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The question if OBE happen in the brain or outside the body is also very poorly investigated, nor from official labs nor from obeing people all over the word. I can't understand this, since this question is extremly important for various reasons. I actually plan to post an essay why this question is probaly the most important of all.

Are my questions too bad or to good?

Anyone?

charlamarstrus

I would definitly consider this a lucid dream. when you are dreaming and you become aware of it, thats basically what is called a lucid dream. A seperation between Lucid dream and Obe seems hard to make, when you feel the separation process from your body and your conscious transfers from weakening to out of body without a loss of awareness, I guess then you could call it a OBE.
There is not reason to believe that Lucid dreaming is harmful.

Whether OBE and LD are different I do not know but i observed an interesting Phenomenon that also others have reported. after some dreams I just wake up immmediately in bed I kind of feel how the dream is slowly fading while laying in bed. But there are the "LDs" or maybe OBe's were I can feel i clear movement thru layers lasting for several seconds before I wake up "back" in my body. I wonder if these 2 kinds of LD's  maybe happen in different places (Brain vs Astral) Any thoughts appreciated!

"Energy is what you feel during "vibrations" and what is used to do telekinesis"

O.k. but why do you think the vibrations are a sign that the experience is real? One can also believe that the vibrations are caused by the neurons (although I do not believe so). Telekinesis ..well o.k. that is a proof against hallucination but how is that useful to test "Reality" of experience when out of body?

"Real is anything that directly affects at least 1 other real thing."

Following that definition a hallucination is real since it affects something real (your body).
My suggestion: real is something that exists independent from your brain. Well I dont know if that definition is that smart either since it is kind of circular as well....Confusing.....

"Most of us know what energy feels like, and that is definitely an OBE."

Do they? What do you mean with "energy"?

"How can we know if its only the firing of neurons in our brains with no input from astral OR if the info is in our brains but comes from astral OR if its our spirit experiencing something in astral and not in our brains at all? How to know if its real?"

Important question. Can you  define "real" ?

I started I thread sometime ago called "Proof" it has 6 pages of answers. It may contain some useful infos for you. I would suggest you search for it via the search engine and read it.
Tom

I tend to slip back into the dream as well, when I did not become completly lucid. Try to get completly lucid by touching the ground, looking at your hands and mentaly repeating that you are in a dream.

TradeMAAK: What works for me may not work for you. Maybe my method works better if one already was succesfull in inducing a LD. Because then you know you can do it. I forgot to mention that I praciced the dreamsign method in the beginning, which helped me get my first couple of lD. If you practice my method it is very important that the last thought in your mind before falling asleep is "I want a lucid dream". I usually try to remember the "feeling of beeing lucid" when doing that method. I think that helps as well.

After practicing LD for about 1 Year I found out that I have by far the most sucess by this simple methode:
When falling asleep I repeat in my mind "I want to have a LD"
If I do this in  the morning hours with enough intention I almost get a LD at will.
Looking for dreamsigns during the day doesn't seem to help me much.

quote:Originally posted by Chris

Tom,

Early in my own meditation and energy work I also would get frustrated at times. It would feel like I had progressed and accomplished something and then it would feel like that was it and I had hit a brick wall or my development had stopped. However, that was far from the truth. My feelings were a result of my own impatience, and lack of deep sensitivity to my own growth (mentally, emotionally, and physically).

Here's and example you would understand. When doing weight training or any other kind of training, it is necessary to allow periods of rest for your body to recuperate and assimilate everything you have done to it. The period of rest varies for each person and the amount of exertion or change induced by the work out. Without rest, your muscles will not heal and truly grow stronger.  In a similar sense think of your spiritual growth and awakening this way. For me it has ALWAYS been the case that I will grow in a quick spurt to a new level and then it will seemingly plateau (level off) for a period of time. That period of time ranges from a couple weeks to a few months. During that time that I have plateau'd my mind, energetic body, and other aspects of myself are still assimilating the growth I have just gone through. Additionally, experiences in my life and other factors are preparing me for my next jump. So, in reality, I am still growing, but just in other ways during that period. My growth has always continued like this.

