Messages

Here you go.
http://www.correctionsproject.com/corrections/pris_priv.htm
http://government.cce.cornell.edu/doc/html/PrisonsPrivatization.htm

Did you just send me on a wild goose chase CFT?

As far as I could see, there was nothing in those links that would support your dubious claim about any "lobbying to criminalize things that shouldn't be crimes-like being the children of convicts, for example".

It all really started with the fact that money is a tool of economic slavery.

Yet another patently false claim. Not an ounce of truth in it.

Money may be a tool but it is more often used for things other than economic slavery.

I use money for good things. So does the rest of my family. So do my friends.

For those who can only see the bad that is done with this tool called 'money'... perhaps a look into one's own heart might be revealing.

lobbying to criminalize things that shouldn't be crimes-like being the children of convicts, for example.

When, where or how has this been done?

Two main arguments I can see against the death penalty.
1. Juries make mistakes and convict innocent people. Top prosecutors are very good at getting convictions and dont care about whether a defendant commited the crime or not.
2. To say that murder is wrong and then kill people who do it doesnt really say that killing is wrong. It teaches revenge. I think it gives the wrong impression to children growing up in such a country.
[...]
The death penalty isnt self defence. It's revenge. Self defence would be killing someone who's trying to kill you.
To the death penalty guy: What do you think of countries who execute for crimes other than murder? Is that still a sane solution?

1. This problem is easily remedied. Never apply the death penalty in cases of circumstantial evidence, alone (this is presently the norm in most USA courts). In the case of this Norwegian psychopath his guilt is already obvious. To not execute him because some other guy in prison might actually be innocent is... well, insane.
2. This brings up yet again how deception has so permeated the common consciousness that a large percentage of humanity no longer recognizes the difference between killing and murder.

Convicting a homicidal psychopath of murder who is caught red-handed and then executing him *is* self defense. Plain and simple. The distinction is clear and easy to see. But for those thoroughly indoctrinated (brainwashed) in state mental... er, education programs it is nearly impossible to face squarely and think logically about it all.

Execution is killing but it is NOT murder. And unless the the executioner is a family member of someone the psychopath murdered it is NOT revenge. It does not teach revenge.

What do you think of countries who execute for crimes other than murder? Is that still a sane solution?

Like the insanity of executing a woman for the crime of being raped? What's that got to do with the price of tea in China?
We were talking about the death penalty for an obvious homicidal psychopath as a collective act of self defense.

An eye for an eye and the world goes blind.
[....]
Considering how incredibly rare prison escapes are these days, this is really a non-issue.

In my experience, people encouraging the death penalty are either 1) religious, or 2) personally offended and angered by the crime, and want to satisfy their own personal sense of justice.

The eye for an eye comment is quaint but ignores the main point (typical).
The death penalty is self-defense. It is a sane response to a real problem.

What makes you think prison escapes are so rare? While the rate has dropped quite a bit lately it is hardly negligible. If you can find stats to back up your claim I would like to see them. I found this on Yahoo;
"The number of escapees from US prisons dropped from 12.4 escapes per 1,000 inmates in 1981 to .5 per 1,000 in 2001. With approximately 3,000,000 people incarcerated, that would be about 1,500 per year."

That's a lot, imo.

1. I am not religious
2. I am neither offended nor angered by something done on the other side of the world, in a place that I have almost no ties whatsoever to.

In my experience those who oppose the Death Penalty are lost in chronic Denial and refuse to face facts.

I appreciate what you are saying, but I guess what my thesis here is saying is that the fundamental concept of punishment and consequences in general may be at fault.

What is your argument for why there should be consequences? I mean that sincerely.

The man is a homicidal psychopath.

The death penalty is simply the sane response to such a threat to society. It is simple self-defense. Life in prison is not a sane option in a case like this. The possibility of escape and further death and mayhem is too great a risk to take a chance on.

Ted Bundy was caught and convicted and then escaped to go on and commit more murder sprees.

Oh btw, the highest plane is the Buddhaic plane according to Hinduism and also in some Buddhist teachings...You can go all the way up until you attain your light body but only highly spiritually developed ones can go that much.

