center is not active here? To me, not, yet I agree it doesn't prove anything beyond doubt, it just shows in which way we should seek the answers."

Yes in RB view it should in fact be possible to have OBE's  in deep sleep if that is not the case your viewpoint seems more logical, but remember. In RB's viewpoint  LD and OBE are not the same, there are multiple copies of conscious possible, there is a dream mind and a copie of conscious having the OBE, So he probably would say that your experiments are done with your dream mind which can not operate in deep sleep but that OBE's are possible in deep sleep. Now one would need to do alot of experiments with brain wave monitoring and people that say they can differentiate between OBE and LD to see which viewpoint is true.

"Besides this, I also strongly believe indeed that inducing a 'real' NDE-OBE from beyond deep sleep is possible, although i have not yet experienced this yet (i am working on it though). But the fact that REM sleep is so completely different from deep sleep and certainly from stages even deeper shows that there must be differences between RB type OBE's and NDE-OBE's. Also take note that reaching this level to get into NDE is very hard and might take years to learn. I can further underscore this by taking Clark into my argument (some nice articles i lately read, his comments on Bardon's work). His ideas are very similar to mine and his astral wandering is what i call NDE-OBE. If you read carefully you will see that free astral wandering can only be reached after many years of intensive training. Yet the RB type OBE can be done by almost anyone, in any case many people do not even need to practice it at all. This is logical since to go lucid beyond deep sleep (or like Bardon, in very deep trance), takes ages of practicing, unlike RB type OBE's.

See above, RB says LD and OBE are not the same LD are easys and OBE's hard to achieve cause they need deep trance

"Lastly your point about expectation and NDE experiences which you claim can not point us in a direction of an astral dimension that would be solid. 1st of all there are a lot of striking similarities between NDE's all over the world, not depending on what religion anyone has. These experiences are all different from an average RB type of OBE. This in itself shows us only that we might be on to something which is actually not the same at all!"

Well there certainly isn't! the Body is dead, which in RB view (well probably I should say as I understand it since I'm not RB and I don't want to misrepresent him here) it means that the dream mind is gone and that alot of subtle energy is transfered from the physical body to the Astral body which gives him a lot more stability.

"So well  now on to the astral, when people die. I cannot really tell you what all the stuff is what is going on there, but people frequently report at NDE that they are welcomed by all kinds of astral beings, be it their lost families or friends, etc. Who says that any of the astral beings can't take the shape of Jesus? This might sound hilarious, but before you laugh at this, let me make my argument here. I meant to say, the astral is not prone to the CURRENT thoughts of the person experiencing NDE."


As far as i know people in NDE have never been able to THINK jesus away, or to change his appearance, etc. So although the astral might in some sense confirm to the mental image someone has of it, it is not prone to change by thought whenever this person experiences NDE, which is what the argument was about. Namely, to show that during an RB type OBE you can shape  the world mostly as you wish (depending on skills though), and during an NDE you cant.

O.k. good point which actually makes me think something completely different, sorry for changing subject but: What thinks anyway?! I always thought that the brain thinks and that one can measure this with brain waves now if people with no brain activity can think.........well I'm confused. What does the brain do anyway? it is not needs for mental constructs it is not needed for thoughts hmmmm is it only needed to transfer info's from the physical to the mind in vica versa?

"Its indeed easy to say but that doesn't mean its not true. I'm not sure why you would give these examples anyway? To show that a mental construct doesn't exist? I can give you some idea however in what direction you should seek the answer. During sleep and dreams you are in a closer connection to your subconscious self, which allows you to give significance to dreams in the first place. Creativity is extremely increased for example, many people including myself have reported being able to make the most wonderful music in their (lucid)dreams. Would it be so hard to imagine that your dreams can take form according to a mental model you have of how it should approximately feel to be a flower, or to be multiple persons?2

No is not but it is somehow strange for me to assume that the brain can do all this, the mind yes but the brain?

