Messages

Hello T.L.!

Thanks for your reply.

quote:if you are talking about being conscious in nrem sleep and you are in complete darkness and you notice you cant see and you cant perceive any things of yourself like a body or whatever, this is what happens to me

I'm confused, because your latest post seems to contradict the above sentence:

quote:Actually I gain physical body awareness in nrem right off the bat, before I do anything.

Before what? The spinning for example? Can you explain it more fully?

quote:...if you pay attention to the physical body awareness you will gain physical feeling of the body instead of just being aware of the position you will start to gain the feeling of numbness go beyond that and you will feel your body physically and it is awaken from that point on. That is why treading carefully is what I do...

We can't disregard the strong input come from the physical body at times when there is not enough stimuli from an independent source. Where does your attention focused on to stabilize NREM?

quote:I think its not a good idea to toss everything into categories, without keeping in mind there are still unknowns out there.

Totally agreed. But unfortunately, all we do is making categories then put things into them. For example, considering the state of spinning, we have been discussing it as NREM sleep all along, without having the knowledge of its exact nature.

quote:I didnt want to post my article on a regular forum, I wanted to post it in forums like this as an article and not an any active topic.

The damage is already done. Sorry for that. I hope people will find this thread useful.

quote:Reemy has the right idea, its a good attitude to have. Have no pre-conceived notion as to what will happen, and not take guesses as to what it is, just try and be enthusiastic then experience for ones self.

Yes, thats the way it is. Reemy should have no preconceptions because he have not experienced this state before. I have been experiencing similar states for years, so I'm able to make generalisations based on the patterns I've observed. Moreover, my duty is to have some conceptions about all of this.

However, I still not able to dream like you do, so I try to mimic your method the best I can. If someone is able to understand the significance of this method, you should be one of them, because you know that years can be spared by this method alone.

So, I would like you to describe your sleep architecture when doing this method, and your regular sleep habits if you have any.

Thanks again,

>>> upstream

T.L.

quote:Now if you are talking about being conscious in nrem sleep and you are in complete darkness and you notice you cant see and you cant perceive any things of yourself like a body or whatever, this is what happens to me.

I just understand, that you spin not in your bed, but in the void, before regain awareness of your sleeping body. As LaBerge would say, you have an "unusually active REM system." The non-stop dreaming method is perfectly suit for you.

People lucky enough to fall into this category may find this method extremely useful. Unfortunately, I'm not belong to those lucky ones. It seems to me that my brain is unable to stay in dream lands for more than I've been experienced so far.

from http://www.lucidity.com/EWLD6.txt

PREVENTING PREMATURE AWAKENING

Informally experimenting in their beds at home, lucid dreamers have discovered various ways of remaining in the dream state when threatened by early awakening. All the techniques involve some form of dream action which is carried out as soon as the visual part of the dream begins to fade. Linda Magallon, editor and publisher of the Dream Network Bulletin, and an intrepid explorer of lucid dreams, has described how she prevents herself from waking up by concentrating on the senses other than vision, such as hearing and touch. She reports that all of the following activities have successfully prevented awakenings from visually faded dreams: listening to voices, music, or her breathing; beginning or continuing a conversation; rubbing or opening her (dream) eyes; touching her dream hands and face; touching objects such as a pair of glasses, a hair brush, or the edge of mirror; being touched; and flying. [1] These activities all have something in common with the Spinning Technique described below. They are based on the idea of loading the perceptual system so it cannot change its focus from the dream world to the waking world. As long as you are actively and perceptually engaged with the dream world, you are less likely to make the transition to the waking state. Magallon may be a dreamer with an unusually active REM system; it may be that she has little trouble staying asleep once she is in REM. However, many others are light sleepers who find it difficult to remain in lucid dreams for long periods of time. These people need more powerful techniques to help them stay in their lucid dreams.


from http://www.consciousdreaming.com/lucid-dreaming/lucid-dream-tips.htm

I have also found that one of the most common things that ends lucid dreams is having your visuals go out on you. You could accidentally fly into a wall or building or sometimes just be going too fast for the dreamscape to remain stable. As a result, you will not be able to see anymore. Sometimes, it happens spontaneously especially if your dreamscape is n'o stable. If your visuals do go out on you, then you often will find yourself in a black void much like a cave or a womb. If you find that you have lost your visuals, you may verbally intend more visuals to appear which sometimes works or you can just wait it out. Just DON'T GIVE UP AND DECIDE TO WAKE UP! Hold onto your lucidity and stare into the blackness. Eventually, a whole new dreamscape will appear. Once the dreamscape appears you will already be standing in it and you will be lucid or sometimes you may even have to consciously step into the dreamscape.