The Mental Plane is the highest and purist of the lowest and dirtiest... so to speak, sort of....


Any sincere Spiritual Child who makes the effort can make a quick visit to the HIGH Spiritual Realms. They may not not be able to tarry long and will certainly not find regular employment there, but a quick visit is well within their reach, imo.

...though, what the church actually approves of and what the people understand about their religion are often to different things.  the church may be down, but for the "masses" it may be misunderstood and chastised.

Yeah. check this out;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2DRwFiP37o&NR=1

Good Catholic girl goes OBE!

check out her website;
http://links.visibli.com/2343fb388cdeaf33/?web=b39b75&dst=http%3A//www.outofbodytravel.org/mysticknowledgeseries.html

(that is just one page - click around and get a loada what real, ordinary, everyday Catholic Mystics are made of...

yeah baby...)

... My question is how do we reach to the mental planes (i.e. mental projection)? Are there any specific techniques ?
Does the transition happen from astral plane or you can directly move to mental plane from physical plane.
Thank you...

From my personal experience I would say one of the better methods is to do what it takes to make a serious effort to reach above the Atmic Realm -- then sometimes fall short and land in the Mental realm.  

I believe the transition can happen from wherever your location might be, physical, astral or other.

[Black Magic]

Well the 10 commandments came from a higher state of consciousness which means there was some sort of consciousness expansion going on. Jesus and many wise philosophers astral projected. It's a spiritual ability and the reason religions may prohibit it, is to gain control of the masses. That's why the Roman Catholic Church took out Reincarnation and replaced it with Heaven and Hell to control the masses with fear. It is important to keep in mind that religion is completely man made and misinterpreted by those who seek power. Anything natural such as Meditation, Astral Projection, and psychic abilities are very useful tools for personal growth.

There is a bit of misinformation in there. Please show the facts that demonstrate how " That's why the Roman Catholic Church took out Reincarnation and replaced it with Heaven and Hell to control the masses with fear".

The RC recently made Padre Pio a Saint based on his miracles and documented ability to project a visible double to distant locations on a regular and routine basis and render assistance to those in need. I believe he died in 1968. He was a cloistered monk who left his monastery on only very rare occasions. From psychic clairvoyance to healing to manifesting physical objects to levitating, etc., the evidence shows that this man may be the greatest Magician to walk the Earth in our lifetimes, imho.

The Catholic Church does not ban nor forbid what is being referred to as 'witchcraft' here in these discussions. In fact, much of the ritual and many forms of Catholic prayer easily fit under the general description of witchcraft in a broad sense. (Using incantation/prayer/chant with willful intent to produce a physical outcome).  It is the basic form of Black Magic that is forbidden. That which psychically violates the personal space of others and interferes with free choice is almost universally repugnant.

and just FYI -- I believe Sufism is considered Heretical practice by both Sunni and Shia authorities.

There are two main ways you can increase wealth of an individual- you can provide the ability to procure a greater volume of aquistions, or the ability to procure aquisitions of better quality. What I am describing as wealth here is a mixture of value (the value of what labor can purchase) and quality which is thought to translate into quality of life.

I think your idea of "wealth" is a subset of what I consider true wealth. To me, true wealth is the ability to wake up in the morning and proceed to move through the day in whatever manner I choose without having to pay heed to the demands of others (for a limited period of time - the longer that period ... the greater the wealth -- within reason).

I imagine a truly wealthy man as one who can can walk away from his source of income and sustenance for a period of time and return later and simply pick up where he left off, no ill effects to be observed.

What you describe sounds more like wealth as being measured in various types and quantities of acquisitions in a purely materialistic sense. The older man who must work 80 hours a week to keep his high-rise condo and mercedes benz, etc. is NOT wealthy, imho. But for those in their youth this may be necessary for a time. Those who wish to be wealthy would do well to target a debt-free financial status by 40 years of age. If you hit that goal by 50 and you have the basics like a desirable home, reliable transportation, satisfying entertainment, ... etc. well... you are then, well on your way to a wealthy status.

TIME is a precious commodity to me. I went through a recent period where I spent many mornings sleeping in at my leisure as I explored new OBE methods. In my younger years I did not enjoy such luxury.