"Also i have never said that in a dream you cannot experience things alien to your mental model. First of all your subconscious can bring on such experiences, second of all contact or a connection with others (astral beings perhaps) can bring you sensations like  unconditional love.

Well so far my thoughts on your critique on my thoughts, have a nice day anyone who dared to read this far, and to the rest of you also ... "

are you always this polite
Just one last thought. People knowing nothing about OBE's and dreaming for years , suddenly report that they wake up floating above their bodys which lay in the bed. they get very scared and don not understand this at all, never the less it happens from time to time (I know alot of this people) No if We assume that OBe's are Dreams , we would this experiences all be so alike why should the brain suddenly simulate this which is really not like a dream were events happen usually like you expect them to happen (in a way, you are afraid and voila there is the monster...) but this experiences are completely against their expectations and alike, why does this happen i wonder.

Cheers Tom

PS your viewpoint is after all very good and I respect it.

Xetrov and catmeow

Your ideas seem pretty inconsistent to me. I'll try to show why:

First of all you seem to agree but actually support conflicting ideas:

catmeow writes:

This distinction, between LD and OBE is classical. I have been studying the subject for 30 years and have read most books on the subject. The above distinction (between LD and OBE) has been made by several authors, eg Celia Green, Robert Crookall etc. Even Sylvan Muldoon, one of the early pioneers, accepted that a person could be dreaming (for instance dreaming about flying) and then suddenly "wake" out of the flying dream to find that he is actually floating above his physical body. If the dream state and the OBE state were one and the same thing, there could be no such awakening.

Xetrov writes:

don't really see why you raised this point, perhaps to show that LD and OBE are 2 different things? Anyway your claim is just not true. It depends on the method which is used to induce a LD or 'OBE' (which is almost the same phenomenon anyway, according to me and to RB who says they are very closely related, i just explain them differently). I'm also active on a forum on lucid dreaming, and according to the experiences of many people there, one of the experiences that is considered closely linked to WILD and to induction of OBE are these vibrations. These vibrations happen a lot when you go into a trance state and keep yourself conscious.

I could go on, but the point is you two do NOT agree! But,  you think you do ,which makes it quite confusing to follow the discussion...

Anyways....

The following points seem problematic to me:

-Do you have any studies that show that people born blind can't see during OBE but can during NDE? Are there really no born blinds that can see during OBE? (what would that prove anyway?)

Xetrov: You write:

"Whetter we are awake or asleep, we always experience consciousness from within our mental construction of the world (including a mental body)."

and

"However, when people really go into the astral, by separating their astra-mental body, or spirit, during an NDE-OBE, the mental construction of our bodies is (partly) negated by the real astral senses"

You assume that there is a "real" (Astral)world and I mental construct (Which in it self already is a assumption which one can not verify) then you go on  state that our waking life is inside this mental construct but the NDE's takes place in the "real" Astral outside the mental construct.  There is absolutely no logical reason to assume this! what criterion would you use to decide whether an experience is taking place in the mental construct or not. That I would really like to know!!!

then you go on...

"There are at least 5 (and probably 2 more) stages of sleep/awareness, correlating to brainwave length. 1 being Betha, 2 Alpha, 3 Theta, 4 Delta, and 5 beyond delta. LD's and RB-style OBE's all happen above level 4, during REM sleep (REM sleep consists of a mixture of Betha Alpha and Theta)"

and

"However, if you still go deeper than delta stage, you get into level 5 of sleep which is where you can be able to induce a NDE-OBE. "

Ermmmm

To assume what other people are capable of doing is not a smart thing to do, to say the least.
You actually believe that people could have a real OBE during sleep, but simply assume that most of them just fantasize a real OBE cause there brain still works but you have the know how to "really" do it.
You fail to support this thesis with any real facts.

your only arguments seems to be:

1) In NED's the environment is not prone to thoughts but in common OBE's it is. Well, this is just not true.
It is a well known facts that NED's seem to comply the expectations of the Person having the NED's (Christs have different NED's then Buddhists) No Evidence supports a solid, stable, objective World after dead, also people claim to have OBE's that are not very prone to thoughts as well.

and...2)Most OBE's are close to Dreams...