This technique has helped me on countless occasions. It has allowed me to reenter new LDs sometimes over and over again whenever my visuals "blow out". This method of waiting it in "Limbo-Land" for new visuals to appear will really come in handy once you become better acquainted with the dream realm. You can use this visionless void to prolong your lucidity exploring as long as you do not wake up from the dream.. I usually find that I can successfully use this reentry technique around seven times or more in one night. Depending on how long the dream is and how well I am maintaining my lucidity, I usually wake myself from the LD after the seventh reentry from Limbo-Land. I find that any more than seven reentries and I may slip back into a nonlucid dream unintentionally fogging my overall dream recall.


from http://www.consciousdreaming.com/lucid-dreaming/astral-projection-and-out-of-body-experiences.htm

I get to a point where I am SO lucid that I can just intend or verbally command or even just think "FIND THE PHYSICAL BODY BUT DON'T GET TRAPPED INTO IT. PREPARE FOR AN OUT OF BODY EXPERIENCE!!!" After practicing this for a while, I don't have to say the whole thing anymore, but it helped in the beginning. Now, I can just get to a sufficiently heightened level of lucidity and then just verbally say "IT'S TIME FOR AN O.B.E.!!"

If successful at this point, I'll be more conscious of my actual body which before hand I'm not at all. Before I'm more in tune with my dreambody if any body at all, whereas now I'm conscious of my physical yetstill in an altered state of mind. It's like the interim phase between a series of lucid dreams where there are no visuals, you're conscious you're dreaming and of your body lying in bed but you just wait it out in the black void until some visuals start to form into a new dreamscape which you enter into the next lucid dream cycle.

Well I am digressing, it seems almost like a slight bilocation of awareness, being aware you're observing this from somewhere/place beyond ties of the body and yet you're also slightly conscious of feeling your body but in a strange loose energetic way. So if I can get to this point, I will wind up being in a state of bilocation and my physical body will be in the vibrational state.

I'm sure you aware of Cube's posts on breathing & paralysis, but perhaps others aren't. We have to build up a reference system by links.

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12387

Breathing up the consciousness to a point just above the head could help.

For me, it's not so easy, it's require FULL awareness.

from Bird's Lucid Dreaming Website:

http://www.consciousdreaming.com/lucid-dreaming/astral-projection-and-out-of-body-experiences.htm

myself @ cezyl.com (thakns for the edit, Cezyl!)

http://cezyl.com/OBEs/upstream.htm

Hello, BlackBox

quote:...last night after reading TL's post, it didn't really speak about breathing-regulation, so I didn't do it, and nothing particularly evident occured last night because of it.

You couldn't get started non-stop dreaming at regular bed-time, because your brain needs deep sleep. To be successfull with this method, interrupting your sleep at the proper stage is absolute necessary, which is after app. 4.5-6h. Also, it seems to me that more than one hour wakefulness is very beneficial before the attempt. The following should be regarded as side-note on trance, hopefully answer of your questions, so it is not connected to the method we discussed with T.L.

quote:So I guess breathing-regulation is necessary for the first few stages...

For me, absolutely. Perhaps breath-regulation is more important than relaxation, because proper breathing even will result in deep relaxation without soing anything else. The activity of neurons associated with breathing spread from the medulla to the entire brain serving a phasic stimulation. To prove that, you can observe the birth of spontan toughts in deep silence. The possibility of spontan toughts breaking into your consciousness will increase with every breath you take in.

quote:By your post, I think it's clear I'm doing some things wrong.

You couldn't know that by a post. Don't change your proved methods, just try and incorporate new ideas.

quote:

quote:To reach that state, you should deepen your sleep by circulating etheric substance around you and putting pressure on your epiphysis (?).

epiphysis? Even from the online definition, I'm not sure how I can focus pressure on it. Can you elaborate? Actually, could you elaborate a little more on this entire sentence?

The state I was talking about is in which you're able to spin your double. After you could spin it separation is very easy.

You can get this separational state from moderate trance. You can reach moderate trance by firmly affirm yourself just before regular bedtime to don't move after you'll wake up on your back. If you can't get asleep on your back, interrupt your sleep to do that. Also, you can reach deeper states by self-induced trance preferably after ~10h wakefulness, app. 3-4 hours before regular bedtime.