So, I learned in time that I just had to ACCEPT who and what I am at any given time, and that I have my own appropriate rate or tolerance for growth. Acceptance is a very important thing. Without acceptance there can be no peace and without peace of mind your growth will also be inhibited. It's a semi catch 22. So, if there is any one suggestion I would offer you is to try and simply accept who you are for what you are and where you are at in your growth at any moment. Do not try to FORCE yourself to grow faster than you should. Try to find or feel where you are at and how much more you need to push to grow.  Yes, it is necessary to exert some force to grow, but too much force at the wrong time can be detrimental. So, on a personal level you need to feel out your limitations... know yourself... see yourself as clearly as possible and accept yourself. See the small changes as well as the large. Sometimes the small changes in you can be the most profound and meaningful to you later in life.

For example, perhaps you have not yet acheived conscious control of OBE. However, in one of your lucid dreams or spontaneous obe's you encounter a situation that teaches you a small important lesson about yourself. This small important lesson is about your personality and since you now clearly see this aspect of your personality it is easier for you to change it and so you do begin to change it. Six months later you are a little different person and since you changed that aspect of your personality, you meet the woman you are supposed to marry in this life. Without that change in your personality, she would not have been attracted to you.  

I used that example because it is something that happened to me and continues to happen. Some of my growth is in regard to the astral and control of my energy and focus, and other aspects of my growth (sometimes more important) have to do with who I am as a person.  One of the most important things I believe meditation and energy work can help a person to truly realize is that we are all connected. Love cannot truly be understood until you start to fully realize and experience that we are truly all connected. Doing energy work alone will help you to connect to subtle energies (your second body), and you will find yourself more easily knowing how people feel and sometimes what they think. This will make you a more empathetic person who is able to understand other people feelings better. Because you now understand their feelings better, you will tend to stop doing things you may have done before that hurt peoples feelings. You did not hurt their feelings on purpose... you hurt them because you did not realize the effect your actions had on them. But now that you can feel more empathy, you realize your mistake and change.

To me, this type of change is much more important than learning how to have OBE's at will. The OBE's are a by product of your growth and also a tool to help your growth... they are not the main purpose.

Chris,
Thanks for your detailed explanations. After beeing stock in my meditation the last couple of months  a made a significant progress last week. I'm much more able now to accept  a situation whatever it may be. i found that whenever a situation is unpleasant it provides a chance to grow cause it shows you a aspect of yourself that is limiting your freedom. I think the points you mentioned are very important and i now that meditation is exactly helping my with that. Being more aware of myself and how i interact with others. So therefore I have the impression that meditation and energy work kind of have similar effects. is that your opinion as well?
After all I must admitt that answer is kind of hard to swallow for me. cause I hoped for something like: "Yeah, do 6 months of energy work, and then I'll be able to livitate at will" to state it in an extrem way. I know that that isn't like a wise spirituell goal. But to be honest I'm still fascinated with the paranormal.  Well I assume You did consciously leave it up to myself, if I should do energy work or not. Maybe I'm just not mature enough to accept that answer.....[]

Cheers Tom

quote:Originally posted by Chris

Tom, I find your response sincere. The best way I can help you understand is relate some other experiences of mine. On several occasions when out of body and in the company of guides and higher beings I have asked them question after question. Their response to me has always been the same. They usually will give me a LITTLE BIT here and there to help me. However, they do not just spill everything out to me in one big mass for me to absorbe. Additionally, many times whether or not I receive the answers to certain questions depends upon my own true inner desire to seek it out and know it. In essence EASY answers or EASY information do not strengthen the mind of the individual. There is a reason why every piece of knowing is not just thrown about even if you can't see exactly why until after you have come to gain that knowledge.