This notion of "the value of what labor can purchase" sounds like Marxist drivel to me. How that moron ever got elevated to such high status is a mystery. Karl Marx was an idiot. No clue whatsoever....

Mere labor can be leveraged hugely with mental and emotional discipline to arrive at a very measurable condition of wealth. Dependency on the State is for slaves. A truly wealthy man depends first on himself, then his family, then his friends, then his community, and finally... last in line... way down the line, hopefully ... comes a dependency on the State... which is worse than slavery... in both the temporal and eternal sense....

God help us and save us.

The statement connected to yours, to which the "indeed" was attached, was idea of wealth creation, which you brought up earlier:

My problem was that the "indeed" (implying some form of agreement or concurrence) was followed with an assessment that differed significantly from what a I had actually said.

Your "indeed" about capitalism  ==>
1. produced vast sums of wealth
2. through competition and
3. expansion of available capital.

My point was concerning 'specifically' the "common man" while your followup addressed the general sums of "wealth" (usually presented as being held by a few greedy bankers and robber barons, etc.). My point was that the wealth of the common man had been increased by free market capitalism. The self-deluded marxist mentality cannot see the improvement in the wealth of the masses. They are obsessed with the disproportionate distribution of that wealth. The fact that the common man enjoys a much greater condition of wealth just does not register. They are lost in a fog of ENVY.

Point 2. is off a little (competition did not create wealth) but point 3. is KEY -- the huge sums of money flowing through the hands of average folks is staggering. A typical USA family earning $75,000/yr has brought in over a million dollars in 13 years. Even a $50k/yr income is a million in 20 years. For New York garbage collectors wealth creation should be a snap!    Were it not for the idiot toys, more car and house than is needed, absurd vacations, maxed out credit card debt at 15% or higher, nonstop flow of mood altering substances... etc.
The problem is NOT that the rich aren't paying enough in taxes... the problem is lazy, self-indulgent stupidity run amok.
As long as The Fed pumps only enough cash into the system to maintain about a 1% inflation rate, productivity can grow and wealth along with it. When the Fed sells out to the politicians ... well, then there is going to be hell to pay.

No amount of inherently incompetent government oversight is going to change that.

The problem isn't the Presidents... the problem is Congress. They write the budgets. And the representatives merely represent the ignorance and lack of Conscious Awareness among the citizens. (Although FDR and his dopey socialist New Deal mired the nation in a Great Depression for a decade and it only ended when he died).

I think your claim about corporate wealth being concentrated in the hands of the Board is simply false. Obviously there are a few such cases but in general, no.

The idea about assigning a max lifespan to corporations came out of a gedanken experiment where I cogitated on the natural problems that we see arising in some sectors. The granting of Legal entity status equivalent to a human individual is a problem. But when that entity has the possibility of eternal life on Earth the problem is magnified hugely. Only true Saints can resist the abuse of power from so much knowledge and experience that long life can bestow. And simple sector rotation requirements of liquidated assets would fix the "Phoenix syndrome" you foresee. On such a large scale it would be much simpler to ensure than enforcing the "wash sale" rules in stocks, which is fairly easily enforced.

Free market capitalism and factional reserve banking have indeed produced vast sums of wealth through competition and expansion of availible capital. I do think it is more than fair though to point out that several evils have also arisen in parallel; it is quite utopian to think that an unregulated free-market is either the absolute best system that could exist, or that we have access to developing.

Indeed? Indeed what? No one has made this claim. Again I want to point out this trick of replying to something that was not said in order to pretend that a refutation of a threatening truth has been made.
[note: I am simply pointing out a mostly Leftist self-deceptive weakness here and I am not trying to make an outright accusation of overt dishonesty.]

No one made any claim to, "the absolute best system that could exist, or that we have access to developing"

NOT EVEN CLOSE!

My claim was that Free Market capitalism along with "Central Banking" (not 'factional reserve banking'... why did you alter the claim in that manner?...) has increased the wealth of the common man more so than any other economic system in the history of mankind.