Basically, in this "moderate trance state" you feel yourself being reduced into your head. Ideally, you just awakened from uncosciousness so superfluous sleep pressure is reduced by deep sleep. This approach serve as a puffer. Your body is deeply relaxed, ther are no wandering tension, itch or any distraction. Your mind is resonably clear, but if you would turn on your side, you'll asleep whitin seconds. You could feel a deep urge to move thinking you've failed. Now, don't move at all.

From this state you're able to reach a deeper one by emptiing your mind. Focusing on your breathing process and counting breaths to a treshold you've decided before will help. This is the last stage before separation. You have to put the pressure on and it will zap you into the preseparational stage.

quote:Sometimes I am compelled to push my eyes upwards intensely. This creates pressure inside my head, I would suppose.

That's it. If you breath out at the same time (like the corpse of someone who just died), you could feel a slipping sensation, like zooming inward. It is like you're shrinking inside, or collect your consciousness into a point located in your head. Sometimes you'll feel moving upward to a point above your head accompained by pressures in your groin area and in your head at the same time.

Looking upward will help. It's interest to note, that in deep sleep the eyeballs are turn upwards. I only hypothesize that epiphysis is the point you make the pressure on by modulating the photon field of the third verticle by thalamocortical feedback. An interesting article: http://light.simanonok.com/

In most cases you should apply many pressure in row. You may feel your blood pressure and hearth rate increasing at each pressure you make, and some hindrance or inability to it without rest. You have to rest inbetween them - an appropriate time to focusing on breath and doing the vortex.

quote:Should I imagine the energy circulating from above towards my feet and from below towards my head?

I don't know. Perhaps it's a good idea. However, I observed that paralysis can be broke by lowering the focus on your body. By this time the projection of the center of your consciousness should above the diaphragm. I suggest you imagine yourself in a tornado with epicenter at the height of your neck.

quote:Feel it, like the NEW technique, or visualize, or both?

Vortex is like imagination, spinning is real. You'll see, that's not a clear and cut state, because by that your brain-bound consciousness is reached its limit, the haziest state you're able to operate in being still bounded by your brain. The information representing your personality is ready to spead onto your bioplasmic field. If you suceeded, your awareness become crystal clear again, and you're able to separate.

BlackBox, I'll try to reply today, GMT.

Hello T.L.!

quote:I spin my consciousness when in nrem sleep, so the point I was making was to get to nrem sleep before spinning....

Yes, of course. We spin our consciousnes in NREM sleep (between REM-episodes). I hope people who read this will understand the differencies between "spinning in dream" (popularized by LaBerge) and "spinning in the bed" without visuals. However, you can make a seameless spinning of the two types by a weird manoeuvre designed to download astral memories. Just read my writings @ http://www.cezyl.com/OBEs/upstream.htm, thanks for the edit, Cezyl.

quote:I spin my consciousness when in nrem sleep, so the point I was making was to get to nrem sleep before spinning and at least sustain it for a few seconds, to stabalize it so you wont wake up will trying to spin your consciousness.

It makes sense for me, that first I have to stabilize NREM-sleep and spinning afterwards. But how you I suppose to stabilize superficial NREM sleep when I find myself wild awake and nothing to spin? Don't forget to answer this question.

Anyway, our techniques are obviously not the same, so we can learn from each other. The main differencies are summarised below:

1. You're able to dream consciously for 5+ hours / I'm only able to do it for 1-3 hour
2. You don't force anything to happen / I desperately hold on to the last scene then force separation after the exteriorised state collapsed
3. You spin until a dream reconstruct itself / In 90% of the cases I spin out of alingment or detach my double, or in 10% I'll pretend myself back to the last environment I've seen

I'm aware of 4 types of spinning: 1. liquid-like dense movement of vortex around my body but no sense of spinning double; 2. sensing two body at the same time: the laying physical one and a spinning subtle one; 3. sense of abrupt ~180-degrees spinning motions in one direction again and again to detach the double; 4. sensing the spinning body without the lying physical

Because you're spinning is only for reenter dreaming, you should be more talented in it than me. Extrapolated from my experiences dreaming for 5 hours required app. 10-50 reconstruction. It seems you're able to spin after each REM-sleep you spent conscious. Is it true in your case? Can you describe in the above categories how you do that?

quote:Well once again the point is to go about it easily and not force anything in this state by will, you want it to fade naturally like it would normally.