Well what are dreams anyway? Just Fantasy? It is well know that you can experience things in LD's that you never dreamed of being able to do. things beyond our imagination "split yourself into multiple persons" "be a flower" "experience unconditional love" "Know everything"  "experience unknown colors" etc..
Isn't it a bit easy to just say, thats all just a mental construct A simulation of reality by the brain?

Since when is a simulation more extensive then the thing simulated?

Cheers Tom

Xetrov and catmeow

Your ideas seem pretty inconsistent to me. I'll try to show why:

First of all you seem to agree but actually support conflicting ideas:

catmeow writes:

This distinction, between LD and OBE is classical. I have been studying the subject for 30 years and have read most books on the subject. The above distinction (between LD and OBE) has been made by several authors, eg Celia Green, Robert Crookall etc. Even Sylvan Muldoon, one of the early pioneers, accepted that a person could be dreaming (for instance dreaming about flying) and then suddenly "wake" out of the flying dream to find that he is actually floating above his physical body. If the dream state and the OBE state were one and the same thing, there could be no such awakening.

Xetrov writes:

don't really see why you raised this point, perhaps to show that LD and OBE are 2 different things? Anyway your claim is just not true. It depends on the method which is used to induce a LD or 'OBE' (which is almost the same phenomenon anyway, according to me and to RB who says they are very closely related, i just explain them differently). I'm also active on a forum on lucid dreaming, and according to the experiences of many people there, one of the experiences that is considered closely linked to WILD and to induction of OBE are these vibrations. These vibrations happen a lot when you go into a trance state and keep yourself conscious.

I could go on, but the point is you two do NOT agree! But,  you think you do ,which makes it quite confusing to follow the discussion...

Anyways....

The following points seem problematic to me:

-Do you have any studies that show that people born blind can't see during OBE but can during NDE? Are there really no born blinds that can see during OBE? (what would that prove anyway?)

Xetrov: You write:

"Whetter we are awake or asleep, we always experience consciousness from within our mental construction of the world (including a mental body)."

and

"However, when people really go into the astral, by separating their astra-mental body, or spirit, during an NDE-OBE, the mental construction of our bodies is (partly) negated by the real astral senses"

You assume that there is a "real" (Astral)world and I mental construct (Which in it self already is a assumption which one can not verify) then you go on  state that our waking life is inside this mental construct but the NDE's takes place in the "real" Astral outside the mental construct.  There is absolutely no logical reason to assume this! what criterion would you use to decide whether an experience is taking place in the mental construct or not. That I would really like to know!!!

then you go on...

"There are at least 5 (and probably 2 more) stages of sleep/awareness, correlating to brainwave length. 1 being Betha, 2 Alpha, 3 Theta, 4 Delta, and 5 beyond delta. LD's and RB-style OBE's all happen above level 4, during REM sleep (REM sleep consists of a mixture of Betha Alpha and Theta)"

and

"However, if you still go deeper than delta stage, you get into level 5 of sleep which is where you can be able to induce a NDE-OBE. "

Ermmmm

To assume what other people are capable of doing is not a smart thing to do, to say the least.
You actually believe that people could have a real OBE during sleep, but simply assume that most of them just fantasize a real OBE cause there brain still works but you have the know how to "really" do it.
You fail to support this thesis with any real facts.

your only arguments seems to be:

In NED's the environment is not prone to thoughts but in common OBE's it is. Well, this is just not true.
It is a well known facts that NED's seem to comply the expectations of the Person having the NED's (Christs have different NED's then Buddhists) No Evidence supports a solid, stable, objective World after dead, also people claim to have OBE's that are not very prone to thoughts.

and...Most OBE's are close to Dreams...