The evils that have arisen at the same time are not a reflection of any characteristic inherent in that economic system but an expression of the creative capacity of the Souls that now are empowered, through monetary wealth, to generate positive or negative outcomes consistent with their level of Conscious Awareness and Spiritual Development.

The problem is NOT capitalism.

The problem is people.

(Lazy, dishonest, thieving people to be more exact.)

It is fair to speak of the benefits, but let's also take inventory of the faults:

1) Since the U.S. runs by a "democratic" system, influencing public opinion will directly control who is elected and what policies they bring; control of media is in the hands of monied interests who finance them; therefore, having the ability to amass large sums of capital directly translates into ability to controll public opinion, and to partially dictate policy as a result. Add to this the fact that monied interests have been shown time and time again to have even more direct and powerful effect on policy through lobbyists, and it begins to seem like it is money righting the laws, not the public interest.

But let us be clear about this and understand - the USA is not run by a democratic system. It is a Representative Republic. Though, those Representatives *are* democratically elected. It might seem like a nit-pik but the distinction becomes critical down the road a bit. (As the Citizens of Athens discovered, "any democracy is doomed as soon as the electorate discovers that they can vote themselves benefits from the public coffers"... true and pure Democracies are a very bad idea -- the Founding Fathers rejected "Democracy" in order to avoid the "Tyranny of the masses").

The monied interests are not a monolithic hierarchy. The Lamestream media, NBC, MSNBC (what a joke) - CBS, ABC, CNN are all in bed with the Socialists and bent upon global servitude to the la-la Udopian dream that only completely neurotic, deep denial loons could possibly accept as a real possibility in the real world. The VAST majority of the monied interests pour HUGE sums of their money and interest into Socialist and Marxist organizations and their propaganda. Why do you think that might be?... (hint; tyranny is built-in to those systems of government... it fits hand-in-glove with their intentions!)

Free Market Capitalism (note the word "free") is anathema to these tyrannical monsters.

I agree that "corporations" are a problem. The problem with "Corporations could be solved very easily;

All Corporations must dissolve and liquidate all assets and distribute those assets to the shareholders at the age of 75 years ... or some other number roughly equivalent to the average lifespan of a normal human being.

We need to start thinking, and "doing more of what we know works" is not good enough until we try a lot more things.

Doing more of what we know works does not mean you can't can't try new things. By all means, get out there and start trying. I am just saying that it is criminal to FORCE people against their will to not just participate in some giant Udopian Pipe Dream, but to steal their property and redistribute it to others who make bad decisions and poor choices out of laziness and dishonest intent. (only to watch the easily gotten wealth get squandered on more poor choices). This is a very dishonest Spiritually ignorant scheme that is very destructive.

We can easily start thinking how "doing more of what we know works" is more than good enough -- and that it only makes sense. Until someone can put together a functional prototype that demonstrates better results and outcomes, a poorly considered shift to known inferior systems, enforced by tyrants who promise some fantasy la la dream world, is insanity.

[later and only if the students want]

Where I claimed that? You are now fabricating things. I said that it is possible, not that all "initiaties" (what the word it means, then?) can do it. In fact there are a lot of people that think they are "initiated" that cannot do it.
And I repeat that those "initiates" you have met they mean nothing at all.

I fabricated nothing. I did not say you said that. I said I was told that by - I believe it was the Magister Templi, of a very respected Thelemic order. So, you say those initiates "mean nothing at all"? Hmmm, what's it up to now, so far we see that you are arrogant, presumptuous, illogical, ill-informed and now egotistical and recklessly dismissive.
Selea, either you truly are a "lucky" initiate under the tutelage of one of these mythical Exalted Secret Masters who is giving you personal training (and if so you might actually have the right to pass these judgments on the outer orders) or you are not. If not, you are just blowing a lot of hot air and trash talking the outer orders for whatever reason suits you. But if you are one of these blessed few Chosen Ones fortunate enough to receive personal instruction, you are here and now demonstrating what a total failure their methods can be. Any way you slice it, it doesn't look good for you.

Then "remote viewing" is a part of exploring the astral planes. There are some orders (as the SOL now, after the death of Butler) who prefers to don't use a full conscious transfer of consciousness to do what they have to do, and the "teachings" on that are only later and only if the students want. Sometimes people neither try because for what they want to do it is not either needed.