As I said before, this is not my case. I often feel short-term pull back at the first 1-2 separation, then reseparations become more and more easily accomplished as my consciousness shift away from the etheric double. I gave a brief description of this process @ http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12330&whichpage=2, last post 2nd point.

Without deliberate effort to get back to RTZ, the spectrum of projection will narrow around F22 by each of reseparation. After 2-4 episodes the reseparation process become more symbolic, and I'll be able to phase back the collapsed dream state without detach any subtle body. Also, the episodes will stabilize and tend to become longer, presumably because sleep pressure has been increased by elongated REM-sleep. After 5-10 reseparations energy to sustain regular dreams getting very low. Problems with vision, especially with brightness sign that game is almost over. I feel literally tired myself in my dream body. If I'm unable to break out from the hallucinations as soon as possible and shutting down my tired brain by projecting far above the RTZ I will lost my consciousness in the next interseparational stage.

quote:do you mean you kept consciousness even after the dream was completely faded, or you lost it after it faded but kept it during the fading?

There is no lapse in my consciousness at all. It's a seameless process. How, otherwise, would it be possible to doing elaborate manoveurs required for reseparation / dream reconstruction?  I have to note that real astral projetions don't fade completely, there is always a residual awareness of the "place" before you recollect your consciousness in your projector body by spinning.

Your description about the sense of electrocution was good enough indeed, but I still haven't any idea what you mean. I hope your description open the way to perceive it for myself. Thanks.

Don't worry, I do the version of 2-3h dreaming by years without getting more aberration I already have. Can you describe the feelings you get after waking up from more than 3 hours of dreaming?

About interpretation. You have no ways other than interpret your experiences, otherwise no progress is possible. Actually, our mind build to do that automaticly to save us from the pressure of unknown. What you have described in your 2nd article is interpretation. You assume, that people of that type dream should act like they did and indeed they satisfied your belief accordingly. The only possibility is to update our belief system on fly, keeping it as plastic as possible.

quote:I appreciate you mapping the whole thing out and taking the time to post the graphs, and compare them.

I've hoped you will like it. I wrote it, because most people need explanations to belief in an impossible practice. Also, I really want to belive your epic dreaming. Please, convice me.

quote:before you think they are completely dreams you should try to go through several of these environments in one attempt and then see exactly how it feels and how real it all really seems.

To simply put, they seems not real at all times. They are dozens of dreaming/projecting. I have notes from app. 500 AP/OBE, half of them is launched from states we discussed so far. I'm glad to report, that there are states more real than I ever hoped.

It's obviously not my idea - unfortunetly. But if it works, our duty to popularize it.

quote:we're seeing the effects of a mirror and it's similar to how in dreams it's easy to get numbers out of order

I don't understand you at all, but I'll make a visit to that thread.

quote:Recently in meditation I've become aware of a cloud of awareness that forms over me and I'm going to try your spinning idea and spin the cloud around to see what happens.

I hope it's clear for you, that the rotation of etheric double you try to accomplish (good luck and don't forget to report your experiences) is not the same with laying back in a dream in the opposite direction of your sleeping body (it's still my idea...for a while).

We already talked a lot about the possibilities of direct double rotation in this thread, but I have only mentioned this inner rotation in order to superstabilize dreaming from inside (see the last post on the 2nd page).

And thanks for the info about Stuart Wilde. Is he the mouse flying around in that Celine Dion's clip? I'll check him out as soon as possible.

BlackBox...

quote:If you are in a typical 'trance-relaxed-state' (farthest I've gone), perhaps with moderate vibrations sweeping through your body, what effect does the spinning visualization have?

It depends on what you call typical trance-relaxed-state. I suspect it is not enough - your body must be asleep. You'll may loose your consciousness before you hit the sufficient stage to spin then found yourself wide awake again. All the sleepiness of the stage#2 brain-bound consciousness will be gone.

To reach that state, you should deepen your sleep by circulating etheric substance around you and putting pressure on your epiphysis (?).

First, move your attention to the periphery of your energy body and try to circulate something gaseous matter around you. Gradually, move the focus closer to your body and accelerate the spin of the vortex around the height of your neck. Repeat the sweep many times. This practice will further relax you by sucking bioplasm out of your muscles. In this stage there is no double to spin.

To detach the double you have to be asleep. To do that, you should put a "pressure" inside your head while you breath out inertly after a deep intake and short holding of breath. You should do it for many times in row with rests and/or vortex-like circulation inbetween them.