I don't know if you are a teacher of some sort... but if you have ever spent anytime teaching anyone about anything of some depth you will understand you do not just throw all the information out at once, and you do not let the student guide the lesson with their questions. A teacher with insight guides the lesson as they see what the student is ready to receive. I do not mean you are my student, but truly we are are students of one another are we not?

Secondly, some knowledge and experiences are entrusted to me to be communicated to others in a responsible way. For example, let's say you were given some knowledge about how to create a bomb much more powerful than a nuclear bomb and you could build it with common household products (this is an extreme example). The people who gave you that knowledge gave it to you because they felt YOU were ready for it and would use it responsibly. However, someone comes along and says, "hey man would you tell me some stuff that you know about bombs?". You are unsure whether this person is ready and responsible enough to deal with some of the knowledge you were given so you say, "Well... I can tell you some principles I've learned about them.". Depending on how the person responds to certain small pieces of information you give them, the principles you understand, and as you get to know them you determine whether they are responseible, you will share more of what you know. Otherwise, you will be reluctant, because if the people who entrusted the information to you found out that you were just spewing information out that should not just be spewed out to anyone, they would STOP GIVING YOU information that YOU WANT from them. You would be acting unresponsibly and that would be detrimental to your own growth and search for truth. In this way I hope you can understand that I am careful with what I selectively will share with people. I will be honest in saying that there are only a very few people on this board I would share some of my higher experiences with.

Tom, you say you share your experiences with others. Do you share all of your experiences to just anyone? Have you had a lot of higher level experiences? If you yourself learn how to be more discreate in what you share with others, you will find more information given to you. This was one very important lesson I learned a few years back.

Those others here who have reached some of the higher levels of experience will also be reluctant to share some of their experiences publically... even in this type of forum. It's just part of the way it works. However, I encourage you to keep seeking and growing and what you need will come at the time you need it.

O.k. i think I getting it.[] And no I didn't have higher lever experiences (As far as I can remember[])
I have about one LD a week and I had 2 OBe's were I consciously experienced the exit. I had maybe 3 special experiences were i could experience "solving of all questions "as I would describe it. That's about it.
well, I wouldn't have any problems beeing your student you seem to be very responsible-minded.... And yeah as a matter of fact,  i teach quite often. I give alot of banjo lessons and physic private lessons as well as fitness instructions. You teach my how to OBE at will and i teach you how to Play Banjo like Earl Scruggs or lift 200 puonds[]

regarding my "stage of development"  and keeping in mind that I tend to get frustrated once i feel like I'm not progressing. what kind of adivice would you give. would you advise me to do energy work?
All the best Tom

Chris
I do agree with 99% of what you said. I maybe really missed the point a little, after all english is not my mother language.
But still I do not get what the big deal is about sharing some concrete experience related with energy work. Of course if you don't want to, that's fine with me.
I just don't see the big deal. People share their experiences they have with certain OBE exercises, I shared my experiences I had with LD. I Believe the more precise we share our experiences the better we can help each other reach our goals. I don't think it helps to mystify things, but maybe I'm missunderstanding you.
I honestly don't believe I need to do energy work to find truth, thats what I meditate for. Thats why I asked what effects energy work had for you, to help me decide whether I should do it or not.
My goals related to energy work would be more modest. does it help me with: having more LD, opening the thirth eye, having spontanous OBE?
I'm very well aware that you just can talk from your personnel experiences. Everybody needs the verify things for themselfs and thats what I will do. i take posts from other people as signs on the way, helping me to decide were to go. But in the end I have to go there and see for myself.
Anyways thanks for your help, Tom

Chris,

I think it's an important point to let expectations go. I do practice an hour meditation daily, I do this without any expectations. I just watch my breath and try to observe without to judge.
On the other side I must respeak you a little. I believe some expectations are needed to motivate myself. i need the expectation of having an OBE to motivate me doing OBE-exercises.
Same with energy work. If I can not expect certain things I just won't gather enough willpower and energy to do it. Since I'm heavy into meditation I need a good reason to find the extra time to work on my chakras as well.
Therefore I would really appreciate it if you could become a bit more concrete on what effects the energy work had for you. I will not expect the same effects but It would certainly inspire me.
Cause if I do not have any good reason to believe that energy work is worth the time, I simply won't do it.
Cheers Tom

Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Since you seem to have done a lot of Energy work you might help me with the following question.