So what? Of course RV is part of the astral planes, duh. Just more irrelevant obfuscation on your part. And yeah, I remember talking to some of those initiates who asked "so Rudy, explain again how it is you get OBE?... er, I mean... ya know if I ever *want* to give that sort of thing a try... maybe I'll give that a shot some day...." Hahahaha, yeah right! -- the whole time his aura is shot through with green bolts of ENVY!  

For other orders it is different because they use the "planes" in a different manner, so full conscious transfer is needed. The A.'.A.'. is one of them. It also depends on what a magical order wants to accomplish.

Hehheh... you definitely got the shore story down. But Selea, I have already pointed this out for you, what these esoteric orders might really want is totally irrelevant. I asked you to back up your claim that the Body of Light method was a thousand times better. To reply with endless circumlocution about what some irrelevant magick club 'really' wants has nothing to do with it. Just answer the question. But then, at this point I am wondering whether you know the difference between a 'reply' and an 'answer'. People who know the answer will usually respond with the answer. But those who do not know but want to pretend that they know will reply to a word in the sentence of a question and insist they gave an answer. Either they do not know the difference between a reply and an answer or they are purposely deceptive in their response.

But a thing it is sure: a magical order primary function is to learn the control of the astral plane. So if the "orders" you have been and people you have met cannot do it it means that they have learned nothing.

Again, it does not mean that at all. More false logic. And if a magical order's primary function is to learn the control of the astral plane I would not bother wasting my time with such an unimaginative bunch of underachievers.

...they could just look around and try the many other methods you find in the net, included the very easy to adopt sleep ones.

Oh, so now you admit that the Raduga methods are very easy... I thought you said the BoL was a thousand times better than other methods.    Now you say the sleep methods are 'very easy'...
... which is it?

And then you still insist on bringing up these "initiates" as proof of something. First who are these "initiates" and on what "order" they are? There's in that "order" someone that teaches that technique directly, in person? How they do it?

Again you err. I did not insist and I did not present those accounts as "proof". I merely recounted my personal experience among them. These orders are exceptionally secretive. I suspect one reason is to cover the high failure rate among their members. But I admit that is pure speculation at this point. There are good reasons as well.

First you insist that those "initiates" know nothing but then you insist that what they told you it's how things must be because it is how you want them to be. You should make-up your mind a little.

Again you put words in my mouth. I did not insist on any such thing. One way for a failure to feign success is to put false words into the mouth of someone they wish to discredit and then disagree with and disprove something they never said. Yes, I should make up my mind at this point... I conclude at this point that you are totally full of not just yourself but stuff and nonsense as well. Unlike you, I base this on what you have actually said and I have quoted you accurately throughout the course of this discourse. You at least try to quote me -- I give you credit for that. But then you go off on a reply that has nothing to do with the words in the quoted piece.
!?

General people that tries do it without knowing how it works do it as a phasing method, but that's NOT how it works. If you do it that way you just lose time. It can work the same after a while, but there are many better alternatives.

Ohhh? And what alternatives are those?... and how do you know they are better?

Naturally you can either believe that what I'm telling you it is not true. It's perfectly fine, but don't pretend that what those people told you must be the truth instead, just because you want it to be.

I don't believe anyone who makes unsubstantiated claims that are inconsistent with my broad and mature experience. But I can be persuaded. Just put your evidence where your mouth is. I readily admit that I have plenty to learn and I would love to learn from someone with valid, practical knowledge in these matters. But I can be a little short on patience with blowhards and phony pretenders.

Either Crowley said this (if you want to have a "quote" as if that would mean anything):
"The experiment is an easy one; with two pupils only (of some dozens) I have failed, and that completely; with the others only a first experiment is needed."

Well, good for Crowley then. But he is dead and likely no one reading this now was ever taught by the man -- so what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

This is how the method works and how it must be teached and the way it must be adopted. It is a trick. At the time of Crowley with some people it could fail for the way the trick works and the knowledge of the times in those matters this could happen....

ok then, so if Crowley or Bennet were the teacher and we could transport ourselves back to AD1913 or so this method, or "trick" might actually work?