I suppose the pressure will force the epiphysis to release its melatonin pool which will knock you out, by forcing stage#3 sleep. At that point brain-bound consciousness can't be kept and your field of consciousness forced to detach being interpreted as a double.

[image]http://www.ladonia.net/herald/pict/06_maestro-takes-a-bow.jpg[/image]

from
http://www.astralframeworks.com/metrics.html

quote:Your body doesn't have to be completely asleep for you to try out this technique but you want to be in Phase 3 as it may help trigger an astral projection, and the techniques in this phase may come in handy. Ideally, you want to be in a very relaxed state, so at least be at Phase 3 Round 1 before you begin. So anyway here's the trick:

Lying down position: With your eyes closed you're going to imagine your head is where your feet are and your feet are where your head is. Try this by not trying to bend your mind but by bending your surroundings. For example, if the bedroom door is over to your left while your lying down, then imagine it is over to your right. If it's down towards the direction of your feet imagine its now up behind your head. Even for non visual people this trick is extremely easy, but if you can't feel this, then simply open your eyes, get some bearings, and then flip position and see the room for that angle, and then flip back. Remember, you're simply shifting your conscious perception of where you head is relative to your feet, but flipping your spatial perception of the room.

Sitting position: With your eyes closed you're going to imagine that you're facing the opposite direction so that you now looking out the back of your head. Again, the trick is to imagine the room around you changing, such as the door to the bedroom being on the lefthand-side of your body instead of the righthand-side. If you have trouble visualising this then have a look at the room with your eyes open and from both positions then close your eyes and imagine you're in the opposite position.

Once you've convinced yourself that everything has really flipped where going to take this one step further and shift your concsiousness out of your body.

Also, the method, which is basically counting breaths is worth a check. I use similar - but far less sofisticated - method to let started my OBEs.

Cube, I'm sad to report that we're not the Father of Rotation.

Great material, thanks T. L.

If we discuss the same method, the main point is to being able to maintain lucid dreaming for hours through brief, intermittent NREM-sleep episodes of stage #2 sleep. The purpose of this practice is to (1) accumulate experiences of conscious dream states within as little time as possible, (2) to get a more plastic consciousness and being able to enter dreams at will.

This is an alternative for the trance method, because dreams can be used as springboard for real-time zone OBEs without etheric separation.

Here are some notes I had while reading your articles, T. L.:

#1.

quote:I noticed a few guys looking at a girl. I realized there were almost all guys with only a few girls. So I said "they need more women"

I like your attitude.


#2.

quote:What I accomplished was lucid dreaming about 3 hours non stop by will alone. It was so easy I could of done it for eight hours easily. No lapse in consciousness between dreams.

 Drive for deep sleep is sated, so wakefulness can be substitued by REM-sleep for hours. However, I'm unable to do that for more than 2-3 hours. Have you ever experienced 9 hours non-stop dreaming or you suppose you can do that?

Dreaming require more brain activity than wakefulness, so "sleep pressure" (NREM-sleep activity between REM-sleep episodes) will increase rapidly - threatening consciousness.

Structure of sleep-cycles:
[image]http://www.tc.gc.ca/tdc/publication/tp13960e/images/figure4.jpg[/image]


Idealised hypogram of a typical night:



As the nightly sleep progress, role of stage #3 & #4 sleep decrease.



A gentle introduction to sleep states & architecture:
http://www.holistic-online.com/Remedies/Sleep/sleep_stages-1-4NREM.htm
http://www.resmed.com.au/rc1006377917751.html


#3.
Your stage observations are very accurate and can be connected to those, which are used in sleep physiology.

The stage what you call "stage 3" is seem to identical to the sleep stage #2 of sleep physiology - this departure can be applied to all stage definitions.

As sleep progress from stage#1 to stage#4, cells in the cortex will start to fire more in sync causing EEG waveforms with greater amplitudos and shorter frequencies:

[image]http://classes.kumc.edu/cahe/respcared/cybercas/sleepapnea/osaelec.jpg[/image]

As you can see, the EEG during REM sleep is very similar to the waking EEG.

EEG is like observing a city by hearing, so they are lot's of differences between the two states, however they are more similarities between REM and waking than between REM and NREM sleep.

Wakefulness can be followed by REM at sleep onset (SOREM), but this rare, rather pathological (or intentional) in nature.

In fact, if need for deep sleep is reduced below a treshold, you're able to substitue very easily wakefulness with REM-sleep after awakening a dream.


#4.

quote:if you are 1/2 tired and 1/2 awake it will be just right and easy to do.