Well what are dreams anyway? Just Fantasy? It is well know that you can experience things in LD's that you never dreamed of being able to do. things beyond our imagination "split yourself into multiple persons" "be a flower" "experience unconditional love" "Know everything"  "experience unknown colors" etc..
Isn't it a bit easy to just say, thats all just a mental construct A simulation of reality by the brain?

Since when is a simulation more extensive then the thing simulated?

Cheers Tom

Hi Tombodenmann, If you can start another topic along those lines (can't really make "@mods" a sticky!!) & also expand a bit more on converting lucid dreams to projections, then I'll fix it at the top, next time I'm logged in,

kind regards,
Mark

Done! Thanks!

Hi there!

Converting Lucid dreams into Astral Projections seems to be a promising way for people like myself, who do have great difficulty to relax completely when awake. This is especially the case since LD's are way easier to achieve then conscious Projections (at least for the average Person).
I raised this subject also cause it comes up time after time and seems to interest a lot of people.

So...

-Which techniques do you think are the best, to convert a Lucid Dream     into an Astral Projection?


Please feel free to add Experiences, Comments, Advice etc...

To make a start I share My own experience:

When the LD's ends I try to lay still. If I manage to stay mentally and physically relaxed, the vibrations may hit about 10-60 Seconds after I wake up. (I only did it 4 times yet)

Below I posted The reply RB gave on the subject: (Don't fear to re speak though )

1) What techniques do you recommend to convert a LD into an OBE? (Or were can I get Info on that matter ?)

2) Do you think this conversion-approach is something promising to do?

3) Is there any certain test I can perform while out of body to unfailingly determine if I'm having an Astral Projection or a LD?


G'day!

1. One way to convert is to 'feel' for your body. Another is to fall backwards in an LD. But conversion is hit or miss. Sometimes it works, sometimes not.

2. Yes, its worth trying.

3. The only way to be certain is to induce an OBE exit from an awake state of consciousness and then to return for deliberate reentry. The dream mind is capable of producing almost perfect OBE dreams from start to finish, eg, you'll dream you wake up then make an obe exit, etc, but its all a dream. The only way to tell for sure is if there is no break in consciousness from start to finish.

Robert Bruce.

Hi there

What do you guys (girls) think about the idea of making a Sticky with the subject
"How to convert LD's into Astralprojections" ? ( Or something similar)

I thinks thats a very interesting subject with a lot of benefits for people who have problems inducing Astral Projections from the waking state. I'm sure there have already been posted a lot of good techiques and I believe it would be helpful to gather a collection of them on one thread.

Just an idea though

Cheers Tom

Hi Tombodenmann,

I shall just shortly reply here, but in reality there's actually a very elaborate theory behind al these things you mention (could probably write a book on it... hehe). RB's Astral is exactly the same as my mental space. In my viewpoint a project like the astral pulse island could very well be realizable, remember i explained that remote sensing (what i called AP before) makes use of subconscious connections to places, but this can also be to other people/spirits. In that sense it would resemble shared dreaming, where mental space is (partly) shared through a subconscious link. Your experience with colors and linked emotions is very interesting, it shows that we are able to make (more) use of emotional sensing etc while we are not awake. I would for example categorize heightened musical abilities, which i often experience in LD's, in the same group of experiences.

By the way i just thought of something, RB seems to imply that you have to develop your astral senses, in a sense that if you don't, you will be astrally blind, deaf etc. So how does that relate to people, born blind, experiencing an NDE-OBE and being able to see (yes there are examples of this phenomenon)? Just a thought...

Xetrov.

Well I certainly find it fascinating that blind people can see within OBE's, could you give me any hint were I could read reports or more info on that matter?
As far as the astral senses are concerned I do not know about RB's viewpoint, but probably you missunderstood him. I suggest I go to the Question-Answer board and ask him directly.
Basically I must say I do not see any major differences between I and RB.
Ahhh.. One Question: How do you explain the following?

People having a OBE usually experience vibrations before the separtion, but People that induce LD from the waking state "WILD" Don't have this vibrations!