But I suppose either Crowley did made it up and those "initiates" know better, isn't it? Belive what you want, I don't care. I would only like you to be fair therein.

No one has suggested that Crowley made it up. Why would you suppose that? (right off the bat like that?... yours was the man's first mention here... why don't you ask first?)
I am probably more fair than most.

Then what does have "success" rate or either practicality for beginners who knows nothing about it to do with this it is beyond me. Have I ever only once said that the BoL is "superior" on these points? It doesn't seem to me, and in fact I NEVER said it (I said the contrary, in fact). Why you continuosly fabricate things I never said just to try to have a point on something? And then you either try to contradict it as if I was the one saying it. Is this a common behaviour you and others like you have?

Ahh... so here you reveal yourself as so hugely deceptive -- your claim is tantamount to a lie. I quoted you EXACTLY as claiming the BoL was "a thousand times better" and asked you to back it up.

I also paraphrased it as a claim to superiority which it obviously was as part of a separate thread and discussion. I did NOT attriubute that particular choice of words to you personally. What a giant deceiver you are!! For you to pull this line egregious BS out of your sphincter and try to play this game with me you write your own name in the Great Book of Deception Hall of Shame.

Get thee behind me Selea.

And so now they were "casual conversations"? It seemed to me all another thing, in fact:

"If you spend enough time among them and just get to where you can comfortably chat about this and that, occasional comments will drop that reveal just how little progress most of these serious, hardcore would be Magicians are truly making."

"But I spent some time among them and after much circumlocution..."

There's nothing about "casual conversations" in there, it implied all the contrary, in fact.

HAHAHHAHAHAAAAA

Since WHEN! does "comfortably chat" NOT... I repeat NOT qualify as "casual conversations" !!!

What a giant Deceiver you are!

So, you are the type who would twist even the simplest words to turn them completely around!... yeech! Selea... your horns are showing plainly now. Did you think you had half a chance to get away with such blatant abuse of the language?!

Then can you people do me a favor:

IF YOU WANT TO TALK WITH ME ABOUT THINGS THEN WRITE TO ME.

This nonsense of debating about things I've said with others just to try to discredit what I say it's getting tiresome. I didn't either noticed this till now.

Apart that's unpolite, I'm neither one that it is here all day and check everything to see if what I've said has being used to say things completely different.

Selea, relax why dontcha....

We were not discussing you or even the merits of your claim but rather if the statement itself constituted an objective claim whose veracity could be challenged or if it were just a subjective opinion meant to be taken with a grain of salt. It morphed from part of an earlier discussion between me and PR that started on a comment he made earlier about OBE in the realm of magic practice and our ongoing disagreement about what constitutes opinion status in forum discussions and it merged with your claim as an example or case in point sorta thing.
It happens.

You were not treated in rude fashion in any manner whatsoever.

I already explained why that's so and what I meant by it, isn't it? I did go into specifics and practical things, I explained the differences and all.

No you didn't. Unless I missed it in there somewhere -- perhaps you could paste in a couple of these "specifics and practical things"...? I am pretty sure that they aren't there. In fact, in the case of your hand waving at the Middle Pillar, I was the one who posted the link with any sort of practical info.

In fact, it seems the contrary to me because apart ample arguments on ample terms nothing of what you say is concrete.

In this matter, I am the one challenging YOUR claim. I am not the one that needs to be concrete here on this topic, you are. On another thread I made a claim about the historicity of Jesus and I was challenged. I replied with direct quotes from near-contemporary historians to back up my claim. I can and will be concrete when that ball is in my court.

Now, you have made some dubious claims and it is incumbent upon you to back up your claim. So far all you have done is a little hand waving at the subject in addition to repeated efforts to weasel out and play an illogical turnabout hand.

A) Nobody can "teach" you anything. A master can focus you on a path but learning is only done by yourself.

Totally irrelevant observation. I have not rquested that anyone 'teach' anything... only that you back up your claim with something that supports it. I am getting the distinct impression that you do not know how this works.