Yes, that's the way it is. The best architecture is 4.5/3h in my case.

Without deliberate pre-blancing of REM/stage#2 sleep by interrupting the sleep at the proper stage epic dreaming is something very difficult to accomplish. Not enough "sleep pressure" will result in premature awakening, while too much sleep pressure will cause long NREM sleep between dream-episodes and brain-bound consciousness required for this method can't be kept.

Because full consciousness can't be kept below stage#2 sleep, the consciousness field forced to dissociate from the brain by an etheric OBE accompaied by heavy vibrations. (I suppose that vibrations are the subjective feeling of synchronised activity in the somatosensory cortex.)

To reanimate the body in a controlled manner at inappropriote times from "outside" is almost as difficult as projecting from wakelfulness at intent.

Again, this method is designed for epic lucid dreaming.


#5.

quote:Even thought I was not in a dream I could spin around. It was more like I was spinning my awareness but when I spun I could feely myself spinning. I had no pre-conceived idea aslo what if anything would happen by doing this. To my surprise while I was spinning a shard appeard, it was a fragment like a really thin but long piece of a picture, a long rectangle with very small width. The more I spun the more shards appeared, connecting to previous shards. I could see a picture forming before my own eyes, a picture I was not making. I was only spinning.

Spinning is a great method to avoid wakefulness. As far as I know, the direction of the spinning is not important, or at least, there is no significant difference in effect between spinning clockwise or anticlockwise.

Alternating the direction of spinning sometimes can help to detach the dream body more easily. Spinning to the point when the dream reconstruct itself around the body is new method for me. After my dream body felt loosen, I use the feelings of spinning out or standing up all the time.


#6.
Sometimes it's more easy to stabilize the collapsed dream rather than allow the awareness of the sumberling body to emerge. It can be accomplished by grabbing any dream objects and rubbing it vigorously (or just pretending it). You could refocus the dream after awakening too. See my post @ http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12525

Nonetheless, the most important thing to do is: (1) trying to see a close object as it would be behind some kind of darkness or as it would be seen through dark-lensed glasses or the eyelids; and (2) at the same time trying to get a good "feeling" of the dream-environment around you by pretending that you're still dreaming albeit being unable to see.


#7.

quote:Now once it starts to fade out keep sayihng to yourself "ok the dream is fading" and note the things that are disappearing "there goes the wall, the white wall"..etc. This keeps your awareness/consciousness going while the dream fades and prevents it from being swept away as well.

I'm not sure about the internal dialogue thing. In fact, if not enough sleep pressure to avoid waking up, too much thinking in the fade-out stage will awake you before spinning has any effect.

My consciousness remain intact and continous all the time as I fading out - even without any internal dialogue.

However, supressing the internal dialogue in dreaming even can be dangerous, because it will lower brain activity.

I tend to supress dialogue only to temper the over-interpretation of possibly energetic perceptions when trying to hit the AP stage(albeit short commands are still required to do that).


#8.

quote:After all is said and done you will be by yourself in the blackness. Your body awareness will kick in and you will feel the vibrations. This state once again is normal non rem, non dreaming sleep only you managed to smuggle your consciousness with you.

Vibrations are felt only in stage#4 (stage#3?). If there is not enough sleep pressure, fading of the dream will be followed by more superficial sleeping without any vibrations and complete awakening will become almost inevitable.

quote:Another thing is dont use headphones or listen to hemi-sync audio while trying my methods in this article and dont use ear plugs as you will miss natural sounds that occur in your room or house or outside that might trigger the electrocution sensation that helps in the whole process I explained here.

I have no idea what you meant by electrocution. Can you describe this state and the associated feelings? My signs: fluctuation of the internal and external noises below T=2 sec (external noises fade out, internal noise/humming fade in and burst into brief, hallucnated noises, words). Again, this require moderate sleep pressure.


#9.

quote:While some may devise ways of control in the lucid dreams that result in a longer lucid dream, they never once thought they have another option. They think the lengths of their lucid dreams are only limited to the lengths of their rem sleep cycles. They think that when a rem cycle ends it is the end of their lucid dream and when the dream fades away their consciousness is swept away also. While the last statement is true it doesnt mean there arent other options.

You may ask "why if what you say is true and it works, are you taking your time to tell others rather than keeping this to yourself?" I can tell you its not to profit heh. Well the reason is because I am not selfish what so ever. I iwsh to help others and by doing so maybe it will result in more research to be done on aspects of sleep and other experiences as well, such as astral projection. I want others to have access to their spiritual selves. When one hears spiritual they think of religion. Those two have nothing in common.