Hi  Xetrov

Yes I think your Viewpoint is a plausible alternative. I guess in the end everybody has to do his exploration.

Keep in mind that the differences between RB and you are, I believe, Subtle. When you rewrite (If you do) your article I suggest to make very clear definitions. As I understand RB, the Astral is a Fluid Medium which reacts on thoughts which is close to a mental space like you describe it. The difference being that if there is a real Astraldimension, there must be some inprints that are stronger (the ones, a lot of people contributed to) and some that are faint (personel ones). So it should be possible to create places together (See Astral pulse island Board). In your viewpiont this things should not be possible. Also,  there is said that one can visit real Spirits in the Astraldimension, an other possible exploration subject.
Lastly I wanna say that I had one unique OBE-experience were I perceived colors not existing on earth, I know I could not remember them cause my human brain didn't know them and that's what happened when I awoke. I just remembered the feel of the colors. Strange
Well Anyways, if you wanna verify your theorie you have to draw clear conclusions that are in contradiction to an Astraldimension and roadtest them. Then post your experiences and people will listen, as long as you don't do that, It remains a "menal game" in the physical.

Thanks for the interessting discussion! Cheers Tom

Hello Xetrov, I'm glad your still around. I read your artikel carefully and want to make some remarks. I did not read the other replies so, I might repete things already said.

You say:


-It is possible to perceive info from the "real" world during OBE. cause a part of you conscious splits and travels ("shifts") there, (while one part remains in the body)

Now, I must say this is bascally what Robert Bruce says! I mean, you say a part of the conscious can leave the body to gather information! at least thats the way I understand you. If thats not what you mean you have to explain very clearly, how you believe remote sensing works cause thats crucial here.

Now you go on to say, that the brain creates the OBE-world and integartes the infos gathered.

What facts do you have, to backup that claim? Is there any real prove that dreams are created by the brain? Your argument seems to be that the brain is active. I would argue the other way: In NDE's conscious is still there without brain, so one can conclude that conscious is NOT a Product of the brain. This would mean that dreams, LD and OBE can NOT be a thing created solely by the brain.

On the other hand Nobody cliams that the brain does not play some part. The brain might be the converter that transfer the experiences to our body.

One can also ask of what significance that is for the person experiencing the OBE.  We experience a realsitic world and we know that some things in it are real, This fact remains whether one believs in Bruce scenario by Robert Bruce or in the one you created.

On the other Hand you say:

- There is a human spirit independant from the physical body (NED) able to perceive the enviroment like a point of conscious when seperated.

Folllowing this line of reasoning I actually find it more logical to assume that OBE and NDE are in fact the same thing, with minor differences explained very logical by Robert Bruce.
Like you said with the pink elephant, one should assume the most logical explonation.
If there is a spirit and if we can feel our conscious leaving our body and even gather correct info from the outside world while Obeing, then the obvious conclusion (at least for me) is that we (as spirits) leave our body during OBE.

Hello Xertrov

I like your article, but want to make a critical argument (No experience just Logic):

One Key issue is, wether it is possible to perceive the physical during a Projection. You yourself, as well as Robert Bruce say it is possible. Now, if you fell your conscious outside your physical Body correctly perceiving things remote from your body, perceiving a whole world. There are now 2 options.

1) your brain (or conscious) is able to generate a complete realistic world and perceive things from the physical and integrate them into this world.

2) Scenario like Bruce describes it

Now, is 1) really more logical then 2) ? If 1) is true, it is logical to conclude that your whole world might be gerated by the Conscious and that there is no physical world at all (scenarion 3).

So what I'm basically trying to say is that not 1) is more logical then 2)



I'm actually tempted to say that there is no real difference between 1) and 2)! And that 3) is the most Logical.

Any comments welcome (@People who favour experience over Logic: I do as well! )

Cause you wrote "Brain Rulez", but Buddhism is not about Brain so.......

aleshah I think your attitude is not compatible with your signature

The Mind probably is, but my current brain isn't...........Maybe sometime latter.....