In a lot of Yoga books as well was other sources is said, that stimulating the chakras leads to special abilities. For example raising of the kundalini, seeing spirituel beings with your phyical body, having enhanced sensory power, having more spontenous LD and OBE and so on.

Can you verify any of these things? Did stimulating chakras have other effects then strengthening your focus?

Cheers Tom

@Kazabadan: I do play a lot of magic as well. Of course I use a original deck. I mean how boring is that, to just copy someone's deck! One can't even be proud if one wins when playing with somebody elses deck!
My deck would crash these "champions decks" anyway, Hahahahaahahaahaaa
[}:)]

Hello Beavis

What do you mean by "I can't reproduce it"? You have no interest in doing so, or you would like to, but are not able to?

Cheers Tom

Good techniques coral1, I'll work on that. Thanks a lot!
BTW: You said  an LD is almost in the Astral, what did you mean? After all you describe the seperation feelings after the LD, which would point in the direction that a LD is not in the Astral. What's your view?

Loco: What people mean if they say an LD is the same as a OBE is that they believe both happen in the Astral. Of course an OBE is happening near the physical in a lower Astralplane. In contrast if you LD, your Astralbody is transfered into an Astraldreamscenery then you become lucid being in that "Area". The exit sensations would then be happening while you were asleep, therefor you wouldn't remember them.
But both experiences would be "Astraljourneys" and you could transform one into the other.The difference mainly being the conscious.
In the opposite one could also have the opinion, that LD and OBE are completely different experiences. For example using different  energetic bodies. Or one could also believe that Dreams are created in the brain while during OBE there's really something leaving the physical body.
Interestingly Rober Bruce as well as William Buhlman seem to have the opinion, that a LD is something quite different then an OBE/Astraltravel
Hope I made It clear...
Tom

Hey Jason

Interesting stuff! I read a book "The secret Life of Nature" were people describe that they see fairies, brownies, spirits and other creatures. Did you ever see something like that?

Thanks for the tips guys!! Maybe I really should try it like Andrew describes it. It's seems to really be a waste to end all these LD by force of will. Anyways it's really interessting how strong opinions differ whether LD and OBE are the same or something different. Whats your view on that matter?

Greetings Tom

Hey stephen! How do I get to the astralplanes?

Shaman: My point was that the fact "hey this is my interpretation" did not completly come across in your first posts. But I see now that you actually meant so, Never mind. And hey thanks for your prayer

Wisp: thanks for your explanations! What you're saying makes pretty much sense to me. I think we do agree. I just have problems if somebody says "thats how the world works, believe me" But I see now that you guys do not say so. Never mind

It's kind of hard to argue on the subject since it's very subjective. My point of view is about as follows:
I believe there are different kinds of dreams that have different sources. For example there are causes when people dream about a flood and the next day their house is washed away by a flood. Now clearly in that cause water didn't mean purity but simply what it was "a flood" So I believe that there are dreams that are, what they pretend to be, and they need no interpretation. I also believe that dreams can come from different planes and therefore may need different interpretations.
Also consider the fact that every body is unique I don't believe that we can interprete dreams on a general basis.
Now I believe that sometimes dreaminterpretation may be right and helpful , there may come the day when I ask you guys for help to interprete my dreams.
But I think it would be more correct to say: "look I would interprete this dream as follows. If you can relate to that great, but don't forget it's my interpretation"
I hope I made myself somehow clear, I don't always find the right words....

If you paint something( cloud, pyramid, circle, tree or something) I'll try to get it. Try to find something simple but unlikely to hit by chance.
Say when your ready and then I'll try within a week, o.k.?