So true.

This method is very important, many people should practice it. Also, I would like encourage all of you who understand the significance of this method, to make links to this page when it possible. Thanks.


Again, my questions are:
1. Have you ever experienced more than 3 hours dreaming or you just suppose we can do that?
2. Do you do something with your attention to trigger the dream-reconstruction? Looking upward or something?
3. What's this noise-induced electrocution all about? Can you elaborate your description?


Thanks for your reply:

[image]http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aso/databank/entries/images/b5penf01tg01.jpeg[/image]

>>> upstream

When you just had waked up from a dream try to feel yourself rubbing a wall from the dream or a wall in your home outside of your bedroom. You should substitue the feeling of your sumberling body with your phantom beside the wall, by vigorously rubbing and palpating the wall and other surfaces on your way to a point when you start to wonder, perhaps it's more than just pretending. Now you can turn your vision on by simply focusing on your palm as if you would try to see it through your closed eyelids. Move your palm just before your eyes continously focusing on it until its become visible - first like a yellow-whiteish blob, then followed by the room itself within couple of seconds. Anchor yourself to the dream by grabbing objects around you then you're ready to go.

is it for sure? hmm...
thx

Life is beautiful as it is, no matter where you are, what you do. I'm sorry for dredging up old memories, Nay (it should have been terrific for you), but suffering is part of life too.

quote:I'm a victim of childhood abuse from a older brother whom just looooooved to sit on my head and fart away..eww-ww-ww-ww

Hm...Actually, this was one of our favorite games to play with my cat. He was a very sly and gifted farter (RIP, Juno). We used to fart each other from the day when he attacked me first. Actually, he stated it.

We were just laying in bed watching silly TV programs then all of sudden, he signed to me from beneath the blanket to check him out. I lifted the blanket up unseeingly. His fart hit me in face with great force, but I have had enough time to see his pleased face in the darkness. He was very sly as I said before.

Feel free to use my example to frighten your kids with, Nay.

And of course, my little side note on farting wasn't an offend to Brim at all, whom personality and knowledge is still respected. This response was triggered by the word 'breathing' and primarily serve the purpose of my own entertainment.

>>> upstream



"Life is for learning, death is for remembering."
(15 year old Florian's answer to the question, 'What is the meaning of life?')

Hm...Well.. Anyway, how old are you? Dosn't matter. Ok... Well...When a man and a woman get married and want to have a baby the man puts a seed from his willy in the lady's tummy and a baby grows.

and farting...

Actually, I have mastered it. I'm able to fart at will by sucking air into my rectum. Unfortunately, a specific version of karnapidasana is required to do that, but you know...perfection is only matter of time.

This picture show my volunteers practicing the art of fart to complete their lifes:

[image]http://www.yogaisyouth.com/galleries/sf2002guruji/images/karnapidasana.jpg[/image]

Some essential facts on the process & its purpose:

http://www.heptune.com/farts.html

Questions you'll get answers to:

- Why are stinky farts generally warmer and quieter than regular farts?
- Do even movie stars fart?
- Do men's farts smell worse than women's farts?
- How long would it be possible to not fart?
- Do fish fart?
- Is it true that cow farts contribute to global warming?
- Is it possible to get stoned after inhaling two or three farts in a row?
- If you fart in the bathtub, is the water polluted and should you refill the tub?
- Is it common for people to enjoy smelling their own farts?
- Why do farts seem to follow the farter?
- What would happen if someone farted on Venus?
- If you were in space without a suit, would a fart have the energy to propel you forward?
- Where does the word "fart" come from?
- When it is cold outside and you fart, can you see it like you can see your breath?

and many more...

@ http://www.heptune.com/farts.html

If I look at my palm just before I hit a wall, I can temper the shock of impact. If I don't focus on my palm at the moment when brief darkeness fall on me inside the wall, I can easily black-out or my vision will become blurry at the other side. This is dangerous because in my case, absence of proper vision may cause the proejction to collapse in seconds and I'll have to detach my subtle body again.

The "astral wind" is my subconscious being set before I started to move to my destination, or it can be some external force grabbing me at the height of my stomach. If the wall I drawn through is symbolic (wall that separate two state not connected by 3D structures or in the RTZ), the practice with my palm is not important. If the walls are "real", (they build 3D physical or astral structures), focusing on my palm will help me to keep the dream as I fly through them.