Keeping in mind, that I basically believe that my brain can't understand the universe...

I give it a shot anyway

My Theorie of the Orgin of souls:

First I assume that the soul is beyond time. I think thats plausible cause the newest findings from Quantum Physics (There seem to be particles independend from time) as well as experiences from Robert Bruce point in that very direction.
Also, if one asssumes that a soul is created by a god or a Main conscious it seems appropiate the suppose that god is beyond time or vica versa?!
Now, Why should a single conscious create souls? One can only perceive something if there are two subjects the Perciever and the thing perceived. So if a single conscious wants to experience anything, or Life for that matter, it has to split itself into parts-> Souls. Since this parts exist beyond time, God can perceive itself via souls and at the same time god and souls stay united as one as well as God stays God.
Remaining question who created God? This question is self-defeating if one assumes God is beyond time, expressione like start, beginning, creation etc make no sense. God was always, HE is eternal.

Aouch, my Head hurts.............

Time is a human cncept meaning that thing A happens before B meaning thus A can influences B but B cannot influence A, which leads to cause and effect. Now I thinkm it is pretty unlocigal to assume that our brains can really comprehend the universe or even the orgine of the soul; if there is such a thing at all. Physics already operates with more then 4 Dimensions to explain what we see, can our brains understand lets say 11 Dimensions? I can't.........

I don not understand the Idea of Karma in Buddhism completly, This is due to the fact that the word Karma is used in different ways by different teachings.
As I understand Buddhism. it is not about believing but about experiencing and thus knowing. Now I do not clearly see how karma fits into this. Isn't karma something one has to believe?

Lets look at an example

A child gets painfully killed by an adult.

Now what exact part does karma play in this example?

Thanks, Tom

-If one closes the astral eyes during protection?

-looks at one point for a lenghty period of time? Does one awake?

-looks at ones own hands? Do they melt?

-Do Numbers mutate?

Trying to see if LD and OBE have differences.......

Thanks Tom

First I want to say that I believe the highest goal one can strive for is not psychic powers but enlightment(the end of all suffering) therefore I do believe the issue raised by this post is very important.

It is said that raising the kundalini will lead to enlightment. I've just read the book by Gopi Krishna were he describes his Kundalini experiences. Now, He actually does describe states were he feels unified with everything and feels unconditional Love his descriptions are similiar to does by Rober Bruce but these states are limited in time and seem to make a normal life impossible.
to come to the point, these states are not what the Buddha descriped as enlightment, at the most, I would regard them as partial enlightments.
For me, enlightments means: the end of all suffering, there is no attachement to anything whatsoever, a completly enlighted person is in a permanent state of freedom does have extrem wisdom in the understanding of how the mind works the concept of an ego is understood as illusion by direct knowing.
What is puzzling me as well is the fact that in buddhas teaching the way to enlightment is meditation in a way that one does just observe the mind until one is completly liberated. No chakra mediation no energy raising involved, no kundalini like experiences involved.
Now my questions: Is the expression "enlightment" used in the Kundalini terminology something other then it is in Buddism and if so what is the relation between the two. Did maybe Robert and Gopi not walk the path to the end or how can one interprete this differences?

I'm very well aware, that probably nobody on this board has the answers but maybe someone has some insights or suggested reading on the matter

Cheers Tom

I've been fooling around  a little with N.E.W  about 1 year ago and started again  about 2 weeks ago. I also read the posts about Kundalini and I do have some questions.

-when doing the full body circuit, is one supposed to move the energy, felling the whole path thru the body very clearly, or is it o.k. to feel the energy going up the legs then switching to the hands sucking in energy there and then kind of switching awareness to the krone chakra, imagine the energy to go there while inhaling. Cause I just cant inhale so slowly to have enough time to really move my awareness all the way up without rushing.