Btw this is why people as you usually cannot either enter in real orders, and naturally instead of thinking "maybe I've done something wrong" they think "it is all idiocy then"; then they become 80 years old putting down everything they didn't either get and thinking it's everybody elses fault. It's another form of personal commiseration, nothing more.

"they think "it is all idiocy then""  Selea, I do not recall where anyone has said anything like this. What are you talking about? I never said anything close to that. You on the other hand keep using the 'idiot' word on a regular basis.
Not only is this more completely irrelevant obfuscation, it is pure fantasy-land speculation on your part and based on a false assumption. Truth be known... I was 'informed' that in my case the otherwise strict probationary time period would be shortened if I would request such.

B) The OTO has NEVER been a learning order in magical practices. Its function is just to show some specific sexual magick practices, that have little to do with what you are talking about.
[....] As always, you don't either know what you search and then blame external causes.

!! wow! yet another patently false claim....
The O.T.O.'s specific purpose is to secure the Liberty of the Individual and his or her advancement in the Light, Wisdom, Understanding, Knowledge, and Power through Beauty, Courage, and Will.
What do you think it is that I am talking about? I keep repeating for you... you said the body of light method is a thousand times better and I keep asking you to back that up but you keep replying with irrelevant OTO and A.'.A.'. smokescreens.

This has nothing to do with my 'search'. I have said that I asked a simple question about OBE and was told that essentially all initiates learn to go OBE at will. Based on what I've seen, I believe that claim is a gross exaggeration. Selea, please try to reply to what I am actually saying and simply asking and stop replying to your arrogant, presumptuous and condescending opinions on what you fear I am saying.

C) The GD is long lost nowadays,[ ....] There is an "internal", *real* order of the GD, a lieneage started by Regardie, Bennet and Butler, but it has not ties at all with the external and "fake" one, so you can get there only by "luck" (if you want to call that so).

Again, this is completely irrelevant... unless you can be more specific and provide detail about this *real* order...?....

So, no, I'm sorry for you and for your "research", but what you "discovered" is all wrong because it is like you searched for pearls in the mud and then became angry because you did find any.

The "teachers" you are spoking about are in "open" orders. It is obvious that these people are not good; they are there only for the passing of the time, nothing more, and surely not for their "experience".

The only system that works in magic is a system when a teaching is done in a personal matter, with testings in the proceedings along the way, and where the "masters" are those that passed those tests before. A teacher has at most 3 students to care of at once and the pupil knows only of that teacher and s/he is instructed by him/her, in a personal, specific way, depending on the way s/he reacts and his/her personal nature.

So, no, you never met anybody that meant something so don't pretend you know the "truth" of the matter.

Really! And please tell me how it is that you came to be privy to so much personal and intimate detail of my life? (this oughta be good...) 

How is it that you know, "It is obvious that these people are not good"?

"A teacher has at most 3 students to care of at once" -- Have you ever been a student of these unseen teachers in unknown orders?

?

[all]

People you have met, sure.
People as me are more interested in practical applications, not just having the experience, that, for me (and others like me), it means very little by itself.

Well, of course it is people that I have met. How else would I know? Note that I am not just talking about the value of "having the experience" but I am replying to the claim "essentially all Initiates gain the ability to go OBE at will". I pointed out that not only is that not true but it is a gross exaggeration, at best. I observed that not only do most initiates not gain the ability but even some in high office and advanced initiation status will privately admit they have not ever gotten a conscious OBE. (Their ritual test success stemmed more from a "remote viewing" type effort).

If possible I would like to stick to the actual challenges and claims that have been made. For example the claim that the Body of Light method is "1000 times better"; Given that most initiates fail in this method while other methods succeed at a much higher rate, I do not know how you can such a statement. I mean... it is so obviously False!... what gives?

As for the non-debating about these things openly in these sort of forums by experienced "magicians"....

I said nothing about a 'debate' with these would be Magicians. I spoke of casual conversation. And it was not necessarily on an open forum.

Magic forums, then, are just a conglomerate of a lot of the most various and generic arguments, with little of concrete, you will not find anybody "good" in there, if not only for a casuality....Magic has little of talking (if not on practical parameters and only on specific occasions), especially at beginning, so all people you find in those forums are usually of the type I mentioned in the post above.