Travelling with the "wind" has three stages: undocking, transferring, redocking. The docking processes are most conspicuous at times when I start the "autopilot" from a building. At first, my "density" have to decrease in order to become able to get through the walls. Just before this moment, it seems to me that I become invisible for the dream people. The redocking process is similar to the undocking process, but will occur in reverse order. The transferring stage is various, mostly takes place above a surreal landscape.

If I'm walk inside a wall focusing on my palm, I can explore the dark space "inside." If the wall is entirely hallucinated (a regular dream object), I would find myself inside a tight, body sized cave, connected to the external space by a pipe-like structure. If my state is just above the RTZ, the walls acts like honey. In the RTZ the walls felt like cold water and gently vibrating from inside.

If the wall I'm inside is not a physical wall (like in RTZ-OBEs) nor a hallucinated/dream one (like in LDs), but a wall from the "lower astral," I'll found myself in a space similar to the "3D-void." A little further from here and now, the space behind the walls will turn into an enormous, surreal space. I can walk directly into this space through the wall of my astral bedroom. By doing this, there will be a great chance to found myself being attacked or noticed by weird things.

In the normal environment of our lucid dreams/astral projections we may not perceive these entities, because our sensory system will interpret they essence in pictures we accustomed to, for instance weird peoples, frightful animals and moving objects. But one thing is common in these enveloping pictures: they radiate some kind of elecricity and fear. By walking into a wall in the lower astral we don't change our state of our energy body, but we'll force ourself to build a new interpretatory system. Until it's not constructed, the palm could serve as basis to hinder the sensory collapsus by keeping together the shematas of the old interpretatory system.

Please, no moralising. I'm tired to that yack-yack. Ethics you are used to talking about is a human construct. Real ethics is comes from inside and can't be taught.

Roundabout reasoning about ethics with people who can't be judged by their actions only by their words is simply waste of time.

>>> upstream



We are not pedophile, Satyananda, just impatient.

It sounds like a great idea !!

I have to try it for myself. Can it help for remembering regular dreams too? What about the other members of the series?

thanks

>>> usptream

I'm interested in it, too. In my country (which is not WS) we have a great old-school (I mean etheric) radio, playing classical music non stop. I making records by TotalRecorder Pro and using P2P client rmDC++ to download you know...the greatest music ever composed.

This is exactly what I believe.

quote:Are you saying that I turn a dream into a lucid dream and the use that to go into an OBE?

Not exactly. The main point is to stabilize the actual LD/OBE/AP and extend it for - possible - hours.

quote:What I really want to do is learn to project straight from a waking state, which is why I'm finding the remembering the feeling right before an OBE is important.

I'm a sleep biologist. It seem to me, that dreams are the launch pad for repeatable, direct out of body experiences, because the ultradian process underlying regular dreaming will emerge in every 90 minutes and dreaming is very similar to wakefulness. As opposite, "sleep pressure" (required for stable trance) increase gradually by wakefulness and very different from it.

The dreaming brain forced to shut down "internally" when you project your consciousness far away from the RTZ. The result is an "astral projection." Also, dreams can be used for etheric OBE by special attention driving.



___________________________

Perhaps its not too late to make definitions I forget before, Wisp.

By rotation I meant circular movements resembling to those what a spike of a compass does. The double "rotate" on the axis of silver cord moving on a vertical plane parallel with the body axis.



By spinning/vortex I mean an another type of circular movements (no picture) perpendicular to the rotation, so the double "spin" like a log in water. This is a standard movement to generate and detach the double.

Hm...what do you mean by "picturing the triangle?"

I see your point and hope you're right. However, as I know, the "etheric brain" is the mind itself. Perhaps it's only a question of definitions...

Anyway, the etheric body is a real time system, so has their own limitation too, similar to the brain. By "leaving the brain", some neural processes indeed are eliminated from the equation, but only substitued by the almost real time recombination of ionic structures of the etheric body. A link to a very interesting article will elaborate this midway perspective:

http://www.vxm.com/21R.7.html

But consider the endless possibilities of the deep astral! We can live thousands of years (and we do it actually in other reality systems) while the little arrow of the hour beside the bed don't move even a second. Because of the limited speed of any RTZ and RTZ-bound system, this enormous information can't be downloaded to and accessed by our awake consciousness - even not via the "etheric body."

According to Seth, we can get any information from the universe we're capable to handle (and believing to), but we're hoplessly bounded by time.