- What effects did you experience after doing N.e.w. for 2 months/ 6 months and lets say 2 years. Could you please get as concrete as possible. o.k. I know this question has been asked before but still I couldn't find a satisfying answer on what concret benefits I can expect. I'll definitly go on with energy work to see for myself but it would motivate me if you could give me some candys.
-Will it help me with LD?

-Will it help me gain some psychic abbilities, and if so, what would that be?( I want to OBE / open the 3th eye / do telekinesis.....am I on the right track[?])  


-when doing N.e.w including chakra stimulation, isn't it possible to aweaken the kundalini? since it really can't see much difference in n.e.w. compared to some kundalini raising techniques. I admit, I dont not know too much about it.

Well thanks for your time, Tom

I don't have much trouble getting LD lately. But every time I try to OBE from a LD I fail. That really sucks[!] cause I'm actually more interrested in OBe's then dreams. My technique is that I decide to end the LD and then try not to move and wait for the vibrations to kick in but in only worked two times so far. Most of the times I fail, cause I feel the strong urge the move or wake up too much. I have a lot of problmes to relax while awake so so I need to OBE from my dreams.

Can you guys please explain me what techniques you use to OBE from dreams. I would be very thankful!!!!

Some people may find it a boring question but I think its very relevant.
Who has a 100% Proof that it is possible to visit our "real World" during an OBE. I think that is a extremly interessting question.
Please be very honest to yourself: Did you ever see something during an OBE which turned out to be true and which was impossible for your brain to create from your waking experience only.
For Example: You Saw a Nail inside the Wall during an OBE, broke the wall apart in the morning and there was really a nail.

Why do proofs matter:

-I'm curious
-the better you understand something the better you can use it. What could be bad about knowing as much as possible about OBE's? It helps me interprete the experience if I know as much as possible about the nature of it.
-I want to know if I'm really walking thru our neighbours has our if it just a fantasie, is that so hard to understand?
Lets assume you see a beautyful girl during an OBE. Don't you wanna know if she's really alive?[]
Common people! I don't believe that you don't care about that Issue. If we stick together we can uncover the truth.

My Idea is as follows. We agree on a certain question or task and next time we have a LD we perform it. After 2 weeks or so everybody describes his experience. This would give us a possibility to determine to what degree our experiences are personnel and to what degree they're universal. And It would be fun!
Who would participate?

For example: we could ask other dream charakters who they are, Wish to meet an angel, ask somebody whether there is a karmic law or not and so on......

When I enter the vibrational state, which doesn't happend that often so far (maybe once a month, mostly when aweakening from a LD)
the vibrations are extremly strong, It feels like my head is crashing like every muscle in my body is tensing really strong, it feels like I'm pressing my teeths together until they breake, my whole body fells like shaking: It doesn't hurt but I'm afraid that I'll hurt myself.
So is this normal or maybe a sign that I'm not ready to leave my body?  Or shall I just ignore it and procede?Am I doing something wrong or will the vibrations get less dramatic with practice?
I'm worried!
thanks Tom

In my last LD I tried to get to the RTZ. So I closed my eyes and said "kitchen" cause I wanted to visit my home. I felt some movement and as I opened my eyes I saw only black it was kind of a void, i could see something very faint but not really much. I tried several times even saying "Kitchen RTZ" same result. then I decided to return to the dream which worked. Any ideas what went wrong, Ayn Tips for my next time?
Thanks Tom

I wonder if doing lucid dreaming might be harmful to the human body. After all LD isn't natural, at least not for me. Assuming it's true that the human brain uses dreams to organize memory from the waking life, dealing with problems or doing whatever, couldn't it be harmful then, if one practices LD on a daily basis?
Please share your thoughts on this, Tom

BTW: In my last LD I tried to get to the RTZ. So I closed my eyes and said "kitchen" cause I wanted to visit my home. I felt some movement and as I opened my eyes I saw only black it was kind of a void, i could see something very faint but not really much. I tried several times, same result. then I decided to return to the dream which worked. Any ideas what went wrong?