(my bold)

This is simply not true. Some forums are better than others. And some are not just frequented by serious, capable Magicians but are created and moderated by and maintained by world renowned leaders in the field.
(particularly the Thelemic Orders).

You make it sound like this is the way it's suppose to be. Entertainments are what keeps us distracted from the real world while they rule us as if they are gods.
Things are suppose to be better not worst as we advance in technologies.
Did you know?
1: You can run your car on 100% water.
2: Create water from air.
3: Have free energy/electricity from earth.
many more, but big cooperations don't want us to be free.

Not so much the way it is supposed to be but the way it is to be, inevitably. Because the vast majority of humanity does not even want to know even a little bit of the truth.  Because ... you see ... with truth comes responsibility and responsibility absolutely TERRIFIES most humans.   

Anyone who actually believes you can run your car on 100% water is begging for someone to come along and control their mind... I mean, those who do not bother to control their own minds will find it being controlled by someone else.

Anyone with the ability to post a coherent thought on this forum has the opportunity to train their mind and learn in ways that responsible and motivated souls could only dream of in ages past. But how many will bother to spend even one hour a day on a site like this; http://www.algebasics.com/

and there is little or nothing any big corporation will do to stop you.

The real question is;
Are you ready to grow up?

" Don't do your OBE attempts at night" (bedtime)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iw5r6gPLOU

It is good to watch all of the Lucidology videos. This is a good compilation of the links;
http://www.myspace.com/nowiam/blog/538605584

also check out obe4u.com -- read the free ebook and watch all the free videos.

Waste your time on anything else at your own disgression. 

Any advice on getting through this stage?

I strongly recommend reading this free ebook and watching the videos at this site.

http://school.obe4u.com/

Agreed, but we can do much better.

Yes, by doing more of what we know works; we need to move ever closer to even more free market capitalism. No more of this half baked capitalism, no-sir-ee! We need to stop this wave of Socialist insanity sweeping the West and implement a more Spiritual society that respects the individual, free choice, etc.

Marxism is a big disaster. Socialism is a small disaster. Any system that depends on tyranny and theft to maintain, is obviously a bad choice. The non-stop lies from the Socialists is such an obvious bad joke on Conscious elements of humanity.

It's not about whose music is better.

Right. That's not what my challenge was about. I meant that I doubt one could find better music to reflect the enlightened consciousness. I am serious. You can check out a "Magic Flute" video at the library with subtitles in your own language and see what I mean. (It is rumored that the Freemasons killed Mozart for breaking his Oath and revealing Temple Secrets  and his untimely death fits).
The Ingmar Bergman version is shortened so might be best for those new to opera.

If you need to take general anesthetics to get to sleep I wouldn't put you in with the most enlightened people on the planet.

Exactly, and the plastic surgery, cosmetic work, etc. -- hardly a portrait of a "balanced" personality. But it is nice that so many people can look past his weirdness and just enjoy good music. His lyrics and sound were more uplifting than so much of the negative noise passed off as 'music' sometimes.

He also talked about improving the world, something I hear from very few people these days.

And he did not just 'talk' about it but it appears that he actually took action that brought joy into few peoples troubled lives. So many people talk about improving the world but really do nothing. They just complain. And they pretend to be better people by forcing other people around them to fork over cash to pay for some bubble-headed project that really doesn't help much of anything and often makes things worse.

Mozart may have been a skosh closer;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y38pv4tqISw&feature=related

or this ; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nE7SbiKzDzE&NR=1&feature=fvwp


That is the final scene but the entire opera is well worth the effort to sit through.

It begins like this;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPwCCGogdBE

I defy you to find better!

More like the guy riding around the property in his golf cart shouting, "Hey you dang woodchucks, quit chuckin' my wood!".   

I just got done stacking over two cords of my wood yesterday. Double thick stack this time, so the bears won't knock it over (hope springs eternal).

The kids think I'm pretty cool. Last snowstorm they came around and I paid them to shovel the driveway and deck. They shoveled for ten minutes and then spent a half hour using the shovels as sleds to ride down the hill above my house. I paid 'em anyways....